38 Years Ago Today
Can’t believe I forgot this. Saigon fell 38 years ago today.
Trivia note: though this is perhaps the most well-known and iconic photo of of US evacuation operations that occurred that day, the photo is neither the roof of the US Embassy nor a US military aircraft. The photo is of an Air America helicopter evacuating CIA Station Saigon personnel from a Saigon apartment complex where they were housed. UPI “got it wrong” when they originally captioned the photo 38 years ago.
The US evacuation of Saigon (Operation Frequent Wind) is worth reading about if you have the time. Some really riveting stories there – including those of the only 2 RVANF O-1 “Bird Dog” landings on a US carrier.
Hat tip to TAH reader John Robert Mallernee for the reminder.
Category: Historical
And it was nearly 2 years to the day, AFTER, the war had “ended,” after the last US Troop (an AF MSgt) left Viet Nam.
Our Marines and Troops served well on this day, protecting US Diplomats, and as many others as they could muster, but the war had “ended” two years earlier, and the Military was NOT defeated.
WOTN: correct. But the often quoted exchange between COL Harry G. Summers, Jr. and his North Vietnamese counterpart, Colonel Tu, NVA, is perhaps more instructive.
During one of his postwar liaison trips to Hanoi, COL Summers told Colonel Tu, “You know, you never beat us on the battlefield.” Colonel Tu thought for a moment, then responded: “That may be so, but it is also irrelevant.”
It is indeed possible to win virtually every battle and still lose a war. A fatally flawed strategy – like ours in Vietnam – pretty much guarantees a bad outcome.
Viet Nam is the basis, and the evidence, for my statement that: “There is only one force in the world powerful enough to defeat the US Military, and that is the US body politic, and then only with the tacit approval of the American electorate.”
The case is being built that Iraq, and later Afghanistan, will be further evidence of that statement.
Some never forget.
The last Soldier to leave Viet Nam: http://waronterrornews.typepad.com/home/2013/03/on-march-30th-1973-the-viet-nam-war-ended.html
(US Army Sergeant Major Max Beilke, KIA 9/11/2001, Pentagon)
Is that Tony Meyers in that copter???
When your ROE are “see the hill, take the hill, abandon the hill, then go take the hill back, then abandon the hill again, rinse and repeat”, tell me how your troops are supposed to win a war.
WOTN: historically, virtually all wars end when the political will of one side breaks, not with the total destruction of the enemy. World War II is a rather rare exception.
In Vietnam, we adopted a losing strategy by default and/or accident. In Vietnam we really didn’t have a coherent strategy for how we were going to fight the war, or even a clear goal as to what we were trying to accomplish. We compounded this fundamental error (not knowing what we were trying to do) by adopting a fatally flawed strategy. We elected to fight a war of attrition against an enemy whose tolerance for human loss was grossly higher than ours, and we let the enemy choose the battlefield vice taking the fight to him on his territory. And we did this while the LBJ Administration was simultaneously deceiving the US Congress (and the public) as to the magnitude and nature of the efforts envisioned and required for victory.
The result was predictable as early as 1964. In fact, the Sigma I and Sigma II wargames that year predicted pretty much the outcome we saw in Vietnam by 1968: a stalemate at a level of committed US forces so high that the US public would not support the effort for long – but with North Vietnam able to sustain their war effort.
There were several viable strategies that would have provided for possible US victory in Vietnam. We never seriously considered any of them.
PH, when politicians play General, the lives of Troops are unnecessarily sacrificed. Hitler, Stalin, and Johnson are but a few examples of that.
Hondo, that is not a “virtual” historical reality. It is a basic tenet of warfare: wars are won by destroying the enemy’s will to fight. That is NOT a question. The question is by what means and in what measures is that achieved? Is it a matter of destruction of whole cities (Hiroshima, Nagasaki), the destruction of whole armies (Europe), attrition (WWI), higher order (Batista, Cuba), coup d’etat, or public pressure (Iron Curtain).
It does not change the facts. The US Military was NOT defeated in Viet Nam. The American Politicians surrendered, to protestors in American Streets, which were directed, ultimately, from Moscow. That was indeed facilitated by poor (idiotic) strategies of politicians playing General, but it was a defeat of the American Will to Fight.
I would advise you to read LT GEN Hal Moore’s “We Were Soldiers” and his other musings and those of NVA GEN Giap especially from Giap’s Oct 2005 interview. IF Nixon would have run one or two more bombing raids on Hanio, it would indeed be “irrellevent”. Archives are available over at Freepers. The “strategies” you mention were those of a democrat lead Congress (IIRC) with a heaping, helping double spoon full by John sKerry and the rest of that crew. Hooah?
These are two quotes from GEN William Westmoreland in 1967:
April 28, 1967 – Gen. William Westmoreland said: “In evaluating the enemy strategy, it is evident to me that he believes our Achilles heel is our resolve. Your continued strong support is vital to the success of our mission. Backed at home by resolve, confidence, patience, determination and continued support, we will prevail in Vietnam over the Communist aggressor!”
November 11, 1967 – Gen. Westmoreland said: “I am absolutely certain that, whereas in 1965 the enemy was winning, today, he is losing. The enemy is hopeless and bankrupt.”
I think the real problem is that the lack of strategy and the unwillingness to take advantage of US winning advances is what not only drew the war to an overlong conclusion, but also to abandoning Vietnam in 1975.
If football games were played the way the Vietnam war was run, no one would watch them.
I recommend reading ‘The Unwanted’ by Kien Nguyen if you want to know what AFTER the fall was like- including the days of.
If you want to know what its like, just ask me. I’ll tell you about it from those that lived it. And nearly died.
I traveled VN for 3 months a few years ago, visiting every major battlefield except Khe Sahn, which was too far inland for our trip. But from the Delta to Ha Noi and more, I can provide you more current details you won’t see in the press. Every soldier that said how gorgeous the place is got it right- too bad the Communists had to eff it up so badly. The lies were, and are, sickening even to this day.
Lest we forget, in midst of discussions of politics and details:
Welcome Home! My Viet Nam Brothers. I will remain eternally grateful, first for you service, secondly for the lesson you taught me, and continuing through your Defense of Our Honor, when the same malcontents attempted to malign this generation. You fought for an ungrateful Nation, but you fought with Honor, and returned humbly.
I was an 18 year old PVT E-2 who just arrived at C26 in West Berlin. The morning after Saigon fell, our leadership pulled an alert. For a few hours, we thought we were going to Nam.
We sat around Tempelhof AFB, had lunch, then went back to the barracks. At that was that.
#12 Ex-PH2
There’s some irony in the second Westmoreland quote because the NVA launched the Tet Offensive less than two months later which pretty much put paid to the idea that things were peachy keen. Nor did it seem to matter much, at least to the general American public perception, that the Marines, as just one example, were able to promptly kick the NVA’s asses right back out of the Citadel of Hue.
After Tet, things changed. Johnson decided not to run, and Nixon was ushered in on an anti-war platform based on a new strategy of “Vietnamization.” Something which sounded good in theory, but didn’t work out very well in reality.
Why Vietnamization didn’t work is a complex question. Part of it had to do with an arguably legitimate beef on the part of the North about the Geneva Accords, another part had to do with corruption in Saigon, and still another part was the inclination, or necessity, of ARVN generals to focus more on grabbing political power than on doing what they were supposed to be doing.
Others might disagree, but having been there, it always seemed to me that the American military in Viet Nam was sort of like hooking a mean Rottweiler to a choke chain. The dog might have snapped, snarled, and ripped your arm off if you got too close, but it was never really let off the leash.
I was still in diapers when this happened so all I know about it is from pictures, videos, and books. To me the most iconic images is them pushing the helicopters off the USS Midway.
I was 11. And I remember that very well. I read the newspaper every day. When I joined the Army, I met a few Vietnam Vets. I read every. single. book. I could find on the subject. And the one thing that always sticks out in my mind is Walter Cronkite…many books seemed to have references in much later years about how his words “lost” the war.
My husband visited there in 1993. Their trip started in Burma(Myanmar). They went from Hanoi all the way down to Pleiku. He was most impressed with the work ethic of the people.
I was 13 when Indochina finally succumbed to the communist forces after we abandoned them to their fate. I enlisted four years later, in 1979. The primary drill sergeant for our 11C training platoon during OSUT was Drill Sergeant Bland, who served with 101st Airborne Division in Northern I Corps in 1969-70. He did not scream or shout, but used a low steady tone that was commanding and suthoritative. I learned alot from him…
@6 – Chris — The building was called the Pittman Apartments, it was a CIA safe house in Saigon. The aircraft is a Bell 205 number N47004 operated by Air America. The photo at the top of the post was taken by Hugh Van Es; he died in 2009. There is a better photo showing the aircraft number taken by Philippe Buffon. The guy with his arm extended is OB Harnage. He died in 2009. The pilot was Bob Caron, I talked to him last year. The copilots name was Jack Hunter; he is died in 1997.
Richard: thanks. Could not for the life of me remember the name of that apartment complex, and didn’t have time yesterday to research it at length. That’s been bothering me since last night.
The link below takes you to a presentation at the Marines’ Memorial Assn, where George Veith does a super discussion of the fall of South Viet Nam. He destroys four main myths about that event, and presents, among other things, story after story of incredibly tenacious fights by the ARVN that cost the NVA dearly. His book, Black April, is highly recommended. But just listening to this discussion is enormously informative.
Not a happy day – not even one I wish to remember. But thanks, Hondo, for forcing that memory anyway.
Was at work when all this happened, and in the company of several vets who did not take this at all well. It was painful. But I still feel honored to have shared those moments with them.
OWB: I understand, lady. I grew up near an Army installation during the Vietnam War and knew a fair number of people personally who served in Vietnam.
The memory definitely isn’t pleasant. But if we don’t remember it – and the mistakes that got us to that point – we’re damned likely to repeat them.
Television news coverage of this is my earliest memory.
@21 Hondo — Well there you go 🙂 Caron says that the aircraft made three trips that day but I don’t know what happened to it after that. If you hunt around on the internet, you can find more recent pictures of the building and interviews with Bob Caron and OB Harnage.
The Air America reunion will be in New Orleans this year, early June like always. Attendees include kickers, pilots, crew, admin people, friends, and relatives. If you are in the area, drop in and shake some hands. Most people are from the Laos and Vietnam era, there are a few from Central America. Drop into the store, buy a tee shirt, and chew the fat. Good times.
The other side of the coin, Hondo, is that if we do not pass the lessons along, who is going to do it? Do we allow Hanoi Jane and her ilk to be the only instructors out there?
Not as long as I draw breath.
As I look back over history, and think about how we are engaging in the wars today…..feels like Groundhog Day.
Remember that picture, folks… it’s the Democrats’ plan for Afghanistan.