Parminder Singh Shergill and the crazed vet myth
You may remember that several months ago, in California Sikh Parminder Singh Shergill was killed by police when he threatened them with a knife. He was a combat veteran, and of course, everyone in the media and his family blamed “PTSD” and the government’s failure to treat him properly for the incident, like this headline from New India Times;
And this line from the Sacramento Bee;
“It’s not the Lodi police who let this young man down,” [Kuldeep Dhatt, president of Lodi’s Sikh Temple] said. “It’s the country. He was a veteran, and he didn’t receive proper treatment. A young man’s life is lost. It’s a wrongful death however you look at it. But we have to move forward and start looking for solutions, and that was what we hoped this meeting would accomplish.”
Yeah, well, we got his military records and he may have had mental problems, but it probably wasn’t PTS. He was a Gulf War I veteran, but he was a generator mechanic in a support battalion;
I find it difficult to believe that anything happened to him in that position that would cause him to have PTS. But, hey, PTS explains everything, right? All veterans are victims. And the explanation lets the police off the hook for not using something less lethal than bullets on a crazed veteran Sikh with a knife.
As long as everything a veteran does is somehow related to PTS, we’re never going to overcome the myths that revolve around veterans and the “crazed veteran” stereotypes. This guy was probably a little crazy, but it wasn’t related to being a generator mechanic in a support battalion for five months.
Category: Veterans Issues
“I find it difficult to believe that anything happened to him in that position that would cause him to have PTS.”
I’m with you 200%, but take the average granola eating, Birkenstock wearing nut and if you exposed them to the “horrors” of boot camp, they’d be convinced that would cause PTSD. I’m sure of it.
I’m not here to be a dick, and I for sure don’t think pts makes a person violent — we all have a responsibility for controlling ourselves and our actions, but sometimes the bullshit and judgement flies high here.
I have a relative who deals with post deployment issues from the Gulf War. He was a computer guy, but that didn’t mean he wasn’t traumatized by his experiences when they went forward. And that doesn’t mean he is a pussy.
We all “should” know that a service members mos doesn’t mean that they won’t find themselves mixed up in a bad situation during war. Unless your entire experience of war is watching youtube videos from OIF and Rambo 1 through 15.
Behavioral abnormalities in adults are most often attributed to a diminished capacity. With the exclusion of certain preexisting physiological onsets the causality points to environmental events that modify behavior. Most all of us are subjected to traumatic stress during our lives. When a traumatic event is coupled with guilt or sudden onset the ego intuitively rejects acceptance. Hence the ‘denial’ phase of the grief cycle. Fixation during that phase of the cycle manifests itself in behavior that is observed as aberrant by most those not subjected to the associated stress. I have spent decades dealing with individuals concerning these issues. I can offer my own attestation to the existence of post traumatic stress, almost all of us can. What I reject is the trend to ‘normalize’ a fixation or stagnation in this stage of development. Rejecting a swift kick in the ass as a treatment modality is unconscionable. There is a current social reinforcement of the hypothesis: I have been subjected to traumatic stress therefore prolonged abnormal behavior is acceptable. Reenforce this with financial rewards, special recognition, and a social reluctance to confront the behavior and it is perpetuated.
Insofar as Veteran Victimization is concerned the aforementioned hypothesis is perfectly suited with a minor modification: I am a veteran therefore prolonged abnormal behavior is expected. I should receive special attention, financial rewards, and the general public will not confront my behavior. Since I have just a modicum of experience in these matters let me offer the following advice to my fellow veterans that are stagnated in any particular stage of development: You are not special, you do not deserve special attention, you do not deserve to receive money, and there is at least one veteran in this world that will call you out on your bullshit. Have a nice day.
You mean like the VA’s essentially NQA acceptance of PTSD claims today, Dave?
I observe it being far more destructive than that. There are questions being asked, the acceptance of the answers is what needs to be brought into question. I still say we should have a section in this site dedicated to what I describe as Gullible Fucks. Its not exposing the fake veteran that will have the greatest impact, exposing the gullible that spoon up his nonsense will. Its not the one who claims traumatic stress that perpetuates the problem as much as those that enable the ongoing behavior as acceptable. Yes, the VA has a big part to play. With the current scrutiny on the VA there will be pressure to follow this trend.
Dave: no argument from me. I was only offering one example of many.
As a society, we really do need to adopt the old Russian proverb, “Доверяй, но проверяй” (“Doveryai, no proveryai” – “Trust, but verify”).
Dave Hardin…Thank you sir for your helpful and informed input. You said it very well and offered the true resolution to this issue of PTSD.
Aside from casting aspersions on a single population demographic, i.e., veterans, why is it that this wide brushstroke is not applied by the media to rape victims, to victims of domestic violence, to children who are victims of pedophiles, and so on?
Your analysis is fine, Dave, but it doesn’t answer that question. The media seem to be focused entirely on vets as victims of PTSD, as if it happens to no one else, and we all know this is completely not true.
A great deal of what is lumped under the term post-traumatic stress is suppressed anger that has not been allowed to be decompressed.
I’m a veteran, and I deeply resent the mere idea that if I say anything about it to the ill-informed public, I’ll get labeled with something I don’t deserve.
The application of empathy to legitimate victims is understandable. Let us apply the same standard to members of the military while on active duty as an example. If an individual joins the service during a time of war, there is most certainly a reasonable expectation of being deployed to a combat zone resulting in traumatic stress. If an individual volunteers to join a group with the reasonable expectation that they will be raped resulting in traumatic stress are they still a victim? We can see from that comparison how bizarre any collation might be. A victim of a violent crime is subjected to traumatic stress with out a doubt. I have sadly encountered too many of them. There are a myriad of treatment modalities to help them through the recovery process. Notwithstanding that fact, yes for a few there still may be a moment down the road where a swift kick in the ass is warranted. I agree we tend to blur the boundaries of what a victim is when it comes to domestic violence. I could write a book on the dynamics of abusive relationships but so many already have. Tragic as they end up, I have never met a victim of domestic violence that knew from the beginning there was most certainly a reasonable expectation that it would happen. I am sure that there are those few that did. Substance abuse is extremely tenacious. I believe from my experience that it is the single biggest cause of abuse and crime violent or otherwise. Let us not ignore religion. A quick youtube search on shunning is shockingly awakening. The abuse levied on children and young adults subjected to irrational religious beliefs is devastating. Religion can make normally rational people do the most disgusting things you can imagine. Last year 5 infants died in New York City alone because they were infected with herpes when their Rabbi sucked the blood from their penis during circumcision. Most of us would say, ‘What parent would allow this to happen?’, but the practice is protected by law. I loved your comment. This is… Read more »
Your concerns about being labeled might be justified. I do not know your particular circumstances. It is certainly not incumbent upon you to fight every battle. Most people are decent, kind, and honorable albeit ill informed. We should all pick our battles and muster the intestinal fortitude to put up a good fight. Your energetic contribution to this forum makes a difference. Resentment is corrosive to the soul. Remember that we all have a right to be here no less than the stars or the trees, even the dull and the ignorant for they too have their story. I have read many of your posts without comment and please know; agree or not I admire your courage to be heard.
This has been going on so long, I just don’t see it ever changing especially now that the pendulum for PTSD has swung from “fuck you” to “everybody’s got it”. I predicted this a long time ago.
Now, for all you Iraqi/Afghan vets. Warning! Not that you already don’t know it but Hollywood is at it again. Yes, the Muslim is a quasi hero Doctor and the perps are, you got it Psycho Vets of the current wars. The movie: NON-STOP starring Liam Nieson. My wife and I almost through our popcorn through the screen except it was our own TV. I guess Hollywood has put out a movie or two about the current wars that are good….but I was so pissed I couldn’t sleep after the movie. Not that a Moslem can’t be a good guy, but to do the Psycho Vet thing again? I would boycott any movie like this. Too bad they already got my rental money. Beware! We are still fighting that image. Don’t let them do it to you.
1AirCav69, why on earth would you PAY to see a movie with Liam Neeson in it? He’s made maybe two good movies, and the rest were tripe.
PH-2, it was 1.99 and we couldn’t find anything else that even looked worth watching. They don’t make movies for people my age anymore. I also agree that he’s just pounding out stupid movies to make a buck. It was my last.
My father was driving the family car home from work one day long ago when a young lady blew a stop sign and her car struck my father’s sedan. He received a nice gash in his head and walked around with a stiff neck for about a week. He was a working man and the money he could have received for his injuries would have been nice. But he made no claim, other than for repair of the essential vehicle (Back then, most families had only one car.) Today, some people would call him stupid for foregoing what would have been some free money. His attitude, however, was that a few aspirin and some Ben Gay would do the trick. And they did. He was an exception, I’d say. If free money is available, there are usually more than enough takers (and fakers).
I once worked in a shipyard where one coworker insisted that I was dumb for not acting like I was going nuts while I was on AD for the pension. His words “Maaan, you shoulda acted crazy and got the free money, my Cousin did that, he gets that free crazy money every month as long as he lives, you stupid fo’ not takin’ dat!”.
Me, I came back in and did two more Overseas Tour in the ME instead, and I haven’t applied for anything from the VA either.
The key is that his family also claimed PSD.
Can we really put the full blame on the media, when some military members and their families also automatically claim PSD for every little thing in life?
Yes we can blame the media. Reference the ‘gullible’ argument above. (BTW-Kudos Dave Hardin). If the media called BS these poor, afflicted vets and their families wouldn’t get away with it.
As much as I hate to say it, much of the general public does seem to be as stupid and uninterested in truth as the media seems to think. People do like the comfort of their cultural myths. It keeps them from having to expend the energy of thinking.
If he had PTSD, I say it came from his Sikh upbringing and not his time as a generator mechanic in the Gulf War. Sikhs are an austere and strict people in their religious beliefs, family dynamics and worldview. Raised in that would have given me PTSD way before I joined the Army. Just my one humble opinion here.
Dunno about that, Sparks. The few Sikhs I’ve known were pretty well-grounded folks. A strict upbringing isn’t automatically a bad one.
That said, the guy very well could have had PTSD, or some other headspace and timing issue. However, I just don’t see those issues being related to his military service from 1989-1992. Being a generator mechanic at a Corps-level maintenance battalion isn’t generally a particularly onerous – or dangerous – assignment.
Hondo…I see your point. The Sikhs I know are very well grounded as you say and no that is not a bad thing in and of itself. The family I know is very totalitarian and autocratic. But that is just one family and the dad has his own personality, you might say, as we all do, regardless of faith or beliefs. There are good, bad, do nothing, hard core and then well rounded and grounded families in every race and religion. So my one example is probably not a good measure of all Sikhs.
Hondo, this guy would have been in the 3rd Arm Div trains as they romped across Iraq during the ground phase. He may have seen and heard a few things, but I doubt he had to dodge any bullets. Corps level support for 3AD was from Log Base Echo, and later from Log base Nelligen.
http://www.3ad.org/desert-storm/division-spt-cmd/122d-msb/
C C Senior: yep. Provided forward support from either 3 AD rear or DIVARTY HQ. Pretty sure neither place was ever even remotely threatened. The only shots he would have heard fired in anger would have been from friendly artillery, or maybe from an air raid way off in the distance. He probably was too far back to even hear tanks firing.
I stand by what I said above. This guy’s headspace and timing issues weren’t from him being “in the sh!t” while serving on active duty.
I am a bit torn here. We all know vets who have come back from combat with issues and need help. Last I checked that kind of help was VA job number 1 (not saying the VA sees it that way – they are more interested in solar panels and union issues). However, we all also know folks (vets or otherwise) who claim PTS as an excuse for unacceptable conduct.
If you have a problem, get help. There is absolutely no shame in that. Sometimes, getting that help is, for a short period, a full time commitment. However, it is not a lifetime excuse. Get the help, get the coping skills, accept the new normal, and carry on.
One of the problems seems to be that slackers and phonies are clogging the system so that people who need help can’t get it. How many phonies here have high VA disability ratings? Each one of those clowns takes appointments away from folks who do have a problem and do need help.
There has to be a balance. We can’t assume that service = PTS, but we also can’t assume that PTS = malingerer. Sometimes a swift kick is the solution, but sometimes it isn’t. At the moment, I am more inclines to give mental health services to those who don’t really need them than to risk not giving them to those who do. I think the solution is probably at the payment end (i.e. Disability pay) rather than the service end.
In short, PTS is a condition some, but not all vet have; it is not an excuse. If you have it, get help. If you don’t, don’t clog up the system using it as an excuse.
Susan…Very well said. It goes along with the old adage of, “sometimes a person needs a pat on the back and sometimes a swift kick in the pants”. Hard to always know which, but when it comes to posers taking VA services and benefits from real veterans, it is always a swift kick in the butt…all the way out of the door and out of the system. Hopefully, we will get there someday.
Anything that occurs while a veteran was in the military could lead to a VA disability for PTSD. Events such as training accidents, car accidents, or assault might lead to PTSD. Without more information, we just don’t know what happened.
I agree that generator mechanics are less likely to experience traumatic events than a veteran in a MOS with a greater injury risk such as Army or Marine combat arms, aircraft carrier flight deck sailors, or most any job in a special operations force.
Two guys I know were diagnosed with PTSD by the VA for really serious car accidents. We should remember that car accidents are the most common cause of PTSD among civilians.
So while I am not as skeptical as Jonn about PTSD in this case, it still seems unlikely without more information to explain why.
I also noticed that he got out as an E3 after only eight years, that doesn’t exactly say “High speed, low drag” to me!
PI: PFC rank might not be an issue.
Per his record of assignments, he only did 3 years active duty – 5 Jul 1989 to 4 Jul 1992. He left AD as a PFC. The rest of his 8 years was DEP and post-discharge reserve time, most likely in the IRR.
Lack of a GCM could be an indicator of poor behavior. But it could also be an indicator of a unit that blew off doing the right thing for a guy who was ETSing.
Generator mechanic school should have taught him that you don’t bring a knife to a gun fight.
lol what a douche. Him and his family and the asshole media that loves to sensationalize shit for views.
My earlier post Disappeared . This roughly looks like sucide by Police. His pain became too great and could not see any way to change his life. Listen up you pencil neck geeks reporters.PTSD does not make any one a mad dog killer. How many NYC police, Firefighters and EMTs go on a killing spree? I am waiting? Joe
Correct me if you think I’m wrong, but I think the USPS has created more murderers than any PD, FD, or Military Unit, remember the expression “going postal”?
The only problem I have with some of what is written above is that is sounds suspiciously like 1) You’re in a rough job and got wasted -get over it and b) Rape victims – you signed up in a male-dominated field and shit happens – get over it. While I agree many folks do indeed need to just get over themselves, there are legitimately folks who need help doing that. And I don’t EVER buy that about rape. Hopefully I am misinterpreting some of the posts?