The hyperbole of flag burning
Yes, there is a lot of drama over Matthis’ flag burning adventure last weekend. A good number of IVAW members oppose the utterly pointless demonstration by Matthis, Robyn Murray and Elaine Brower. You can hear Elaine Brower, whose Marine Corps son has completed at least three tours of the War Against Terror, screech “That’s what we think of this country!” while Matthis stomps on the burning flag in this video;
And yet, I’ll bet she’s still in the US this morning.
The third person in the video, Robyn Murray starred in one of our posts a couple of years back when she was captured in a video interview. Her only real complaint about her time in Iraq was the fact that she was 19.
One of the Austin, TX IVAW crowd, Bobby Whittenburg wrote a bit about the flag burning yesterday at his blog Veter(A)narchy using hyperbole as a weapon;
Matthis has received threats of violence, rape, and death. Such threats truly show the character of people loyal to the American flag and the American government.
Actually it does show character – I scoured your comments and couldn’t find not one threat of violence, rape or death in the several responses to the posts. I can’t imagine anyone threatening to rape Matthis in the first place and a threat is just childish any-damn-way without the opportunity to act on the threat. I think they’re disappointed that no one threatened them, so they make shit up to ratchet up the drama.
Personally, if I were a member of IVAW, I’d take a long look at myself in regards to the message that IVAW is trying to convey. It took them a year of waffling on Carl Webb before they finally tossed his punk ass to the curb. Geof Millard, the president of the board of directors wears unearned awards on his uniform. Jose Vasquez, the Executive Director of IRAQ VETERANS Against the War has never set foot outside of the US in uniform. Now Vasquez thinks his Puerto Rican heritage excuses his lack of an”affinity” for the US flag – irrespective of his years of service as an NCO in the US Army – and all of thospay checks he got. Vasquez replaced Alex Bacon, who went AWOL from the Coast Guard while stationed in Hawaii patrolling fisheries (no shit, really).
And then there’s Matthis who claimed for the longest time that he was an Afghanistan veteran when the only two places he’s ever been stationed is Japan and Germany. He claims he has PTSD from interviewing real combat veterans. He apologized to Malalai Joya for occupying the corner booth at Baskin Robbins on Bagram Air Base for six days.
There are countless examples of reasons to leave the dorks at IVAW behind. I’m thinking all of these doofuses are making money from their antics, why else would they work so hard at being caricatures of anti-war assholes? Folks like Bobby Whittenberg – an honest to goodness Purple Heart wearing hero – are being manipulated by the accolades he gets from cowards like Doug Zachary and Matthis Chiroux. And it’s a cryin’-ass shame that he doesn’t see it.
Category: Antiwar crowd, General Whackos, Iraq Veterans Against the War, Phony soldiers, Usual Suspects
Robyn Murray “I don’t follow orders blindly”. Oh really? But you follow the douche baggery of IVAW. What a twit
Some people simply have nothing in the lives worth considering, so they lash out at those who do.
I’d say it’s jealousy, plain and simple, combined with the inability to leave adolescence and become an adult.
They are adult children, acting out to get the attention they crave, because they have nothing of substance in their lives.
I’d pity them, but I don’t have the time or inclination to do that.
Any ideas on who might be paying these jabronis to behave in such a manner that truly espouses jackassery?
Fred, I’d bet that the money trail will eventually lead back to Soros, probably his loose change fund. He has no use for these douchebags either, but I’m sure he finds them entertaining. They feed his anti-American biases.
I think Tim hit it out of the ballpark, “inability to leave adolescence and become an adult”. It’s like the 2 year old who screams out loud in the restaurant, just to see what happens when he does it.
This Robyn chick is the biggest ingrate I can remember, and I am currently remembering most of 2008 and a good portion of 2007. It probably never crossed her pea brained mind that she was given the chance to learn and do so much. 30 years ago we barely got any range time, that way there was more time for what I contemptuously called “Blue Eyeshadow Class”. I never got within 100 yards of any kind of ordnance, be it arm or machine launched. There was still a lot of ‘free a Marine to fight’ mentality.
I tried (mostly) to at all times behave in a way that woud make it easier for the girls who came after me. If I had known a specimin like Robyn would be the result I would have gotten a lot more wild a lot more often.
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Wow, Carla, if what you say is true, the Marines must have really been behind the times. I was in the Army 30 years ago, actually joined 35 years ago, and there was NO such thing as Blue Eyeshadow Class. I did go through Women’s Army Corps (WAC) basic training – the very last cycle of it before it became obsolete – and by the time I hit AIT, which was MP school, I was Regular Army, the same as the guys. I did everything the guys did, was trained exactly the same as them, went to the range with them, out to the field with them, had the same responsibilities as them; there was NO differentiation at all, except for different PT standards, separate barracks, and differences in personal relationships and on a personal level overall. I don’t know about the rest of the Marine Corps, but the female Marines that the Army trained in MP school, MPI school, and CID school, did everything the same as the guys. In the Army, in my MP company in Germany, when we went out to the field, the females didn’t so much as have a separate field latrine area (there were too few of us); it was either use the guys’ (gross!), with very little privacy (guys apparently have no sense of privacy), or go further out in the woods with the, uh, entrenching tool. Fortunately, I grew up with three brothers, so I was already accustomed to the gross. The only thing I can think of where I was discriminated against as a female, was that as a female Special Agent in a CID office, my commander didn’t send the females (all two of us) to Ft. Irwin for desert training with the infantry units to provide investigative support (though not all of the guys went either; only those who wanted to). Frankly, I’m shocked to hear of what a cushy time you had of it in the Marine Corps. Maybe it’s an MOS thing. My personal conclusion after 8 years of the Army, by the time I got out… Read more »
Is Bobby Whittenberg another one of those Matthis type vets? Because he’s claiming a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart from Fallujah 2004. He is not a polite individual to attempt to hold a conversation with. Between his insults and attempted gay pick up lines, he basically sounded like a barely functional retard
Stacy, I have Whittenburg’s records and he does have a Purple Heart. If you see him claiming that he was awarded a Bronze Star,please let me know.
Robyn Murray is actually one of the more sensible IVAW folk. They’ve gone downhill since her interview.
It is true that Bobby can be very difficult to talk too, and is also quick to label me racist, xenophobe, etc etc. I will say that on both my tours in Iraq, even though I was Army, you got a Bronze Star when you got a Purple Heart. I’m not sure if it is the same way in the Marines. Also, even my paperwork is screwed up. My DD214 says I was deployed only once, which is false. But I am working on fixing that since I still have my orders from my first deployment.
I know of at least one real Iraq vet who, as of the 25th, said he was leaving IVAW over this incident. But now all I see are people claiming that the divisiveness is the problem with the organization. That if everyone stopped fighting and got along, it would help “the movement.”
The problem is that the public face of IVAW is a group of people who never served in Iraq, have more loyalty to the ISO, and don’t really give a damn about compromise when it comes to things like burning flags. They are actually planning a mass flag burning to show “solidarity” with Matthis.
I just don’t understand why people like AS keep fighting that faction for control of IVAW. Those folks have been in control for years and aren’t going anywhere. The only thing that can be done is for real Iraq vets to walk away so that when IVAW tries to have a function, if anyone asks where in Iraq they served there won’t be one person giving their group a single shred of legitimacy. …Well, there is Millard, but wearing awards you didn’t earn is pretty sketch.
I don’t know why you all put so much stock in a DD-214. My own DD-214 is not entirely correct either and I have never bothered getting it fixed. I wouldn’t mind getting it fixed, but my point is that just because a medal or something is missing from a DD-214 doesn’t mean that it wasn’t awarded.
Keep your eye on the ball folks. As a Director of the IVAW Matthis torched the flag of his country. That forced the IVAW to take a stand as an organization. The stand the IVAW has chosen is to fall in behind Matthis as a Flag burning organization. Now every member of IVAW, which includes some active duty personnel, who does not resign immediately assumes the responsibility and liability of such membership. Mr Vasquez may be the Executive Director of IVAW but Matthis is running the show.
Steel on target, Mr. Chiroux.
On the subject of inaccurate DD-214s:
One thing I have always been taught as a Soldier is to take the initiative. Granted, my ERB still has some minor inaccuracies, but for the most part I have it updated as soon as I have something to add to it. Once I separate from the service my DD-214 will be squared away; if it isn’t it will be a priority before I claim or wear any decorations I am entitled to. Maybe this is just me, but for all of these IVAW and other anti-war types one should think they would be willing to take action to back up the validity of any decoration or service they claim. The spotlight is on them, as this blog (and others) demonstrates time and again, and continually taking HEAT rounds over something that records do not substantiate would be detrimental to one’s cause, so I believe.
That said, I realize that all of us know in our hearts what we have done and are entitled to and that records and other paperwork are low on some servicemembers priority list. However, most of us are not seeking media attention for our “stories” while trying to make a political statement.
Yeah, I have to agree with that. Jose really is not in charge of much of anything.
fm2176, everytime I click on your link, I get to a US Army recruiting site and then I can’t get back to TAH through the Back button.
Anyway, I agree with you, of course, that people should take responsibility for making sure their paperwork is squared away. In my own case, I just never bothered because I got out many years after which I was a military spouse for a long time and full-time mother at home living a totally different life. At the time I got out, after I became a mother, all I wanted to do was forget I ever served in the US Army. So for a long time, I just blocked everything out. Now I am older and learning to integrate the various aspects of my past; still, I’d prefer not to care about any of that stuff.
I agree with you, however, that those who are in the spotlight should obviously take a different approach. I als agree with Mr. Chiroux that all the Active Duty as well as legitimate Iraq veterans should get out of IVAW right now. If necessary, re-organize in opposition.
Just a proposal, but I think we should refer to Matthis as either simply “Matthis” or “Matthis 0” (X is so 60s). We all know who the disappointment is and there is no further reason to embarrass his family or despoil the family name.
Just a thought.
I am truly confident when the dust settles everyone will be pleasantly surprised.
That said, Raissi, if it’s not someone I’m aware of, please point him my way? Resignations go through me anyway.
Oooo, sounds exciting! 😉
“I am truly confident when the dust settles everyone will be pleasantly surprised.”
Yeah, that’s what you said about Carl Webb, too.
And once again, Selena pops in to defend the actions of the indefensible. Bravo, Selena–bravo. You know, first steps and all that can be a real bitch, but once you’ve taken it, it can be a very enlightening journey. Take a step back from where you’re at, and look at IVAW from our perspective–you might be more than a little surprised how disgusting their actions really are to the average American and average veteran.
Debra, cushy is probably a relative word. Cushy compared to 60 days in the field, yes. Cushy compared to Air Force living arrangements, no. (Don’t hammer on me, I love the Air Force, my Dad was in!) We didn’t get to have all the fun the guys did, but we were definitely taught the proper Marine Corps attitude. There were a few Staff NCOs both male and female who provided great leadership, and I am a better person for it. All my employers after the Corps loved seeing it on my resume’ and many of the things I learned on active duty stood me in good stead in the civilian world My (now) husband was an MP where we were stationed in Hawaii, and there were a few females in his unit who got to do it all, but for the most part, if your MOS didn’t require it, you didn’t get to learn it, and entry into certain MOS fields was not open/discouraged to WMs. Please don’t misunderstand, I loved it and would do it again in a second if I had the 18 year old body to do it with. I ended up in Special Services as a WSI and Lifeguard because I had the certifications before I enlisted. It was a great job, but hauling in a drunken 250 pound Marine was not really what I would call cushy. And every little thing at CinCPAC was political and under the microscope. Given their past culture it wouldn’t surprise me if the Corps lagged a little behind in the open welcome of WMs, and I can understand how they would have felt that way and I don’t hold a grudge for it. And even though I resent the ‘Blue Eyeshadow Class’ I also get why. At that point in time the Marine Corps was trying very hard to integrate females and be PC in doing so. We were told toward the beginning of boot camp that we were not expected to stop being female so they must have wanted us to still look female. I don’t personally think… Read more »
I heard TAH is making things up again. I am not claiming, nor have I ever claimed to have a Bronze Star. I’m also not claiming to have been in Fallujah.
Stacy, the only time we’ve ever talked, you started the conversation with “You are a complete and utter douche.” Are you really surprised I wasn’t very pleasant in response?
Yo, Bobby–RIF: Reading Is Fundamental. Nobody associated with running this site accused you of having a Bronze Star. Or did Jonn’s post immediately below Stacy’s confuse you?
Not to get too far off the bunny trail here, but can anyone please tell me why someone who claims to be anti-war would join ROTC and then volunteer to enlist in an organization that…oh I don’t know…pretty much has ‘war’ as one of its primary fucking duties?
Claymore, I may be way off the chart with my opinion, but I think there are a few different types of people who voluntarily enlist in today’s entirely volunteer military after reviewing their DD 4/1 then decide they are suddenly “anti-war”. Those who served prior to 9/11 may have thought the military would be a free ride with some okay pay and free college but anyone who enlisted or reenlisted after Afghanistan and especially after Iraq kicked off knew they had a good chance of getting a nice all-expense paid vacation. Here is my opinion on the different types of volunteer servicemembers/anti-war jackasses: Those who serve honorably (whether or not they deploy), decide to leave the service, then miss the sense of belonging to something bigger and being “somebody”. Many of the media hounds seem to fit this category and shred the values of their respective service through statements and assumptions about things they know little or nothing about. Those who serve honorably, leave the service, then struggle with civilian life and blame their woes on their military service. I’d also group those who get disgruntled and embittered dealing with the VA or trying to collect veterans benefits into this category. Those who screw up in the military, get the boot or barely scrape by through their enlistment and blame everything on the military itself or on their experiences. I’ve seen very few screwups who could accept responsibility for their own actions. Those who actually do deploy, see some of the horrors of war and are abhorred by it (a valid reason, to me, but one which very few of the vocal IVAW types seem to have). Those who did not necessarily agree with the wars in the first place but joined the military anyway, be it for education money or a steady paycheck. Sadly, probably quite a few of these people are around, but most of them did their jobs, left the service (or even stayed in) and keep their mouths shut instead of seeking media attention. I know I missed some and above is only my layman’s opinion.… Read more »
Bobby Whittenberg said on Chiroux’s facebook page:
“That flag is, and always has been a symbol of hate and war. A anti-war veteran burned a symbol of war as a member of an (allegedly) anti-war organization at an anti-war rally. If some members can carry those filthy rags, others can burn them. If you aren’t going to be reasonable in your thinking, at least be fair in your application of standards.
March 25 at 12:00am · Report”
Carla, I enjoyed reading about your experiences in the Marines. Thank you for sharing. It doesn’t sound like it was really all that cushy overall, Blue Eyeshadow Class or not. (Honestly, Blue Eyeshadow Class? LOL…I can’t get over it. My MP training definitely did not include that…though I would have MUCH preferred Blue Eyeshadow Class over, say, being on the receiving end of learning how to do the choke hold during baton training…I had bruises on my neck for two weeks!) (Not to mentione my terrible throat infection!) I also had lots of great experiences in the military; it wasn’t all negative. I still remember so many of the guys and even communicate with some of them occasionally. I am learning to embrace the military part of me along with my feminine and maternal side (which I prefer). My military experience affected me profoundly and I am still coming to terms with that, but I especially came to realize how deep my affection for it also runs after recently returning to a military environment in a different capacity and finding that it feels more like home to me than I could have imagined. I do see young women in the military, both enlisted and officer, putting up impressive appearances, so I am assuming they like what they’re doing and it’s going well for them. The female pilots, especially, just blow me away. On the other hand, I still continue to see too much pregnancy among young enlisted who haven’t even been through all their training yet. I’ve never understood that, and I know that some create that situation to avoid deployment. I knew of one young Marine female, the daughter of a former co-worker of mine a few years ago when I worked at a university, who went into the Marines, promptly got pregnant, which kept her from deploying to Iraq, and then continued with two more pregnancies, one right after the other. Since I moved away, I never heard how it all turned out, but the last I saw her mother, she was starting to look rather ghostly with… Read more »
Personnaly, I think that if females join the military they should be forced to take some form of birth control. If they are not ready to be deployed they are a drag on their unit and should not be there.
Forcing females in the military to take birth control against their will would be a violation of individual rights and especially egregious to the rights of sexually inactive female soldiers. Birth control is not without health risks and side effects in many cases. Personally I have been opposed all my adult life to both the pill and the IUD from both a moral standpoint as well as health standpoint and it would simply be wrong to force something like that on a woman who rejects it.
Besides that, how do you “force” a woman to be on birth control? By forcibly aborting them if they get pregnant? That is barbaric enough when it’s done in secret or without a woman’s consent, and would be all the more so if it were the official approved policy.
That said, I completely agree with your main point that females who are not ready to be deployed are a drag on their unit and shouldn’t be there. I don’t know what the answer is other than simply discharging women if they get pregnant. But I think they already went down that road and rejected it.
JonP,
I would have been fine with that, I do remember that I inquired about having my tubes tied (there was no Norplant then) but I was patted on the head by the all-knowing Navy doc who told me that I didn’t really want to do that because all women will want to give birth at some point. Thirty years later he is still wrong.
Debra,
I believe a WM who does not take birth control while knowing their unit might be deploying is behaving at the height of irresponsibility. I’m not referring to accidents they do happen, but when you become pregnant on purpose before deployment it isn’t fair to the members of your unit who have to pull your weight, the designated childcare provider, and certainly not fair to the kid. If you want to enlist you have to make choices about the timeline of your priorities. Since we have an all volunteer military this shouldn’t be too difficult for the girls to understand. The situation isn’t for every girl, but it is a free will thing.
Abstinence works also.
Debra,
Of course abstinence is the best guarantee. Theoretically when dealing with an all military group that is supposed to be what is happening. In the eyes of the UCMJ it doesn’t even matter what gender two active duty people are if they are ‘sexually fraternizing’ because their isn’t supposed to BE ‘sexual fraternization’ going on within a pool of active duty service members except of course for the odd active duty married couple which was almost unheard of decades ago. (If the Corps found out you got married one of you got orders to another hemisphere within 60 days.) Even if only one half of the couple is active duty depending on the circumstances there could still be charges of adultery and behavior unbecoming. You won’t see that happening in the civilian world.
I was just addressing the all too realistic framework you described in your post. The reality is that a significant number of young adults are going to be sexually active. Although I certainly have an opinion about it, as long as it doesn’t violate the UCMJ I have no right to tell them which method of birth control to use. There are certainly moral issues here, but like my Mother always says “You can’t legislate morality.” And it would be REALY difficult to legislate morality to a bunch of hormones with feet, as many of enlistment/college age completely fit that description.
You have girls, so I would have to believe this kind of issue is of paramount importance to you. That alone says they probably get off on the right path. I have the luxury of being able to spay/neuter my Service Dog children and never have to lose sleep over how to approach ‘The Sex Talk’. I feel for you trying to raise good kids in the current society, but I believe as a parent you seem determined to do it in a way that works for your family. ATTAGIRL– Proves you are braver than I ever was.
Debra,
You know, Lilyea may complain we are hijacking his thread if we don’t quit………
Nah…I’ve never known Jonn to complain. It’s UpNorth and NHSparky who are constantly threatening to have my head… Later… (when I get off work…)
Getting back on topic, I’ve read FM’s assertions on the caliber of individual who joins the service and then comes to the conclusion that it wasn’t such a hot idea after all. Encapsulated, they are: The Joiner – Loves to be part of something, whatever that might be. Probably thought the camaraderie in the service would be cool, or that it would provide some missing component in their life (discipline, friendships, family, security, etc.). Often served honorably, with little-to-no drama, and toiled silently in the landscape doing their job. When they exited the service, they were dumped into a reality that didn’t offer much (not much call for a 13-Foxtrot in the civilian world there, sparky), and in fact, the world demanded they step up and provide for themselves all the things they had when they were in the service. I would imagine there’s a few in the Joiner category who are actually embarrassed by their more or less mundane service record (see all of Jonn’s various “Stolen Valor” jackasses). This is where I suppose that many fall into lure of the anti-war movement, a group of people who are willing to accept virtually anyone who’s worn a uniform as a method of gaining legitimacy. The Private Pyle – Shouldn’t have enlisted to begin with. Was a big bag of fuck before they showed up at the recruiter and that deficiency was only highlighted and exposed once they got in. Failure bred contempt, then anger and then needing someone to blame besides themselves. In the end, Bush and Cheney always screws over Private Pyle and the rest of us end up paying for his doughnut. The Scholar – Really only wanted to sit behind a desk for 2 years and then go to college so they could earn a degree and then sit behind a desk for the next 50 years. Money was an issue but Uncle Sugar was willing to foot the bill, so WTF…any moron can withstand a little physical hardship if there’s a pot of gold at the end of the digicam rainbow. Genius didn’t consider that… Read more »