AZ State Senator Jeff Dial and his military service
Apparently, folks are calling into question Arizona Republican State Senator Jeff Dial’s military service. According to the Arizona Republic, he was on the fat boy program for most of his enlistment, rocketed up to Private First Class and then placed on the Individual Ready Reserve where his career stagnated.
But what Dial doesn’t say about his military experience is that soon after joining the U.S. Army Reserve in 1996, he got in trouble for his weight, triggering a personnel action against him and making him ineligible for promotion. Four years into his eight-year commitment, he was transferred to the inactive list for “unsatisfactory participation.”
While other reservists were being called up to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan, Dial remained on the individual ready reserve list from 2000 to 2004. Dial, a Republican who represents parts of Ahwatukee Foothills, Tempe, Mesa and Chandler, received an honorable discharge when his service commitment ended in 2004.
Well, if this is at all accurate, he’s probably not even close to being a veteran, but all I see on his campaign website is one mention of his service;
So, I’m not sure how big of an issue it should be. You folks in Arizona probably know more about it than me. But some of our friends are quoted in the article;
Larry Bailey, retired after 27 years as a Navy Seal, said he believes the idea that Dial is a veteran is “laughable.” He said Dial should not have an honorable discharge with his military record.
Bailey is on the Stolen Valor team of B.G. Burkett, an author and military-service watchdog who investigates fraudulent claims of military service.
He said Dial is a veteran in technical terms since he went through basic training. But Bailey said Dial “did nothing” after that, so it was “pitiful” for him to campaign on being a veteran.
“I don’t understand why anyone would claim to be a veteran” with that record, Bailey said.
Yeah, I don’t think I would even mention that I had been in the military if that was the extent of my record.
Category: Politics
I’m starting to see a lot of this crap here in Arizona
I sense someone is starting crap because they what to run against him this crap is common here in Arizona during the crazy season. Or right before
Now you’ve done it! Refering to the “Fat Boy Program” will give him justification for the PTSD. The kinder, gentler PC version to enhance soldier’s self-esteem is the “Body Composition Program”. Because it’s not their fault anymore…
ooops. hit the report first instead of reply. sorry.
Anyways – it is fine to call it the fat boy program as long as you use it to refer to white males and no one else. “Fat Girl” program is definitely forbidden, although I have seen a lot more females deserving of the program than males (and no, the I can’t lose the fat from childbirthing is not an excuse a years down the road).
DO YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HIT THE RED BUTTON?!
Ah, my favorite Ren and Stimpy bit right there!
Apropos to absolutely nothing at all …
I found this on your youtube link and had to post it for posterity. I’m certain it will come in handy to someone, somewhere, down the line:
Foreign relations with Russia go all to Hell?
I heard that.
Okay, I ain’t the sharpest knife in the drawer, so someone explain how he goes through boot camp WITHOUT losing weight.
When I went, in back in ’71, I weighed north of 230 lb. After 8 weeks I was 160. There was a kid in our platoon who prolly weighed 150 (at 6′ tall). He PUT ON weight (muscle).
So, Lucy, ‘splain this.
OC
OC, when I went through OSUT at Benning back in 90 something, I showed up 6’2″ and 185 pounds of fluff. I finished AIT weighing 165. I’m pretty sure I actually lost more than 20 lbs.
Showed up at boot weighing 165.
Left at 147. All that running does a body good.
Expect it. He’s a politician. Someone probably TOLD him to do it. He’s OBVIOUSLY not bright enough to have thought it up himself.
My comment on the Stolen Valor site was ” He got tossed because he was a FAT BODY! TECHNICALLY he was a vet and it looks like with an honorable discharge. Piss Poor but still.
HOLY JESUS!!!! HE LOOKS LIKE PRIVATE PYLE!!!
More like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NP8y63Ms4o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NP8y63Ms4o
Compared to most of the asshats we see here, this guy is pretty minor. We’ve got bigger elected turds to deal with in AZ. Hey Skippy, how’s that Grijalva guy these days? And Dupnik? LOL
We are in Mcsally’s district.
That G name must not be spoken in this house LMAO ! ! ! !
I can say one thing about small fry here he is not eligible for VA benefits, and no joke we have some turds here that make this guy look like preschool
Skippy,
What part of the County are you in? I work at the Fort.
Pima by Marana. Crap Camino Cerro and silverbell area, oh my I miss fort H it’s so much cooler down there
I’m in the same district Skip. Looks like we’re all neighbors
And it’s a pleasant 83 degrees with an expected high of 91. looks like you get 103 today! Sorry!
Yea we average about 2-3 degrees warmer then the airport here and it sucks Lol…..
lol it has been hot here too.. in the mid 90’s lately
I’m on my way to go see a buddy here in a few in the Gardner canyon or is that Ramsey canyon its da area just south of SV
Ramsey. Gardner is on post
With all the canyon talk, I feel a fishing evening coming on down at Parker Canyon Lake
Parker canyon is nice was there two weeks ago,
is Patagonia any good for fishing ????
I caught a couple of nice bass from shore a couple of years ago, probably better with a boat. Someone caught a 56 catfish there last year. It’s definitely easier to get to than Parker. And the Wagon Wheel is on the way if you’re driving from Tucson 🙂
56 pound catfish.
The road from west gate down to Parker canyon is paved all the way now. on the Cochise side the pot holes are Epic
Ramsey canyon before the folklore place, but I misspoke it’s Thursday not Wednesday
Responding to the pot hole comment Skippy – down there you are dodging pot holes and Border Patrols.
Yeh that’s a understatement…
You could go to Coronado monument and get your Binos out and have some fun watching a he two chase one another
Now I am all confused. I thought we were ultra-right wing extremest veterans. Why did you attack one of our own? Aren’t we supposed to target only leftest libtards?
The ROE around here has gone to hell.
Indeed Dave!
Now I have to rethink my bitter clinging!!!
I was all ready to call this guy a clown, loser, fat fuck, shitbag, poser and an idiot for even attempting to claim veteran status, but now that I see he is a Republican, hell, if I lived in AZ, I would vote for him just cause he served!!!!
Dave, we are a diverse group of vets, I would think independent to commonsense. I haven’t met anybody on the left yet that had either of those traits so far, but I’m only 44 so I have a long ways to go ! ! ! ! 🙂
And to think back around that time it was called the, “Food For Freedom” plan.
In basic we called it the fat farm
Pork Chop Platoon
Easily identified by the 2 bright red stripes on their sweatshirts
Bahahahahahaha ! ! ! !
I better hurry up and post this before that ChipNASA beats me to it! 😀
Damn. Just a little too late. Great minds think alike.
Regarding this guy: he’s technically telling the truth, but stretching things IMO. Probably not a record I’d tout as a selling point if it were mine. But that’s an issue for the voters of AZ, not me.
I will say that I’ve always wondered how someone could gain 5 lbs and go from “hard charger/great soldier/promote immediately” to “dirtbag/worthless soldier/should be tossed”.
Yeah, I know – it’s policy, and policy doesn’t have to make sense. And policy has to be enforced.
Still . . . it sometimes makes you wonder. I’ve certainly known a few “wide bodies” in my life that I’d truly love to have watching my back in a bar fight or back-alley brawl.
I agree with what you are saying Hondo. I think the army uses it as a tool to thin the heard I’ve served with plenty of great soldiers that were five or ten pounds over it did not hinder there performance
He served, he has an honorable discharge, has not claimed anything other that that (that I am seeing)… So why is this even be made an issue? People mad he didn’t do “enough”? Political opponents trying to paint a different portrait of what was claimed?
I don’t know or care about the man, but Stolen Valor? Hardly… Show me a photo of him in purple tiger stripes wearing a Green Beret and I would agree.
Inclined to agree about Stolen valor.
Exaggeration, yes. Stolen Valor, no.
This dude was nothing more than a marginal, shitbag soldier. No more, no less.
We all know though, if he hadn’t said anything about his *shortened* service, then he would have been drug through the mud for that as well.
Classified “9W”. So what? Has he claimed anything he didn’t do/earn? We have bigger (see what I did there?) douchefish to fry than this little guy.
I agree. He served, he was discharged. Not claiming Purple Hearts or deployments. They kept him in and until his time was up and let him go..
Yes, I disagree with him being called a veteran, but he did serve and was release. We have other fish to fry.. Leave this sorry fat boy alone.. He’s not lying about anything. Just not telling the whole truth.
I read somewhere awhile ago that to claim Veteran status you had to serve 180 days of active duty somewhere other than a school. True or false?
That’s a good question. I just got done beating the crap out of myself and questioning my own military service. Of the 2 years 3 months 12 days, the vast majority was in school and at Walter Reed and Bethesda. Just 2 months and 19 days of Sea Duty. And for that, the VA gives me over $300,000 in disability benefits???? I tell you what, from now on, I’m not even calling myself a Veteran. In fact, nearly 5 years ago, on 18 August 2010, I voluntarily surrendered the disability benefits that I had been receiving for over 8 years.
I may be wrong, but doesn’t AR 135-178 specify that he could have received either an honorable discharge or a general under honorable conditions? I know my unit gave the latter to several folks around that same time.
HRC doesn’t care about that for the IRR folks. If you’re in the IRR, once your ETS hits, they honorably discharge you, plain n’ simple.
If the unit wanted to discharge someone for ht/wt or apft failure or what have you with a general discharge, they “could” do it. However, as I mention below, the Army Reserve isn’t interested in separating right now, they need to get their numbers up to max so they are keeping folks as best as possible, even in the IRR.
The Active Component is doing a reduction in force and the Reserves are critically short personnel and need another 15,000 to meet their 205,000 personnel number.
I took the “unsatisfactory participation” as not showing up to drill. If he was discharged for weight, then I stand corrected–to my knowledge, those are all honorable discharges, but unsatisfactory participation was usually dealer’s choice.
I took it the same way you did, D–nonparticipation is not showing up for drill. Of course, it could have been something his commander was happy about, because it was one less person on the fatboy program to track on his stats every month.
Unsatisfactory Participation is a very vague term to include many different types of issues.
for Reserves (and NG) you can give a Soldier a “U” for not showing up to drill, not completing required tasks, leaving early, etc etc.
You can use unsatisfactory participation to transfer personnel to the IRR, or to separate them from the service completely. But, in cases like this these days, they are shooting them to the IRR.
Ah, it just clicked. I forgot about the option to involuntarily transfer soldiers to the IRR. You are correct that HRC just rubber stamps the honorable. The commander just wanted him off the books, and that’s the fastest way to do it. Just submit a few documents for proof along with the DA Form 4651 to receive the orders from higher. It’s been awhile since I’ve been involved in it.
Problem we had a couple years ago was the 2-star was a dickheaded little troll who would find dirtbag non-participant phone numbers to call them directly.
Then, the chain of command would be told that they didn’t do enough because the 2-star would call and talk to a 400 pound E-2 and he’d give a sob story about how the unit didn’t treat him right and he felt excluded and like a victim.
So, of course the 2-star would side with the Private vs the chain of command and give out GOMORS like they were appetizers.
Not going to say who the 2-star was, but he’s retired now and his initials are JAJ…
The Army weight control program, or the Army Body Composition Program as they call it now (The ABC Program!) is filled with craziness. He was in the service because he did make it thru Basic and AIT. I saw plenty of fat bodies downrange. (The fattest Soldier I ever saw in uniform was a female in 3rd ID in Baghdad. She weighed more than me. Her plan was to get fat before deployment so they wouldn’t send her. Bad idea….she broke swivel chairs by sitting in them, etc etc.) The fact that the Army uses the American Medical Association’s ht/wt ratios for BMI is laughable. The AMA identifies ht/wt ratios for the “average” person. No Soldier is “average” and the average person doesn’t have to lug 100 pounds of gear for a year while getting fired on. (technically, they even consider professional body builders “morbidly obese” because they weigh more than the ht/wt ratio) I had to get taped and was always 20-22% bodyfat, but it was ridiculous because I’m not fat. I’ve seen a few good troops get screwed and pushed out because they had “Small Neck Syndrome” (SNS) and that system is unforgiving. So skinny douchebags who don’t know their job get promoted while “fat boys” are kicked to the curb. (I could talk about how females are allowed to be 2/3s fat and all that, but its another argument.) Regardless of that rant, it is policy. Just the same as someone serving in the military getting an honorable discharge is considered a “Veteran” is policy. I agree with Hondo on this one and he isn’t news. Granted, in ’05 we had 300 IRR personnel added to our ranks to deploy with. Some were great troops who did the job. Others made obvious immediately why they were in the IRR. Its okay though, the Army Reserve forgot all about what happened a decade ago when they called up IRR troops (MOST didn’t even report for mobilization and were just discharged without punishment). So, they are putting the dirtbags and those that can’t hang in the IRR and filling… Read more »
I always thought it was kind of jacked up that the Army would flag people for be “fat”, send them downrange and then deny them any awards because they were “fat”.
Even my “fatties” who went outside the wire on a regular basis. Oh and you failed an APFT while in country? flagged per BDE policy which directly contradicted Army policy.
The Army/military does not have the slightest understanding how fat and muscle compare with each other.
Muscle is pure protein. It is bundles of protein fibers held together with tissue called fascia. It contains lots of nerves and blood vessels but very little water. Generally speaking, muscle doesn’t jiggle when someone moves. If you see bodybuilders who are ‘ripped’, you see the individual bundles of muscle fiber with almost no fat showing at all, but they will weigh considerably more than they appear to.
Fat, on the other hand, is mostly water. If you see someone who is obese just walking, you will see a lot of jiggling that greatly resembles jello, for the same reason: it’s mostly water.
The real difference between the two is that a pound of fat will weigh the same as a pound of muscle, but the pound of fat will take up much more volume than the pound of muscle.
That means that two people of the same height who weigh exactly the same thing will not necessarily be the same shirt or dress size. When I was in the Navy, I was a size 10, which I think is now a size 6(?). I was extremely active. Someone said I was too skinny, so I asked him whaty he thought I weighed. He said 105, and I told him I weighed 128.
There is a huge difference. That asinine AMA scale is used by insurance companies to decide whether or not to deny health care coverage and life insurance to an applicant. I don’t think it has changed since the 1960s.
Always nice to hear from the medical perspective.
Funny thing, I am taller than my dad who was taller than his dad and I’m more muscular and beefed out than they are because I’ve been in the Army getting muscled up. My grandfather was in during WW2, but after that was fairly average looking.
I’ve been bringing up that dumb scale via the AMA for over a decade and keep getting the “yeah that is screwed up alright!” from high mucky-mucks but none of them lift a finger to change anything.
Caveat, they DID spend almost 10 million dollars studying a PT test that got “disqualified” as soon as they released it and Soldiers started talking about how much it sucked donkey balls, which was done for free basically. Go figure.
There’s what it is and what it ain’t.
This ain’t stolen valor. Period. Whatever else it is, it isn’t that because he is not making any claims that are not verifiably true.
Yes, I know there are folks who get worked up over the term ‘veteran’ because there is a legal term-of-art that refers to a “veteran” as being one who is entitled to Veteran’s Benefits (which Dial does not rate.)
But there is also the more generic and colloquial term “veteran” that is applied to those who served in the Armed Forces, regardless of status. Dial raised his right hand, went through Basic and AIT and was assigned to a unit. If he didn’t cover himself in glory, neither did he cover himself in disgrace.
Any reasonable person who is not a pedantic old curmudgeon would acknowledge that he qualifies as a “veteran” as the term is commonly used (even though he does not rate veteran’s benefits.)
Now, from a political standpoint, when writing one’s political resume, it’s generally not smart to draw attention to things that don’t make you look good.
Someone who tried out for the college football team, was initially accepted and then cut from the team after a month could probably tell friends and family that he’s a “former college football player” and be justified in doing so. But if he were to later run for office, his campaign manager would likely tell him that he’d be better off leaving that off of his official CV.
Martinjmper. You are on it. I guess I got sidetracked and didn’t see your comment when I posted mine below.
I agree with everything you just said. I don’t really get why everybody is dog-piling this guy, other than pure politics. I mean, if he had a (D) after his name, instead of an (R), the Arizona Republic would still be doing a deep dive into the details of his military service, right? Right?
Actually, they quite likely would. The Arizona Republic was one of the more conservative major papers left in the USA when I moved out of state some years ago. IMO it appears not to have changed that much since.
Hondo the Republic was bought by gannett a few years ago and has gone left. Or should I say drifting left.
Some months ago, I raised this issue of who is a Veteran in another thread. I can’t recall which one it was. Despite the innocence of my query, the response from some was rather abrupt. Anyway, when the dust settled, I came away from that thinking that a Veteran was someone served and was honorably discharged, whether AD, NG, Reserves, or whatever else there may be. Now, with this guy, it seems otherwise. I is confoosed.
That was me a few months back 2/17 Air Cav. I don’t recall which thread it was but something you said hit a nerve with me. Anyway, I’m not sure about legal definitions for veteran but it has always been my rule of thumb that if you signed up, did your tour and got out honorably you are a veteran. I know several Guard and Reserve folks and a few Active Duty who served 20+ years and for one reason or another never got deployed. Most of the time they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and their ticket was never pulled. To me those people are veterans; they did what was asked and did so with honor. I do have issue with this guy being called veteran for one reason: he was transferred to IRR because he couldn’t meet standards. Legal definitions aside I wouldn’t use the term veteran when referring to him.
http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=58475&cpage=1
That’s the link. It was a post about Leonard Nimoy’s death. I see we exchanged Fuck Yous in some comments. A good time was had by all, I’d say.
Indeed. A few hearty fuck yous never hurt anyone.
Dial said, speaking to reporters with repect to his military service, “shut up and pass me a donut”.
That is all!
Update to above comment:
In addition, he demanded a 32 oz. chocolate milk shake with mini-marshmellows just to wash down the donut.
Fat boy want candy bar!!!
I knew a guy that was terminally in the “fat boy” program. HWe called him Buddha. He was a damned good soldier and could PT most others into the ground. Yet the Army refused to allow him to reup because of he didn’t meet the height/weight standards. They lost a damned good troop and a ace tower dog. Dial may have been in the same boat.
Bingo.
When I was a youngster, we had a CPT commanding one of the companies in our Battalion. He was about 6ft 3in and always was borderline on weight. He definitely didn’t look like a “lean, mean, fighting machine”.
The guy could do 6 minute miles for 10k. Over hills. In Seoul.
I spent pretty much 100% of my time on the fatass program. Generally “voluntarily” because I was “borderline.” (That’s code for me being too heavy, but everybody liked me too much to sink my career over it.) I PT’d my rear off and got damn awesome at it, but if anything that made me even heavier. I could have reenlisted, but I got out and went civ. Now they pay me more to do the same thing–two birds.
Had a new platoon sergeant come in who said he was gonna stress PT. He looked kinda like a bowling ball (coincidentally actually WAS a pro bowler) so one of the platoon athletes says ‘yeah, right’ – just a tad too loud. PSG told him to go get his PT stuff on and meet him out front – then ran 10K on him in just at ahalf hour. The gazelle was heard to comment “he kinda runs like the Incredible Hulk… but really, really fast.”
I guess it’s time for my two cents, isn’t it?
I put in two (count ’em) hitches between 1967 and 1974, split by finishing college, but never deployed, so what does that make me?
The LIKELIHOOD of my deploying anywhere at all was slim. It was easier for women to get sent overseas in WWII and Korea than during Vietnam, so what does that make me?
I could get into a combat camera group now, but I couldn’t then even if I went to “C” school for it, so what does that make me?
The closest I ever got to any kind of combat area was a bunch of hippie protesters in WDC when I was on a courier run in a Navy vehicle to the Pentagon from the Navy Photo Center, so what does that make me?
IF that retired SEAL thinks that Dial’s 4 years AD/4 IRR and an HD, don’t make him a vet, perhaps he’d like to meet with me personally and discuss it after he returns the piece of my mind I’d like to give him.
Dial may not have the most spectacular record in the world but he apparently didn’t get into any kind of trouble, nor has he claimed to be anything other than what he was. I’m sure that some of you have some spots on your own records you don’t want to bring up. No one is perfect, after all. Ditto, regarding Dial’s weight. Perhaps you should look in the mirror before you go any further with that, and maybe check the tire around your own waists.
Ex-PH2: I think the problem most here have is the fact that Dial (1) never served on extended active duty after basic training, and (2) was a non-participant in his Reserve unit.
The former makes his claim of being a “veteran” of any type legally problematic. His making it thru basic and going to a Reserve unit does meet the more commonly-understood criteria of a vet being someone who “served”, but he doesn’t have enough active duty time to qualify for most VA bennies. I don’t have much of a problem with him calling himself a “USAR vet”, but he is IMO pushing the envelope a bit by using that phrase.
The latter – being transferred to the IRR for non-participation, regardless of why – IS an issue. For that bit of irresponsible behavior, Dial could easily have received a General/OTH discharge had his unit really wanted to push the issue. IMO he was quite lucky – at other times/places, that could easily have happened. In Dial’s case, it did not.
I’d have no issue with him had he said he “served in the USAR”. Technically, he’s probably within the bounds of common understanding definition by saying he’s a USAR “vet”; and to his credit, he didn’t claim anything else.
But his military record IMO is definitely nothing to be proud of.
Okay, Hondo, but unless he did something dreadful, he did have 4 years of active duty and couldn’t meet weight requirements, so he was sent to the inactive part of the Reserves, if I understand that article correctly.
It appears that he did actually not do anything wrong, just did not lose enough poundage to suit the wt:ht requirement. And we do not have the real circumstances regarding that. As it is, he didn’t claim any service other than what he had. This isn’t stolen valor. It’s just nitpicking.
He did not serve 4 years active duty, he was a reservist who only completed half his obligated time. Not sure where you are pulling the AD bit from.
I got it from this part of the article.
‘…after joining the U.S. Army Reserve in 1996, he got in trouble for his weight, triggering a personnel action against him and making him ineligible for promotion. Four years into his eight-year commitment, he was transferred….’
Virtually any initial entry into the military – active or reserve, officer or enlisted – today has an 8 year total military commitment (prior to either 1980 or 1981 it was 6 years ). As an Active duty enlistment, it is typically served “split” – e.g., 4 years active, 4 years reserve. (Many times the remaining non-active time is “served” in the IRR; other times the individual joins a Reserve or Guard unit.) You don’t get a final discharge until the reserve commitment is completed.
Reserve enlistments – both Federal reserves and Army/Air National Guard – have the same 8 year total commitment. However, they may be served 100% in the Reserve Components, and often are.
This man enlisted for the US Army Reserve. His 8-year commitment was 100% in the US Army Reserve. His only active duty appears to have been for his initial entry training. The rest of his service was all in the Reserve Component, not on active duty.
There’s nothing wrong with that – provided you actually, you know, fulfill the commitment you made by freaking showing up for duty as directed. Being moved to the IRR due to “non-participation” kinda means he didn’t do that. He easily could have received a General/OTH discharge instead.
Okay, that’s much more clear. The article implies that he did put in 4 years AD, then was sent to the IRR.
I did almost half of my time in the RC (mostly ARNG but a couple years in the USAR) and saw a lot of guys transfer to the IRR to finish their commitments.
In most cases it was because of work conflicts. Easy to understand, when the boss expects you to work weekends and the ARNG also expects you to work weekends (well, that one weekend a month) you’ve got to ask yourself: Which one of these guys is paying my mortgage and putting food on my table? It’s not the USAR/ARNG so if something’s got to go, it’s that.
When I was a PSG/Det Sgt I had an initial counseling form where I discussed this very issue with my soldiers. I explained to them that the Reserves/guard was a commitment that I expected them to make a priority. I said that an occasional work conflict was excusable but that if they had repeated work conflicts then they needed to make a decision as to which commitment was more important. I harbored no hard feelings towards those who chose to go to the IRR, I understood their dilemma.
The Reserve Components are not for everyone. In some respects, it takes a greater level of commitment to be in the RC than it does to be on active duty. After all, on AD, the military is your job, period. They pay you, they take care of you (such as it is) and they are responsible for you.
But in the RC it’s different. The unit will lay responsibilities on you, and they will demand commitment, but they’re not the ones who are keeping you fed and housed, they’re not the ones taking care of your family. Serving two masters (the unit and your civilian job) is not easy.
It’s also no surprise that in most reserve/guard units you will find a large number of college students and ‘casually employed’ people. Because people who have high-powered, demanding jobs generally can’t get away one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer.
“Casually employed”. Reminds me of a Cobra Gold exercise in the late 1990’s. I deployed with 7th Comm Bn out of Oki. There was an Army Reserve unit out of Hawaii that was at our location. They had some guy that they really had no use for (MOS wise), so they sent him over to Comm Detatchment to play with us. He said that he was the only from his unit that could get away from his full time job for the exercise. So Hack asks what does he do? Landscaper. Probably the only causation landscaper in Hawaii. I don’t think that his extended absence had a negative impact on the continuing success of his civilian employer.
Hondo, when I enlisted the 1st and 2nd time, I had a choice of 2, 3, 4 or 6 years of AD.
That was up to the end of the Vietnam war, unless it changed during Carter’s term.
2and 3 year enlistments had a very limited career field to chose from, mostly infantry or any school less than a few weeks. Nowadays in the Marine Corps, all comm maintenance (and possibly comm operators) is a five year enlistment due to length of school.
The Army still had a few 2 year enlistments in the late 1970s/early 1980s, as I recall. But as Hack Stone observed, I also recall they were both rare and for only a few career fields.
Can’t say anything about the status of the 3-year enlistment. Don’t know if that still exists and/or when it might have gone to that “great paperwork repository in the sky”.
Letting him transfer was being nice. Now days reserve units chapter you
A guy gets his degree after doping and drinking his way through seven years of on again/off again courses and meets the bare minimum for a degree. Another guy gets the same degree from the same school in four after studying diligently and receiving all As/Bs in his courses. Now, when both go for a job requiring a college degree, both cite the same degree on their applications. Wrong? Hell no it’s not wrong. It’s now up to HR and the hiring process to separate the two. Know who got the job? The guy who was on the seven-year plan. His Veteran status as a former Reservist won the day.
I remember the good old days when Steve Cushman told us that we defined the term “veteran” too narrowly and didn’t include ROTC cadets with two years in the program.
We probably define “former County Commissioner” too narrowly in his view as well. I wonder what his latest scam is…
True story – in basic West Point Cadets came to do whatever the hell they do; observe and stuff. I asked a Cadet – “We are told to Salute you, but where do you fall in with regards to Rank?” He said “Technically we outrank a Command Sergeant Major.”
So – that evening one of the DSs were walking around as we shined boots; he asked about what we though of the Cadets. I relayed my story. The Drill LAUGHED out loud. I was shocked. He calmed himself…”Private..show those guys respect – its important. But he don’t out-rank shit.”
A long time ago, Air Force Academy cadets were visiting the base where I was assigned. The Wing Commander sent out notices to remind us the cadets out ranked CMSgts and were to be treated accordingly. He went on to say if the cadets gave an order, the order was to be followed IAW Art 92 UCMJ.
Of course, the Colonel didn’t know if the cadets can’t find you they can’t order you – the “Busy Man” scenario.
I’m shocked that an Air Force Colonel doesn’t know shit about the UCMJ! Say it ain’t so!
Basically from what you posted, this “Wing Commander” just handed a bunch of college kids Command Authority over his personnel, up to and including his own CMSgt. (Way to go Fokker) Its no wonder why the Air Force is having leadership problems now. Badum-tish!
Cadets do not inherently have “command authority” over enlisted. Cadets are “students” and have yet to receive their “Commission” giving them that authority. (Article 89) Cadets cannot “rate” Army NCOs (per AR 623-3). Hence, Cadets cannot technically give orders to NCOs (NCOs have ONE Chain of Command, per AR 623-3.)
In the reserves there is the “SMP” or Simultaneous Membership Program in which ROTC cadets drill with a reserve unit to gain experience. In that respect, they are normally placed in a Lieutenant position to learn how to do the job. They might be given authority over a platoon or some personnel. Though they are supposed to have a mentor and NCO standing there with them smacking them in the head if they try to overstep their position. However, that NCO “works for” and is “rated” by someone else.
At the same time, many ROTC handbooks will indicate and expect their Cadets to stand at Parade Rest for NCOs and show respect for the NCO’s rank.
Cadets cannot be “Superior Commissioned Officers” until they receive their commission. However, if a “Commissioned” officer puts them in charge of you (God help you), then you are disrespecting the authority of that officer with command authority over you.
What is ridiculous is how many former ROTC commissioned officers are so ignorant when it comes to treatment and use of Cadets. (If I hear another Officer say that cadets are “third lieutenants” I’m going to stab myself in the knee, or maybe that officer as long as they aren’t “superior” to me.)
Eric: you might want to rethink your comment above, at least as it applies to service academy cadets.
Per Federal law, service academy cadets and midshipmen are serving on active duty with one rank: “Cadet” or “Midshipman”. It is a special status defined by Federal law, is the result of a Presidential appointment, and is not enlisted service. See 38 USC 101(b)(21); 38 USC 1965(1)(d); and Title 10, Chapter 403. The latter chapter applies to USMA alone, but similar provisions in Federal law exist for the other Service Academies (USNA, USAFA, USCGA).
I’m not a lawyer, but it appears to me that that puts service academy cadets on the “officer side of the house” – just like WOs who never received a commission.
That said: any Cadet (from any source) who tries to “pull rank” is almost always being a bigger fool than a 2LT doing so. And most 2LT’s learn PDQ that that’s a damnfool thing to do.
I read what you referred to Hondo and I’m not a lawyer either. However, while they are “Cadets” they do not receive their “Commission” until completion of the service academy requirements and graduation. Even at USMA.
As far as “superior commissioned officer” that is very specifically detailed in the UCMJ as to the definition of it. (articles 89 and 90) Otherwise, any “Commissioned” Officer could walk around base and say, “You! Come with me, you work for me now!” Also flows into the “lawful” order area. Cadets don’t have that lawful order giving ability in normal circumstances. (Unless authorized that authority by a superior commissioned officer to his particular personnel).
Again, its a tough call Hondo, but there is always plenty of confusion with Cadets. I’m not even 100% sure of anything with them. Other than the fact they are like “tits on a bull” as SFC D says below. (Awesome!)
For UCMJ purposes, Warrant Officers are included with NCOs and Petty Officers (Article 91)
When I was a 1SG, I had a 2LT who was dumb enough to screw with me. He went to his OBC/BOLC and even was told there “whatever you do, don’t fuck with the 1SG!” so when he got back he realized how badly he screwed up and even stood at parade rest for me all the time. I let him ease up and relax after about 6 months. mwahahahaha
My Pa (LtCol D) constantly referred to cadets as third Lieutenants. Which was generally followed with “tits on a bull”.
I like the honorable discharge standard, thanks to the Leonard Nimoy discussion back when. If you served in the United States military and were honorably discharged, you’re a Veteran. All other cases and determinants I leave to others.
Or there’s another test, TO WHIT: Wave seven pounds of cheese under their nose. If they start drooling and spouting nonsense about cyberbullying and “the cadre”, you know it was a case of erroneous enlistment. Then if you really want to be thorough, ask them to spell SWEADEN!
He served for FOUR years. And he was sent home. I get it. I’m on the fence here. He did it. He enlisted and did SOMETHING. If he said “…having served in the Army Reserve….” in passing would have probably been a better way to mention it.
Just today my coworker and I were talking about our GS13 director. The guy is a retired National Guard SGM, however he does NOT get Veterans Preference for Reduction in Force or for Government Hiring because he never spent more than even 30 days on duty. Our director is a jerk about it though, and tries to ‘wear his rank’ acting like a COMMANDER more than a director/manager of civilians of pretty high grade (mostly 11s and 12s).
My point is what came next, though – my coworker said something that elicited a “F you dude” from me. My coworker said “…hell, I left active duty as Corporal (Marines). And I’m even a REAL veteran because I served in combat (Somalia).”
My point is this – people should be careful denigrating the service of others who aren’t otherwise particularly aggrandizing their service.
I served; I didn’t deploy operationally because I wasn’t asked to. I wear that. But I’d be damned to let anyone truly question my status.
The AZ guy? I think it’s probably a non-issue from the limited information I have. It’s close, though.
I’ll just leave this here… (hint, bottom of page 3 “Active service requirement)
The VA’s criteria of who is a Veteran is what I always went by, seems they don’t consider you one unless you did 24 continuous months of service as active duty, this rules out nearly 99% of Reservists who never were deployed.
http://www.benefits.va.gov/BENEFITS/benefits-summary/SummaryofVANationalGuardandReserve.pdf
Fwiw.. 7 years Reservist here, never claimed to be a Vet, uniformed or animal-type because even back then we were led to believe with erroneous info that you only needed 180 days continuous active service, even with extra schooling after OSUT, I missed that by 25 days.
Hey Olaf – thank you for serving, brother. Or sister..but probably brother. 🙂
Olaf: the “180 consecutive days” bit was post-Vietnam rules – I seem to recall that was the case prior to Sep 1980. That changed to “2 years continuous/full period of service to which recalled to active duty” in Sep 1980 for most entrants, and for all entering the military in Oct 1981.
The rules for “veteran” status for VA benefits eligibility have bounced around over the years, particularly for VA home loans.
This chart is perhaps the best single “snapshot” of the issue, historically speaking, I’ve ever found. I think – but am not sure – that eligibility for educational benefits has usually required the same service.
http://www.benefits.va.gov/HOMELOANS/purchaseco_eligibility.asp
A person can also be eligible for some VA bennies but not others.
A drilling reservist gets a GI Bill benefit from the VA. It isn’t as much as the Active Duty version, nor the 9/11 GI Bill version, but they do get that option.
There are other benefits they can receive, it just depends.
If you “retire” from the USAR after 20 years of service, even with no deployment, you will receive certain VA benefits. (If you are “injured” while on duty as a reservist, even in a weekend, and have an LOD, you can request disability)
A 20-year reservist (though it takes about a year after you hit 20 for that “20-year letter” to show up) doesn’t necessarily deploy, might not get most VA benefits, has to wait until they are 60 to receive a pension, doesn’t do 180 days to 2 years active duty….are they still “not a veteran” after that?
There are more of them than you realize in that capacity.
Eric: as someone who retired from the Reserve Components, I’ll assure you that I’m at least passingly familiar with what “grey area” means. (smile)
As for whether the classical “career reservist” who never was recalled to active duty is a “veteran”, that depends on the specific situation and purpose in question. For preference in Federal employment (and some states/localities), almost certainly not. For some – but not all – VA benefits and services, yes. For VA medical care, if injured LOD and rated to have a service-connected condition, yes; otherwise no.
I’d consider them a “vet” by the common definition – they raised their hand, and served as required. In general, an individual can only serve where and when your orders state you will serve; you can’t always “pick and choose”. But others might not consider them in the same light, and Federal employment preference certainly doesn’t. Federal law says they are for some purposes – and aren’t for others.
Are they a “combat vet” or an “Iraq vet” or an “Afghan vet”? Get real. If they didn’t qualify for the campaign medal, no. To claim otherwise is IMO insulting to those who did.
At age 60, such an individual becomes a full military retiree. Period. But that doesn’t change their status for VA purposes, nor does that change their history.
The situation is . . . complicated. Not sure how to best do it, but IMO there really needs to be a statutory clean-up of this confusing tangle.
I agree Hondo.
Excellent Idea by the way. Mark! Call your buddy the SMA up and have him bring all us TAH commentators to the Pentagon for a month or two.
We’ll get this veterans confusion cleaned up quicker and more efficiently than any of those bean counters at echelons above reality!
And I feel fortunate that I got to deploy 3 times so I don’t ever have to worry about it. I do know a few types that begged and pleaded to get on a deployment and were told “no, you are too ESSENTIAL back here in the rear!” (Hated hearing that said to anyone.)
And I wasn’t pointing this one at you in any bad way, I don’t want to shine on a Hondo.
I think this is a great discussion we’ve started thanks to the cake eater in the photo above.
I admit that I never made weight, ever. At MEPS, they tried calling me too fat before my recruiter forced them to tape me. The doctor told me he didn’t trust the tape and decided to dunk me too. I was 6’4″ tall and weighed 225. I taped to 15%, I dunked to 12%.
Because I didn’t make height/weight in BCT and AIT, I was tossed into the fat-body program until my initial APFT. My 1SG in BCT and CO in AIT thought it silly that a recruit who scored 100 in the PU and SU (and 68 in the 2MR).
After BCT and AIT, I found out that I lost muscle mass because of lack of resistance machines for workout and fewer calories/only eating three times a day.
It’s called working out. I kept the fat off, even though I was eating close to 5000 calories a day, by working out. Then again, I also worked at a gym so go figure.
9/80 is when the bennies were changed up and other time period after? Clinton, maybe or GHWB?
Two questions that would cross a Rabbi’s eyes:
How many angels could dance on the head of a pin?
Is Jeff Dial a Veteran?
Don’t really care if some of you don’t think I’m a veteran since my entire military service was with the Air National Guard. The DoD apparently thinks I’m close enough to being one that they send me a few fists full of money each month and gave me one of those funky cards that says I’m retired military, after having sent me quite a bit of additional money over more than 3 decades for doing a few months AD here and a few more there. Like so many others, we did what was asked of us, and kept ourselves fit and ready to serve on our own dime. No letting others pay for every hangnail and stubbed toe – we did our career development and required surgeries on our own time.
But if it makes some of you feel better about your own service to call all the rest of us “not really veterans,” knock yourselves out. We know what we did, and what we were prepared to do but were never asked to do.
But, are you saying that all those fellows who served 2, 4, maybe 6 years AD and saw no combat are also not really veterans? Just asking because many of us did as much active duty over the decades as they did, just in shorter bursts, often purposefully limited to 178 or 179 days.
Guess I’ll just never understand the mentality which sees some who served honorably enough to receive an honorable discharge as something other than a veteran. Funny thing is that each time we reservists left one of those months long AD situations, we got another DD-214. Maybe some of the folks think you can’t be a real veteran unless you only have one? 😉
Hondo… AZRepulsive is so far left these days that’s it’s about to fall off the coast of California… We’re halfway between PHX and La… get same from both sides…
Wuf… That’s a understatement it’s fighting for first place for leftwing backup toilet paper
It’s a non-issue for me. Clearly someone is out to slur him. The guy did serve. He went in the reserves, couldn’t make weight so they non-rec’d him and didn’t activate him.
Not exactly Audie Murphy, but not a poser either
Apparently, this story isn’t going away. See here: http://azc.cc/1JG3xwb