When is a Gun Not a Gun?
Ghost guns?
I’ve seen this term tossed about here and there, and frankly, had no idea what it referred to. I thought that perhaps it was a reference to people with 3-D printers who can concoct just about any solid object from plans, using resins that are easily obtained at most hobby shops.
I do have a laser tag gun that bears a remarkable resemblance to a handgun. It is currently buried in a box in a closet.
This article by Rick Kambric starts with his question: When is a gun really a gun? http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/vernon-hills/news/ct-vhr-blotter-jakub-zak-80-percent-ghost-guns-tl-0816-story.html#
“Jakub Zak, 19, pleaded guilty Aug. 6 to a reduced gun possession charge after police said the teen was in possession of home-built firearms known as ghost guns. In total, he was in possession of five guns in various stages of completion including some that could be fired, police said.”
Here’s the problem: Zak is, under state law, required to have an FOID if he intends to own a weapon, period. There is no leeway for this. Regardless of age and/or his intentions, not obtaining an FOID puts his possession of these firearms, incomplete or otherwise, into “illegal possession” status.
“The case highlights how the line between a gun part and an actual gun can come down to a few holes.
“A receiver — or the frame of a gun to which most of the parts eventually connect — is legally considered a gun, according to Kreis.
“Federal law allows purchasers to legally buy or transfer parts that are no more than “80 percent” of a gun, according to Kreis. He said a block of metal shaped like a receiver but not fully drilled to accommodate screws or a barrel is considered less than 80 percent of a gun, and can therefore be sold outside of the laws that regulate a completed firearm purchase.”
There are clear images in the lead photo in the article that show the various stages of incomplete and complete receivers, and it is the “complete” receiver with the groove in the metal that is considered to be a firearm by law enforcement. Adding places for bolts and screws increases the “completeness” of it.
Dismissing Zak’s personal bent towards partisan politics, and hanging out at the campus of the College of Lake County, the fact that he had any gun in a near-complete state and had no FOID is what nailed him. What he intended to do is speculation, and I will not do that here.
The article also includes the fact that hobbyists whose interest lies in reconstructing antique firearms such as flintlocks and black powder handguns and rifles can legally buy the parts for them online and put them together in working order at home, but the fact is that the majority of these people are not disgruntled souls looking for a bone to pick.
I think those guns that Josey Wales carried in that movie are pretty cool. I’d wear those to the store, just for the sheer glamour of it.
There are plenty of people who will buy kits and receivers with serial numbers from gun shops, and build a custom gun for themselves with other parts.
As I said, I have no idea what Jakub Zak’s intentions were in buying these parts or bringing these firearms to completion. However, none of his weapons, complete or incomplete, had serial numbers which is common with the purchases of these online parts. The issue here is that these ghost guns with no serial numbers are frequently stolen from the people who built them, making them untraceable.
This makes it more difficult for licensed gun owners and potential gun owners like me to legally obtain weapons that we want for personal safety. The hysterics that follow this kind of thing, generated and fomented by the media, make it even worse.
What’s the conclusion? Well, requiring serial numbers on those “kit” guns, period would be a start, and I don’t care how much it inconveniences the buyer. There is a video in the article in which one shop owner says that most kit gun purchasers want the serial numbers and will jump through the hoops to get them, because the parts have been tested by the manufacturers.
Otherwise, let’s start with requiring that everyone have gun/weapons training, starting in 4th grade (or 5th if they are wienies), that they learn how to do things the right way, and apply for a gun owner’s education license by age 16, just like they required of us for driver’s ed in high school.
Your learner’s permit meant your sister had to be in the car with you if you wanted to drive to the A&M Root Beer stand down the road, but it didn’t mean you could make the car jump the ditch and scare the crap out of half a dozen hogs while you ripped up 50 feet of hogwire fencing.
No, a gun learner’s permit means that you take the safety classes, watch the ‘don’t do this’ movies while you’re half asleep after gym class, go to the target range with your certified instructor (who has to be at least 48 and a grizzled Army or Marine vet, or no one will listen to her/him), shoot your bullets, get the marks or scores, pass the gun owner’s written test requirements to get your license, and when you go out on the street, you go with a responsible adult instead of your sister until you get sworn in at the recruiting office.
Unless, of course, you guys have better ideas, that’s my solution to it.
Category: Guns
Pedantic point:
“A gun is a crew-served weapon.”
Technically speaking, you are correct, unless you are using it in the context of “this is my rifle, but this is my gun; this is for shooting, this is for fun.”
Is a SAW suppose to have an assistant gunner?
nope, it is an automatic rifle, not a machine gun.
What the logic behind that is, I do not know…
A gun is a gun when…..its not a sword!…or its not a crossbow!…or its not a baseball bat!…or its not a steak knife!…lol I think a bunch of people out there NEED TO GET A LIFE!
nah, rgr, even that is crew served if you really get down to it…
Not in every instance, but it does fire best with an assistant gunner of the female variety.
I personally enjoy shooting very much. And there’s also the matter of the M1 that’s repeatedly gotten me laid. Can’t they both be for fun?
Move to Texas…
If you shoot a scumbag the sheriff comes over, shakes your hand and gives you an “Atta Boy” for saving the taxpayers several hundred thousand dollars !!!
I take the absolutist view, “shall not be infringed”. The 2A is an enumerated right therefor not open to states’ interpretation via the 10A.
That sepia may have faded but the Creator mandate hasn’t.
Right there with you.
Maine is quite close to that interpretation. There are no licenses or permits or registration required by the state. You may concealed-carry your weapon whenever you like, except for posted areas like court houses, federal buildings, etc, where the warning to NOT have a weapon is clearly posted.
The only time you have to have a background checks if the seller is an FFL holder. Otherwise, private sales between individuals are legal and no paperwork is required.
I love Maine and although the winters are getting to be a bit much for my old-ish frame, and there are too many stank-ass hippies, the beauty nd the gun laws are worth the effort. 🙂
After two tours in Jax, my orders to Maine concerned me. I was happily surprised by the beauty of the place, and the winters, while a bit long, wern’t so bad. Just had to adapt. Mrs. AW1Ed got a good job as office manager at a Doc’s office, and Sons #1&2 were on the black diamonds before I graduated from the Bunny slope.
Having a serial number does not make something any more or less safe to operate should it ever become part of something larger. Mandatory safety classes might have a similar effect. Driver safety classes may or may not have reduced driving fatalities but they certainly have not eliminated drunk driving.
But, every idea should be on the table for discussion. From them perhaps some real solutions can develop.
“The issue here is that these ghost guns with no serial numbers are frequently stolen from the people who built them, making them untraceable.”
This is an unqualified statement. Ask the author to name the law enforcemnt source that compiled the stats and you’ll hear crickets. Most guns can’t be traced beyond the original purchaser as most states don’t have requirements to document when an individual sells their firearm thus serial numbers only provide the original buyer’s info. Crimminals don’t obey the law already, I fail to see how more laws will fix the problem. Permits and training would maybe make some people better shots but I don’t see how it would lessen gun crimes.
Ditto. Serial numbers on firearms don’t prove anything in a criminal trial, unless the number is traced to the defendant or someone close to him. Also a witness saying defendant dirtbag had a 9mm pistol in his possession that looked just like the murder weapon in evidence proves more than a serial number if dirtbag is not the original purchaser.
Serial numbers do prove if the gun is stolen. Though it’s pretty rare to find a stolen gun on the street with the serial number intact.
And I promise that criminals don’t check for serial numbers before stealing a firearm. They also have no way of knowing who has a “ghost gun” (though they could get information on guns bought from a dealer, through a robbery of that property as often happens), so I’d agree with bombstopr, and suggest that that claim is not only unsubstantiated, but most likely bogus propaganda from the anti-gunners.
Serial numbers are worthless for tracing guns without gun registration.
And we ain’t having any of that.
Operation Fast and Furious proves the federal government is woefully inept at tracking weaponry.
You go into illegal and immoral smuggling of weapons with the inept government you have, not the tyrannical government you want.
Zip guns. Old car antenna for a barrel. Clothes pin spring for a trigger group.
.22 cal
Don’t need no stinkin 3D printer.
Ah, the good old days…
Cheaper and easier to build a gun in the plumbing dept at Lowe’s than to 3D print one.
26 Limabeans; In H.S. wood working shop, a couple of the Rocks (NYC term for guys wearing DA haircuts and motorcycle jackets) used a Zippo lighter, car antenna and had a piece of metal with a tack or small nail (firing pin) staked through it and a rubber band that was used as a spring to fire the .22. I heard that later on, zippo changed the diameter of the lighter hole because of that. Any info on that?
Never heard that one.
“Shop” was a hoot. Always some guy going to the nurse after cutting himself.
Ex, I love ya but your knowledge of firearms is a bit spotty.
‘Ghost guns’ have nothing to do with black powder weapons.
The number of people who actually buy BP revolver kits is so low that the main seller, Dixie Gun Works, has to order the kits in from Pietta and the wait time is up to 6 months.) Other than custom-made guns like some of the pricier repro Long Rifles, the two primary manufacturers (Pietta and Uberti) both serial number their guns.
Any resin that will hold modern cartridge pressure (for most cartridges this means roughly 20,000 psi and up – WAY up, thrice that) is not easily obtained at a hobby shop. Why do you think it has taken years of experimentation to make a plastic gun that will fire even once?
Oh, and the folks who dismiss the final machining of an AR lower (which is what the ‘ghost gun’ debate IS about, have no idea how precise the operations are. Hobbyists who try to finish out 80% lowers usually report trashing a few before they figure it out… which costs them more than a normal, serialized lower.
If you think there is good traceability based on serial numbers, you need to cut your TV consumption. That ranks right up there with silencers which just go phht, absolutely instant DNA testing, and post-apocalypse drivers never, ever running out of gas.
Training classes… hell, they don’t even teach civics, history, or shop any more!!!
I agree; every black powder firearm I have ever purchased has a serial number. Thus, the manufacturer has records showing where the gun was shipped to a wholesaler/importer. Retailers like Dixie Gun Works also have records of the initial purchasers. The BP revolver kits may also have serial numbers on the frames, but I am uncertain since I have never built one.
Tracing a firearm by its serial number only has utility to LEO’s if it will result in proving the gun crime suspect possessed the weapon used to commit the crime. Usually, who the intermediate possessors/owners of it are irrelevant. Remember how Maryland’s data base of cartridge cases from newly sold pistols turned out to be useless in solving crimes and was scrapped as a waste of tax dollars.
rgr769. But…but…but the experts in social science said it would solve crimes b/c criminals obtain their guns legally, never change a barrel and would never scratch one to change the ballistic fingerprint. I would like to add that NY thought it so wonderful, it spent 5 mil/yr on the “science” for years before it said, “Shit. This isn’t working.” Turns out that after taxpayer millions were spent by NY and MD, the total number of arrests and convictions resulting from the program was zero. Nada. None. Zip.
BTW. That was another law that purported to solve a problem.
David; your 500 percent on the precise maching that goes into it. I bought a .09MM 92 SF right after the Mil. started to use them but mine was made in Italy where we are now talking metrics VS inch. I ordered two comp. barrels to use for comp shooting at the Freeport PD range out in Freeport LI, NY. The barrels had to be fitted even though the company I bought them said that they were just drop in barrels. Yea right. Being new to basic smithing, I didnt dare touch the slide/receiver but just tried working on the barrels. With all the work using Dykem dye, I still couldn’t rack the gun and the slide would bind up so After many frustrating hours, I rolled up the barrels in an oiled rag and put them away. If I remember, the gun was to be used in what was known as an unlimited class match. I’m probally wrong on wording of the match class because it was awhile back.
.09 mm is really a small caliber.
Oh, then I should have included a disclaimer regarding my lack of knowledge.
Hey, I just quoted the writer of the article. Made no claims of anything else.
Besides, if I start calling gun shops around here, they’ll probably hang up on me and won’t let me in the door when I want to get an FOID.
Generally speaking, when the solution to a problem is more to pass a law, the problem hasn’t yet been solved and may have been worsened.
“when the solution to a problem is more to pass a law….” Take your pick of ‘to pass a law’ or ‘to pass more laws.’ As I found out, you can’t have both.
FYI, the term Ghost Gun is simply means one an individual builds for themselves. It isn’t required to have a serial number assigned and it isn’t allowed to be resold. It is still required to meet all federal requirements(not fully automatic, shotgun 18″ and rifle 16″ minimum barrel length requirements etc). Ghost Guns typically were made from 80% receivers but can also be 3D printed or crudely made from common hardware type materials. There are different types of 3D printers and although many of the lower end ones use plastic as the building medium, there are plenty that use metal. Thus a 3D printed gun isn’t just a plastic one anymore. All one needs is buy the unserialized and unregulated other parts (barrels, uppers, springs, pins, etc) to finnish assembly it into a firearm. Anti-gun people argue this technology being available to the public will allow crimminals to make their own and fully skirt the opportunity for law enforcement to catch them illegally purchasing a firearm, which is a valid concern I think. But they don’t seem to have a problem obtaining illegal fully automatic weapons already. Just as with most advancements though, crimminals will find a way to use them to their advantage.
Pretty sure Hamilton, Jefferson, et al didn’t have no FOID’s.
Of course not! They didn’t live in Illinois.
The gun controllers would likely say, if Aaron Burr had been barred from owning those dueling BP pistols for lack of a FOID, Hamilton would have died of old age.
While the 1851 Navy Colt has classic lines, I’d think you would want something a bit more modern for serious self-defense. Best way to do that is to talk to someone experienced in firearms to help winnow the field, and to test fire as many as you can to see what “fits.”
The fact that this can be a lot of fun should not be overlooked.
*grin*
Black powder percussion revolvers are a pain to load and clean after shooting them. That is partly why they were so rapidly replaced with cartridge revolver. For self-defense they are better than a ball bat, but I wouldn’t want to bet my life on one. There is a reason why back in the day the back-up weapon for a flint or percussion fired handgun was a large knife.
Bro-In-Law made a kit BP percussion cap pistol. 50 caliber and looked almost home made, but what fun to shoot! Surprisingly accurate, big clouds of smoke, and the recoil was more a firm push than the snap of a modern firearm.
We did have to ream it out with a wire brush every four or five shots.
Edited to add:
A pal has a repro Navy Colt, and even with modern powder and percussion caps you can count on a misfire once per cylinder.
Have oops, had, several BP. NOT for primary defense or offense. Ditto all comments above and add, powder is corrosive, can get damp, caps not the same quality, misfire, possible chain fire. Are good for historical program displays, re-enactments, and plinking around. Get you a nice fits your hand modern piece for bad guy disposal.
The ATF folks have decided that some Single shot AR uppers only are a complete firearm now.
“The issue here is that these ghost guns with no serial numbers are frequently stolen from the people who built them, making them untraceable.”
If those “Ghost Guns” are untraceable, as is the contention amongst the anti-gun crowd, how does anyone know that they are stolen frequently? As far as I can tell, in the decades that 80% receivers have been available to the general public exactly one has been used in a crime.
As for licensing of gun owners, not to put too fine a point on it, but hell no! I currently don’t have to have a license to purchase or possess a firearm. Why should I have to get one because a few other states require it? Training in school? Hell yeah! I’m all for it. That can only make future firearms ownership safer should one choose to exercise their 2nd Amendment right later in life. Hand out a cheesy little certificate of completion if that makes folks happy. But not mandatory licensing to purchase or own.
“Kit guns” is a bit of a misnomer. The vast majority of those are black powder kits to make single shot percussion or flintlock black powder muskets or long rifles and single shot percussion or flintlock black powder pistols. Not really the weapon of choice for the local gang bangers and drug dealers. The 80% receivers are in most cases as expensive as a serialized lower. Again, not really the weapon of choice for the criminally inclined. Why go to that expense and trouble when one can simply purchase a stolen gun from the local dealer’s car trunk?
This is all much ado about nothing. For all the anti-gun screeching, “kit guns” or 80% receivers aren’t a problem. All it does is allow the anti-gun mob to look down their self-righteous noses while sitting astride their moral high horse, dropping ignorance and idiotic talking points to the squawkers who will parrot what they say as if it were gospel. Gun owners shouldn’t buy into the manufactured hysteria.
I’m not buying into any hysteria. It comes from the media, because they thinnk it sells their “product” (news). They pander to their lowest common denominator, the fearful, tearful anti-gun people.
But as I said, the people like this Zak guy do stupid things that make it more difficult for those of us who are NOT hysterics about guns, to have access to them.
I haven’t even decided what I want or even IF I want one, but I don’t want my right to get one if I do want one blocked by an idiot like Zak or the writer of the article.
I wasn’t passing judgment on you. I was simply stating what I’ve seen among many who proclaim to be gun owners and “2nd Amendment guys.” They fall all over themselves denouncing those scary black rifles and thirty round magazines. They’ve now added 80% receivers and plastic guns to their litany of outrage.
Unfortunately, as you well know, stupid people do stupid things and leftist “journalists” tell lies and spread hysteria. There’s nothing we can do about that except “keep the faith” and keep telling the truth.
If you do decide to try your hand at an 80% project, purchase two. it’s almost guaranteed that you’ll screw up the first. It happens quite often. To finish an 80% receiver requires a bit of knowledge and a boatload of patience. First, understand the laws concerning 80% receivers. In general, they can’t be made for sale or gifting to another person unless the lower is serialized and registered with the BATFE. Do plenty of research and check Youtube for “hot to” videos. Many 80% manufacturers will post videos of how to finish their product using their jigs. Then don’t be afraid to dive in. It’s a fun little hobby.
The crooks know how to obliterate firearm serial numbers with common tools. There is a law against doing so, but for some reason crooks will not obey it. Oddly, crooks won’t obey the laws that prohibit them from having firearms, or from coitting any other crimes.
Isn’t that weird? It’s like they are lawless lawbreakers or something.
If well-made home-made modern guns were commonly used in crimes, there would be a non-stop parade of news stories about actual ones recovered.
…crickets…..
By the way, “ghost gun” = “assault weapon” = “Saturday night special” = (next bullshit made-up term).
“User-Made Second Amendment Arms” – UMSAA has a decent ring to it, no?
“Liberator” works, and has a historical precedent.
Ban “Cop-killer” bullets was popular to yell from the soapbox. Ban all bullets was harder to yell.
Driving is a privilege – guns are a right. Big difference. I have no problem with hunter safety training to get hunting licenses (just common sense) but beyond that – ain’t no way. Besides, I lost all mine when the boat sank.
The definition of “What is a Gun” is one of those befuddling question that will ensure nothing is accomplished. In my youth, a broken off car antenna could chamber a .22, and many a zip gun was made to do just that.
This is a ‘go no where’ conversation.
Oh, well, in my last paragraph I did include the following:
…a gun learner’s permit means that you take the safety classes, watch the ‘don’t do this’ movies while you’re half asleep after gym class, go to the target range with your certified instructor (who has to be at least 48 and a grizzled Army or Marine vet, or no one will listen to her/him), shoot your bullets, get the marks or scores, pass the gun owner’s written test requirements to get your license, and when you go out on the street, you go with a responsible adult instead of your sister until you get sworn in at the recruiting office.
See, if this article in the newspaper is going to present another controversy that the tearful, fearful, hysterical gun-phobics can latch onto, my solution is REQUIRING that EVERYONE has to go through this, everyone has to qualify, and everyone has to carry a gun and then everyone who wants to keep a gun has to join the military, whether they intend to continue to own/use/hang onto a gun or not.
Heinlein frequently mentioned something about a gun wearer’s oath, but never created the copy for it. I think that would be a good idea, too. That, and requiring military service if someone wants to vote, meet my standards.
Heinlein was required by his anti-gun editor to put that “gun oath” crap in that book.
If you can find the more recent uncensored versions of his “juvenile” books, it is worth the time to read them. The original ending of “Podkayne of Mars”, for example, is -much- better as Heinlein wrote it.
i made my first “Zip” gun at the age of 11. my pop didn’t help me, but he knew i what i was doing and his only requirement is that i make a loading block for the 22 shorts so that after i pulled the lead bullet from it i could press a sheet of paraffin over the now Bullett-less rounds.
it consisted of a 5 inch long steel pipe that i was able to ream out with the awl portion of my pocketknife to accept the paraffin filled .22 shorts, a block of oak acted as the body to hold the barrel and hand grip/trigger. there was another block of wood that fill the hole behind that barre with a roofing nail that had been ground down as a firing pin. lastly was a bracket that fit over the back, secured with screws and after about a box of rubber bands worked fine.
the first time i loaded it and pulled the trigger it went bang!. almost every time after that too. i can almost bet that 40 years later there are still some wax slugs splattered on the wall of my old garage. i was happy as a pig in a portapotty! i eventually got around to shooting real bullets out of it but to this day there is nothing as fun as the gun and bulletts you make yourself.
oh BTW, anything after 1964 needs to have a serial number on it, even if you made it yourself. prior to that there were no requirements to serialize it. so if you buy that 80% receiver and PRIOR to completing that last hole or cut, you are breaking the law…
SGT Fon, there is no federal requirement to serialize a gun you make for yourself. There may be a state requirement depending on the state. For example California requires it. Virgina does not.
My posts are STILL not showing up on here? Can someone please explain to me WHY?
I don’t know, desert, but I caught it. Sorry about that.
Here’s what I regard as credible presentation of the serial numbering and make-your-own issues:
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2017/02/21/am-i-required-to-apply-a-serial-number-to-a-homemade-firearm/