Live blogging Winter Soldier II (Part IV)
Rules of Engagement part II – we’re warned of graphic language and graphic images.
Vincent Emmanuel (second from left in photo) complained that troops took “potshots” at “property, cars, people…I remember myself firing indiscriminately without knowing what I was shooting at…” “We punched, kicked and mistreated innocent Iraqis being released from interrogation” “It’s standard procedure to run over dead bodies in the road”
Sergio Kochergian (third from left in photo) Saw friends getting killed and blown up everyday. ROE changed from calling in suspicious activity to engaging armed non-Americans. ROE changed again to just kill anyone with a sack over their shoulder digging along the road. ROE changed again to individuals’ discretion. “I don’t know what’s going on over there, but I want to apologize to all of the people in Iraq”
Hart Viges (fourth from left) fired up an old lady carrying groceries. Butt-stroked people for no reason as a matter of policy. Beat a group of Iraqis for no apparent reason – as a matter of policy. Shot up cars for not obeying US troops at checkpoints – calls them innocents. Shot up the mayor of a village who didn’t obey traffic – squad members bragged about tight shot group on car window. Digging near roads got Iraqis killed (wonder why). “Not a public announcement of the policy – it was policy behind closed doors”.
Jason Lemieu (sp?) (fifth from left) Three tours. “ROE in Iraq is broadly defined and loosely enforced – anyone saying otherwise is either a fool or a liar”. ROE from commander: “Kill those who need to killed, save those that need to be saved”. Commander; everyone in a black headscarf is a legitimate target. “I can only guess at how many innocent people were killed”. Heard that one Marine refused to shoot a woman carrying groceries, so commander shot her.
Not the marines’ fault – extreme incompetence of leaders.
John Michael Turner (Burlington, VT – fourth from right) tears off medals and tosses them to loud applause from crowd. Showed videos of Marines celebrating effective use of firepower and pictures of destroyed buildings (nothing about casualties). Shot people with .50 cal. Troops had no respect for dead bodies as a matter of policy. Enjoys showing grotesque pictures that have nothing to do with the panel. “I shot a guy I call the fat man. When I didn’t kill him with the first round, I shot him again”. Was congratulated for first kill – was promised a four day pass if he could kill someone with a knife.
He has pictures of his confirmed kills (we’re up to number three – a man on bicycle). When reporters were embedded, ROE changed drastically – “by the book”. The implication is that the media isn’t getting the whole story.
Some blather about a bracelet and his “choking hand” which was somehow part of the ROE. Shows video of destroying a minaret “because we were angry and taking out our aggression”. “There are many more stories that I don’t have time to tell them all.” “I’m sorry for the hate and destruction I’ve inflicted on other people.” “I’m no longer the monster that I once was.”
Logan Laituri Army 82d Abn. Volunteered for Afghanistan. Went to Iraw w/1/14th INF 25th Infantry Div. from Hawaii. “Came to my faith and applied for Conscientous Objector status”. Claims he was infantry, but that his duty was that of Forward Observer in Iraq. Claims “no concrete ROE”. Didn’t know that Willy Pete couldn’t be used against personnel. Claims commander instructed that an unarmed dead body would be given a weapon – two troops charged with murder had charges dropped. Blames combat triage policy for death of an Iraqi. “I’m here because I love America”
James Gilligan (second from left) marines – no unit given. (Sorry I missed the story – we got jerked out for a minute and I missed it). Complains that Afghan police had a private weapons cache. His first sergeant threatened with a pistol a young Iraqi boy who’d hit an Iraqi girl. Stopped a scavenger and was ordered to make his vehicle inoperable. A picture of him in his boxer shorts in the desert (WTF?). Troops stole gold coins and made crank calls to wives of troops deployed. Claims he witnessed waterboarding (he might want to read the news ). “We ignored procedures”.
Garret Reppenhagen (1st on left) 2/63 Armor “Scout Sniper”. Killed two unarmed guys with .50 cal. for being out after curfew. Claims used 40mm on personnel, too. Claims was never clear on ROE for entire tour. Claims all headquarters pogues are derelicts – “thrown out of their units”. An inexperienced intel major commanded his security detail to shoot a couple of civilian vehicles who turned out to be body guards of a deputy minister. “This kind of confusion goes on every day in Iraq”. “The war is the atrocity”.
Videos from Iraqis inserted here with subtitles – I’m sure whoever took the videos were looking for good stories about the troops from among the millions of Iraqis and not just a few disgruntled civilians.
That’s going to do it for me – but Thus Spake Ortner plans on blogging some tomorrow and Sunday so keep your eye on him this weekend. Tomorrow I’m going to the rally for troops on the National Mall, so look for pictures and videos tomorrow night.
Thank you note: Thanks to all of you for your attention today. And thanks to those numerous other bloggers who sent you here. You’re all in my blogroll – you all rock.
Category: Antiwar crowd, Iraq Veterans Against the War, Politics, Protests/Rallies, Winter Soldier II Live blogging
John,
Thanks for sticking up for us active duty guys. Slurs like this hurt our mission and could affect morale. They don’t to me and the majority of our guys. Simply put, I see this nonsense as lies. None of the stories sound accurate. I can speak firsthand only about one Sailor that I knew who went to the media. Great at his operational job, but one of the worst Sailors Navy-wise that we had in our rating. And I saw him on 60 Minutes ranting. So I don’t place much credence with this new set of bozos. Thanks again for your service, then and now.
Good job today John, thanks!
Incredible job you’re doing there Jonn! Great pics too. I look forward to reading more. Next time you see Garrett Reppenhagen ask him about painting “Bush Sucks” in arabic on his humvee… Keep up the great work. How many people attending??
TSO and I figured there were about 500 inside the WSII and about 120 GOE/EU outside. There were probably 100 IVAW-aged people inside WSII.
I’m pretty crispy after about nine hours of this stuff, so excuse me if I don’t come back often tonight.
So how many sat up there and admitted they comitted war crimes on their own? Look for the arrest warrents next week. Short trial with they’re admissions and 25 to life in Ks, not down the rabbit hole. Dorthy don’t live there anymore. If we had a DOD or DOJ they would pick them up as they leave their little poor old me show and tell. One thing for sure, they’re democrats as they lie so well.
They truly do make me feel sick to my stomach.
Jonn,
You are doing a magnificent job! Thanks doesn’t even begin….
Denis
Thanks for the yeoman’s work John, those of us out here in the conservative blogosphere really appreciate it. BTW, thanks for stopping by my place via technorati and I am urging my readers to send their thanks as well. I see Gayle already has and beat me to it, LOL. I look forward to seeing these turds debunked or tried for their crimes if found to be true. They sound like Scott Thomas Beauchamp waanabes, anybody that follows the war knows that running over dead bodies is a nono since the terrorists like to boobytrap them with explosives so there is one debunked along with shooting guys digging holes roadside at night, oh just burying IEDs.
just wanted to clarify: never claimed infantry, only that i was assigned to infantry, (as FOs are). 2nd, triage was related to an American death, not iraqi. also, FO is not a ‘duty’ it is an MOS (13F) – “military occupational specialty”. finally, the charges of premeditated murder were not dropped to my knowledge. best of luck with the rest of the event!
Thanks for clearing that up, Logan. It’s a little harder than I thought to listen while I’m typing.
Thank you, John. Nothing may ever come from this, but you have served your country well. I’ll see you tomorrow. You ARE, and the Sniper, TRUE AMERICANS. Hoowah! Airborne! Truly, Thank You.
trust me, its just as hard for me to keep up with my own thoughts, the sniper noticed how fast i talk… hope you have an informative and pleasant time blogging on WS.
Logan,
Sgt. Evan Vela was convicted of murder without premeditation, making a false official statement and of conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline. He was sentenced to ten years in prison. He will forfeit all pay and allowances, and will receive a dishonorable discharge. On the home front, his family is totally wiped out financially from the legal fees.
Saying that charges were dropped, or implying that the military doesn’t prosecute soldiers or Marines is either incredibly careless or just plain dishonest.
BTW, a third Marine is about to be charged for murder in Fallujah. He’s faced with the nearly impossible task of raising more than a hundred thousand dollars for legal representation.
David Allender
HOOAH, Jonn! Great job.
As evidenced by the idiotic, shameful behavior on the part of the children on the ‘panel’, they’re a group of miscreants who either fucked up in their units or were kicked out of the military. Either way, it’s obvious they blame their own screwups and guilt trips on “the chain of command”.
Note to Eric:
A lot of us on here (like myself)have been to Iraq. We know you’re doing a fantastic job. Don’t let these little punks with an ax to grind, demoralize you. You have our support 110%.
Duty, Honor, Country
SFC MAC
(GI JANE)
Jonn,
Outstanding job. There should be hardship pay just for being in the People’s Republic of Montgomery, but this is double duty.
Thanks.
david, i never knew a SGT Vela. not sure if you thought he was in my unit, or…
SFC Mac; your attempt to demean other panelists is neither professional nor respectful. if you would like, you can request a copy of my last completed NCOER, as well as my DD214 from the verification team. i hope you find a more productive and responsible outlet for your frustration than a comment roll on someone’s blog.
i also find it curious; this idea that speaking against war demoralizes troops. frankly, i have more trust in our military, that they are all fully capable, mature, responsible adults who are more than able to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions about this conflict. to think anything less (that our own personal accounts are able to ‘brainwash’ them into dissent) is the epitome of deception and a direct insult to their professionalism and honor.
i also find it curious; this idea that speaking against war demoralizes troops.
Logan, speaking against the war is every American’s Constitutinal right should they choose to do so. Lying about the effort and painting our guys as Genghis Khans, on the other hand, is more than worrisome.
you can check my testimony if you like, especially my preface and final quote by MLK. i did not lie, nor did i paint anyone as anything but honorable and judicious. when you find the first site to post my audio or transcript, let me know, i am curious to hear myself, apparently i spoke exceedingly fast (not hard to believe, just want know exactly how poorly i spat out words). and again, curious silence in response to my actual comment that you quoted (speaking against war somehow = demoralizes troops…?). read the rest and, please, respond in full.
Logan,
I searched for your testimony, but gave up in the drone of your co-presenters. Everything you said up there could have been true (I will accept your assertion) and you could have painted us in an honest light, and I would still think you a fool. Your mere presence on such a panel makes you an useful idiot for these other tools. God bless you, but I also find your Con. Obj. status highly questionable and convenient. The two Sailors I knew who got it, left the Navy after getting bored. This was after more than 100,000 dollars worth of training. Gimme a break. . . You are being used, son.
Logan,
I was relying on a summary and will need to read your speech in full.
My point was that troops have, in fact, been prosecuted, and are serving time, for actions that you and your co-panelists are describing. I have not heard your side acknowledge this fact. I assume you don’t because legal prosecutions undermines your contention that the military leadership is condoning crimes of war.
And what exactly is your point-of-view about the criminal prosecutions of troops? If you believe the real criminals are the policy makers, why isn’t your side doing anything to help defend the Haditha Marines, et. al.?
David
Hey logan,
Newsflash, sweetpea: You’re talking to a former Soldier and Iraq War veteran who knows candyasses like you were nothing more than problem children.
The IVAW brings shame on themselves in an attempt to drag all veterans into the gutter of their anti-military/anti-war ‘activism’. They abuse their status as “veterans” for the purpose of bad-mouthing the WOT as well as the country.
They feed the maws of radical groups like Code Pink, A.N.S.W.E.R., and MoveOn.org, and serve as a propaganda tool for Islamofascists who don’t like the fact we struck back and are erradicating them on their own turf.
Most veterans will defy your bullshit.
The Left loves to tout groups like the IVAW as if they are ‘heros’ bucking the system, when in reality, there’s no honor or bravery in collaborating and joining ranks with an organization of traitorous malcontents.
Logan,
Don’t waste your time getting into it with these people. First they call you a fraud. Then you prove your service and commendations and you’re accused of lying about your combat experience. Then you prove that with substantiating witnesses, video evidence and corroborating media accounts. They’ll then rebut with the “isolated incident” scam and tell you you’re being used by “the Left”, at best, or you suffer the ad hominem screeches of “traitor”, “commie” and so forth. You can’t win with them, but you don’t have to. Better to focus your efforts on the mainstream American media and undermine your right-wing critics by disseminating far and wide the language and tactics used against you by the Gathering of Eagles, Eagles Up! and their comrades-in-violence; they brook no hesitation about committing assaults on-camera or using filthy, demeaning language (see G.I. Jane above). These people are their own worst enemies and any reasonable American can see that.
– Skull Soldier
So you’ve been here before, Skull? Is that how you get treated on my blog? If, I’m not mistaken, this is the first time you’ve been here – but since you came here looking for a fight, you’re going to paint with a broad brush and be bigoted.
Usually, I don’t treat visitors like assholes until they act like one – you’re dangerously close.
If you have something you want to discuss, please do so, but keep your urban legends and faerie tales to yourself.
I would have loved to be there and just ask some basic questions, like time and date incidents happened, was it reported to the chain of command and what did the chain of command do about it, if you participated in these actions do you know that you can still be charged under the UCMJ even after leaving the service for any unlawful action/s conducted while on active duty, ahh so many questions but of course why would they listen? that is the reason they are not in the military anymore. last question did you VOLUNTEER? you know you don’t have to, right?
Sorry, Jonn, I should be more specific. You should be excluded from the rubric of “these people”. I meant more specifically every member of the Gathering of Eagles and Eagles Up! with whom I’ve ever spoken, “Cao” of Cao’s Blog, Skye of Midnight Blue and several other self-declared “mil-bloggers”, many of whom have never served their country in uniform as you and I have.
Well, Skull. Yes indeed, There are alot of GOE/EU people that have served and have family serving so go on and get off that pedestal now, won’t you?
Hmm. Skull.
You wouldn’t be the soldier who was up in arms about Rush Limbaugh and the Jesse McBeth phony soldier thing and claiming he called someone with a TBI a fake. Wish I could remeber the name of that guy.
My qustion to all of the IVAW’s is why the hell didn’t they all apply for CO status? You know, when people sign up now, the big picture is self-evident, isn’t it? There is a better than 50/50 chance one will get to the Iraq/Afghan theaters.
And, we all know that the best laid plans can fail. We all know there will be people with an axe to grind somewhere. But to paint the majority as baby killers, rapists and pillagers is just wrong. You are putting yourself in the Jonh Cary league and acting holier-than-thou because “you” realized the error of the actions precipitated by the cirecumstances? Is that really how IVAW wants to absolve themselves of behaviors that were certainly influenced by the winds of war? Sorry, but that is no way to deal with the things that happened over there. And when they go to bed at night, does blaming an imcompetent set of leaders take all the pain away? No. The key is to forgive yourselves and move forward. IVAW people are stuck on that and need to move forward. What is the action of testifying actually doing? Is it therapy for them? Fine.
In the end, the only question is: What would leaving do to the progress made for the Iraqi’s? Have you denied progress is occurring? In that case, then I would hesitate to believe a single word of the IVAW testimony as sincere. Rather, I would view it as self-serving horsehit and the IVAW only wanting to help themselves, rather than the iraqi’s they claim to be sorry for.
You did such a great job over the whole weekend, I’m really proud of you. I love the new look you’ve gotten for your site. I wouldn’t pay too much attention to the…um…desenters?…they are not wrapped too tight anyway. No, I’ve never served in uniform. That is because I couldn’t pass the physical due to my left eye. So shut up, ‘people’, about who has the right to speak and who does not. I am American, and THAT gives me the right. Actually, it’s God, but I know you don’t want to go there because I’ll whoop there too! LOL. Have a great week, Jonn. 😉
Logan, you mentioned a verification team. I scoured the sites over the weekend to get info on the verification process*, but came up empty. I have the impression that it is quite
comprehensive; I just don’t know how it works.
I believe that public disclosure of the verification process is good for all who are honestly concerned, regardless of political persuasion. I would appreciate a link or anything else you (or anyone else) can provide for me. Thanks.
I appreciate your service, and I respect your right to speak about it.
*I’m referring to verification of identification and
service records, but would certainly be interested in other
aspects of the team’s work.
I don’t think it’s fair to lump veterans speaking about their experiences in with people who exploit veterans for their own partisan motives.
At any rate, it sucks to see veterans go at each other’s throats like this.
Winter Soldier 2008 Panel Verification:
http://tinyurl.com/yq8vyc
Washington Independent
“That’s where Vasquez’s verification process comes in. First, the group will keep on file in its Philadelphia national office a copy of each testifier’s military service record, known as a DD-214 form. After interviewing the potential testifier, Vasquez’s committee—made up of a team of twelve veterans around the country—will reach out to members of his or her unit for corroboration. A network of journalists currently in Iraq will reach out to Iraqi civilians in the relevant cities and towns for independent eyewitness accounts. Finally, IVAW will file Freedom of Information Act requests with the Pentagon for relevant corroborating or refuting information, assisted by a task force of the National Lawyers Guild to expedite the process. “We’re laying our credibility on the line,” Vasquez acknowledged.”
So far, the above is the best statement I can find about this. I think it would be in the interest of the IVAW to provide an official statement which is easily accessible to interested persons.
By the way, I agree with Ben’s comment. I also believe that
the general public’s perception of panel members’ credibility is diminished, not enhanced, by the political opinion statements which most of them include in closing.
Skull Soldier Says:
March 16th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Logan,
…filthy, demeaning language (see G.I. Jane above). These people are their own worst enemies and any reasonable American can see that.
Filthy and demeaning? You mean like the IVAW and the other anti-war, pro terrorist boors you associate with? Truth hurts, doesn’t it?
For you and your ilk to denigrate those who believe in the WOT; who back up their dedication with continued service, and by attempting to use them as propaganda fodder for your anti-war machinations, is the epitome of hubris.
I’ve seen the people you call ‘friends’. Talk about filthy.