The Navy Defines Hazing For Us?
I have mixed feeling about this story. In fact, I was hesitant to post about it.
Navy: 8 tossed from Bonhomme Richard for hazing
SAN DIEGO — The Navy discharged eight sailors after a hazing incident aboard a San Diego-based amphibious assault ship that was captured on video and included the choking of a fellow sailor, a Navy spokesman said Saturday.
The eight received general discharges following allegations they assaulted and choked the sailor aboard Bonhomme Richard as part of a rite to initiate the sailor into a new department, said Lt. Cmdr. David McKinney.
McKinney said the assault, which took place Jan. 17 in the ship’s berthing area, was videotaped, and the victim treated for injuries.
Boys will be boys, and the Navy is just over-reacting in this modern PC climate would seem a valid appraisal at first glance. Indeed Doc Bailey makes this point over at his place.
However, there is one line in the Navy Times story that seems to belie that take?
The injuries were not serious, but the sailor sought treatment and reported the incident to his superiors, leading to the discharges, McKinney said.
Once this “harmless horseplay” rises to that level the NAVY has to do something! Imagine if his superiors had said something like “Don’t be such a crybaby!” and dropped it? Do we really need the kind of headlines that would likely engender?
In truth I still ain’t sure what “hazing” is nowadays, but the words “assault”, cover-up, and “climate of brutality” wouldn’t look too good in the press. That is quite clear.
Category: Geezer Alert!, Navy
Well Zero, I’d say the same thing. I sought treatment for a strained shoulder, and so did some of my guys. Yes it can progress to the point that it goes too far, but I see little more than a punitive letter of reprimand, not a discharge.
Hazing is ill defined, and we’re jumping on this band wagon way too F**king much.
I have to agree with Doc & Zero. The long timed rite of passage of “tacking on a crow” (for the rest of you, that would be making NCO) was questionable during my first ten years in the Navy. While I dealt with it, I’ve heard of incidents where people actually had gotten their arms broken during this initiation, I’ve never seen it. I HAVE experienced some pretty painful tacking ons, though. Sometimes people just take things a little TOO far. That same old 10% crowd screws it up for everybody else. Hazing is something that is a time honored tradition. It develops a little character & more importantly, makes people accepted into the “team”. I, for one, do NOT think it should be gotten rid of and should be looked at on a case by case basis.
This whole thing is nuts. I served as a BT in a machinery room on a carrier. It was hot, miserable and often times boring. We beat the hell out of each other just for kicks or to pass the time. That is hardly “hazing” but rather more like coping.
Hazing is being “greased” or “blued” because you consistantly do something wrong or piss people off etc. Even then I never saw anyone report that it happened to their superiors. Of course the engineering department liked to handle things in our own way. No sense bothering the CO with something that can be straitened out at the enlisted level.
The worst and best bruise I ever got was when I made BT3 and every Pettry Officer (seemed like evey one)in the engineering department “tacked” it on. I could hardly move my arm for a few days without major pain. I guess that tradition would be considered hazing now. That’s too bad because it it had a special effect on a person.
Pretty soon the entire military will be more or less traditionless because some small group of people somewhere got their feelings hurt. Which is sad because being in the AF we already have the least tradition of all the branches.
I’ve seen a CMSgt retirement ceremony that was pretty cool, but it still didn’t even come close to my dad’s CPO retirement ceremony. When it came to tradition I always thought Navy did it right.
But, just like with everything, some folks just take things too far.
I should note that I realize this is not some formal ceremony in question here- but a bunch of guys “welcoming” the new guy.
FNGs have always been fair game to be f’ed with.
@3: “Of course the engineering department liked to handle things in our own way. No sense bothering the CO with something that can be straitened out at the enlisted level.” -exactly right. I’ll wager that shaft alleys, engine rooms, and EDG spaces have settled more issues than the skipper’s desk has for those of us below the deckplates. It works just as well, and no one gets a blemish on their record from it.
SECNAVINST 1610.2A: “Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby a military member or members, regardless of service or rank, without proper authority causes another military member or members, regardless of service or rank, to suffer or be exposed to any activity which is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.”
The Department of the Navy has established a zero tolerance policy for this type of behavior. That policy has been in place for many years now and I’ve no doubt these sailors acted with full knowledge that their actions were illegal. That being said, I think a discharge is a bit extreme, although the discharges were general (not punitive) discharges. Their second, aggravating circumstance? Videotaping it, thus ensuring there would be evidence against them.
TopGoz #7: Thanks for that official definition, but any activity which is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful STILL leaves questions to me? Mostly related to 40 year old memories to be sure. Some stuff we took in stride or settled among ourselves would fit easily into those terms even then?
And I agree that discharge seems a harsh punishment, but will maintain that the Navy had little choice in this instance.
Oh yeah, I didn’t say anywhere that I liked it…
Isn’t that definition still a bit ambiguous? I mean what may be demeaning or humiliating to some isn’t so bad for the next guy, and furthermore there was a lot of humiliation in Basic, how does that all factor in? Isn’t that like the biggest hazing of them all?
Oh and why video tape anything anymore? Hope the prospected 10 minutes of fame was worth it.
Oh wait, sorry to triple post, but I see a problem with my own post.. I missed the “without proper authority” part.
Now, how do I go about getting authority to demean or humiliate somebody?
There is a time and a place for this Shit. We did it at Basic to a guy who couldn’t hack it, and seemed bound and determined to take the whole platoon down with his happy ass. That was 2003, and he just didn’t want to be in the Army anymore, so he tried getting us constantly smoked, then tried to turn racial groups against eachother. Anyway, I still believe that of there is enough of a brotherhood in a unit, its ok to do certain things, just not in public spaces such as berthing, and definitely not on tape (geniuses!). I requested that my CAB (earned legitimately in Afghanistan in 2005) be bloodpinned and it was, out of the spotlight, by my boss. It builds character!
Sounds to me like crossing the line or bluenose ceremonies would be cause to get shitcanned these days.
Oh but those are command sponsored. Nevermind, carry on.
I’ve never been a fan of giving or receiving good ol’ fashioned fun, but back in the day I bore witness to a good bit. Perhaps the most memorable was hearing a commotion outside my armsroom and looking out to find the support platoon PL taped to his computer chair and covered in shaving cream. His Joes gave him a birthday present to remember.
I had a friend go overboard when I was pinned SPC in Iraq. When he noticed that no one else gave me a thump he felt bad, but I didn’t really care, and was sure as hell not going to complain. My CIB wasn’t pinned, so when I earned my EIB a year later they gently pinned it to my pocket flap. It always went unspoken for me; I don’t play the game.
That said it does build camaraderie in many units. The aforementioned PL had a bond with his Soldiers that many officers don’t have (imagine trying to tape up the average Lieutenant). The new Joe in the barracks who gets an impromptu shower may not like it at first, but when he becomes part of the team and gets to initiate a new Private a few weeks later, he “gets it”. There can be a fine line between fun and “hazing”, but sometimes the best Soldiers are the ones who crossed the line quite a bit. I know a former Best Warrior NCO of the Year who used to enjoy pounding Soldiers’ shins with his musket (yes, an actual Brown Bess musket we carried for CinC Guard ceremonies) as a buck SGT. I’d never have guessed that a couple of years later he was a role model for other NCOs and Soldiers.
Some where, I’ve got some 8mm footage of me getting “welcomed” into the ranks of the Sons of Neptune at my Shellback ceremony. Given today’s climate, my skipper would have been facing a firing squad for that.
When I was a Marine, hazing had some pretty tight boundaries. Anything that was considered to be lethal force (or anything close to it) was definitely off-limits, and if the Marine applying it got his ass kicked, them was the breaks.
If you want to add sophomoric behavior (read “Thank you sir may I have another”) go join a fucking fraternity and engage all you want. As for a PROFESSIONAL Military, this kind of shit takes the word “profession” out of military equation. Hiding behind “boys will be boys” doesn’t cut it. Yes, back in my day the Army was all about fighting, drinking, and fucking. It was a blast. However there is a time for everything. I had my “buddy” come down to witness a Pathfinder graduation. The Marines were blood pinning. I was embarrassed as he said… What the fuck is that all about? He was disgusted, as he should be (OCS Hall of Fame, Master Aviator, Master Paratrooper, 1st Officer ranger Class 5-53, Korea, Vietnam etc.) Anyway, his comments resonated with me and I never forgot it.
When my soldiers got promoted/graduated (from a “real school”) they had to buy a case of beer. This was gladly done by the soldier… and of course the case of beer turned into many more bought by others. It always turned into a promotion/graduation party.
This hazing (and blood wings) shit needs to go back to the campus of FAMU!
When I got my fives at my unit, I was blood pinned. Sure, I was only a supply guy in an Infantry unit, but it was tradition. Top and my Platoon Daddy both gave me three hits on each side. It hurt like hell, but I sucked it up and drove on.
Just before I transferred to another unit, they did the same tradition with a soldier. He pissed and moaned and told his mommy. Ended up that State JAG did an investigation and focused on the CDR. Well, the CO had “no knowledge” of such things.
Did I mention that he smacks the troopies in the forehead once with the pin on their patrol cap?
It didn’t go anywhere, but that is the extent of the hazing I received. One kid gets all butt-hurt and now the unit must stop a tradition that dated back to Korea (I think).
@6 I guess this means you can’t send anyone to the BR Shop for a BT punch anymore! LOL I never fell for the old “steam blanket” or any of the other crap they used to try to send me after but one guy was really convincing when it came to the BT Punch and I fell for it. Hurt like hell at the time but its really funny now.