Why IVAW all burned the flag on Mar. 20th
IVAW's Matthis Chiroux, Robyn Murray and MFSO's Elaine Brower burn the US flag "This is not my country!"
In the above depicted incident, IVAW board member Matthis Chiroux, while garbed in his IVAW T-shirt took it upon himself to speak for the entire organization and burn a flag at a rally organized and paid for by the Maoist ANSWER organization. The IVAW organization has had several opportunities to separate themselves from the incident.
Jose Vasquez, the Executive Director of IVAW could have asserted some authority and come out firmly against Matthis Chiroux’ actions. Instead he prattled on about his Puerto Rican ancestry as if that had something to do with issue.
The only board member who decided to speak up and complain was Geof “Stolen Valor” Millard. With the tacit approval of the Board, Matthis decided to compare himself to Martin Luther King, Jr in his strained pseudo-intellectual attempt to dazzle us with his idiot missive.
So the Board had a meeting over the incident. On Facebook I found this response from the Board to one of their members who inquired about their final decision;
Thank you for your input on this subject. After much debate the board agreed, with one exception, not to censure Matthis for his actions. However, this does not mean that the board supports his actions. Rather, it is an expression of the belief that, while Board Members do represent the membership in some capacities, participation on the board should not stifle individual expression.
The matter is left to Matthis to engage with the people he has angered by his actions.
Have you ever read such a pussy response in your life? “We won’t censure Matthis, but that doesn’t mean we support his actions”. That rates right up there with “near hit” and “almost pregnant”.
So what does it mean to my readers who are still IVAW members? You burned the flag, too. He was wearing the shirt, he’s a board member, you burned the flag, too, because your board decided that, unless you confront Matthis yourself, you’re giving your tacit approval to his theater.
Many of you have defended to me your membership in the IVAW after the Jesse MacBeth fiasco by declaring that Jesse MacBeth happened before you joined. Did Matthis Chiroux happen before you joined? Did Matthis Chiroux write about how much he’s like Martin Luther King, Jr. before you joined? Was he walking around declaring that he’s an Afghanistan veteran before you joined? Did he declare that there’s no honor in your service and sacrifice to the country before you joined? Did he apologize to an Afghan parliamentarian for his occupation of her country before you joined? Did he claim to have PTSD from listening to barracks talk before you joined?
Was he elected to the Board after you joined? Did he and his ISO insurgents hijack the organization before you joined?
What exactly are you doing these days belonging to an organization led by mostly non-combat veterans (wearing the same “Iraq Veterans” emblazoned on their chests as you have) who don’t even understand you and do their level best to marginalize your concerns and silence you?
And, oh, the word is that anyone who wants to confront Matthis, he’ll be at the East Gate of Fort Hood burning another flag on Saturday afternoon after a march from Under the Hood Cafe – that innocuous little coffee shop.
Category: Antiwar crowd, Iraq Veterans Against the War, Phony soldiers, Usual Suspects
As someone commented on an earlier posting:
Maxine, “If you’re going to burn the flag, please do us all a favor & wrap yourself in it first.”
Also, if all that crap happened before you joined, why did you join?
Will Selena answer any of those questions? Not a chance!
Btw Jonn, here is a link to the Pepsi Refresh Project that gives $25,000 to organizations. One of the groups in the running for the money is something called Warrior Writers. It was started by IVAW members. It’s actually an offshoot of IVAW. I wonder if Pepsi knows that if this group wins they will be supporting flag burners and American haters? hmmm
http://www.refresheverything.com/warriorwritersproject
PUSSIES, nothing more, no spine to take a stand against that drug addled Rapist fraud.
^Sorry, thats my Comment, damn laptop
Well spoken. When does one, when belonging to an organization such as IVAW, decide that there is right and wrong, support and non-support, even on the “inside.” It might be a good time for true combat veteran members of IVAW to separate themselves from this incident and the perpetrator. I personally am not declaring support for IVAW, I just think you’ve made excellent points and I agree. Ft. Hood might be a good place to take a stand, in the interest of integrity and credibility, on the parts of IVAW combat veteran members.
There is a t-shirt with an American flag in the middle surrounded by the words “Try burning this one, asshole.” I think anyone planning to visit Matthis in Texas should don one as the uniform of the day.
I’m not in any way affiliated with the people who posted this shirt on Cafe Press. It just happens to be the one Facebook ad that actually caught my attention: http://www.cafepress.com/+try_burning_this_one_dark_tshirt,120966862
I will be going to Killeen saturday to confront Matthis as I told him a long time ago I would when given the chance.
CRaissi (#8) said, “I’m not in any way affiliated with the people who posted this shirt on Cafe Press. It just happens to be the one Facebook ad that actually caught my attention: http://www.cafepress.com/+try_burning_this_one_dark_tshirt,120966862”
That’s the free market at work for ya, LOL. Gotta love it.
“So what does it mean to my readers who are still IVAW members? You burned the flag, too. He was wearing the shirt, he’s a board member, you burned the flag, too, because your board decided that, unless you confront Matthis yourself, you’re giving your tacit approval to his theater.”
Jonn, I have to disagree with you on this point based on my rejection of the concept of collective guilt. Matthis is the one who burned the flag, not everyone who is a member of IVAW. Yes, I support their non-violent protest to Matthis for burning the flag, and encourage it. But I reject this collectivist idea of collective guilt — something which I’m surprised would be embraced here as I have always viewed this way of thinking as being the way leftists think, almost Marxist, not the way a freedom-loving person would think with regard to individual rights and responsibility.
But I think your main point here was to fan the flames, not to be introspective with regard to philosophical ideas. Am I correct? 🙂
No, Debra, I don’t fan flames. The IVAW voted to own the flag burning for the entire organization. Anyone who stays in IVAW after this vote accepts the board’s decision. The only way they can escape the incident is to personally confront Matthis…and you know, as well as I know, that anyone who confronts him will be tossed like Casey Porter was tossed after the Carl Webb incident.
Here is a statement that was issued by Under the Hood cafe on facebook on March 30:
“There is a rumor going around that there will be people coming to Under the Hood Cafe to burn flags. I want to set the record straight. There is No flag burning here at UtH, Killeen/Ft. Hood area, TX or anywhere else by any active duty soldiers/vets from here.”
But I reject this collectivist idea of collective guilt — something which I’m surprised would be embraced here as I have always viewed this way of thinking as being the way leftists think, almost Marxist, not the way a freedom-loving person would think with regard to individual rights and responsibility.
Here’s the fallacy of your assertion; an individual, when faced with the obvious conclusion that the organization they are associated with condones or excuses certain acts, your continued involvement with that organization is your personal approval of whatever the group has endorsed. I might give someone the benefit of the doubt if the group they’re with has identified some serious issue and has taken steps to correct it, but you reach a tipping point where not only has the organization lost all ability in policing itself, the individual members cannot maintain a shred of credibility or personal disassociation. As an example; how would you feel if a person told you they were a member of the Klan, yet they don’t really have a problem with minorities…it’s merely what the organization believes, and not their personal opinion on the subject. Would your rejection of personal guilt by association still hold up? I somehow doubt it.
Dear Debra,
You are the company you keep. What’s so difficult to understand about that concept?
Hmm, well…I see your points. However, I’ve personally got too much work to do to worry about any of my own cognitive dissonance.
If I am the company I keep, then I must be TAH…How do you like that??
Sparky…
Amen.
And, Really, Army Sargeant. Please save yourself, or I do confess, you must truly be one of them despite all your protesting not to label all as one. It is as we see it. There are better organizations for you to do what you want to do.
Oops. Spelled my friend’s name instead of the rank. Sergeant.
Debra–I’m also a lot of other things you might not expect. But when someone (including me) does something stupid or wrong, I don’t defend it, nor do I justify it with my silence. Silence is, for right or wrong, taken as tacit approval.
I do not have time to respond to this right now. We’re burying my grandmother this week. You guys can all attack me this weekend. Don’t see my absence from this conversation as indicative of anything.
Where did someone attack you?
AS – Condolences on the loss of your grandmother.
I don’t think anyone is attacking you. Rather, waiting to see your position on this matter and how/if you will try and explain this one away.
Selena, Requiem In Pace, I am sorry to hear of your Grandmother’s passing. And ladies and gents, it really isn’t fair to attack her on this issue. I am sure that she will be able to state her opinion for the record at a later date. She and I have had our issues in the past, but I believe I remember her saying that flag burning is wrong. That being said, when is somebody going to slap some sense into Matthis with the strong side of the Pimp hand? Whatever happened to the Alien and Sedition Acts? This guy has just about committed Sedition and Treason against the Government of the United States for crying out loud!!!
Selena, Requiem In Pace, I am sorry to hear of your Grandmother’s passing. And ladies and gents, it really isn’t fair to attack her on this issue. I am sure that she will be able to state her opinion for the record at a later date. She and I have had our issues in the past, but I believe I remember her saying that flag burning is wrong. That being said, when is somebody going to slap some sense into Matthis with the strong side of the Pimp hand? Whatever happened to the Alien and Sedition Acts? This guy has just about committed Sedition and Treason against the Government of the United States for crying out loud!!!
And BTW, as an Afghan Veteran, especially one who spent a considerably longer amount of his time there during a tour in his youth than Matthis, I want that useless Skell held accountable for his claiming to be one of us! According to the Veteran’s of Foreign Wars of the United States, in order to be a Combat Veteran of an armed conflict, one must spend thirty days in said combat zone, or earn a combat award, or the campaign ribbon. Matthis didn’t even qualify for a Combat Patch!!!
I agree, I find AS blameless in this one. Although I do have one off-line question for her later, but I know her feelings on this one, and she’s faultless in my book.
In my opinion my son intends to subvert the IVAW for whatever his reasons so every waffled response from its leadership invites further escalation. Underestimating my son’s ability to strategize and manipulate is most unwise so I would not be suprised if provoking a “confrontation” is part of his plan. At minimum it has a high probability of creating sympathy and financial support and at maximum grounds for suit and settlement. My son reminds me of a rock star; attention, good or bad, sells records but down the road there is often a hard, lonely landing.
Sir, I am so sorry that your Son did not learn anything from his days as an Army Non-Commissioned Officer. Professionalism is apparently not his strong suit.
I do appreciate the sentiment. Being a veteran, and I say that most humbly as I never had to face fire, my reaction to “an Iraq veteran whom is against the war” is “Okay, tell me why and let’s discuss it over a beer, I’m buying”. I feel sorry for all the members of this IVAW organization whose hearts are in the right place. I don’t think they really see the evolving situation for what it is and that is a sadness to me. I understand the sense of loyalty they feel to what it was and what it should be, but it’s gone and it’s not coming back. All that is left is a growing ugliness; all that IVAW should have been, could have been, is dead. I know it’s hard but the good ones need to let it go and move on. That’s really hard and you all I know this.
To be clear, I left IVAW almost a full year before I took on the Webb issue. Afterwards, I was given a lifetime ban at the request of several of the board members. I have yet to receive something official for me to frame and hang in my home. …and that really hurts my feelings.
Mr. Chrioux, I know exactly what you are talking about. I wish IVAW was something different than what it is now. Leaving was not something I did with a smile and a wave. I was not happy that I had to leave, but I saw it for what it was. In the year since I left, has IVAW furthered it’s goal in ending the war in anyway? Nope. But I’m sure that’s somehow my fault because I am not an anarcho-socialist, or a socialist, so I must be a conservative. These people are to the left what Glenn Beck is to the right, closed minded egomaniacs, and if I’m calling you out on your ego, you really must have a problem.
IVAW is what you make of it, just like anything in this life. A flag was burned, who cares? Why wrap up your feelings and love for this country in nothing more than a piece of fabric stitched together in China? Why keep pointing out the bs in IVAW? They never have been a very important organization and with all of the internal crap going on in it, it won’t be in the future. Alas, if you have to bash some angry vets, you gotta do what makes you happy. I think we (the readers of this blog) need to get a life and do something important for us or those around us.
It is not just a piece of fabric sewn together in China. It is a symbol of everything that is America. Our beliefs, our values, and our people.
Hey Anonymous:
You said: “…stitched together in China,,,,,”. Are you that flippin’ cheap that you buy American flags that are “made in China”? I own several, have donated many, and not a damned one of them was made in China. I can see where a liberal would want to hang a flag, fly a flag, or otherwise show one so that he/she can pretend to be an actual member of our society, and that they would save bucks by buying one made any damned where.
I buy Flags that are “Made In America”, even with the fabric being made in America. Costs a couple of bucks more than the Chinese shit, but that is a small price to pay. I recently was at an event at Camp James E. Rudder, (a few here know where that is), and had 7 flags on my truck. Sure wouldn’t have wanted the RANGERS there to see one from anywhere else.
Nuf Sed
Looks like Laura Ingram is running a segment on this as a fill in for O’Reilly tonight.
Lucky (#23), the Sedition Act was denounced by Thomas Jefferson as unconstitutional, violating the first and tenth amendments. So I must ask you under what political philosophy are you defending oppressive government? The only governments that have ever outlawed flag-burning are very oppressive ones that operate totally contrary to the principles on which this country was founded. Inasmuch as the burning of a flag is a symbolic act and protected under the first amendment to the US Constitution, on what possible grounds as an American do you call for this to be outlawed?
I am not defending the burning of the American flag. I find the act to be both offensive as well as juvenile. I’d like there to be no further incidents of flag-burning as they serve NO purpose except as a self-defeating emotional orgy for those who have no regard for public opinion or the sensibilities of others. I encourage the matter to be dealt with on a personal level and through social pressure. But I do defend the right to free speech and expression, without which a free nation can not survive. Take away that right and you will have extinguished the purpose and symbollic meaning of the very flag that you claim to defend.
And I think I’ve made it very clear both here and on Facebook that I denounce Matthis Chiroux’s act of flag-burning, so the rest is preaching to the choir. If anyone has any doubts that I have denounced this act, Jonn is more than welcome to post the lengthy discussion on this from the wall of my Facebook page.
Wait a minute…I take that back (#37). However, if anybody wants to read it, it’s there.
Looking with a cooler head, I see it was Peskoff and not the TAH crew. Thanks everyone for your sympathies.
Claymore: please tell me you’re fucking kidding.
Why? Um, they’re douchebags?
First, I add my condolences for your loss. I lost my grandmother not long ago myself, and it was devastating.
Now…not only am I not kidding, I reassert my original assertion. Unless you have some brilliant argument otherwise, I see no reason not to associate someone with the groups and individuals that they embrace, unless the purpose of that relationship is rehabilitation. People don’t join political movements for the cookies and ice cream socials. You either support the goals and aims of the organization or you’re there to change it. If someone is not openly challenging what they consider to be abhorrent policy, they’re giving tacit approval. Period.
…and I might add that if an individual has attempted and failed to straighten a course for the group they profess to support, it’s incumbent upon that person to determine the value of remaining associated with the group. I have a personal example of this, but I honestly don’t think you’ll care. You’ve made your decision.
Debra, I do not support an Oppressive Government. I only support AND defend your right to form an opinion that the Government IS oppressive. Jeffersonian thinking went out with the Jacksonian politicians Debra. He was a brilliant, gifted man but also a hypocrite. I prefer to think along the lines of President Roosevelt anyway, and not the borderline Commie Roosevelt either, the one who knew what it was like to fight for his country. And, as a Patriot, Veteran, and a Student of history, I see flag burning as immoral, wrong, and a crime. Freedom of expression is all fine and dandy-like, but when you have friends or family that have, fought, bled, and DIED to defend that flag and all it stands for, well, frankly you become kinda opinionated and crotchety as to people’s actions WITH said flag. For example, I am a fan of Kid Rock’s music, but his wearing the Colors as a poncho/shirt? Wrong! Somebody slap some sense into Mr. Rock with the strong side of the Pimp hand please!
I very much disagree with you, Lucky. As well as several other points made by others. Maybe I will address it later…though it will no doubt just be a waste of time anyway.
Debra, that link for the t-shirt doesn’t work but I found it here: http://www.cafepress.com/try_burning_this_one_asshole
if I catch anybody burning the american flag, I will beat their ass up!
[…] he sounds just like Matthis. This is what I wrote after the IVAW failed to eject Matthis the first time when I told the IVAW that they all burned the flag in Lafayette Park. It might be a […]