USAF “Honors” A1C Spencer Stone – With a Noncombat Decoration
We all know that two American military personnel – A1C Spencer Stone and SPC Alek Skarlatos, Oregon ARNG – along with a civilian friend, Anthony Sadler recently were instrumental in stopping a terrorist massacre on a French train. Specifically, they disarmed a terrorist armed with an AK-47, a pistol, and a box cutter who was threatening passengers on the train.
Well, the USAF has announced that they will honor A1C Stone. They’re going to give him the Airman’s Medal – a NONCOMBAT decoration.
In the words of Max the Volkswagon: “Dat’s . . . kool.”
Don’t get me wrong. Yes, the Airman’s Medal is a high honor. But to me, even though it’s a high honor it seems completely inappropriate for this situation. The USAF should know that.
The criteria for the Airman’s Medal is that it may be awarded “to any member of the Armed Forces of the United States or of a friendly nation who, while serving in any capacity with the United States Air Force … distinguished himself or herself by a heroic act, usually at the voluntary risk of his or her life but not involving actual combat.”
So, here we have an Airman who engaged an armed enemy in hand-to-hand combat, during a time at which said armed enemy was attempting to attack friendlies. And yes, I do mean “armed enemy”; we’re still fighting terrorists and terrorism worldwide today.
But to recognize the Airman involved for his heroism in doing that, the USAF is going to give him a decoration for noncombat heroism.
Category: "Teh Stoopid", Air Force, Real Soldiers
It wasn’t combat… why, it was nothing more than simple workplace violence. Sigh.
I thought the young man with the AK was just soliciting donations for his mosque.
Perhaps for a new set of bunk beds in the goat lovers room.
p.s Bernasty you was a great day and remember to smile for the judge.
Ok, evidently I’m a little short of the runway today (hehe… what’s going on with Bernath?
D-Day, day two of three in court.
Most important: was he wearing those dogleg canes of his?
Like everyone else, you will have to permit the court and due process to run its course.
Everyone is entitled to their days, weeks and months in court.
I’d say he’s had way more days in court than he deserves.
Time to pull the plug on his little freak show.
From the legal department:
Due to significant ongoing litigation, please keep all comments regarding Mr. Bernath to the facts (actual provable rather than opinions that are so clear they should be facts). Commenters here, justifiably do not like him, but a jury may or may not have our sensibilities.
His California bar disciplinary hearing is ongoing and I am sure the results will be posted here as soon as the court has rendered its verdict. From the docket entries, it should be interesting.
Tease…
Can you give me a link to access that please? Thank you.
Never mind…I found it.
The perp didn’t even want to commit a terrorist act. He only wanted to rob them.
(sarcasm)
Thy just need a 15 Dollar an hour burger flipping Job
I’m sure they’re doing that so as not to “offend” any more radical muslims. After all, we’re doing that just by living freely and enjoying life!
As a retired Air Force enlisted medic, I am I think Stone’s actions were epic. That being said, folks pleases don’t beat me up over this, but I think this is the right call. The biggest factor is that he was on leave status when the incident occurred. I guess we’d have to ask Doug Sterner, but does anyone know of a time when someone earned a SSM or service cross on leave staitus? As an enlisted medic, that Airman’s Medal will stil give him rock star status. In my 21 years I only met one medic with one. (That guy ran into the burning wreckage of a plane that crashed next to field to where he was playing softball and pulled out two survivors.) The only area he would be missing out on is that the medal is promotion points. The Airman’s Medal is worth 5 points compared SSM 9 points and AFC 11 points. But with the enlisted promotion system that puts the emphasis on CC recommendation, I think he’ll be okay.
NCO, certainly not jumping on a well thought out opinion, but let’s use another scenario. PVT Jones is on leave during WWII and enjoying coffee in a sidewalk cafe’ in Paris. A Nazi who had remained hidden, starts shooting up the place. He subdues the attacker, only killing him, like these guys should have done. Would he not be afforded a combat decoration? Now had the guy been a bank robber I agree with you, but he was the enemy, and if charging an AK ain’t combat, I don’t know what is. I think the AF isn’t thinking this out. The medal they are awarding is a great one. Never got the Soldiers Medal, but a Helo Jockey buddy of mine got one in Vietnam, though he swears there was enemy fire, it’s still an honor. I think the guy who was wounded deserves the Purple Heart, if he was a service member, but I’m sure my MOPH will disagree with me as they usually do.
Dude really. You are trying to compare a soldier on leave in a war zone during WWII to a airman on leave in Europe during a time when there is no longer an official war being waged. The kids getting a noncombat medal because he wasn’t in combat
Steve says, “in Europe during a time when there is no longer an official war being waged”.
I says, “if you believe there is no official war being waged, I might suggested you read the news”.
Show me where the US Congress has declared war on a sovereign nation. The combat operations in Afghanistan were declared over by the administration and by the military. I’m not saying that there is no combat or fighting going on there special ed I said no officially declared war in Europe.
Staff Sergeant James Goins was awarded a Purple Heart when he was injured in the LaBelle Disco bombing on April 5, 1986. While he was clubbing on a night off in civilian clothes. SSG Goins ultimately died from his wounds but he received a combat award.
Yep. Externally-sponsored terrorism, perpetrated by terrorists acting on behalf of a power hostile to the US in an allied country. Sound familiar?
Ten days later: Operation El Dorado Canyon. The POTUS at the time had both guts and the will to act.
My CO when I was at Drum got a Purple Heart in that bombing.
I think somewhere around 40 Soldiers got Purple Hearts from disco bombing.
The enemy was armed with an AK-47 and box cutter. All three Americans involved were injured in the course of defeating this enemy. Sounds like combat to me.
Don’t forget he had a 9mm also.
Little Stevie, that’s SIR to you, dude for your friends, if you have any. Oh, fuck you. Do practice your reading and comprehension skills.
I’ve earned the right to say dude to whomever I want there bubba. I responded because your analogy was flawed and thoroughly fucked. By the way just because I don’t have my ERB in my name on a blog don’t assume shit
All the Way
You argument is sound about these men and the “enemy” but there is another side to it. What is the enemy these days? To many, it is has become the criminal element.
By the same premise, if an African-American Soldier is walking down the street in uniform and is attacked and beaten by a group of racist rednecks, does he get a PH?
Conversely, an white Sailor leaves the shipyard in Anacostia, in uniform, to go get a burger around the corner and is attacked and beaten by a predominantly African-American or Hispanic gang, does he get a PH?
Furthermore, if a AF servicewoman is attacked in uniform while leaving Andrews AFB and sexually assaulted by a man of Middle Eastern descent (who is a third generation American), does she get a PH?
I really do not have an answer as I seldom agree with MOPH on many issues, but these are examples that have merit.
What could be next? PTSD?
In the two cases you posit, no PH would be apropos. Both of those are clearly criminal acts performed by racist a-holes, and involve no declared “enemy of the United States”.
Change either of those such that the violence is done by a terrorist individual or group associated with ISIS/al Qaeda/other terrorist group that we’re fighting today, and the answer becomes yes.
The attack in France was hardly street crime. It was clearly an attempted terrorist attack.
I agree with you about the attack in France. No issue there. Though the AF personnel on here brought up some points I did not consider.
But what I am pointing out is that the criteria for the medal (PH) is becoming quite loose based on many different opinions.
Now, what if in the above examples listed, the “criminals” shouted “Death to America” or “Down with the military” for whatever reason? Maybe they are still blaming Bush for their lot in life. Who knows?
My point is that with the battlefield lines being blurred and the battlefield eventually becoming our backyard, the lines for criteria of who exactly the enemy is are becoming confusing. Especially from varying points of view.
One more point, if what was illustrated above occurs, could these people be then considered “Domestic Terrorists?”
Good question. History argues both ways. Recently (and generally, as I recall), a link to some foreign enemy of the US has been required. However, in the past military victims of Puerto Rican separatists have also received the PH in conjunction with terrorist attacks carried out by said separatists.
As I said below: this one was easy to sort out. The next one might not be.
Agreed. Key becomes whether the act was perpetrated by an enemy of the US or a criminal.
You’re also correct in saying it won’t always be easy to sort out. This one is; next one might not be.
Does the Air Farce EVER think anything out? You damned right it was combat with an enemy, get some of those panty waist fruitcakes off the board that decided this and put some REAL MEN IN THERE!
No argument that the Airman’s Medal is a high honor, and it will indeed flag the guy as a hero.
Regarding the “leave status” question: completely irrelevant. A member of the military is on-duty 24/7/365. Leave and pass are merely designated off-duty times wherein no specific duties are prescribed and the individual is free – within limits – to do what they please. They’re still bound by the UCMJ and expected to act like Soldiers/Sailors/Airmen/Marines (SSAM).
The fact of the matter is that combat in the GWOT is worldwide. As Nidal, the recent incidents in Chattanooga, and other incidents in CONUS and elsewhere have shown, there is no defined “combat zone” to which hostilities are restricted. This was an incident wherein two unarmed members of the military and one unarmed US civilian citizen unexpectedly faced an armed terrorist enemy intent on attacking friendlies – and overcame that enemy in hand-to-hand combat. It was most definitely a hostile incident.
Here, the Airman’s Medal – while a high incident – is not apropos. It is awarded for NONCOMBAT heroism. This was clearly terrorist incident, and thus was a hostile attack on US and friendly personnel. It should be recognized as such.
The Airman’s Medal is about the equivalent of a “peacetime” Silver Star, is it not?
Or “noncombat” rather.
Can’t speak for the USAF (haven’t specifically looked at their award reg today), but the Army reg says that the corresponding Army award (Soldier’s Medal) requires heroism equal to or greater than that necessary for award of the Distinguished Flying Cross, actually. However, that’s also irrelevant.
Both the Airman’s and Soldier’s Medals are presented only for NONCOMBAT heroism. Thwarting an attack by an armed terrorist via hand-to-hand combat hardly qualifies as “noncombat” heroism. Thus, either the Airman’s or Soldier’s Medal is inappropriate.
Thanks.
Agree with Hondo.
The “G” in GWOT medal does stand for “Global” after all…
Right on Hondo!!!
You not alone. As another for the resident ret. USAF person here, I also think this may have been the right call. He was on leave, it wasn’t a declared war/hostile fire zone, and he wasn’t ‘engaged with military operations’. One needs to check the award criteria for the higher level medals before questioning the reasoning behind this call. Most of them, the Silver Star and AF Cross for example, all have ‘while engaging in military operations’ as appart of the award criteria. Not sure how that may play with also earning a PH though,because he certianly deserves one as well, but this was probably the right call.
Another example. A sailor is on leave in Honolulu and on the morning of 7 December finds himself in the middle of the Japanese attack. he is on leave, it wasn’t a declared hostile/war zone. He picks up a discarded machine gun and downs a Japanese Zero. Does this ‘on leave’ sailor deserve a combat medal or not?
Moot point.
And look at the numbers of Medals of Honor, Navy Crosses, etc, awarded for actions that day.
While I think he should be awarded a combat medal (along with a PH), TPTB have spoken.
I certainly wouldn’t turn it down if it were me.
He might actually end up better off with the Airman’s Medal than the Silver Star. Per 10 USC 12739: If a person entitled to retired pay under this chapter has been credited by the Secretary concerned with extraordinary heroism in the line of duty and if the highest grade held satisfactorily by that person at any time in the armed forces is an enlisted grade, the person’s retired pay shall be increased by 10 percent of the amount determined under subsection (a). The Secretary’s determination as to extraordinary heroism is conclusive for all purposes. My understanding is that the heroism mentioned above is considered to be equivalent to that of the award of a service cross, so an Airman’s (or Soldier’s or Navy and Marine Corps) Medal can be considered-given that it is a “peacetime” award, but a Silver Star cannot because it is a wartime only award.
See AR 600-8-22 paragraph 1-40, subparagraph a.
Looks like in the USAF, there may be no difference. See para 1.6.2.2. of AFI36-2803. For USAF enlisted personnel, apparently a 10% boost in retired pay is also authorized for the Silver Star if the AF Awards Board so decides.
I have no idea why there’s a difference between the two services, but it does seem to be there.
I have no idea why there’s a difference between the two services, but it does seem to be there.
Yeah, that’s kind of weird. Still, you learn something new every day.
Same here. I didn’t know that before an hour or so ago either.
It is strange since the air farce is the afterbirth of the army!
Hmmm Purple Hearts for soldiers at FT Hood, is this really any different.
Not that I can see.
A couple of my tours in Germany were back when the RAF and Bader Meinhof were running around bombing US facilities, ie Ramstein AFB and Officer’s Clun at V Corps HQ. Don’t recall any PH being handed out (or even expected) back then despite evidence of East German backing for Bader Meinhof.
http://www.nytimes.com/1985/08/09/world/car-bomb-kills-2-on-a-us-air-base-in-west-germany.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/01/baader-meinhof-gang-founder-stasi
CC Senor,
The USAF actually did award the PH to the two service members killed and the near 25 wounded.
Here’s a link that lists the Army folks awarded the PH for that incident and other incidents in Germany during the period.
https://books.google.com/books?id=GaeGAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=Purple+Heart+Baader+Meinhof&source=bl&ots=kq1B8Y2v5P&sig=LRlcbe9mO9P-ioCk4JPTZF386vs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAGoVChMI5oHNqaDHxwIVBLKUCh3SCgYs#v=onepage&q=Purple%20Heart%20Baader%20Meinhof&f=false
Yep. PH has been authorized for terrorist attacks since 1973 or 1974 if memory serves.
Thanks for the link. I wasn’t aware any PH had been awarded, probably because the awards were years after the event. Still remember a lot of those events and was surprised that there wasn’t any mention of the Campbell Barracks bombing. Kind of like with Kobar Towers, never a mention of the OPM bombing in Riyadh in Nov ’95.
It was the 80’s, lots of stuff went down, it just wasn’t as public as today.
Huge difference between uniformed soldiers on duty on base being specifically targeted and targeted civilians, some of whom turn out to be members of the US military forces. No reason at all to believe that these service members were targeted. It is much more likely that a presumed unarmed and untrained civilian population was the target.
Don’t see much of a difference, OWB, if it’s done by an enemy of the USA.
Whether a bullet is aimed at you personally or is fired by an enemy who doesn’t even know you’re there matters little. It’s still lethal. And it’s still an enemy action.
Point of order; this particular individual was an enemy of France, inasmuch as he was in France attacking French civilians. US military guys just happened to be here, unfortunately for him.
These men were not there in any official capacity and it was not a combat operation. I think a non-combat award is completely appropriate.
Um, no. They were in France conducting a terrorist attack. The train was going to another nation (either the Netherlands or Belgium). Given the EU’s open borders these days, there were guaranteed to be citizens of multiple countries on that train. So the “enemy of France” argument is specious; the terrorist bastard neither knew nor cared about the nationality of his intended victims. All he cared about was conducting an attack.
The LaBell Disco and TWA 847 incidents were both nonmilitary operations, occurred outside a hostile fire zone, and occurred during a period of other than declared war. In each case, BSMs and PHs were awarded. So the “not in an official military capacity” argument similarly lacks merit based on past history.
After they subdued Achmed and skull thumped him a few times, they should have offered him a job.
No, they should have stuck the ak up his ass and pulled the trigger!!
Some news reports state that his ARNG partner will get a Soldiers Medal as well.
If Stone gets a PH, will the Airmans Medal and Soldiers Medal be swapped out for more appropriate awards? Two sets of criteria as has already been pointed out – noncombat heroism vs armed enemy combatant….
I believe they should be. This is clearly an action against an armed enemy combatant, in my book. (Former USAF here, FWIW.)
FWIW the Army is indicating that they will be looking at the Soldier’s Medal for SPC Skarlatos.
In my mind this is totally inappropriate, for a number of reasons.
1. The individuals should both be authorized Hostile Fire Pay for the month of August, IAW the provisions of the DOD Financial Management Regulation Volume 7a, Chapter 10 (Page 10-3). The Senior Defense Official/Defense Attache at the US Embassy in Paris is the “local commander” with a duty to ensure that this action is processed thru DFAS.
2. Now that the French have categorized the incident as international terrorism, A1C Stone clearly meets the requirements for award of the Purple Heart (this doesn’t even require using the special rules granted by Congress for Ft. Hood).
3. As the incident meets the requirements for Hostile Fire and the requirements for award of the Purple Heart it can’t be categorized as “non combat heroism”. Therefore the appropriate awards are the services combat decorations (I think its at least a BS/V, but that’s just my opinion). SPC Skarlatos should be authorized the CAB also.
Concur. I’d also not argue with the Silver Star for both. Taking out an armed terrorist (AK/pistol/knife) barehanded takes some serious cojones.
Gotta disagree with you AverageNCO. I retired after 32 years of enlisted and commissioned service in the army as an infantryman. Saw some combat. Hand to hand combat is a mighty rare event and those young men were certainly engaged in it. To paraphrase a singer, “if that ain’t combat I’ll kiss your ass”. I believe that the award should recognize this as a valorous combat action,perhaps not in the traditional linear sense but in the understanding of our current operating environment.
We are still fighting terrorist anywhere, anytime as demonstrated by their actions. Perhaps someone is merely awaiting official word that the fellow they tackled is a terrorist? What should matter is the event and the actions.
Okay lets take a quick look at award criteria shall we. In order of precedence: (source: http://www.afpc.af.mil/library/awards/index.asp) Medal of Honor: It is given in the name of Congress to officers and enlisted members who distinguished themselves by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of their lives, above and beyond the call of duty, in action involving actual combat with an armed enemy of the United States. Air Force Cross: It is awarded for extraordinary heroism, not justifying the award of a Medal of Honor, to any person, who while serving with the U.S. Air Force while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States, engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force, or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in conflict against an opposing Armed Force in which the United States in not a belligerent party. Defense Distinguished Service Medal: (N/A) Defense Distinguished Service Medal – Awarded to the most senior officers whose performance of duties over a sustained period of time are exceptional in nature and directly impact national security or defense at the highest levels. It is the highest peacetime Defense award and is only awarded by the Secretary of Defense. The Defense Distinguished Service Medal has been in effect since July 9, 1970. Air Force Distinguished Service Medal: (N/A) Air Force Distinguished Service Medal – Awarded to any member of the United States Air Force who has distinguished himself or herself by exceptionally meritorious service to the United States Government in a duty of great responsibility. The medal is typically awarded to senior Air Force generals. The Air Force Distinguished Service Medal was created on July 6, 1960 by an act of the United States Congress. Silver Star: Silver Star – Awarded by all branches of the Armed Forces to any person who, while serving in any capacity, is cited for gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force, or while serving with friendly forces against an opposing Armed Force in which the United States is… Read more »
Well, other than the fact that the heroism occurred during combat with an enemy of the US, I’d agree with you. The Airman’s Medal would be completely apropos had this been a street thug or armed criminal.
It wasn’t. It was a terrorist attack against a friendly foreign country. The two servicemen and their civilian friend took the terrorist out via hand-to-hand combat.
I think Luddite4Change has it right above. But I’m also reasonably sure that for political reasons both will likely receive a high – but absolutely wrong – decoration for their heroism here.
Sad. Just plain sad that the Pentagon doesn’t have the guts to do the right thing here.
What I don’t get is this-Qahzzani was on the radar of the security agencies. So was he a Terrorist?? To me YES.
He was already regarded as a person of interest by the intelligence services of all three European countries where he had resided. So he was there to rob the people on the train??? I don’t think so.
This from the same service branch that vehemently defended awarding 5 BSMs in 1999 to AF members who never left Whiteman AFB in Missouri.
Definitely not our finest moment as a service.
Five? Try 185, to people in multiple locations worldwide – only 5 of which ever set foot in Kosovo or Serbia.
http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=34350
Grenada still has to be Army’s shining moment in the medals department, though.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/30/world/medals-outnumber-gi-s-in-grenada-assault.html
Not exactly the same situation. Of those medals that “wonderfully unbiased and accurate” source the NYT cites, only 685 were BSMs. At peak, the Army had somewhere around 5000-6000 soldiers on the ground in Grenada. Many of the other awards (and all of the achievement medals, if policy was followed- in the Army, the achievement medal is a noncombat decoration only ) the NYT cites were commendation or achievement medals that went to troops supporting the operation from locations outside Grenada.
Don’t know how many of the Army BSMs went to troops who never set foot in Grenada. However, I’d guess the number is pretty damn small, and likely zero. I say that because during Kosovo in 1999, the Army had approx 5000 soldiers on the ground there – and awarded ZERO BSMs for service in Kosovo.
FWIW: the USN and USMC – though not as blatant about it as the USAF – also rather abused the BSM during Kosovo. Abused, as in awarding a substantial number of BSMs to people in safe rear locations like Italy and Germany. (See the linked article cited in my comment above.) However, to their credit – and unlike the USAF – a significant portion of the USMC and USN BSMs awarded for Kosovo do appear to have gone to people who either did serve boots-on-ground in Kosovo or who served shipboard in the Adriatic during the operation.
The tires on those B2’s weren’t gonna check themselves. Thus bronze star.
I had a discussion about this with a retired USAF Major friend of mine. He defended the medals not on the basis that the recipient’s actions were heroic, but that it was the clearest and most effective way for their commanders to see to it that the Airmen were promoted. The WAPS system places emphasis on higher awards and since a commander can’t award stripes directly to his top (or, favorite) personnel, awarding them a high point value medal is the next best thing.
You can blame WAPS or the lack of ability for commanders to make STEP promotions. Take your pick.
Regarding the argument that he was not in a combat zone or we are no longer in a war I would point to the hijacking of TWA 847 by members of Hezbollah. Robert Stethem was was posthumously awarded a Bronze Star and Purple Heart, rightfully so, as he was on return travel from TAD in Nea Makri, Greece when the plane was hijacked. These young servicemen engaged an enemy in hand to hand combat and I believe the award of Bronze Star and Purple Heart are appropriate. If we can give Bronze Stars for merit to some Junior Officer that did a tour in Kuwait as a supply officer then we can give these two young warriors recognition for engaging what we all know is an enemy of not only France but of western values and life. I get the feeling this is a politically correct decision to deflect, once again, the problem of Islam and the west. Don’t think for one second the brass would do the right thing.
MK75Gunner, Thanks. I was going to cite MAJ Nicholson (BS/V and PH) in Germany, but TWA 847 is a much better comparison and precedent.
I think that there is some politics in play here, and I think that the comments by the SECAF and CSAF were premature. The correct answer would should have been, “Yes, we are looking at awarding them, but will wait until all the facts are known and the officer responsible to submitting the awards packet forwards his/her recommendation”. As it stands now, the USAF leadership has basically exercised undue command influence on the officer responsible for making the initial recommendation: that would likely be the SDO/DATT in Paris, who had responsibility for the individuals while they were in France. (That’s actually one of the reasons why individuals have to file a country clearance while on overseas leave).
Isnala. I appreciate the research and but the awards info pages don’t constitute authority. For that, you need to look either the US Code (in the case of the Silver Star) or the appropriate Executive Order (in the case of the Bronze Star). From the latest EO for the Bronze star (EO 11046):
….distinguishes, or has distinguished, himself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight–
(a) while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States;
(b) while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force; or
(c) while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.
The incident clearly meets the criteria of (a), if its categorized as a terrorist incident, as it has been.
Unless the two are retroactively granted hostile fire pay/imminent danger pay for at least the day of the incident, by Federal law the BSM is a NO-GO. Thank the USAF for making Congress step in and make that change in the law back in 2001.
Hondo, correct. But….see my comment above.
SDO/DATT as the local commander has a responsibility to ensure that the HF pay authorization is submitted to DFAS thru the COCOM Commander. Per the DOD FMR and the DODI 1340.09 the local commander’s decision is considered authoritative and can’t be overruled except in the case of fraud.
Most people thing that HF/IDP is one thing. In law and regulation it is two. HF is paid for a discrete event, while IDP is paid at a location where the the threat of hostile fire is “imminent”. You can collect one or the other. A great example is the Pentagon on 9/11, all individuals at the site were awarded HF pay for the month of September 01.
Understood. Was just emphasizing the fact that Federal law requires entitlement to or receipt of either IDP or HFP for the BSM.
And rightly so, IMHO.
The true culprit here is that neither Congress nor DOD has established a clear definition of what constitutes “combat service”. (I think we’ve had that circular conversation here a few times over the years.)
True. Hell, we don’t even have a decent definition of what “combat” means!
The only DoD definition I’ve ever found was in DoDM 1348.33-V1, but the definition there is IMO so overly broad (“Armed fighting, battle, any struggle or conflict, strife”) as to be essentially worthless to define “combat service”.
But that Manual does a good job of defining Combat Heroism, which seems to fit this case.
combat heroism. An act or acts of heroism by an individual above what is normally expected while engaged in direct combat with an enemy with exposure to enemy hostilities and personal risk.
It was based on that vary change by Congress that I thought The Silver Star would have been a no go as well. Wasn’t 100% sure, but thought the change also affected the higher level awards and not just the BSM. This was the main reason why I was arguing in favor of the Airman’s Medal. Other than that one sticking point (i.e. no hostile fire zone/imminent danger pay) I would very much agree that at least the Silver Star would be more appropriate. IF in fact the BSM is the only one affected by that rules change, then fully agree Silver Star or higher may be a better choice.
Negative. That statutory change in the FY 2001 NDAA was quite specific to the BSM only. It was due to abuse of that award by two services during the 1999 hostilities in Kosovo. I’ve discussed that here previously:
http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=34350
As far as I know, the BSM is the ONLY personal decoration that has this type of restriction (e.g., must be in receipt of hostile fire or imminent danger pay or must be serving in an area where such is authorized). The closest other legal restriction is that for the MOH, which is limited to personnel in uniform but as far as I know has no HFP/IDP or geographical restrictions.
Certain other decorations by policy can only be awarded for noncombat service or heroism; some can only be awarded for valor in combat. A fair number can be awarded for either combat or noncombat acts or service.
Thanks again for the info Hondo. Like I said I wasn’t sure about the HFP/IDP and was under the impression that it was also required for the Silver Star. If like you say it isn’t limit by HFP/IDP then I agree it would be a much better choice. If you read most of my comments on the subject one of the main reasons I cited was lack of HFP/IDP. Of course as Luddite4Change mentioned they could simply declare HFP for the incident and completely solve any HFP/IDP issues for any of the awards.
As the MOH, Service Crosses, and Silver Star can’t be given for service, but rather only for actions against an enemy/hostile force the requirement for receipt of HF/IDP is redundant. The individual would always be in a position to qualify for either HF or IDP.
Could be worse:
“…For outstanding achievement while selflessly devoting 2 hours of volunteer service to local community…”
These guys are lucky to be getting any awards out of this fight. I am surprised that the powers that be are acting so quickly to reward these deserving young men. In these times of political correctness and appeasement it was more likely that the HMFIC would hold a Rose Garden Presser to give a PH to the Moroccan for the ass whipping these three redneck, racist thugs put on him.
PS Anyone know what the French LoM is worth in promotion points, if any?
Probably nothing in policy (could be wrong, don’t remember), but I suspect that the board will look favorably upon it.
USAF doesn’t grant any WAPS points for that award although it is authorized for wear on the uniform. Which is another reason why the Airman in question (at least) is also getting a US award. Your also right however if/when they come before an actual board it will show up in their promotion jacket and should help further their cause.
Just my opinion folks but the Airmen deserves the Silver Star at least. He helped to stop an act of TERRORISM, Not work place or thug violence or saving a drowning swimmer or a crash victim from a burning car. I say give the hero his due.
The Airman’s Medal is quite appropriate. First, it is one of the rarest and most revered of all military awards. IMHO, having read literally tens of thousands of award citations, this does not rise to the level of a Silver Star (even if a combat decoration were authorized)…Perhaps a BSM/V. Either way, given the choice myself, I’d take an Airman’s Medal over a BSM/V any day…perhaps even over a Silver Star. Keep in mind, somewhere around 130,000 Silver STars have been awarded in history…fewer than 1,000 people have ever received the Airman’s Medal.
We’ll have to agree to disagree, DS.
Hand-to-hand combat is, well, combat. And by the book, the Airman’s Medal is only awarded for noncombat heroism.
Can a medic be a combatant? (I dunno…)
YES. They are allowed to act in self defense.
Self defense is quite different from being in combat. Lots of folks defend themselves each day (as we see every morning with the feel good stories), but how many of those are combatants?
Still having trouble getting my head around the concept – according to multiple commenters here, no one can be a combatant unless they carry certain career designators. Civilians certainly wouldn’t be combatants, according to some.
That’s skewed numbers. Silver Stars are granted to all services while the Airman’s Medal is generally for Air Force Guys.
Not gonna see too many Marines getting an Airman’s medal.
True that. Also, how long has the Airmans Medal been around versus the Silver Star?
Airman’s Medal – 1960
Silver Star – 1932
Exactly….you had all of WWII and Korea for award of the Silver Star hence the inordinate difference in numbers awarded.
While the law instituting the Silver Star dates to 1932, eligibility was back dated to WWI. The original silver star was worn on the WWI Victory Medal ribbon as a silver citation star for being cited (Mentioned in Dispatches in British Parlance) by Division commander or above. It was silver to differentiate between the bronze campaign stars.
Actually, the Silver Star’s roots go back even farther – to the “Citation Star” of World War I.
The Citation Star was established in 1918, but was retroactive back to the Civil War. It was a silver star worn on the suspension ribbon for the appropriate campaign medal. It was awarded to those cited by name for gallantry in action in appropriate dispatches.
The Silver Star was the Citation Star’s direct successor. When the Silver Star was created in 1932, personnel authorized the Citation Star were retroactively awarded OLCs for the Silver Star medal to replace their Citation Stars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Citation_Star
Two of BG Theodore Roosevelt Jr’s four Silver Stars were for service in World War I, and were originally Citation Stars.
http://valor.militarytimes.com/recipient.php?recipientid=2922
Another AF retiree here, weighing in with the opinion that the Airman’s Medal is entirely appropriate for AIC Stone, and perhaps even for the others who intervened. I’d also applaud the USAF for getting this done with haste.
Is this necessarily the end of it, or is an upgrade in award precluded by taking this action right away? Not that I can see.
If you want to consider that A1C Stone was “on duty” because of his active duty status, fine, but the others were not. Guardsmen are not on duty when they are not pulling drill or activated for some reason. Should A1C Stone qualify for more awards than the others when they were all on vacation together? That makes no sense to me at all.
OWB. I understand your point, and there is a legal loop that likely has to be negotiated to have SPC Skarlatos retroactively placed on duty for the weekend.
That’s not to hard an an administrative task for the Oregon Guard to accomplish as he no doubt performed a duty for the US Government during the period and immediately afterwards (i.e. Action, Embassy debrief, awards ceremony, etc.)
There are numerous precedents in DOD for doing this, as I can remember many cases were a reservist was awarded the Soldiers Medal or equivalent when they were not on a drill weekend.
Big loophole for SPC Skarlatos. Because he was overseas, the Oregon Governor (CinC for Oregon NG Forces) cannot put him in a duty status. He would have to be in a T10 status outside the US which would most likely require SecArmy/SecDef action. I would have to defer to more informed personnel professionals to weigh in on whether CNGB could retroactively create a T10 duty status outside US territory. I believe the current one would have qualms against setting a precedent of this magnitude. Not sure how his Chief Counsel would advise, and the CC opinion would be the Gen’s decision.
Wow! All these well-reasoned arguments and quoted regulations when in all actuality, the manner in which the matter is handled by the U.S. Government is whether the White House is occupied by a limp-wristed, politically-correct, metrosexual Muslim or a real man who has a pair and who recognizes the reality that we are at worldwide war with radical Islam.
I’m surprised Obama didn’t insist on Good Conduct medals.
I’m surprised he didn’t order them to attend sensitivity training for whipping that dirty goat fuckers ass.
HOOOOOOOOOOAH
HOOOOOOOOAH
HOOOOOOAH
HOOOOAH
HOOAH ! ! ! ! ! !
Soooo – how soon until the posers start sporting Legions of Honor ???
“There I was, riding the little dumbo train with my kid at Euro-Disney…”
I’d say give it a year or so, let the publicity fade away and then we will have a new batch of of fake super heroes LMFAO ! ! !
🙂
Too late. I think Soup Sandwich had that covered a couple of years ago. I think I saw that near his Antarctica Ribbon
Right call.
Old Air Force Recruiting slogan:
“Aim High”
Should be the same when determining the proper award for a selfless Servicemember.
I’m an old fart but as I remember in the course of my life, 74 yrs. there has only one declared war, WWII, all the rest were called whatever was politically correct at the time they happened, we may have won some of them had the country actually had the balls to call a war a war. In this case the arguments sound like what used to be called barracks lawyering. Just because a country decides to leave a war zone, hostile environment doesn’t mean the war is over. These young men were very brave in a hostile fire situration Hell the French don’t even give us credit for Paris and they recognized this for what it was and did it fast, they got it right we had a meeting of a bunch of Generals who tried to honor them without upsetting our politically correct leader in chief
Ok, the Old Dog needs to bark and growl here.
Simple fact is our military is hamstrung in awarding any “Combat” medals because it would mean that the ass-mongering shit-for-brains twatwaffles in the current administration wont admit we are in an all out war.
Queen Barry doesnt wan’t to upset the libtards or the “peaceloving” muslims by admitting that ISIS is a world wide threat that has recruited agents to murder people in the West.
The young men who took out that sack of shit were in a battle, just as sure as those who fought in any of our wars. That brief minute or so of fighting for their lives was just as intense as any struggle.
Calling it non-combat is a fucking cop out. Hopefully once Queen Barry is sent packing all the nuetered Geberal officers with go with him.
Bitches
He’s getting the airmans medal because he was not in combat. I can’t believe there is doubt about this.