Women Report for Infantry Training
There are 145 women reporting to 11X Infantry class at Ft. Benning now.
https://www.armytimes.com/articles/first-enlisted-women-report-to-army-infantry-school
That Takiyah Carroll? There’s a photo of her.
She can deadlift 225. The requirement is 165.
So shut up.
Category: Army News
As long as they can meet the requirements and standards, good luck to them.
Same here – if they can meet the reqs and established standards, good luck to all of them!
Sure, most will succeed. I just hope that it won’t mean that they’ll actually be assigned to a combat unit afterwards.
Come on. What standards?
The APFT for women is a joke. The sit ups are the same for men and women, but the push ups and 2 mile run are so low, that my minimum to pass, which gets you kicked out of a line infantry unit, is the max reps for women.
So the standards are not the same.
Like someone said here no long ago, the day they eliminate sex discrimination in proffesional sports, when all teams are mixed gender without sex quotas or affirmative action, and there are females on that sport field, i believe is ok to have women in combat arms.
Nah. Im kidding.
I would not believe women belong in the infantry even then.
I guess I am a evil deplorable sexist?
Dead lifting 225 isn’t tough. I’m shocked that the min is 160. Now, if I learned she can bench 225, I would be damn impressed.
Word.
A 225 bench is do-able, especially for fast twitch women w/ short arms and good technique. A 225 chin (BW+load), however, would be very impressive (and far more functional). I’ve seen the former far more than the latter.
Also, it’s not even just a paltry 160 DL, it’s a 160 *hex bar* DL.
hex bar lolz….don’t wanna risk scraping those delicate shins
Yes, especially when the guys going into body building competitions have to have perfectly smooth skin to oil down in the G-string competitions.
Smooches! 🙂
It always amazes me how little those g-strings need to be, compared to all those other bulging muscles.
IME…in military gyms women pulling 225 doesn’t get a second look…benching 225 is like seeing a unicorn
Perspective:
http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/BenchStandards.html
“In military gyms” is doing the work, there. Which is the problem: Women who can physically outperform the marginal infantryman — and there are plenty — aren’t likely to be in the military.
“Women who can physically outperform the marginal infantryman — and there are plenty” …plenty huh….and you’ve done this population based performance study where besides your mind?
But again, what does bench have to do with infantry? They can also breastfeed twins at the same time, which is indeed impressive as well.
They help you to do all those pushups you need to do when your buttons are not properly buttoned, or your gig line isn’t straight. Very handy.
And if they could pick up a dead horse, piss beer, and shit gold bricks, it wouldn’t be good enough for you. THEY will never be good enough for you.
awww….somebody needs a hug
It’s not that I wouldn’t give you your hug, but I have no idea how to find you. Your loss, I guess!
🙂
No it’s more like men and women are different. That’s all.
I agree. That was directed at the “…they’ll never be good enough for you” comment
What, and women can’t kill? Let’s ask Israel, South Korea, or even Russia if it’s impossible to train a woman to take a life. Oh wait…
“What, and women can’t kill?” You could have missed by more but I just don’t know how.
“What, women can’t kill?
That’s a huge oversimplification. We’re talking about infantry MOSs. Did you hold one? Do you have a knowledge base from which to speak from or experience?
I was 11B for 4 years, got out in ’03. Been a cop since then, worked with a lot of great, tough women. Not one of them belonged in an infantry unit. Infantry is different. The way they train, the way they live, they way they bond. Girls and boys are different. The point of the military is readiness, period. It’s absurd that the most physically demanding activity in the world is going co-ed before sports.
Didn’t say they “can’t kill.” Of course they can kill. American forces have had their share of women engaging the enemy in direct combat.
I said we are different.
Penis
Breast
Vagina
Child birth
Body chemicals
Instincts
Even Israel recognized that women are not built for infantry. However, their eyesight is, on average, better than men’s, so they put the women in the batteries of stationary, long-range guns, where their superior aim is an asset, and their lack of strength, endurance, and bone mass isn’t a factor.
Well said. Some groups are just resistant to change. But one day, we’ll look back on this and shake our heads at how primitive we used to be.
G.K. Chesterton says hello and would you like to hear about his fence.
Pinto, it is as simple as this. A pound weighs A POUND. There are no girly pounds to be issued to the crack troops when they deploy into combat. My experience in firefights and combat and such was fairly limited, but I quickly established that there is only two standards in a war – winner or casualty. And the demands are very harsh and stringent. If some woman cannot measure up, see Kara Hultgreen, someone else might be the one to pay the price for social justice bullshit. And women add no benefit to the equation, it is not a right to be in the infantry, and someone should have just said NO a long time ago.
How “fit” will she be after a year or two of training and assignments?
Two words: Bone density. They will likely be suffering from pelvic fractures, etc. due to the weight they have to carry. That is, if they actually carry what they’re supposed to for their positions.
I have to agree with that. One of the ladies with the State Child Care Agency in my locale (Mrs. A Proud Infidel®™ and I have also been Foster Parents) told me of her brief time in the Army where she was Medically Discharged from Basic Training due to a number of splinter fractures in her hips and legs from the loads she carried. She was COMPLETELY honest with me and talked in a tone of voice like she was ashamed of herself for what happened and I heartily applaud her honesty. I see multiple cases like that happening to Female Troopers who will go for the gusto at their own physical peril, most Women won’t be able to “Hump” (Carry on their back and Shoulders) the amount of gear that most Male troopers can, Men and Women are different when it comes to upper body strength and stamina. I wonder how well most Females would be able to hump not only a 45+ pound rucksack, but an additional 20 pounds of web gear with the accessories and say, an M249 Machine gun, let alone am M240 with a couple belts of ammo? Artillerymen must also have good upper body strength and stamina, ditto with Combat Engineers doing say, Panel Bridge Assembly and Disassembly. For instance, in assembling a Medium Girder Bridge (MGB or Mean Green Bitch to Engineer grunts) the lower panels weigh 350 pounds apiece and are a four man carry via carrying handles. The Upper Panels are 200+ pounds apiece, are a four man carry and must not only be lifted above the head level, they must be moved up and down until the Pin Man secures them (The pins are about 24″ long by 2″ diameter and are made of steel). There is extremely repetitive heavy lifting done in that task and I can see far more Females getting injuries than men just because of anatomical differences between the sexes. I see heavy grunt Work as being men’s task and there are a lot of things that Women are better at than we men are. I… Read more »
I rest my case. It has already been happening, to many more women than your acquaintance, Proud.
Forcing the issue of women in combat will result BOTH of the following:
1. A lot of female veterans with painful, permanent disabilities
2. Drastically reduced combat readiness of all of our armed forces
As OWB mentioned in another comment, that second result has been the true goal of the SJWs (and/or their handlers) all along.
Between the time I entered the military and the time I left AD, I myself have done a complete 180 on the issue of women in combat. And NO ONE mentions the effects on a woman’s psyche. . .
I wholeheartedly concur, Eden.
API, you want to know how women would handle a 45lb ruck plus 20lbs of gear. That’s about the same as the amount of food by weight (32KG or 66+lbs) for a 15-day hike, plus water. Water weight is 8lbs/gallon. If distributed evenly, e.g., in pockets, it’s not a burden, but lugging a gallon of water in a jug is a pure pain in the back.
Women do back country backpacking along with men, and carry their own stuff which you’re always expected to do.
I think the more important aspect is motivation. If you’re backpacking in Yellowstone’s back country, you’re not paying attention to the weight you’re dragging. If you’re lugging 65lbs of military equipment on a mud, snake and mosquito infested trail in an infantry training course, you’ll be paying attention to every itch, mosquito bite, blister, bramble scratch, etc. You name it, it gets magnified if you aren’t there for fun. Weather’s a big factor, too.
So the real question is why do women in that kind of training break down more quickly than women who go backpacking, carrying the same kind of heavy load?
EX-PH2,
…So the real question is why do women in that kind of training break down more quickly than women who go backpacking, carrying the same kind of heavy load?…
MISSION.
A combat mission/training is not the same as backpacking … or lifting weights in a gym environment. Infantry stress levels, pace, lack of sleep, etc. are different. You can’t quit when you want to without compromising the mission.
API: Stress fractures are very common with the type of training these ladies (and men) undergo. Primarily of legs, ankles, feet, there is no quick fix. Takes weeks to months to properly heal. So the member is out of the loop for an extended period of time. There can be no immediate return to training upon healing, but requires a build up to previous capability. Speaking from experience, females were much more prone to stress fractures than were men due to basic differences in anatomy. No SJW intervention will alter differences in anatomy & physiology. Not gonna happen no matter how many studies suggest otherwise.
I’ve gone to bat for the ladies many times here. I believe in equal opportunity. HOWEVER, I don’t see a rainbow at the end of the tunnel. Scarce resources will be expended to successfully get the few through training and eventual assignment so the SJW can point to the success of the program. Where does X cross Y to justify this? Yes, it’s going to be done and a few will be successful. Too few, IMO, to justify the allocation of increasingly scarce resources and possible relaxation of standards.
Again, give it a go. I truly hope for a positive outcome, however …
It’s also the little things that nobody really notices. Being able to bench massive amounts of weight is nice, but can they operate the bolt of an M-60 (I’m an old guy) from the prone position? Or a .50 cal. without using your body weight? It’s tougher than you think. Snap together two belts of MG ammo? You need strong fingers for that. And there are other things that need to be done which are quite easy until you need to do them in an awkward position.
Under fire. On little sleep and short rations. In bad weather, in the dark.
Mounting a Ma Deuce (M2 .50 Cal Machine Gun) or a MK 19 (40MM belt-fed full auto Grenade Launcher) and taking it down after the missions, humping (carrying) an M240B Machine Gun (What replaced the M60 a belt-fed .308 caliber MG)on Patrol, spending many hours on one’s feet wearing Body Armor (@40 pounds by itself) along with Ammo and web gear,… I’ve BTDT and now have the shoulder, knee and back pain years afterward from the abuse I heaped on my body and I’m sure it would take a worse toll on a Woman’s body.
Hoping they make it and are assigned to units in peacetime. Weed them out after a few years in the field. Hope they make it and can CONTINUE to do so.
There are 145 of them. I hope they make it through the training.
I also hope the instructors show no mercy, because as many of you have said in plain English, the training itself is difficult, but it’s only training. It’s not the real, in your face, shoot-shoot-bang-bang deal where people want to kill you.
I do wish them well.
What’s deadlift got to do with infantry?
A heck of a lot more than timed sit-ups.
Well that’s a good point.
True, but it is an indicator of being able to lift heavy weights, a fairly importand skill(?) in all the combat arms. Like getting my rucksack from the ground to my back. Or lifting 55 gallon drums full of trash, etc. onto a truck bed. Or lifting an 81 mm. mortar off the ground by the bipod legs when doing a large deflection change.
There is lots of heavy lifting to be done in the combat arms, and you don’t always have the luxury of using the correct form. I predict a large number of sprains, strains, etc.
Some will definitely graduate training no doubt, but my concern is if we can still call it a brotherhood or will it be personhood now?
Yes, I wonder about that, too, since Boaddicea was, after all, a woman warrior who led the Celts against the Romans, and beat them. Yeah, yeah, I know – the Romans caught her and took her prisoner, but only because they lured her into a bottleneck area.
Our culture has bred their women to be delicate for hundreds of years. Breeding humans is no different than breeding horses; you breed for delicate long bones and small feet, that’s what you get. You breed for bone mass and strength, that is also what you will get. Look at the pictures of the soldiers in Vietnam. Skinny lanky boys. Not one of them could swing with modern infantry. We’ve bred our men bigger and stronger than they were then. Not intentionally, exactly. Our culture has begun to turn in a direction that lends itself to that. And slowly, our women are getting stronger, too.
“Breeding humans is no different than breeding horses;”
Oh dear sweet Flying Spaghetti Monster please help Pinto Nag understand that unlike horses you cannot control who a human “breeds” with and that sexual dimorphism is more pronounced in some species than in others for reasons that have nothing to do with “culture”. Amen!
Female elephants ALWAYS choose a bull that is much larger than they are for a mate. ALWAYS.
And when these girls are done with it, they broadcast it loud enough to wake the dead.
Well Elephants live in matriarchal groups that exclude adult males, and adult males compete for dominance to see who among them will get mating rights. So that explains why larger males get to mate and why females signal when mating is complete. Thus those are understandable and explainable behaviors-which is more than I can say about making a comparison between human and equine mating behaviors.
Fascinating. Really. Never before considered just how like elephants humans are.
“Look at the pictures of the soldiers in Vietnam. Skinny lanky boys. Not one of them could swing with modern infantry.”
I know a particular Vietnam Veteran in my Family is like to see you say that too. Wow…
Don’t know about the Army, but the Marine grunts I know humped as much gear weight as far, with NO vehicle support beyond the initial helo ride into the bush. Every bit as hard as today.
An interesting perspective, however a little off. Perspective
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2011/09/12/are-you-as-fit-as-a-world-war-ii-gi/
PN. I am aware of no lebensborn project in the US. Do sperm banks where you live pay more for big, strong donors?
It’s not breeding that makes today’s soldiers bigger, it’s fashion. Exercise is much more widespread and popular now than it was back then. And those massive pecs and delts are purely ornamental in the field; just more weight for the legs and back to cope with.
Rambo looked great in the movies, but in the real world he would be puffing along at the back of the column while the little skinny guys trotted by him.
But yet STILL a male and a female APFT.
Why?
Because vaginas. That’s why.
Ain’t gonna work well. Ain’t gonna turn out well. The different standards alone will wreck it.
Lets see how this works in combat, with no papering over the reality, no double standards, no different standards.
Lets see this done even-steven, or spare me the BS.
In fairness to the women volunteering for this, if they fail to hold -themselves- to the prior male-only standard, they will forever be known as the easy-course people, the “gimmies”, the pencil-whipped ones.
Which doubly-sucks for those few who genuinely -do- meet the prior standards. No one will believe it because of the double-standards and two-tier standards.
Show me.
Infantry sounds cool.
Until you have to do it.
You, Green Thumb, win the internet today!
and do it and do it and do it
That’s why we few understand why the sky is blue.
https://onsizzle.com/i/everybody-wants-to-be-a-gangster-untilaitstime-to-do-somegangster-1680178
It’s complete bullshit. Women run separate marathon events, at the elite / pro level anyways, for good reason….
We’re different. End of story. Not better – just different.
Wait until someone gets passed over for promotion.
Saw it before. We will see it again.
The “card” in 3…2…1…
My favorite example is;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Flinn
But I am sure this would never happen again, because all women are just so doggone nice now.
“She can deadlift 225. The requirement is 165.”
very cute….and meaningless
“So shut up unless you actually earned an infantry MOS.”
I fixed that for you. Celer Silens Mortalis!
Love you, too, IDC. I just don’t want you guys waving your dicks around over this.
all in fun 🙂
Hope so. Don’t need a caste system on TAH.
Dicks”? Not really. Although peeing while standing is handy during patrols.
“XY” chromosomes is more the reason, and the hormones that shape our bodies, minds, attitudes.
You cant fake that with PT and attitude.
What is the weight differential between female MMA and male MMA? The “spread” where you geet an even-steven fight?
Fifty? Eighty?
That is about as “combative” as we get, short of combat, and the ladies are not exactly square up to the guys.
What percentage of those 145 women in 11X will finish -above- the 50% line of their male peers? Is it even 5%? What percentage will be in the male lowest 25%? Half? Three quarters?
Thats why the skewed scores wreck morale. It is an open announcement of “unequal”.
Dont believe me?
In OSUT (basic plus advanced 11B) i was a bit older than my peers. I aged over a line while there, and went on the “easier” scale for 24 versus 17.
I took a bunch of shit for that, from people i out scored, but not out repped. The job didnt get easier for me. I thought, at the time, the score shift was -dumb-, especially the higher ones.
OK. Objective test time. Company contests:
Single elimination Pugil Stick matches
10 mile ruck march, full combat load, forced pace
Rifle qualification
In -that- order, same day.
What percentage of those ladies finish at or below the male middle? Finish at all?
11E10R8
“She can deadlift 225. The requirement is 165.”
Sadly, she was unable to complete the “Pickle Jar Test” portion of the assessment….
Oh, she didn’t have a church key? That works for me every time.
That’s my first choice these days. I have had enough sprains and spills.
I train active duty troops on Fort Bragg…no secret there.
My concern, since we have females already integrated into the training in one MOS, I have seen:
-Favoritism towards the women
-Sexual politics b/t students
-Women throwing the vagina card
-Women blaming their periods on test/practical exercise failures
-changes in standards to accommodate women
-changes in skills taught, to avoid possible PC notions regarding women which equates to decreased skills in both the men and women
The women have higher failure/injury/eventual attrition even when afforded more chances than any male
I just don’t see the same being a positive if it spills into the other MOSs as well.
We should always be upholding standards and increasing knowledge skills and abilities. The consequences of the integration I have seen firsthand does none of those.
None of this was done to enhance combat effectiveness, that’s the BLUF. If that isn’t the objective then none of the other arguments about “fairness” or “equality” matter one iota.
How many deployment pregnancies do you see? My daughter said they were rampant at Bragg.
NOT just that but in my AD days I had female troops BRAG to me that they used the “I think I’m pregnant” line to duck out of field training. I wonder how many times Infantry CO’s will have to put up with that when sub-par female troops use that to duck out of field exercises and road marches?
See my response below, API.
OK, please check out my reply above, Ex-PH2. I respectfully and sincerely think that the Military’s PC policies from the previous administration is going to HURT far more Women than they will help.
No argument from me, API, and OWB says essentially the same thing. This kind of change can’t be force and be successful.
This is my view of it: http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=70105&cpage=1#comment-2953001
Depending on the balls the Army might develop with a real SECDEF and President, Once and OUT.
Word.
Hmmm…. Well, with all due respect, IDC_SARC, it sounds more like sheer laziness and self-centered behavior than actual girl-stuff to me.
1 – Everybody has a bad day. I’ve had plenty, still carried on, as did other women.
2 – These whiners are a complete embarrassment to the women who went before them, women who risked their lives during World War II to ferry planes cross-country and trans-ocean in all weather, who served as nurses and whatEVER in the Pacific and Europe during WWII, Korea, and Vietnam (generalizing), and who did NOT do any of those things. These silly bitches do NOT measure up to those women. Period. They can’t hold a candle to my niece, a surgical nurse at a CASH in Baghdad, or civilian women like Dickie Chappelle, who died from a shrapnel wound in Vietnam.
I don’t know how to do VAGINA shaming, but they sound like a bunch of spoiled, self-centered snots who thought they were going to have an easy time and found out it IS NOT.
And since I know that there are plenty of women who DID go the OEF/OIF and did NOT play those asinine games, they can’t hold a candle to them, either.
If you like, I can come down to Fort Bragg and give them hell for being lazy, useless slackers and then watch them slink out the door to find some other line of work. 🙂
But then, I’m a bitch and it probably would make them weep and whine.
Just let me know.
I can’t speak from your experience, I can only speak from mine …and as always you have valid points…as well as some which while valid do not necessarily equate to being able to obtain and perform in an infantry MOS.
Army gone do what Army gone do…I can’t help but reflect on what I know after 24 years about what it takes to be in an infantry MOS and the additional 14 years I’ve been training them up to the present.
The problem is not that good and capable women have always existed who step up to do whatever job needs to be done, PH. The problem is that we are now seeing the back side of too many being rushed in with little to no regard for the inevitable growing pains that come with radical changes, even when the changes might have been good.
Agreed, OWB. The changes should have been more gradual instead of the slam-bam-deal with it approach, and it is having a detrimental effect on the people who are dedicated, hard workers.
The Army SJWs have no patience. They are essentially making demands that women start graduating these courses. Most that the demands, as in where I work, never held the MOS in the first place.
That should read, “Most that make those demands….”
And that is just wrong, IDC SARC, and on that most everyone should be able to agree. A guaranteed failure for whatever the experiment was. Nobody wins that way. A bunch of people get hurt in the process, to say nothing of diminishing readiness. Were I given to conspiracy theories, I would say that was the real agenda for the SJW’s. Anything to screw up our military effectiveness.
I wholeheartedly concur with that.
That is a sensible and reasonable assessment, OWB. The kickback–or I should say gag reflex–is worse when something is jammed down one’s throat. Makes me think of ThatGuy’sCare and the Sup Ct’s gay marriage abomination.
Well, the thing is, it happens in the civilian work force, too. It isn’t something new or different. The women who do this expect to be handed the privilege and the bennies without doing the work for them.
The real difference between the civilian work world and the military is your paycheck: not the amount, but the expectation that you’re going to do your job, period, and all that other stuff is immaterial.
I think these women you’re describing don’t have the work ethic they should have, so they use excuses of all sorts.
At the same time, you’d have to work hard to convince me that you don’t find the same excuses and slacker behavior in some of the men.
The difference is, Ex-PH2, that the men who make those excuses get weeded out and don’t pull the vagina card as a result.
Far too true. It’s long past time the vagina card was punched out and tossed into the round receptacle.
Oh, really. I guess I missed the female football players in the NFL, as they are part of the civilian workforce. The bottom line question for me is why is this being done other than pacifying some progtard SJW femi-nazi’s and someone’s notion of “women can do anything men can do and just as well.” You don’t us whining about the stuff ladies can do better than us.
Ex-PH2, while I am absolutely certain that your Niece is doing her damnedest to accomplish her mission and do her job right no matter what, I have to respectfully say that THERE IS a difference between say, a Nurse and a Combat Medic humping outside the wire with a unit of doorkicking grunts. the Grunts are constantly carrying an assload of weight on their bodies that WILL take its toll on their bodies in later life and the same amount of gear will take a much worse toll on a Woman’s body. A good Nurse is worth her weight in Platinum and I hold a high regard to the Medical Personnel serving in harm’s way, I might likely be dead or disabled if it weren’t for some of them that took good care of me over there when I had something go wrong!
I know exactly where you’re coming from, API.
My niece used to run marathons, but the stress she was under in Baghdad gave her bursitis in both hips and she can’t run any more. Now she’s a trauma nurse instead, and some day, she’ll have to have hip replacements in both sides.
But no, what she did is not close to the same thing as a field medic, and that requires a completely different mental state, never mind the physical strength required to carry the load of gear.
However, you are going to see women in the field medic positions in the future, like it or not, if they aren’t already there.
@Ex-PH2
Have you seen the exhibition (or the book) Requiem: By the Photographers Who Died in Vietnam and Indochina? There’s a particular poignancy since some of the pictures were printed from the photographers’ last roll of film, or were even of the last thing they saw before their death. I only mention it because Heut’s “Last Rites” photo of Chappell (not to mention many of her own) was part of the exhibition.
Also: “And since I know that there are plenty of women who DID go the OEF/OIF and did NOT play those asinine games….”
I’ve met a fair amount of female smoke jumpers (from North America and Russia), aid doctors (from various countries), climbers, employees 3-agencies, etc., and none played those games.
Guy plays games/fails: “Guess he couldn’t hack it.”
Woman plays games/fails: “Guess women can’t hack it.”
I didn’t see the exhibition, but I did see the book when it was originally published.
If women are blaming their unsat performance on their periods, that right there is a case in point why they should NOT be in combat slots. Do they think our enemies will cut them any slack just because it’s “that time of the month”?
The bottom line is that far too many of these SJWs, male and female, think it’s all about them and their careers, and it’s not. It’s about winning wars, and you do that by choosing those that are most suited to the task and committed to the mission, not the ones who want it for their own personal fulfillment.
Yes, but how do you ingrain responsibility for anything into someone who has never been made to understand he or she is responsible for the consequences of bad behavior? With them, it’s always someone else’s fault.
Unfortunately, that is the state of our society, no thanks to two generations of “special snowflake” training by the public school system, colleges/universities, permissive parenting philosophy (which in many cases has turned into non-parenting, baby daddies, daycare at 6 weeks old, etc.), subjective morality, and so on, ad nauseum.
I would think that would be the perfect time to give the gals a K-Bar and an E-tool and point them at the bad guys.
Not impressed. Deadlifting is way different than repeated muscle movement. Let’s see her force march or patrol days on end in full rattle. I have said it before, good for her in wanting to try but women are not men. They are biologically different in muscle structure and recovery time. All eventually break down at some point when trying to operate under a load. Men get stronger and build muscle, women max out early and start breaking down. Science wins every argument.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so what? Men complain when they’re constipated. Try harder.
Who said anything about complain. Shit, I complain all the time. It’s physical breakdown I’m talking about. You can be Stoic Bob and still not be able to shoulder a ruck and have your legs give out.
It is also true that if men had to give birth we would go extinct.
Hah! Yes, we would indeed go extinct. Thank you for my morning laughter!
Negative. Trying harder is a definite no-no for constipation. The cure (even if it works) can be worse than the disease.
This conversation would be much easier if so many folks out there did not confuse the word equal with the word same. Male folks and female folks may be equal in our society but they are certainly not the same. Similar, yes, in many ways which allow us to swap blood in transfusions and transplanted organs, if the blood and organs otherwise match, but we are not the same. Folks within each gender are not even the same, so why should anyone act as though we are the same across the genders?
Oh, well. It’s a tiresome argument to many of us who have lived with these social experiments for decades now and have intimate knowledge of the good and the bad that comes of it. Unfortunately, there have been many more negative results than favorable ones from my view.
Okay, I read all the arguments against, most of which I’ve seen before, and what it boils down to is work ethic ahead of male/female stuff. There was an article in one of those extra sections in the paper this week relaying the info that women in the work place who are working mothers generally get lower pay and more discrimination than non-mom women. This is the civilian work place, not the military, so bear with me. Women in the civilian work force are there for various reasons, e.g., retirement accounts, Social Security credits, mortgage payments, college funds for their kids, family medical insurance, groceries, transportation, household bills. The list is endless. If they start a job, then take time off to get married, they’re frequently asked ‘Are you going to have kids, and when?’, and despite the Family Medical Leave Act, they sometimes find their jobs handed over to someone else when they return from pregnancy leave, and they have to start over. It’s not supposed to be that way, but it IS that way. So we girls in the civilian work force generally shut our mouths and put up with a lot of shit from employers who are openly prejudiced against women doing normal things like having a family, because we need the damn paycheck to pay the bills, the mortgage and put food on the table. We put up with shit bosses and hope for a good supervisor if the shitass boss leaves, because we have something at stake. The women that IDC_SARC and the rest of you are bitching about, who constantly play the pussy card in one way or another, do not have anything like that at stake. They don’t have the work ethic that their non-whiny, no-excuses military and civilian counterparts have, and most likely won’t, until or unless they get fired, and they exist in both the civilian work force and the military. It’s not unique to either environment. To be clear, I’m NOT including those women who do carry their share of the load and are not prima donnas. The only way… Read more »
There are a plenty of us of both genders who will never understand how someone can take maternity leave, those left in the workplace must to the work while that one is off, yet she returns to no loss of seniority. That makes absolutely no sense. (Same applies where men can take maternity leave as new daddies.)
“The women that IDC_SARC and the rest of you are bitching about, who constantly play the pussy card in one way or another, do not have anything like that at stake.”
I didn’t say or imply they were in any way a majority. The majority simply work hard and don’t make it. I don’t know why you’re calling my observations and reflections bitching either. I don’t debase your opinions even when I disagree or they rely on what is arguably legend, as being bitching.
Sorry, IDC, my very bad.
Also, I don’t always have valid points. Sometimes, I’m full of pure baloney, and we all know it. You are quite welcome to take the mickey out of me any time you wish to.
You mean your human, Ex-PH2? Welcome to the club! 😉
“Sometimes, I’m full of pure baloney, and we all know it.”
*sigh* Lucky you. I’m full of pure sh**. On the plus side, it’s good for one’s humility.
PS
I like to think of my opinions as being “works in progress”, subject to change without notice.
Infantry Drill Sergeant here, who recently picked up an all-male class…
If females can make it through training, okay, we’ll find out how they fare in the real world. That said, we see many males quit or get injured within days of getting here. I’m a father of multiple daughters and have served varying assignments (many far different than those of typical Infantry NCOs); I wouldn’t have my daughters go through much of my Infantry experience.
50 years ago, when I asked about going in to a Combat Camera Group, which would have been CINCPACFLT, I was told that the Navy did not send women into combat zones. I had stuff in my head about women like Dickie Chappelle. I was dumb enough to think that a combat cameraman simply loaded the camera and shot the pix, and then processed the film. I had no idea then what it really meant, aside from actual combat. It also meant going through BUD/s with the UDT guys, and qualifying at least as a combat swimmer, which I don’t think I could have done.
Now, I am better informed, and unless there was no other option, I would not ask for an assignment like that because I have better sense. The Navy’s combat camera people now train with the SEAL teams. It does not mean that they qualify as SEALs, they just follow the same training.
I doubt I could have made it back then, when I was much younger and uninformed, and I’m not sure I would have applied for that if I’d known what was required.
As it is, the people who are now demanding these changes are NOT the people who will suffer the effects of those demands. The impact of those changes will be felt by people under them, to their detriment.
According to what I read you’re conflating that “training with SEALS” a bit.lol
They’re learning enough that they aren’t a “liability.”
Which makes sense, since most squids don’t know how to even put on 782 gear without further training.
Point taken.
From what I read that training is also needed, because these photographers are definitely going into some shoot and move situations and have taken both casualties and performed with valor. Fukkin A
“I wouldn’t have my daughters go through much of my Infantry experience.” Moerk’s email isn’t being accepted at the Pentagon any longer. Not since 20 January, anyway. Glad you can say what you want w/o fearing Ms. Arcom.
Moerk? OH YEAH, that creature that Looked like Gollum in ACUs and Makeup.
Also, if I haul back and pop a female Ranger/Infantrywoman in the face because of her attitude and mouth, will I be punished?
I have done the same to male counterparts and have the same done to me.
We take it outside and solve the issue. Its the way it has always been.
Will it be the same? Or will it be a “hate” crime?
“We take it outside and solve the issue.” Man are those days gone.
If she’s really smart, she’ll duck and clock you where it hurts the most, GT. But you should also consider that if she does have a mouth and an attitude, she may have earned it the hard way.
Fair enough.
Those of us who engaged in these types of, um, settlement negotiations a few times know that the value of them is mutual respect and, often times, admiration, if not friendship.
If this happened between a male infantry- person and a an infantrywymyn, the male will be going to the stockade or the EEOC officer, minimum. Besides everyone knows you are not supposed to hit girls. If you smack one in your family, plan on having all your guns confiscated. Anyway, that is what I hear happens in the Peoples Republic of Taxifornia.
It happens that way everywhere now thanks to The Lautenburg Amendment.
More than once I have seen Female troops talk back to a Superior NCO or Officer and then play the gender Victim Card afterward. I’ve also seen Female Troops wear a 1SG down to the point where they got away with saying shit that would get a Male Troop Article 15’ed faster than a Jimmy Walls works wino balls behind a bus stop!
That never happened when I was in, API. If you were junior to someone, male or female, and acted like that, you got your ass chewed, period. There was no differentiation between the men and the women. Some things have changed and not for the better.
However, it’s possible that more changes we don’t see now will straighten things out.
With all of the SJW BS inflicted on the US Military beginning with the Clinton Curse, a lot of Senior NCOs and Officers are more concerned about too many EO Complaints affecting their evaluations than they are about maintaining good order and discipline. I miss the Good Old Days when wall to wall counseling and “Smoke Sessions” were used instead of the candyassed namby-pamby bullshit paper trails they use nowadays.
Amen and Hallelujah to that! I had an E-4 in 2009-10 at Balad who would play both the race and gender card and our leadership was so petrified of her that she could basically get away with whatever she wanted. I was only too happy to leave that unit behind.
We were stuck with an E3 like that in Kuwait and they had to keep up a crazy paper trail of her antics because of the way she liked to bawl while waving her gender and ethnicity flags.
I have absolutely NO use for women like that! NONE!
As an old 11B I think that right or wrong, politically and socially correct or incorrect, this costly experiment simply will not work in the end. No matter what the training happens here in the states, when it’s time to search out, close with and kill the enemy, this will not work. Not for the women and not for the men assigned with them.
Besides that, I predict there will be a significant number of the so called infantry-wymyn who cannot deploy because they can’t strap their body armor over their growing baby-bumps.
When I was in RVN, it was not uncommon to run across people who would have cheerfully killed every living thing in Southeast Asia if it had meant going home one day sooner. In all the years since, I have never, not once, met a woman racked into the same head-space.
Being bitchy is not the same as being lethal.
Okay, Perry, but please account for that hellborn bitch known as the Apache.
Word.
I usually prefer to stay outta these conversations but I have a legit question.
Is there training during Infantry School that helps prepare a Soldier in the event they are captured?
If so, what changes would be necessary to prepare a woman?
Not really. The only really effective training for this is SERE (Survival Evasion Resistance and Escape) School. The basic/ AIT school doesn’t have the time or resources to do this 2 or 3 week course at BCT/AIT. This training is only conducted for pilots and special operators on a as needed basis. For example, everyone assigned to an Army Special Forces unit or SF qualified does not go through this course. I am sure the current Special Force qual or Q course has some instruction on this; and I imagine there is a block of minimal instruction on this in connection with the Code of Conduct instruction at basic. The Army will make no changes to prepare a woman for capture because the alter of “equality” is paramount, thanks to the 0bamabots.
Actually, SFQC has SERE school on steriods as part of the course.
I stand corrected, since my reference is back to the olden days. I think my reference to BCT/AIT is still correct. And I doubt any Army training is geared to how women should expect to be treated by ‘Slamofacists. Of course, they could just tell them to read the news from the middle east
All I can say is that monumental amount of resting bitch face in formation on the AM will be hard to take
This is a golden opportunity for the Army do do a professional and thorough assessment of the feasibility of assigning women to Infantry units.
At the end of a year or 18 months DOD needs to take the data and present it and make a call on if it should continue.
If all we are doing is crippling female soldiers and putting them in MOSs they cant make a career of we aren’t doing them any favors.
It’s not a matter of these women being able to do the job physically. I’m sure quite a few women can do the job and hold up physically.
I just never felt comfortable with the thought of men and women co-mingling in the same platoon, team, etc. More so if it involves a combat infantry unit.
No matter how professional you want to be, you’ll never overcome human biology and the innate desire for men and women to mate. All it takes is just one guy to get jealous or be involved with a female team member, and then all hell will break loose. The guy focusing more on impressing the girl than focusing on the mission at hand. We really don’t need that sort of petty drama, do we?
In regards to that, we had 6 women enter our Airborne Company and inside of a year 5 of them were pregnant. No knock on them but when you put young men and women together stuff like that happens.
It didn’t surprise me that the guys and gals were hooking up just that so many seemed to have no idea what birth control was.
Put a young Joe and a young Jane together in the field long enough and what do you get?
A pregnant Jane.
Yeah, I say that.
“I’m sure quite a few women can do the job and hold up physically.”
Ummmm… no they can’t.
Any sort of unbiased study done shows that they can not.