Friday vagaries
You may have been following the news about the Sig P320, which has been pulled for use from a couple of ‘major’ customers (Chicago PD and LAPD, the two largest in the country.) The base issue is that there have been incidents in which the gun goes off when holstered. As in just sitting in a holster on a table.* Many say it’s simply human error – “Get yer booger hook off the bang switch!” – but Sig did a voluntary recall and rework on ’em in 2017 which was supposed to stop it happening – and it hasn’t. Now the Air Force Global Strike Command has officially paused the use of the military’s P320 derived M17 and M18 pistols due to the death off an airmen due to accidental discharge.
The active-duty Security Forces airman, assigned to the base’s 90th Security Forces Squadron, “died on base while on duty” in the early morning hours Sunday, a news release from the base said. While the identity of the service member has not yet been made public, nor has the circumstances of their death, Air Force Global Strike Command, or AFGSC, issued an immediate order pausing the use of 9mm Sig Sauer M18 handguns as a result of the incident.
“Air Force Global Strike Command has paused use of the M18 Modular Handgun System, effective July 21, 2025, until further notice,” Charles Hoffman, an AFGSC spokesperson, told Military.com. “This decision was made following a tragic incident at F.E. Warren AFB, WY, on July 20, 2025, which resulted in the death of a Security Forces airman.” Military.com
Sig is known for their customer service, or lack of which, which reputedly competes with Glock for last place. “You haff a problem? Are you too f***** stupid to operate the weapon correctly?” is their perception among many…I am thinking with major military and police contracts potentially in the wind, they will be trying to get to the bottom of this. Too many knowledgeable, unbiased people are saying “you know, I saw one go off with no one touching it” for them to be complacent.
* sorry, some source material was a bit ambiguous. Mea culpa.
Who is the chief law enforcement officer in any state? Well, in most states, it’s supposed to be the Attorney General. Now, as we have seen, that doesn’t mean they are above the law (look at New York’s Letitia James as an example of that.) But for shear chtuzpah, it’s hard to beat Texas’ Ken Paxton.
The man has to pay four assistants $6.6 million for whistleblower retaliation. Fox7 In 2023 he became the first statewide official to be impeached in over 100 years:
On Sept. 5, Paxton faces the Texas Senate for a trial that delves into accusations of various misdeeds that include bribery, abuse of office and obstruction of justice. The tribunal is the result of the Texas House voting 121-23 to impeach Paxton. Politifact
The Texas House is not the world’s bluest, shall we say. 121-23 ? Currently there are 88 Republicans and 62 Democrats… and 121 voted for impeachment. Hmmm.
That was more or less just as background – his latest is even better. Remember I mentioned Letitia James above, the one who tried taking on both Donald Trump and the NRA, pretty much simultaneously – and not only got her head handed to her BOTH times, but now is in her own trouble over mortgage fraud charges. Now Ken, although an ardent Trump fan, seems to (if imitation truly is the sincerest form of flattery) really admire her… or is at least pulling the same nonsense she did.
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton and his wife, Angela, are longtime owners of a $1.5 million house in a gated community outside Dallas. In 2015, they snapped up a second home in Austin. Then another.
The problem: Mortgages signed by the Paxtons contained inaccurate statements declaring that each of those three houses was their primary residence, enabling the now-estranged couple to improperly lock in low interest rates, according to an Associated Press review of public records. The lower rates will save the Paxtons tens of thousands of dollars in payments over the life of the loan, legal experts say.
The records also revealed that the Paxtons routinely flouted lending agreements on some of their other properties.
Things like signing stipulations that their houses were forbidden to be rental properties – and then they rented them out, sometimes for years.
Texas is pretty serious about homestead exemptions. Once. Multiple homesteads? That’s tax fraud, and they’re pretty serious about that, too.
Oh, and Paxton is running to replace long-time Senator John Cornyn. Bet I know which way I am gonna vote.
Category: 2026 Elections, Crime
Paxton is a first class shady douchebag. Between the his fooling around with mistresses, crooked business deals and ethical disabilities he will be perfect for Congress.
Or a senior position at All Points Logistics.
I have P320c which uses a completely different firing mechanism than the P320/M18. I have had zero issues with it. It is precise, practically never malfs, and is light and easy to carry.
Don’t know anyone who has ever had an ND/AD with a P320/M18. The few videos I have seen haven’t been definitive.
It is absolutely definitive and has been proven multiple times in drop test at this point.
The fact that it hasn’t happened to you is a ridiculous counter claim. That is not how statistics work.
Provide all the drop test statistics then.
Then provide all the unintended discharge and post-upgrade trigger statistics.
We’ll wait.
Statistics? How about just proof it discharges if dropped at a certain angle.
https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/s/pzGxJub1Xg
The worst negligent discharge in American history is the one that created you.
😆😆😆🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Now that is an accurate statement.
Yes, once again reading comprehension = Fail
That Reddit post 😭 was from eight years ago, or for the math challenged 2017.
From the recall year
That I already mentioned
That likely isn’t relevant
You are still a tard
Good day.
Another.
https://youtu.be/hsljmVh-GFQ?si=obP2p-VPqRRrfJbd
Oh FFS, also from eight years ago….
Redditt and YouTube aren’t valid proof of statistics.
Once again, you fail at this station.
Posted with your usual lack of attention to detail and no evidence. You see I said I own 320c with a completely different firing mechanism. So there is no reason to think that it would have the same problem. Unless you are you of course. For the record, it doesn’t, you are welcome for being informed that you are yet again wrong.
Dropping the weapon wasn’t the cause of practically all known incidents of AD/ND so not sure what a drop fault has to do with anything. You don’t know what the cause of the AF AD was. Most of the issues have been with holstering the weapon which is a common fault where “something”, finger, clothing , equipment etc, gets inside the trigger housing and it goes off.
There was a known drop fault years ago that prompted a design change and recall back in 2017 to allegedly fix the drop issue. When the pistol fell at a 33 degree angle, it could go off.
In the only successful court cases against Sig the jury decided that the lack of external safety contributed to the incidents in Georgia and Philadelphia. This is odd because lots of pistols have no external safety.
Oh, so you posted about an sig with a different mechanism than the specific P320s that are at issue?
Such bullshit tap dancing.
Yeah, I have an Sig Cross, and my GF has a P365. They haven’t accidentally discharged on us either.
How the hell would that be relevant to the discussion of flawed P320s?
“Such bullshit tap dancing.”
There’s no tap dancing. He made a clear, concise statement. You failed to read the statement and went into full-blown “I’m the smartest man in the room” mode. You failed. Spectacularly.
Fair enough. I don’t notice he was talking about the P320c. Which was has safety improvements.
But he went on to claim the P320 ADs have not been definitive when they have.
Just not the newer redesigned P320s.
The only one tap dancing is you, because as usual you are wrong and not just because you don’t pay attention. I was speaking generally about Sigs and you misread it.
The drop test isn’t relevant, because you don’t know if it was even dropped by the Airman. Prove me wrong.
Which will be first? The Epstein files or Commissary providing proof of anything he says to be true at TAH.
I am not talking about a specific incident with a specific airmen.
I am referring to the a flaw in the P320 design that is causing it to fail drop tests.
And the fact that the sear can migrate against the trigger bar which then puts pressure on the internal safety. Creating a dangerous condition that can cause a weapon to be easily discharged.
We are talking about a specific incident with a specific Airman. Go take your Ritalin or whatever it is that puts you back on track.
If you didn’t constantly come here with a raging hate-on and an obsessive desire to always be right, your reading comprehension would probably improve. But, as long as you keep laboring under the delusion that you know more than everyone here, that’s not gonna happen.
I’m betting the second coming will come first.
Like my Kahr, a shooter’s pistol, and every wheel-gun I own.
Ruger New Model Super Blackhawk in .44mag.
Stainless w 10.5 inch bbl in a western style
gunbelt and holster.
It’s going bang unless I want it to.
It’s not going bang, it’s going boom!
“not” sorry.
When I started working for US Trucking armoured car in 1970 while going through our merger with Brinks’, we had S&W Mod 10 .38 4 in pencil and bull barrels and we were told that we weren’t allowed to put a round into the above chamber where the firing pin rested at parade rest to prevent an AD. Along comes Brink’s and our new WW2 Marine Vet armorer/instructor and asks why no round goes into the top cylander ans didn’t like the answer so he gets mgt into his small shop and puts a non fixable Mod 10 in the vise and pulls the hammer back on the unloaded gun and beats the shit out of the hammer until the thumb piece falls off then shows the intact part of the hammer assembly with the firing pin still behind the hammer stop. 6 rounds into the chamber after the demo.. That order for the 5 rounds was also in the green US Trucking rule book which I never saved. I see from all the Sig 320 comments that the weapon is striker fired like my Colt 1904 .25 My friends Daughter gave to me when he passed away. Was a Yonkers NY Detective and took it from a perp and kept it. My Springfield XD .40 is also striker fired. I may have another 1 vacume packed in my safe.
.25 is probably the absolute worst round in the world as far as ballistics goes. With that said, there is no telling,, how many people have been killed by it. It is probably the most popular pistol for guy shooting someone in a bar. I have one that was given to me by a lady that I used to work with. Her boyfriend gave it to her, but they couldn’t ever get it to work correctly. I took it apart and found the main spring was trashed. It’s all still in an envelope in the safe. I can buy a spring to fix it with, but I could buy the same exact pistol for another $40.
I probably wouldn’t carry it if I did fix it. My CC pistol is a Keltec .380. No one can tell it’s in my pocket. All it has to do is get me back to the truck. Ironically, once I’m back to the truck,, I have a P320 with a 15 rnd mag, In it and a spare 15 rnd mag.
That was supposed to say GUT, not guy!!!
I recently bought back an MK9 I sold in a moment of weakness…. glad she’s back home
Turns out the issues affects all P320s including the P320c.
The C passes the drop test due to the lighter trigger reducing inertia when dropped.
But the issue where it is firing while holstered is across all P320s.
Turns out everyone knew that but you.
Read 5JC’s post again. Then read it one word at a time. If you look closely, you’ll see that he says he has a “P320c which uses a completely different firing mechanism than the P320/M18.”
You’re not even living up to your usual low standards.
I have a P320, personal firearm, and have had four assigned to me by the Army. No problem with any of them. I also maintain muzzle and trigger awareness at all times. While the statistics speak of the ADs/NDs, they don’t mention how the weapons were handled by the users.
I’m not saying that there is nothing to it, but there are holes in the reporting.
Wasn’t Paxton the Attorney General when they charged SGT Daniel Perry? I did not follow the trial but it seemed real odd that he was convicted.
He was and he did bad mouth the DA for the prosecution. However, DAs are elected in Texas and don’t work for the AG, so there wasn’t anything he could do about it.
I own a few SIGs but not a P320. Never had an issue with them. I do follow MAC on YouTube and he always says don’t buy a 1st or 2nd Gen SIG…and he loves them!
The Security Forces at our local AFB are all sporting M4s these days!!
“the gun goes off when holstered”
Never carry a firearm with a rnd in the chamber unless you
expect to fire it.
My choice is a 1911A1 .45 auto and a round can easily be
chambered while unholstering it.
Just racking the slide is sometimes enough to get the point
across without violance.
I’ve been carrying locked and loaded most of my life. When I carried the old 1911 on duty it was never with a round chambered but it was never drop safe. By the time I was a 1LT, it was gone with the dodo.
I did run into a few at an ROTC unit later but even those were turned in (early 2000s). It was sad to see them go. Some were WWII era and earlier. I checked value on a few and it was in the thousands. But the Army took them and cut them into little pieces. They should have all gone to CMP and been auctioned or sold off.
Mine is a geniune Colt sold to the Argentine military.
I suppose they all got “disposed” of for the same $$
instead of scrap.
Had one in Viet of the Nam in easy reach as I slept.
Still do.
I used to work as a millwright. One day I went to dump some scrap metal in an open top rail car that was used to collect it. I always looked in there to see if there anything that I/we could use. One day (probably around 1994-95, I looked in there and there was hundreds of 1911s that had been heated (red hot) and the barrel and frame twisted into a loop. I wanted to grab a couple just because of the history of them, but had a security guard bird-dogging me. When I went back later, the rail car was gone.
I have a Colt 1911, a Beretta 92, a Sig P320 (M18), and I’m sure I’ll buy whatever the next Army side arm that is chosen
Long guns= 1903A3, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M4/AR-15, AK-47, SKS 2x, I’m missing an M1A/M-14, M-3, and many, many, more😁
I always carry with one in the tube.
My original EDC was a Sig P220 – 45ACP with a “drop hammer” safety, SA/DA function.
Current EDC is a post-2017 Sig P320 – 9mm with no external safety.
I think there was a video circulating a week or two back of an Israeli soldier who was carrying with an empty chamber when attacked in a public place. If it had not been for bystanders intervening and giving him the time/space to do so, he would never have been able to get the round in the chamber. IIRC it took him 3 or 4 tries to chamber and fire.
I never carry one in the tube when the barrel points at me. Chest, hip, carry no problem loaded. I practice my draw/load appendix carry to make sure I’m up to par. Appendix carry is the only time my barrels are empty on any firearm. It does take that 1/4 second extra to fire on target. You need to practice regularly to make sure it works. To each his own, do what you feel is in your best interest or circumstances. My city EDC is a LC9. Outdoors a kenai chest rig Springfield elite 5.25” 10mm for bear country. I practice a min 2x month.
I have one sig product, a P938. In less than 500 rounds it has failed twice. The second failure required the replacement of the slide. It has sat in my safe unused since and is in my plans for sale.
Given sigs repeated response to the failures of the 320 and their attitude towards their customers I have decided I do not need any sig product and am happy buying their competition’s products like the Hellcat and or PSA’ dagger versions.
I am very disappointed to hear of paxton’s shenanigans. I am also not a fan of cornyn, who is simply a rino and supports far too many demokrat bills. We seriously need another option in the senate race. Yup I’m in TX.
Years ago my department issued Sig 229 in 40 S&W. 5 guys went to a week long SWAT school and three of them had constant issues with their Sigs (fail to feed, fail to fire, fail to extract etc).
After the training the pistols were cleaned, lubed, new magazines purchased and different brands of ammo were used in test firing. The same results occurred.
The guns were sent to Sig who replaced internal springs and supplied more magazines.
When we started test firing and using ammo Sig recommended, the same negative results occurred. Sig was contacted and told us we were doing something wrong.
Bottom line their customer service was not the best and that lead the agency to switch to Glocks as the issue weapon, and I have been carrying a Glock 17 for 25 years.
The P320 doesn’t “go off just sitting on a table holstered”.
It can go off when dropped. They were able to reproduce this malfunction in drop tests. Particularly when it landed at a 39 degree angle on the backstrap.
Sig has already issued a recall and safety upgrade. Though not all P320s have had the upgrade done to them.
It can also go off if jostled in the holster. But that is very rare and very hard to reproduce. With more than 2 million P320s in circulation, many everyday carried by law enforcement, getting constantly jostled…even a low probability malfunction due to a design flaw is going to happen eventually. And keep happening. However rare.
The striker fired chassis system they created is poorly designed. It is essentially a hammer fired pistol design inexpensively converted to striker fired.
The sear moves when jostled. It shouldn’t. When it moves the sear can put pressure on the back of the trigger bar. The trigger bar then puts pressure on the internal safety mechanism.
This means that over time the way the sear, trigger bar, and safety interacts causes a weapon that is primed to go off when jostled or any pressure is put on the trigger. Even gentle pressure or pressure on the side of the trigger.
Sig blames “poorly fitted holsters” but that is a bullshit excuse that is harming its reputation. These are happening in holsters formed specifically for the P320.
So while Sig can technically claim it is “user error” or “poor holsters” because some small amount of pressure was put on the trigger either from the side by the holster or by user error by people indexing with their trigger finger… these weapons should not have a design flaw that makes them this dangerous to handle.
And, given the drop test failure, and the way the sear, trigger bar, and safety interact it is very likely that a condition can be met where even jostling the holster without any pressure on the trigger can cause the weapon to discharge.
Tell us more about going off when jostled in the holster. Let’s see a video of that. Since you advance that as fact it should be easy to prove.
Not some bullshit Reddit post either.
I went through the M17/M18 armorer’s course in June. Seemed like a fairly simple, straightforward pistol. We asked the instructor (A Sig/Sauer employee) about the unexplained discharge issue. He rattled off what seemed to be a very well prepared, well rehearsed speech about oopertor error and unfamiliarity, improper holsters, covered everything except the possibility of a design flaw. It sounded like it was written by the marketing and legal departments. It was not very convincing.
There very well could be more to it. I’d like to see some evidence of that instead of just the ramblings of some TDS enraged tranny.
Seemed like a very nice gun, we didn’t get to fire it. I’m not usually fan of double-stack nines, but the small sized grip fit just right.
Kind of an aside, I’m seeing Sig and Glock are following the Walther customer service model.
Sad.
I have 0 experience with Glock, save that a brother-in-law does quality control for them and carries. I’ve shot his pistol – it works but I prefer the feel of a Sig, Ruger, or even a Walther (except for that horrible trigger!)
As I said above, I’ve had contact with Sig’s customer service on several occasions and they always took care of me well.
They are all mostly pretty bad. The only ones I have had good luck with are Kimber and HiPoint.
HiPoint sent me a whole new carbine essentially after I melted one of their older ones, rapid firing 1000 rounds in way less than ten minutes, 20 years ago. I got rid of it after that and sold for what I paid for it since it was new. They were only $200 back then and I was thinking handy trunk gun, then it melted. 9mm ammo was so cheap back then. Cheap as rimfire today.
I bought a broken Kimber (full size 1911) in a PPS and called them and told them I needed parts and gave them a list and the serial number. They hesitated but they sent them all out for free and I had it running like a clock the next day. So I got what was a half price Kimber because the owner abused the gun and was too lazy to fix it.
If I shoot someone, or myself, I want it to be because I meant to do it.
I am not hating on the P320. I am hating on a company that won’t take clear responsibility for a design flaw and obfuscates and misdirects while redesigning the weapon behind the scenes.
It should not have been a “voluntary” recall. It would have been a “recommended” recall at the very least.
Telling owners there is ‘not nothing to worry about but we will fix the issue that isn’t happening if you are worried’ was a bullshit response. And it is why the community has been arguing for the last seven years about whether the problem exists or not.
It exists. Drop tests show it. And examination of how the sear puts pressure on the trigger bar and subsequently the internal safety is pretty conclusive. As is the fact that pressure on the sear from the rear of the weapon can discharge the weapon as well.
Unlike a lot of other people here I would not want you to harm yourself. If you are feeling any thoughts of self harm, seek help. It is easy to do and there is a lot available.
I have to agree, Lars.
Please do not shoot yourself, or someone else (unless you are being attacked.)
If you get that urge, please please reach out to someone.
For the record, I am not a fan of Senator John Cornyn. A bit too “squishy” in the spinal column region.
That said, Ken Paxton strongly resembles the “shyster lawyer” stereotype. I’m even less a fan.
In re Sig Sauer’s customer service, I have only my personal experience by which to judge, but they have always been good to me in my several inquiries into diverse issues for different systems. Much, much better than, say, Walther.
I am really curious about the problems with the P320. My personal copy of the P320 has not caused me any problems. It is my EDC and has been for some time.
It funny how hiding behind “politically motivated” persecution is that last refugee of a turd.
A turd, is a turd is a turd regardless of the political stripe.
We spent a buttload of money to replace a high-capacity 9mm pistol with iffy stopping power with another high-capacity 9mm pistol with iffy stopping power and an accidental discharge problem. Yay.
And all the while we had a tried and true .45 ACP with over a century of success.
[…] as it relates to the death of an active duty USAF Airman Brayden Lovan last month, starting here. After that incident, which was reported as an uncommanded discharge when the Security Forces […]