Bullet ban as gun control
Fox News reports that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is set to ban “green tip” M885 5.56mm ammunition for the popular AR-style firearms, based on the barely true fact that the ammunition can be fired in a pistol. I don’t know how many AR pistols there are out there, but they are unwieldy things and not very accurate – but they are scary-looking. But anyway, the president is taking executive action to effectively render useless firearms upon which Congress won’t take action.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives this month revealed that it is proposing to put the ban on 5.56mm ammo on a fast track, immediately driving up the price of the bullets and prompting retailers, including the huge outdoors company Cabela’s, to urge sportsmen to urge Congress to stop the president.
There are many more rifles than pistols which use the ammunition, but that doesn’t seem to matter to the BATF/White House.
From the Washington Examiner, Congressman Bob Goodlatte, the Republican chairman of the House Judiciary Committee is pushing for legislation to block the executive action;
BATFE says that since the bullets can be used in semi-automatic handguns they pose a threat to police and must be banned from production, sale and use. But, as Goodlatte noted, the agency offered no proof. Federal agencies will still be allowed to buy the ammo.
“This round is amongst the most commonly used in the most popular rifle design in America, the AR-15. Millions upon millions of M855 rounds have been sold and used in the U.S., yet ATF has not even alleged — much less offered evidence — that even one such round has ever been fired from a handgun at a police officer,” said Goodlatte’s letter.
Even some police don’t buy the administration’s claim. “Criminals aren’t going to go out and buy a $1,000 AR pistol,” Brent Ball, owner of 417 Guns in Springfield, Mo., and a 17-year veteran police officer told the Springfield News-Leader. “As a police officer I’m not worried about AR pistols because you can see them. It’s the small gun in a guy’s hand you can’t see that kills you.”
Even in pistol form, the AR-style firearm is more than 20 inches long – a little hard to conceal, a lot harder than, say, an 8″ long 1911-style handgun, which is still considered pretty big to conceal under clothing for many people.
But, yeah, I told you to stock up more than two years ago.
Thanks to Chief Tango for the link.
Category: Gun Grabbing Fascists, Politics
Hey, as long as we stop all of the law-abiding citizens of the country from being able to carry firearms, then the criminals won’t carry them. It worked in Hitler’s Germany, Mao’s China, Stalin’s Russia, and other countries that implemented gun control.
The Nazis did not further restrict gun ownership. They significantly weakened and loosened gun control laws.
I know you won’t believe me because this myth of Nazi Germany is so pervasive and used for so long that nobody could imagine it is untrue. Hell, I have even used it myself in the past.
However, it is false. The Germans did not further restrict gun ownership. In many ways they encouraged it and loosed the Weimar restrictions.
China did not implement gun control until 1949. After the second Chinese civil war. By that time more than 3,000,000 had already been killed. The 1958 Great Leap forward that killed the bulk of the casualties during the Mao regime (20 million) caused massive famine. Gun are terrible at fighting famine. Most rural Chinese had access to firearms throughout the Great Leap forward. The MAO regime was primarily concerned with disarming nationalist supporters which tended not to be rural farmers.
You’re kind of right. Hitler did loosen gun control laws, but not for so-called “undesirables.” Jews were not allowed to own weapons of any kind, as were a number of other minorities. They were also outlawed in annexed and occupied territories as well.
I am not giving up gins because I do not trust governments. However, the evidence that genocide was made possible by gun laws is just not supported by the evidence.
*guns
*grins
Could we stop a genocide without them?
Is this the time to point out that a gunsmith I know in Colorado build a handgun out of 460 Weatherby Magnum rifle?
The customer lived in Hawaii and wanted it as a backup when pig hunting.
The ‘smith’s daughter fired it. He took it to a benchrest match and offered free shots (Jack, I think) if people would shoot it. He only got a few takers – benchrest shooters aren’t ALL crazy.
This is a picture of the ‘Hand Gun’. It has a barrel of 10.5″ They are most often purchased in 7.62mm.
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/images/products/detail/HG3237NRIGHTD.jpg
What you have a picture of is an Ak style pistols. based on the AK 47 platform.
What they are talking about is the AR style pistol a completely different animal
I know what I posted. ‘The Hand Gun’ as pictured can be purchased in just about any configuration including the NATO 5.56.
How a weapon ‘Looks’ has nothing to do with its capabilities. The ballistics of an AK or AR looking gun chambered for the identical round are the same.
No, M885 ammo will not penetrate class IIIA when shot from a 7″ weapon. This whole topic is being bought up by people who have no idea what they are taking about.
In short, the shorter the barrel the less muzzle velocity and less penetration. It does not matter what the damn thing shooting the round looks like.
They are not a different animal because they look different. Short barrels lose up to 30% of developed muzzle velocity. http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1093
The inverse is true. A standard 9mm+p with a longer barrel will develop nearly the same velocity with a much heavier round. +p+ FMJ 9mm pistol ammo shot from an 16″ barrel will out perform 5.56 from a 10″ barrel every time.
The pressure loss at bullet exiting the barrel will exceed 18,000 psi in very short barrels. Loss of pressure = less velocity.
I could take the time to explain barrel twist and accuracy but let me just say that I would much rather be in a gun fight with an opponent using m885 ammo with a 7″ barrel than 9mm +p ammo with a 16″ barrel.
It does not matter what the thing looks like.
The gun experts in govt confiscated and arrested a man for having a 1700’s flintlock…! They were just about to do ballistic tests on it…ROFLMAO! ballistics on a smooth bore…what embeciles…they finally dropped the charges, must have talked to someone with some sense?
I had seen that article. I didn’t know they finally dropped the charges. Poor judgement by an officer, but the idiot should have known to lock it in the trunk. Thanks for the update.
OK smart ass,
Having built several AK and AR pistols I am very familiar with them.
Now Ak pistols rated for a 5.56 are a rare thing more often than not they are for Rem ,223
Check the attitude
Oh, so you mean like this one, NATO 5.56 and uses both AK and AR Mags. This is actually one of the most popular ones, probably because of its price.
I did a poor job of making my point at first. They can dress these things up to look any way they want, that has no impact on their ability to penetrate body armor.
Banning rifle ammo that can be fired from a ‘pistol’ because it penetrates body armor when fired from a rifle means you have to ban pistol ammo that will do the same thing if fired from a rifle.
Sorry about the ‘smart ass’ its just a free service I offer. Really, consider it checked, no offense intended. My sense of humor comes across more abrasive than intended sometimes. Semper Fi.
http://www.jgsales.com/yugo-zastava-pap-m85np-ak-style-pistol,-krinkov-pattern,-5.56mm-223-,-wood-stock,-accepts-ar-mags,-new.-p-69747.html
I like the cut of your jib Dave. Keep it up, and add some extra sass if you so choose. We can take it.
Thats ok, sometimes it comes across in a manner I did not intend.
We all have moments, I have never been shy about backing the fuck up if need be.
Semper Fi
They can’t do it all at once. They know that, so they chip away and chip away and chip away. A disarmed or minimally armed public is easiest to govern. Am I suggesting that a day may come when the public is so enraged it is willing to do bloody battle with the government? The government must certainly think so. It isn’t doing the gun-grab cha-cha for our safety.
Death by a thousand cuts. Operation Choke Point to dry up credit and financing. Banning the ammunition used in the common AR platform. And so your freedoms get removed….
Democrats have to disarm those troublesome “little people” (formerly called “peasants”) for “social justice” or something…
Didn’t the EPA try to ban the use of lead in rounds some time ago as well?
They are still working on it and it appears that they are going to do it. Kind of a 1-2 punch by this administration.
“Aaaahhhnold” signed something like that when he was “Governator” of Kalifornia, I don’t know how long that stuck!
Real smart! how many decades has that ammo been available? for target shooting, for hunting…we need a complete overhaul of this govt!!
I think that this picture is a better example:
http://www.bushmaster.com/firearms/pistols.asp
I used to own an AK rifle with a folding stock in 5.56. You would have to have forearms like a gorilla to use it as a pistol. I couldn’t even raise it half way even without a magazine. It was a Norinco 84s-1 with 3 mags and a drum.
Why this one round? It’s not the only round available for these weapons, is it? I’m not buying that “armor piercing” bs for a second. I can go down right now with a wad of cash and buy a .50 cal bolt action rifle at a local gunstore. So why this round and why now?
Pinto Nag: because they think they can.
Pinto Nag, it goes along with their thinking of the black guns as looking evil and if this is the only way to do them in so be it.
2/17 said it – they just chip away. Like the thousands of Garands they won’t bring back.
What Garands?? Isn’t that a WWII rifle?
Yes it was.
And thousands and thousands of them were ‘loaned’ to allied countries in the 50’s, a small number of which have made their way home through programs like the Civilian Marksmanship Program.
They are an exceptional weapon despite their age, and highly prized and sought after by shooting aficionados like myself.
If the government would allow those stocks that are still overseas to come home, a lot more would be available, and at a price more people could afford.
Frankly, if I could afford the rifle and the 30-06 ammo it fires in bulk, Id rather own a Garand than an AR.
So, our allies are probably using more modern weapons for their militaries, and the Garands are, what? Moldering in a warehouse somewhere? Being cut up and buried?
Pretty much dead on. 🙁
yes indeed, made in America, and south Korea offered to send them back to us, they are outstanding deer/game rifles, and now collectors items, but the “wise one” or was that “wise guy” in the oval orfice said no!
I dont want to start a big debate but I think I can offer some insight.
Armor piercing rounds are illegal to own.
This round does not fit the current definition of armor piercing however there is a pretty good argument that it is.
The ATF and Holder recently got their PEE PEE smacked over another federal law concerning Hand gun transfers between states, their reaction is this.
I understand what you’re saying, my rebutal is that MOST full metal jacketed high powered rifle ammunition will defeat body armor, whether designed to or not.
They just want to deprive civilians of “military” ammo and restrict practice/usefulness of AR-15s as back-door gun-grabbing…
BATFE is hanging their hat on two things: the M885 can penetrate typical police-type protective vests if fired from a handgun and there are semi-automatic handguns available which can chamber it. Technically they are saying that makes it an illegal armor piercing round. Most rifle rounds, even when fired from a handgun, will also penetrate armor but they are not chambered in semi-auto handguns, rather they are chambered in single-shots like TC Contenders. Some revolver cartridges will also penetrate armor (.460/.500 S&W, in an extreme example .45-70)but again, the key is the conjunction of semi-auto and potential armor piercing.
Note there are no allegations that M885 has actually been USED for this – BATFE is in essence being used by the administration to ban an entire class of ammo “just ‘cuz”. And, yes, you can expect that AK pistols and steel-tipped 7.62 x 39 ammo will be next on the list. The only reason you haven’t seen 5.7mm FN already (MAJ Hassan’s weapon of choice) is because the AP version of 5.7 is already illegal for civilian use and for sale to law enforcement only. Sorry for the long post.
I bet that XM193, fired from a AR pistol will still penetrate soft armor. What do they plan to do about the Draco (AK style pistol) that fires all that cheap steel core 7.62×39 surplus ammo?
This is as others have said; a start. Once they have their foot in the ban door, they can just add to it as they wish.
don’t give the dildoes ideas, they will get around to it soon enough!
True. Sorry I blew up 🙂
The police department that I used to work for tested out an FNH P-90 – shooting the 5.7 rounds. We set up a couple of old Level IIIA vests just to see what it could do. The practice rounds (teflon tip) penetrated through the front AND back inserts. The P-90 is a rifle, but only has an 18″ barrel in the full auto version (I think – it might be 20″ – google would be my friend if I wanted to take the time). The FNH rep told us that multiple shots from the five-seven (handgun) using the same ammo would also penetrate, but we never tested that.
This overt effort at gun control should be alarimg even the less paranoid among us.
I find it odd, and a bit scary, that there is any discussion about the details????
Zero, I think it’s because most of us are a bit older, and NOT paranoid, that we are discussing details. I think most of us are having a hard time wrapping our minds around the idea that OTHER AMERICANS, people we think are just like ourselves, are doing everything they can to destroy the country we love. Sometimes I find myself trying to remember when and how I woke up in a country that seems to be a fun-house mirrored horror of the one I was raised in. It’s that sense of reality-warp that causes us to try and make some sense out of what is happening.
I didn’t phrase that very well, but I think you know what I mean. What the hell has happened to our country?
Had you said “a bit younger” I might have agreed easily. I still believe that the over reach here is the critical issue and NOT the details.
Kinda like fretting over each rain drop when the flood is heading in your direction.
Well put, Zero.
Apparently these folks have never looked at a Thompson Contender handgun in lots of rifle calibers.
Stuff like this is precisely why I will never own an AR. They are likely to outright ban them in a few years. The gun control zealots view them as big scary instruments of death. A 20 gauge 870 and a Marlin .30-30 are viewed as a hunting rifles.
Outright ban?
Molon Labe, fuckers.
As S.E.A. said, Molon Labe.
While I respect your decision as yours to make, I disagree with your line of reasoning.
In my opinion, ALL of us should own an AR, and should want to. Why? Because they are likely to continue TRYING to outlaw them, and they absolutely SHOULD NOT be allowed to.
The more responsible gun owners that take your action, the easier it will be for the powers that be to get their way.
They can’t ban the platform, so they are trying to outflank by banning the food for the platform. Incrementally, of course, and this is the first step. When they are done with that, they will go after lead, which will make the replacement rounds much more expensive and less available, due to supply and demand, so there won’t be many that will be able to afford it, thereby restricting it without banning the platform.
Look at .22LR. How available are HP hyper velocity (CCI Stingers, etc.) rounds in that? When you do find them; how expensive are they? Just your normal velocity round nose .22LR is selling for approx. 8-10 cents a round, when you can find it.
This President is using his Executive Orders to go around Congress on anything and everything he wants and the pussies in the republican party just look at their shoes and shrug their shoulders. He outright dared them to try and stop him in a town hall meeting on Wednesday. Everything from amnesty and the EPA to bullet bans and “net neutrality” is getting pencil whipped from his desk and no one is doing anything about it and he knows they won’t.
Had this happened 150 years ago, the citizens would have reacted quite differently than today I believe.
Fast and Furious, anyone?
So are .223 rounds still legal? …
Yes.
It’s my understanding that this ban only applies to surplus M855 ammo.
But the price of ALL of it is gonna rocket because of this idiotic move.
That’s because they are steel tipped and will punch thru any fabric body armour .. like the stuff cops wear.
My issue is the outlawing of a rifle round using a law made to restrict AP pistol rounds.
That being said .. my local range would allow steel tipped on the line.
make that
Would not allow …
A regular FMJ .223 will, also, penetrate soft body armor (the stuff cops wear), as will all rifle rounds of pretty much any caliber. They aren’t interested in single shot pistols of rifle caliber; just semi-auto versions.
If they can arbitrarily ban this ammo then all rifle ammo can be banned.
Obama strikes again.
22 in any size is the most sought after ammo. It is used in rifles, revolvers. Semi autos etc. Is it next?
I love telling gun grabbers this. The dumb-founded look I get is priceless!
There are roughly 250 million guns in the US. Let’s say these are owned by just 50 million Americans. Let’s say you ban firearm ownership outright, and confiscate every weapon a la UK and Australia. If 1% of those 50 million people shoot 1 person trying to confiscate their firearms, you’ll have a casualty rate comparable to both sides of the Civil War.
Now let’s say there’s 100 million gun owners in the US. What’s 1% of that? What’s 5% of that? Still want them?
I hate 5.56 rounds. This all is probably to get people to spend money I imagine, but I just want to say one more time, I hate 5.56 rounds.
Me too, after all, 5 rounds are usefull, but what can one do with .56 of a round?
😉
Hahaha I am so stealing that for future use
B. Hussein 0bama & Company, THE GREATEST Guns & Ammo sales team in human history!!
My range will not allow them on the line.
For indoor ranges, you are correct. Most outdoor ranges don’t care.
A more recent article found here: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/us/move-to-ban-a-bullet-adds-to-its-appeal.html?_r=1 describes it as “armot piercing” M-855. I am sorry but the armor piercing version of this ammo is black-tipped not green.
That’s the part of this that shows how ignorant the sheep (aka low information voter) are. The BATFE and Obumbles administration know exactly what is what and are hoping that their lame-ass excuse will fly over the sheep’s head. Anyone that knows firearms knows their excuse is bullshit, but it wasn’t meant for us.
Can someone explain this on terms of home defense. I don’t have an ar15 I have something else. But if I did acquire one because I suck at firing handguns and I’m more familiar with the ar15 are their still options?
If you’re familiar with the AR platform, you should know what ammunition is available for it.
On the assumption that what you mean is you are familiar with the AR from military service and don’t know the civilian terms – any .223 or 5.56×45 caliber ammunition should be usable in an AR.
That’s not neessarily true. if your AR is stamped for .223, you cannot use 5.56mm ammunition in it. If your AR is stamped 5.56/.223, you can use either.
Good hypothetical point – but when was the last time you saw an AR chambered exclusively in .223? I have a .223 bolt – and it’s damn near a collector’s piece. Yes, you are right – if it says it is only chambered in .223, do not use 5.56.
As Old Trooper said, not always.
This is from an article I read a while back and kept for reference.
“.223 Remington vs. 5.56×45–Chambering and Throat Considerations
Is the .223 Remington the same as the 5.56×45? The answer is yes and no. There ARE differences between the .223 Remington as shot in civilian rifles and the 5.56×45 in military use. While the external cartridge dimensions are essentially the same, the .223 Remington is built to SAAMI specs, rated to 50,000 CUP max pressure, and normally has a shorter throat. The 5.56×45 is built to NATO specs, rated to 60,000 CUP max pressure, and has a longer throat, optimized to shoot long bullets. That said, there are various .223 Remington match chambers, including the Wylde chamber, that feature longer throats. Military 5.56×45 brass often, but not always, has thicker internal construction, and slightly less capacity than commercial .223 Rem brass.
Should you be worried about shooting 5.56×45 milspec ammo in a .223 Remington? The answer really depends on your chamber. 5.56 x45 ammo is intended for chambers with longer throats. If you shoot hot 5.56×45 ammo in short-throated SAAMI-spec chambers you can encounter pressure issues. The new long-throated ‘Wylde’ chamber allows safe use of military ammo. Wylde chambers are quite common in Rock River guns. Other manufacturers, such as Fulton Armory, offer modified “match chambers” with extended throats that allow safe use of 5.56×45 ammo in .223 Remington rifles. For a complete discussion of the .223 Rem vs. 5.56×45 question, read this Tech Notice from Winchester, and this GunZone Commentary by Dean Speir. Without belaboring the point, we’ll repeat the official SAAMI position: “Chambers for military rifles have a different throat configuration than chambers for sporting firearms which, together with the full metal jacket of the military projectile, may account for the higher pressures which result when military ammunition is fired in a sporting chamber. SAAMI recommends that a firearm be fired only with the cartridge for which it is specifically chambered by the manufacturer.”
You can always use 5.56 to train and .300BO or 6.8SPC for home defense(or hunting) too. 😉
I predict XM855 becomes XM1234etc. and gun grabbing libtards are easily defeated once again.
Meanwhile, the West Va Senate voted nearly unanimously yesterday to end handgun permits. In other words, no permit would be required in order to carry. None.