My Thoughts On The Marine Killed By Pima County SWAT
Jonn and many of our readers have already discussed this but I am going to add my two cents.
I am admittedly very upset and disturbed by this story for a number of reasons. I understand that all the facts in the case have not been forthcoming but that is mostly because the Pima County Sheriff’s Office, which as Strike FO pointed out is run by the illustrious Sheriff Dupnik, is trying to cover their ass. Additionally, they are repeatedly changing their story, which should tell everyone following this hat Pima County SWAT knows they have screwed up.
With the facts that are available, I want to make the following the points:
First and foremost this RAID SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED. PERIOD. Less than an hour of basic police intelligence work would have shown that Jose Guerena works at a mine that is in an area that is not as densely populated as a residential area. Additionally, that would have shown that Guerena had no prior criminal record, was an honorably discharged Marine, and had a family that lived with him. By choosing to raid the house, not only did Pima SWAT put civilians in danger by hitting Guerena’s house in the manner that they did, but they also put themselves in danger by choosing to conduct the raid at Guerena’s home. Lets assume for a second that Guerena was a bad guy who was involved in the drug trade. Despite the fact that he was an air winger, he probably had at least some combat-related training, especially if he deployed to Iraq twice. I know that he was stationed in Yuma and they have Marines there that train air wingers before they deploy in basic combat tactics, including basic CQB and MOUT tactics. He would have had at least a very basic understanding about how to setup a defensive position inside a building. So, with that possibility in mind, Pima SWAT still chose to hit the house (in daylight too), even though there were clearly other options available to them, mainly the option to detain him at work or when he was driving to and from work. This was extremely poor mission planning on the part of the Pima County SWAT team.
Secondly, based on the information that has been released by Pima County, this is without a doubt a seriously dicked up SWAT Team. I’ve already laid out how I think they did a piss poor job of planning this mission, so now lets look at how the raid actually played out. First off, Pima County SWAT says they banged on the door for fifteen seconds and had the sirens and lights on their vehicles on. The wife of Jose Guerena claims they didn’t. I am inclined to believe the wife right now since she seems to be the only one who has kept her story straight, but this point is debatable so I am not going to focus too much on this. According to the SWAT team, as soon as they entered the house they see Guerena crouched with an AR-15 pointed at them. At that moment the SWAT team opens fire, with five shooters firing 71 shots in seven seconds. Thats two rounds every second per shooter. I don’t know what kind of weapons they were using but a standard M4 or MP5 can spit out rounds faster on full auto so I think they were just slapping the trigger on semi or maybe one shooter had a weapon on burst. Either way, that is a complete lack of fire discipline. Lets assume again that Guerena was a bad guy and his wife was involved with the drug trade with him (again there is NO EVIDENCE OF THIS THUS FAR, but I am just using hypotheticals here). With all five shooters focused on Guerena, nobody else was covering the other sectors of the room or moving to clear the rest of the house (which they probably shouldn’t have done if they only went in with five shooters anyways). That would have left an opportunity for someone to come out and start shooting at the SWAT team, potentially wounding or killing some or all of the SWAT team during the raid. Then there is this little tidbit from an AZ Daily Star Article:
A deputy’s bullet struck the side of the doorway, causing chips of wood to fall on his shield. That prompted some members of the team to think the deputy had been shot, O’Connor said.
One of two things happened there. Either the deputies went in the door spraying and praying and a round struck the door or one of the deputies had a negligent discharge upon entry through the doorway and the round hit the door frame. Either way, it didn’t justify the SWAT team losing their cool and forgetting all tactical sense. Whatever happened it leads to the question of what the fuck kind of training these keystone cops went through before they went on this raid. They clearly were not prepared or properly trained to execute this mission.
Uncle Jimbo did a series last year on how SWAT raids like this shouldn’t be happening. I encourage you to read it.
Also one finally thing. Cpl. Guerena was a Latino killed by the police under questionable circumstances in the “mecca of hate”, Arizona. Riots have erupted over less than this. But what has been the reaction from all the lefty blogs in Arizona, and particularly Tucson? Crickets, Crickets, Crickets, and Crickets. This prominent left-wing blog’s top post actually celebrates the fact that the Dupnik recall failed. Does it surprise anyone? A gun-owning, combat veteran with no criminal record killed by members of a left-wing Sheriff’s office? Oh, but it doesn’t fit the narrative! Fuck them. Fuck them all. I wish it was one of them in the house instead of Cpl Guerena. Semper Fi Brother.
Jonn added; An hour and twelve minutes the ambulance sat outside the home waiting for clearance from the police. An hour and 12 minutes until word came that Cpl Guerena was dead.
You’d think the neighbor would have mentioned the sirens;
Category: The Guerena Killing, Veterans Issues
#49 OT
That is not only insane, it is frightening. How could anyone rule in such a manner?
The people in IN need to hold their elected AND appointed officials to account
#49 OT,
So, were I a criminal (not a cop, which would be redundant), all I’d have to do is dress up like a cop and I’d get free run of a victim’s house in Indiana?
Sweet! It doesn’t get any better than this! Well, unless you work for GM.
For more historical context – bad forensic work and a Tuscon/Pima County task force bent on getting a rapist.
http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/963/963.F2d.1220.88-15685.88-15661.html
Exhibits–Vol. I, No. 0041.
26 No doubt exists about the Task Force’s intent. In his deposition, Barkman was quite explicit about his scheme to ignore a suspect’s substantive right to remain silent while in custody, as well as any request the suspect might make to consult with counsel.
@# 53 Anna- Stupedick’s name attached to anything is about all any sane individual needs….
This whole thing gets smellier by the second, and the fact that it’s Sheriff Duckshits Baileywick answers a lot of questions. Andy, slow down brother, there’s a shitpot full of combat vets wearing the badge a serving honorably, and there are a lot of “John Waynes” who have to set the badge on the seat next to them and have no business wearing the uniform. Just like the shitbirds we all knew in our respective branches. This whole shebang smacks of “Ted Macks Original Amateur Hour”. I spent time in SWAT and you don’t roll up with redlights and sirens. That defeats the whole purpose plus this Marines widow should have been presented with a copy of the search warrant. This whole thing stinks to high hell.
I will be looking for info to contribute to this Marines survivors.
Just as an aside, even if he was a wingwiper, all Marines go to School of Infantry after Bootcamp, you’re a rifleman first, all else is secondary. Semper Fi brothers…even you non Marines.
Andy,
It’s okay to blow off steam. Not to blow up cops. Better that you go talk to a tree than get this site, and folks here, pegged as domestic terrorists.
GruntSgt, here’s what I don’t get: from what has been reported, just about every rule of SWAT and police work (gathering/maintaining evidence for use in prosecution) seems to have been violated. Now, people can be that stupid, but to get everything wrong? Was this a show of force demonstration gone wrong?
What is the right way to go about it?
All I know is, I’ve spent no time in SWAT and there is no way on God’s green Earth I would have even tried this approach at serving a fQQking warrant for a low level beef. Fuck it man, I’d of boxed him in on the highway and served my warrant. But, that’s me. This is totally senseless. Andy? Cool your jets, brother. Let’s concentrate on helping his widow and child. DaveO? StQQpid is as stQQpid does. I wouldn’t have any of these PIMA County asshats covering my six. Mofo’s wouldn’t even be good for writing simple parking tickets…
If this really were a SWAT raid it was bungled from the get go. Andy, I’m with everyone else. Put professional pride aside. We’re here for the stability of our society. Some of us go on to be cops, some of us go on to be businessmen, some politicians, but MOST (jack-asses like Murtha mean you can’t say all) care about making sure that this society remains stable prosperous and free. We’ll find out what happened, and raise holy hell in the legal system if those at fault of this SNAFU aren’t punished.
Street Sweeper, you wonder why Arizona has gone into the shitter the last couple of years, it has a lot to do with drug violence but the cops are doing the same old thing and failing miserably at it. So they go overboard on occasion and you get this.
Search warrant for information on a drug conspiracy. Search warrant for INFORMATION on a drug conspiracy. THEY USE THAT MUCH FREAKING FORCE TO OBTAIN INFORMATION! ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME! I must stop typing to pissed off
#59 xinlaw, where did you find that info? Any links?
OS54
Here it is:
http://www.kgun9.com/story/14643812/this-case-involves-a-narcotics-conspiracy-case-which-means-that-we-are-looking-for-a-lot-of-different-narcotics-related-material-that-can-be-drug?redirected=true
O’Connor: “This case involves a narcotics conspiracy case, which means that we are looking for a lot of different narcotics related material. That can be drug ledgers, scales, anything that would be in furtherance of this narcotics conspiracy. And it involved all four residents that we were looking at in that quarter mile of so of each other.”
O’Connor: “We did find things that we were asking for in that. It may have been drug ledgers, narcotics paraphernalia, any other connecting material between the residences. Those things were found, in addition to a large sum of money. Somewhat larger that what you would expect to find in anyone’s home.”
Waldman: “Can you say if that was the residence where the shooting happened?”
O’Connor: “No, it was one of the four, but it was not that residence.”
The sheriff should tell his spokesperson to shut up, he’s not helping the SD out at all.
“any other connecting material between the residences.” Um, Deputy O’Connor, would that “connecting material” be someone’s name and phone # in someone else’s cell phone contact list? And, when did the sheriff’s office get in the business of estimating how large a sum of money one is expected to have in their house? Oh, that’s right, Stupenik is a dem, people other than the government, aren’t allowed to have “a large sum of money”.
And, I guess you’re admitting, however obliquely, that you found nothing at Cpl Guerena’s home? So, 70+ shots fired, a family ruined, a Marine dead, a widow and a child without a father, for nothing?
We had a similar incident in Dorado Golf course last week. Lots of police (20 cars, swat team etc. ) blocked all the roads for 8 hours. Finally shot up the house, door, window etc. The story the police gave neighbors was inconsistent, but I have photos to show the damage, since it all took place 1 block from my house. How can I send the photos to you? The story never appeared in the newspaper and it appears that the young man was killed. Fowers, candles and a cross appeared at the door after the police, swat team vacated the area.
UpNorth; my take is that the money wasn’t found at Cpl Guerena’s residence, but at one of the other 3 residences in this conspiracy fiasco, along with whatever “drug ledgers, paraphenalia, etc.” Nothing was found at the Cpl’s home. So, he was killed for nothing. What a bunch of fucktards. The whole lot of them, including Dupnik and Lt. O’Connor, need to be arrested and charged with criminal negligence and wrongful death.
Jeezus, this story just pisses me off the more details that come out.
You and me both, Old Trooper.
Well, the medics link appears to be broken.
[…] military oversight of the police? Posted on May 16, 2011 by wormme MAW sent this link to a Pima County SWAT team’s killing of a veteran, which appears to have been totally unnecessary. Also, this nation-wide map of botched […]
Another story I just found.
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_b3177522-baa0-5c9e-9f0d-d3d7da6e9e4b.html
This is just getting sickening beyond comprehension.
Thanks for posting the new link JPJ.
I really hope O’Reilly takes this up because this looks like those PCSD SWAT heros got all nervous in the service, screwed the pooch, and gunned down an innocent man. And they’ll try to stonewall this until Christ returns.
This is foul beyond words.
[…] now dead and that lying dirtbag of a sheriff can’t get his story straight. Read all about it here and […]
Reminds me of Southern Indiana. Came home from work, five cop cars in front of my house. Two blocking street and other three pulled up on sidewalk, yard and my driveway. Ten cops in a huddle pointing out where they should go. I stop my car in middle of street and start toasted them yelling, “Are my wife and kids okay?” one cop comes towered me with hand on his gun telling me to stop. I raised my hands but kept yelling out asking if they were okay. Finally he asks if I live there. I tell him I do and he asks me to wait, goes back to the group, they look back at me, then everyone runs back to their cars and quickly drive away. Never di hear what it was all about but assumed the wrong house. I lived at the time (1994) in a predominately black neighborhood,( I am white). Can only imagine what would have happened if I had not arrived when I had as the wife is Chinese and did not understand English that well.
[…] My Thoughts On The Marine Killed By Pima County SWAT One of two things happened there. Either the deputies went in the door spraying and praying and a round struck the door or one of the deputies had a negligent discharge upon entry through the doorway and the round hit the door frame. Either way, it didn’t justify the SWAT team losing their cool and forgetting all tactical sense. Whatever happened it leads to the question of what the fuck kind of training these keystone cops went through before they went on this raid. They clearly were not prepared or properly trained to execute this mission. […]
Well, this is just one county and one overreach of police powers. I just watched a video of a 17 year old kid being arrested and detained in North Dakota because he was filming a police officer out in public. He was handcuffed, put in an interview room, while still handcuffed of course, had 2 officers in the room with him questioning him. A guy walks in and claims to be the arresting officer’s supervisor and asks the kid where he thought he had the right to film the officer. Now, the kid tells them, that North Dakota law and the 1st Amendment of the Constitution gave him the right to film anything he wanted in public. They left the kid in there for over an hour. Did not read him his rights, did not call his parents (he’s a minor), etc. After over an hour, they un-cuffed him, gave him his camera and had 3 officers escort him out of the station.
Even though there is case law in front of the Supreme Court that says you can resist unlawful/illegal arrest from law enforcement; you’re not going to win at the local level. It seems cops are getting more aggressive without knowledge of whether their actions are legal or the actions of the person they target are legal. Maybe these officers need more training before being given a gun and badge?
The whole point of SWAT Teams is that the officers involved are highly trained and issued weapons that are not permitted to patrol officers, or deputies in this case.
Now one of the most important parts of that training is fire discipline. This means we do not fire 71 rounds at a guy who, so far as we know, never even aimed at the deputies. We do know that Guerena never took his rifle off “safe”. We do know that Guerena never fired a shot.
So, seventy-one rounds fired. I read somewhere that Guerena took sixty hits. Looks to me like the deputies screwed the pooch big time and it’s a young family that pays. And pays. And will pay for a very long time.
American law does not contain the death penalty for being suspected in a drug conspiracy. Nor does American law contain the death penalty for having a rifle in one’s hands in one’s own home.
[…] this military veteran: Whatever happened it leads to the question of what the fuck kind of training these keystone cops […]
You want a drug war? This is how it works.
So, 70+ shots fired, a family ruined, a Marine dead, a widow and a child without a father, for nothing?
It wasn’t for nothing. It was to keep the gravy train (the drug war) going.
And just to make your day:
http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2011/05/fda-to-study-cannabis-for-ptsd.html
Here in my home area, not overbearing police, but stupidity by someone:
A guy beat the crap out of his wife at night, all night long. In the morning he heads to the range, (I don’t know if he worked there or was a patron, doesn’t matter.). She went to the cops and told them about the beating. Soooo, two deputies show up at the Gun range to “talk” to him. He went for a gun, they went for a taser. He shot them both- dead, took off and the gun range guy called the cops. They chased him until he rolled his truck upside down and went down in gunfire. Sure, he is dead, no trial needed, no further threat; but why in hell do law enforcement go after a violent type, known to be armed, at a shooting range, without their guns out, and do a felony takedown? Now we are short to pretty good deputies for it.
My comment above suggests that if these guys would endanger themselves like that, what would they do in a Guerena type situation. That above showed poor planning, or poor discipline, or poor judgement, or all of the above.
And, the last sentence above should read: “Now we are short two pretty good deputies for it.”
FO, poor planning from the get-go. Bad enough to give yourself a slim chance at the guy’s house, worse yet, to give yourself no chance at a range. If you take a taser to a gun fight, you’ll lose every time.
By and large the police of this great Nation of ours have gotten way too big for their britches.
When an amateur thief gets sent to prison, s/he comes a pro. When a rapist gets sent to prison, s/he knows not to leave witnesses.
When LAPD beat Rodney King to the groumd, they learned to take it off the streets, and to shut down surveillance. That lesson has carried throughout the US.
Throw in the terrible performance of duty by Madison, Wisconsin police; and the fear of being overlawyered and regulated; and the code of conduct toward other cops.
I don’t know how many cops are scrubs brought in while regular troopers are pulling military duty, but scrubs is as scrubs does.
You’ve got one extremely well-armed army that fears the light of truth, doesn’t know every single pertinent regulation, rule, and law governing any situation at any time, and dead witnesses and confiscated cameras can’t tell tales in court.
I’ve been thinking about this. We keep hearing that Jose was hit 60 times, killed instantly.
We already know that he did not open fire like they first claimed.
Remember all the bullet holes in the house? Unless those were pass throughs and exit holes on the back of the house, from the number I’ve seen, there is NO WAY they hit Jose 60 times after firing 71 rounds.
I wonder if there is any way to get pictures of the front of the house where all the shooting happened. If the door frame and area around look like swiss cheese, it lends credibility to Vanessa’s statement that he was hit in hands and stomach and was still alive when they dragged her out.
And DaveO, I’ve been noticing the size of the chips on their shoulders for many years, now.
Great article!
I am a Marine, and I am also a liberal, and a I agree with everything you write.
You closed out the article with some divisive political points…and you may have a point, I am not tuned into the blogosphere so to speak.
But for this issue, I think we need to all put aside our differences and stand up together to speak out. I don’t care what bass-ackwards sheriffs department this is… liberal sheriff, conservative sheriff…I don’t care if this happened in a blue state, a red state… this is outrageous.
Gun owners should be outraged. Gun control advocates should be outraged. Everyone should be outraged at this incident.
Justice needs to be served!
As long as the cops have a monopoly on carrying out violence on the whims of a solialists, this will happen more and more.
Does anyone know if a Memorial fund has been set up? I have a facebook page and would like to post that information.
Thank You.
Facebook page…..
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Jose-Guerena-Justice-needed-Semper-Fi/149948558408094
Oh how glorious, good men shot down by a political agenda, once again, the four goods at work, it seems that this is another example how Vets are considered, by our government, the only thing that I would make comment on, I pray that there is a devil, and those that commit such acts will rot in the eternity of hell’s damnation! Tyranny especially locally at the grass roots, I fear, is the same now, as it was thirty years ago, when other Vets returned home! Well, somethings have changed, they don’t spit at Vets, and call them babykillers!
What a group of cowards this swat team was…pathetic. The way law enforcement takes responsibility for their actions is un-sat, bunch of pussy losers who never left high school so they can bully and kill their whole lives.