Marine Science Fiction Writer Blacklisted for Comments On Islamic Center
Instapundit and Ace of Spades have already talked about this a little bit, but they’re coming at it from the outside. This has been on my radar for a while, but it’s finally gotten to the point where I think it’s absolutely awful and have to say something.
In Defense of Elizabeth Moon
Elizabeth Moon is a pretty extraordinary woman. She made the decision to join the Marine Corps as an officer during the Vietnam War, at a time many men were unwilling to. She is the child of a single parent, and an utterly self-made woman with multiple college degrees. She is also the mother of an autistic child and has done some pretty impressive advocating for disabled children. She writes some great Military Science Fiction books, with strong female characters-because she knows from experience that women can be a lot of pretty amazing things. Moon exemplifies in many ways what I think of as feminism-that any woman can and should have the ability to be whatever she wants to be, from serving her country to being a mother-tigress.
To this end, she was chosen as a Guest of Honor at Wiscon, a feminist science fiction convention. This was an excellent choice-she started writing early on in a field where there were few women writers, and she’s pretty consistently been a supportive voice for them, while declaring that to be a feminist means you believe women are strong.
All was well…until, on her own personal blog, she made a 9/11 post about the proposed Islamic Center in NYC, and overall, about immigrant assimilation in America.
Groups that self-isolate, that determinedly distinguish themselves by location, by language, by dress, will not be accepted as readily as those that plunge into the mainstream. This is not just an American problem–this is human nature, the tribalism that underlies all societies and must be constantly curtailed if larger groups are to co-exist. It is natural to want to be around those who talk like you, eat the familiar foods, wear the familiar clothes, have the familiar cultural references. But in a multicultural society like ours–and it has been multi-cultural from its inception–citizens need to go beyond nature. That includes those who by their history find it least comfortable.
I don’t agree with her on the Islamic center, but on this I have to agree. This applies to everyone. Everyone needs to break out of their comfort zones and enclaves. It’s kind of a key fixture in a lot of science fiction, too-that if we don’t all stop clutching so determinedly to our differences, we’ll never make it to the stars. We don’t all have to be the same, but we do need to stop defining ourselves only by our tribes.
What appears to have spelled her doom, however, was the following:
I can easily imagine how Muslims would react to my excusing the Crusades on the basis of Islamic aggression from 600 to 1000 C.E….(for instance, excusing the building of a church on the site of a mosque in Cordoba after the Reconquista by reminding them of the mosque built on the site of an important early Christian church in Antioch.) So I don’t give that lecture to the innocent Muslims I come in contact with. I would appreciate the same courtesy in return (and don’t get it.) The same with other points of Islam that I find appalling (especially as a free woman) and totally against those basic principles of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution…I feel that I personally (and many others) lean over backwards to put up with these things, to let Muslims believe stuff that unfits them for citizenship, on the grounds of their personal freedom.
Immediately an outcry rose up among some. Elizabeth Moon didn’t just disagree, she was racist. (Never mind the fact that Islam is a religion, not a race). The mere fact that she happened to find portions of Islamic practice objectionable, as a feminist, was used as a reason to get the tar and feathers ready. And hundreds of posts later from the slavering hordes, the nonprofit responsible for WisCon, SF3, overrode the committee, broke their contract with her, and disinvited her as Guest of Honor. Now this isn’t just some trivial thing-appearing as a Guest of Honor is a contract between the author and the convention. The author commits to coming, clearing their schedule and turning down other events they could be doing that weekend, and in return, the convention sometimes pays them, and generally pays for their plane tickets, hotel rooms, etc. So in essence, they’ve screwed her over, because they thought it was easier to let a respected military science fiction writer hang than to get accused of racism. There’s also been talk from other sides of instituting boycotts against her, shunning her, having people stalk her around the convention if she shows up just to tell her how much they hate her, and other things.
Now here’s the thing. I disagree with portions of what Moon wrote, and even think that some is in poor taste and she chose some of her words poorly. I think it’s got a lot of assumptions, and not all of them are correct or well-researched. I think that she didn’t convey what she actually wanted to say very well. But what I also think is absolutely awful is that she has been completely singled out, on the basis of personal political beliefs, because “there are Muslims who will be at the convention”. I’ve been reading a lot of beliefs being thrown around here in the criticism, both in those criticizing Moon and other GoHs. And there are other feminists who will be in lead roles at WisCon who have strong political and personal beliefs against groups who will be represented at WisCon, too. There will be capitalists at WisCon, and Republicans, and Christians, and Orthodox Jews who believe in Israel, Libertarians and members of the Tea Party. And these are groups it’s apparently completely okay to demonize. You don’t see people rising up and stopping those other people for saying all of these objectionable things because those individuals might be offended. Instead you find people saying that the mere presence of Elizabeth Moon would make this “not a safe space” for Muslims to exist at the convention.
This is absolute bullshit.
I personally find portions of a lot of religions objectionable, as a feminist, and I know for a fact that many other feminists do too. There’s a lot of inequality written into the past, that many religions have been slow to catch up on. In fact, there’s been an awful lot of feminist statements about organized religion that amazingly, got them no witchhunts. Why is it okay to malign one conservative religion, but not another one? And why is what she said so astonishingly worse than other people talking about different religions? Yes, she said that some of these beliefs made people bad citizens. I personally think Fred Phelps is a bad citizen because of his insane religious beliefs, as well as the polygamist sects still existing in the hills of Utah. Moon and I don’t agree on a lot of things, but I can completely understand why someone who stands for the rights of women might have problems with religions that have historically repressed them. I don’t support people actively discriminating against individuals, but I think that if we’re going to be okay with calling out religions that have contributed to repression, you can’t give Islam a free pass just because Muslims in America are a minority.
Wiscon claims to be “the world’s leading feminist science fiction convention. WisCon encourages discussion and debate of ideas relating to feminism, gender, race and class.”
Except, you know, if you don’t toe exactly the right line.
There are places open for comment at the Wiscon blog and at the SF3 blog. I think it would be great to support this woman, who’s been taking the brunt of an internet flamewar with very little defense. Please, if you go over and comment, remember your audience, and be polite. It’s easy to dismiss a lot of rabid rhetoric, much easier than it is to dismiss thoughtful logic.
Warning: I may be editing this post slightly to tighten it up and add more links. I’d have taken more time, but I didn’t want Jonn to make any more commentary about my slow-as-hell posting.
Jonn added: I wanted to write about this when I saw it at Ace in the context of the Juan Williams discussion, but luckily, Army Sergeant, a young woman who reads science fiction probably has a better perspective than an old man who could care less about science fiction.
It appears that Laughing Wolf at Blackfive is pretty pissed, too.
Category: Politics
I find myself agreeing 100%.
Which is why I will see what our company insurance does to cover mental health counseling.
Great post AS.
Bravo AS, good article. And Bravo Mrs. Moon for stating your opinions in public.
While I am a devout follower of all things David Drake, it would seem I have new mil/sifi author to check out…….
Another Juan caught up in the wave.
Isn’t their ability to speak their minds one of the big reasons why we bolted on the uniform?
How do we put a stop to this kind of persecution? How do we rise up and tell those tyrants “Enough!”
I will just be damned if I will allow groups like NPR and these PC slime balls to tell me how, what, when and under what circumstances to think or believe.
Thjanks for this post. It’s an eye-opener… but we’ve got to come up with ways to put an end to this before it gets out of hand.
ref: The Crusades.
The damned X-ians started it!
“What we have here is failure to communicate”.
There’s at least one historical reference of no small note. I doubt AS is aware of it though?
Think Pyrrhic victory?
“Groups that self-isolate, that determinedly distinguish themselves by location, by language, by dress, will not be accepted as readily as those that plunge into the mainstream.”
Sounds like the military….
You do hit the nail on the head about criticism of christianity. The terrorists do win if we can’t criticize anti-woman religions.
I’ve read several of her books and have them saved on my Palm. I had no idea of her background but that explains the realism of her work. For a “feminist” organization to dis-invite her because she was critical of a religion that beats up and subjugates women, treating them as slaves and subservient to men is just awful. What trash,
The common thread in these situations — Juan Williams getting fired, Elizabeth Moon dumped from WisCon, newspaper dumping a “Where’s Mohammad?” cartoon before anyone even complained, etc — is modern liberalism/progressivism. Thankfully, it seems that Army Sergeant’s feminism trumps her liberalism. But that’s not how it works in most cases. Most notably with WisCon.
If this group was truly about feminism, they would be just as critical of Islam as Elizabeth Moon. But, by their despicable behavior towards Miss Moon, they have shown that their liberalism trumps their feminism and, as such, they have no principles.
What I really can’t understand is why liberals flock to the defense of Islam, while at the same time holding a searing hatred of Christianity (as well as Judaism). The only common theme I see is that Islam is anti-Western culture, while Christianity is arguably the foundation of much of Western culture. So, basically, liberals flock to Islam as a way to reject Western culture. They hate this culture so much that they not only work to destroy the foundation of it — Christianity — but they also work to help the religious political movement which seeks to destroy it — Islam.
This attitude towards one of the best cultures in the history of the world simply baffles me. The lack of understanding of how lucky and blessed we are to live in such a great society culture and time of history… again, it baffles me.
Apparently, though, this is the result of the indoctrination going on in our schools and universities, teaching kids and young adults to hate America, Christianity, Judaism and our culture and to praise and defend a religion which seeks to destroy it.
I simply shake my head at reading stuff like this. I really don’t understand this mentality of hating everything of Western culture and defending everything about a religious political movement which seeks to destroy that culture. Just depressing.
Excellent post, AS. You write very well.
I find the actions of WisCon deplorable, and breath-taking in their naivete. I used to attend a LOT of cons, and found wonderful people who would set aside such differences because of a common love of SciFi. I am deeply saddened to see how things have changed.
If anyone else had written this piece, I would be singing its praises from the rooftops.
AS writes it, and I have the overwhelming urge to think its all lies and bs, and that Moon is the one who screwed up. Sorry, I just cant trust the jokes that populate IVAW, they lack integrity to their core…
Well said AS. As for what Ms. Moon said, that’s pretty tame and certainly non-inflammatory. It’s awful hard to have a debate when one side isn’t allowed to speak…
It’s interesting that both Moon and Juan were attacked by those they thought were so open minded. There are extremists on the right, but sure seems to be alot more extremists on the left controlling things today.
Awesome post. I can so identify.
“There’s also been talk from other sides of instituting boycotts against her”
anyone who supports her being disinvited probably has never or would never read her anyway, I mean MILITARY SciFi?
They would probably faint I mean if the reports are true that
“‘fans of color’ and ‘non-Christian fans’ will feel “unsafe” attending the con if Ms. Moon is there”
that almost made me cough my coke up through my nose. I read the 9/11 post there is nothing threatening in it
Like wishing for no violence or burning of Korans??
Makes me want to point out to them she was a MARINE who writes Military SciFi she might very well have fans who can be dropped behind enemy lines, take out a target’s head at 1000 yards and bite the head off a snake for a snack,
Now THEY may be ticked off and yes it might wise to feel unsafe about their reactions, after all they make the world unsafe for some of the most dangerous people in it. 😉
“…a young woman who reads science fiction probably has a better perspective than an old man who could care less about science fiction.” ========== I don’t see this as having anything to do with science fiction. It has to do with modern liberalism and its alliance with Islam. This WisCon group has exposed themselves as a group that identifies itself as a modern liberal group, rather than a feminist or science fiction group. This issue is much bigger than simply some small insignificant science fiction/feminist group that practically no one has ever heard of. This is just another in a long line of examples of groups being taken over by modern liberals and then used to shun anyone who dares stand up against Islam. Modern Liberals have already taken over public schools, public broadcasting, universities, mass media, print media, Hollywood, TV, movies and the military. All those institutions are now led by modern liberals and have bowed down to Islam. What this shows is that this has spread to even places like science fiction groups and so-called feminist groups. This is only now a big deal and surprising to those who haven’t been paying attention to the spread of this totalitarian mindset in every other area. Those who have bothered to follow what has been happening to Mark Steyn in Canada and Geert Wilders overseas has known about this for years. There was also the Mohammad Cartoons and the South Park Mohammad episode. And now this week Juan Williams and Elizabeth Moon have been added the list of those who have been taken down by modern liberalism’s alliance with Islam. In the big picture, this has nothing to do with Elizabeth Moon. Big deal, so she got dis-invited from some stupid nerd convention by ugly faux feminists. The big deal is the trend we are seeing in modern liberalism’s alliance with Islam to stifle speech. Here it just costs Elizabeth Moon a little inconvenience. When it is applied to the military, though, it ends up costing people their lives, as at Fort Hood. When it is applied to media, it… Read more »
What I argue for, among many other things, is internal consistency. If you’re going to argue against sexism, then argue against sexism. If you’re going to argue against male-dominated religions, then do it. I don’t support particular demonization of Islam, but at the same time, I don’t support special protected status for it. I know this makes me neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring, and I’m just going to get hated from both sides, but it had to be said.
We need to stop clinging to our “sides” whenever a problem or issue or controversy comes up, and start looking at the actual facts of the case. Be willing to cross the aisle. Stop requiring conformity to these narrow political lineups. And fight those who require it when they rear their ugly heads.
“It’s awful hard to have a debate when one side isn’t allowed to speak…“. Exactly, OT. That’s the whole idea behind liberalism. You can only “debate” if you are totally on board with them, and toe the party line. And yet, the conservatives are the ones who are closed-minded and intolerant.
AS, does this, in your opinion, signal an attempt to bring the failed EU ideal of Multiculturalism (An ideal that the German Chancellor last week admitted has failed) to the US?
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Lucky,
Education, especially at the High School and College level has been working that end for decades now, and what you see around you is the result of those efforts.
The easiest way to effect the change you want is patience and indoctrination of the youth. You will never win over the adults, so you don’t even try. You go for the children. You take over the education system, and slowly implement the changes you want through them. A bit at a time. The adults never see it coming until it’s too late.
Good post, AS. This is just another example of not the author’s political viewpoint, but rather the political viewpoint of Wiscon’s leadership. It seems to me that they are the ones making this a political football, based on their perceptions and assumptions.
I am reminded if an open letter to the British people written be the former chief of the London police back in 2006. it was a scathing indictment of PC run amuck. I took the chance at the time to copy the letter to my computer back then. Still have it. It makes for chilling reading. I’ll repost this to my site (battleposition17.blogspot.com)
Very good, AS! Keep up the great work too! 🙂
AW1 Tim,
I was raised in a Infantry Marine household, talk about indoctrination, I knew how to perform a proper pushup by age 3! I am paid by the Army to influence Hearts and Minds overseas, and to come home and see that this is what the United States has turned into, send me back overseas where PC doesn’t exist at the JSS’ and Patrol Bases!
The big mistake is calling Islam a religion in the first place. It’s a 1700yr cult trying to conquer the world through fear and violance. Applaud Ms. Moon for her stance, but in my opinion she wasn’t tough enough on the ragheads.
I agree with every syllable of every word written in Elizabeth Moon’s comment. I attended all GZM protests.
While attending the last rally, I was asked by an obvious proponent of the Mosque “tell me, how far is far enough” ? My answer was, “if it’s INsight it’s Insensitive period”
[…] Marine Science Fiction Writer Blacklisted for Comments On Islamic Center […]
Here is an example of an attempt to put into practice and law that we see now in Europe and demonstrated by the prosecution of Geert Wilders. It is intended to suppress opinion and free speech that is not approved. And it is a focused attempt to silence speech through intimidation, loss of income and eventually jail or worse.
It should not be supported, it should be resisted and not allowed to happen here.
I ACTUALLY AGREE with this post. Just because we have something in common does not mean that I will shed any tears if you die in Iraq or Afghanistan. Further more if you followed orders to invade Iran and I had a gun and you were in the sights I would not hesitate to pull the trigger myself. After all even a Nazi can do what his country (tribe) asks of him for the benefit of the tribe (country). Does that make sense? Do I mean that I could pull the trigger myself because I am a NAZI and after all even a NAZI could do it? I have to ask these questions becasue there is no telling that how Americans understand what they read. After all Americans consider the leadership of Islamic Republic of Iran to be a bunch of wild eyed fantics. This view only makes sense. It was the Iranian leadership who invaded the US embassy in 1979 not a bunch of college students. The US Embassy personnel were a bunch of innocent school children playing by Queensbury rules there was absolutely no evidence uncovered in the embassy that 4 top officials in the new post Sha regime were on the CIA payroll. Then Iran attacked Iraq with North Korean help in 1980 didn’t it? How could Americans forget this diabolical war of Agression or the excote missle that an Iranian F-14 fired in to our destroyer what was it called again? ah ja the Cole the USS Juan Cole I think it was. Then through out the 1990s the Iranians actually had the gall to cozy up to the Russians and Chinese. Damn that was really a radical move. Especially considering how we made so many ovetures to them. Finally we get to what most of the world considers the present but what to Amis is ancient history, the 2000s. Why the Iranians actually had the nerve to meddel in Iraq and Afghanistan. They were clearly driven by a desire to recreate a vast empire. There is no way that it could be seen in any… Read more »
Curt: You’d better hope you can shoot better than you can spell.
“Modern liberalism’s alliance with Islam” can also be described as dhimmitude. It is a denial of equality of rights and dignity, remains part of the Sharia, and, part of the legal superstructure that global jihadists are laboring to restore everywhere in the Islamic world, and wish ultimately to impose on the entire human race.
Spearheaded by dhimmi academics and self-serving advocacy groups, that same attitude of chastened subservience has entered into Western academic study of Islam, and from there into journalism, school textbooks, and the popular discourse.
To continue to gloss over the destruction wrought by jihad ideology and its attendant evil of dhimmitude is today to play into the hands of jihadists, who have repeatedly vowed to dhimmify the West and destroy any recalcitrant elements. They have a potent and destructive ally, a genuine fifth column, in the dhimmi academics and dhimmi journalists they have recruited in the West. They have succeeded in confusing millions in the West into mistaking honesty and truthfulness for bigotry, and self-defense for oppression. (JihadWatch)
Their ultimate goal is obliteration of western culture and the islamification of the world through any means. Radical Muslims bring up their children in this culture of death, it is ingrained from infancy and that they have no other choice. As disturbing and disgusting as all that is, the fact that our leaders and academic elite are blinded to their true purpose of total annihilation of our civilization is the real horror. /archives/2456
dutch508 (comment #4): The first three Crusades (the fourth was another matter) constituted a wholly defensive response on the part of Christendom to nearly five centuries of theretofore successful violent Islamic imperialism. By the time of the first Crusade, A.D. 1097, Muslim jihadis had overrun and subjugated nearly half the Byzantine Empire, all of formerly Christian Spain, all the former Persian empire, all of Mesopotamia, and major portions of India. The Crusades, for nearly 200 years restored parts of Palestine and Syria to Christian control and stopped the imperialist advance of Islamic jihad into the remainder of Byzantium and, thence, southern and central Europe.
The Crusades represented an intelligent defensive (though ultimately unsuccessful) response to violent Islamic conquest. The need for an intelligent effective response to jihad is not over.
Lucky:
My vision of America is best viewed as the stewpot analogy. Everybody gets thrown in and makes an amazing whole. It’s not exactly melted down-they keep the best of themselves-but they’re still part of the dish. I’m not sure if that fits what you think of as multiculturalism. My multiculturalism involves tasty food, but no enclaves.
Jonn: My hat is off to you, sir, if you can interpret what Curt is saying. It just all scans as Crazytown to me.
To all:
I don’t think Islam is the only religion capable of making violent fundamentalists. But I do think that the religion shouldn’t be completely exempt from criticism, simply because it’s a minority religion in the US. And even if Elizabeth Moon had said something I completely, completely, utterly disagreed with in every particular, it would still be wrong for them to disgrace and interfere with the livelihood of this great Marine, science fiction writer, and feminist. Even though she’s a Texan and all. 😉
Curt
?????
“I don’t think Islam is the only religion capable of making violent fundamentalists.”
I disagree. With the reformation of all the other major religions, there is no threat of any other religion having a very large minority of its adherents turning into violent fundamentalists. There is no moral equivalence between the totalitarian cult of Islam and any other religion today. To say otherwise is to give too much credit to Islam and to smear other religions.
Islam, if it is to survive as a so-called religion, needs reform. (1) It needs to drop its political aspect and (2) it needs to eliminate shari’a law altogether. Period. Until it does that, Islam has no business receiving from anyone the respect of being called a religion on par with the other major religions of today (Christianity, Judaism, Mormonism, Buddhism).
Holy shit, Curt, or Kurt, or Kirt, escaped from Mattewan State Hospital, yet again. Must be some orderly forgot to lock the locks on his straight jacket again.
Oh, I forgot, he was released so he can vote democrat.
Oh how subtle your are, how very very subtle.
Yes I found it. You know what I am talking about.
I will say it just for those who who are not here.
When I went out to walk my dog late this morning I found what appears to be a 9mm shell casing laying on the corner of my drive way. Ok maybe it is an 8mm or 10mm no need to quibble.
(I hope that is word that you understand.)
I get the message.
Because the inscriptions were in Cyrillic or some other non Latin Alphabet you want me to understand that you have a world wide reec.
So what is it that you want me to believe? That someone who was walking by last night just happened to drop it and could not find it, or that some one who works for you put it there? Which one do you think sounds more reasonable to me?
I’m not into science fiction, but even I know there is plenty of military science fiction. How about Robert Heinlein for one with Starship Troopers?
Anyway getting very tired of sharia law being gradually imposed on Canada and the U.S. Also the cowardice of so many of our media.
?”Men have died in torture chambers, on the stake, in concentration camps, in front of firing squads, rather than renounce their convictions. The appeaser renounces his under the pressure of a frown on a vacant face.” -Ayn Rand
“Also the cowardice of so many of our media.” I’m not sure if it’s actually cowardice. The Left — including the MF-ing media — just instinctively hates anything that conservatives support and instinctively supports anything that conservatives are against. Islam is the antithesis of Western culture. Therefore, the Left just automatically supports it. It’s just like their subversion of the war effort in Iraq. They were in support of it leading up to the war, John Kerry was actually the first politician to suggest going after Saddam Hussein in DEC 2001, Hillary Clinton was actually the first politician to say “you’re either with us or against us” and the Democrats were the ones who pushed to have the legislation for the AUMFI (Authorization for the Use of Military Force in Iraq), prior to the 2002 mid-terms, because they wanted to get on record voting to support the action in Iraq. And, of course, as everyone knows, all through the Clinton years, the MF-ing media and Democrat Party were talking about all the WMD the Saddam regime had and the fact that intelligence showed Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda and Saddam were working together. But all that didn’t prevent the MF-ing media and Democrats to pull a complete 180 and lie about all of that and turn around and call Republicans and conservative liars when they brought up the same facts. Nope, the MF-ing media and Democrats worked to undermine the entire war effort for political purposes. I bet they are doing the same with regards to Islam. Their support of it is entirely political. They are using the Islam/Muslim issue for political gain. Just like they use Blacks, just like they use the military, just like they use Hispanics. This is all a game to the MF-ing media, liberals and Democrats. It’s not cowardice, because they don’t even realize the true threat from Islam. They don’t see things in terms of right and wrong, good and bad… they see things in terms of ‘how can I use this to my political advantage?’. Which, in my opinion, is even more despicable… Read more »
Curt, some of us in the military know who our domestic enemies are. Should the present cultural cold war in the U.S. go hot, we know who the 5th column supporters are here in the U.S. Don’t think that you’re safe and secure here.
And for damned sure don’t think that merely having a firearm makes you a gunfighter.
Mark, the troll Curt, or Kirt, or Kurt, or Quirt, wouldn’t know the boom end of the firearm from his fourth point of contact. And if it went off, he’d have a huge accident in his pants. He just posts gibberish, then the powers that be finally figure out that he’s loose once again and go find him, and sedate him…..
Mark, as UpNorth says; Curt is off his meds, again, and the folks with the big butterfly nets will be by to collect him shortly
Curt, you’re absolutely correct…ya got us.
“We” dropped off that rare, 8.7mm COMBLOC sub-sonic, suppressed pistol shell casing in your drive way, just as you surmised.
“We” are pretty foolish if we think we can fool a brilliant counter-operator like you…it’s so freakin’ obvious…what were we thinking?!
Now, be sure to pull that tin-foil hat down tight…I guarantee you we’re going to be transmitting signals to screw up your cerebellum…to implant evil thoughts and “sub-cutaneous” messages deep within your id, ego, super-ego and cortex…like, way inside your melon, my man.
And the helicopters…the friggin’ black helos…NWO and all that, Bro…they’ll be hovering, right over your house tonight.
I promise…
Yes I have the promises of the military before
You can trust me.
The Iraq war will pay for itself.
Once we get Saddam the Iraqi resistance will crummble.
Colonel Westhusing committed suicide.
Negroponte’s wife is a CIA agent.
We will balance the budget in 5 years.
Deficits do not matter.
Oh, I am forgetting one. One what?
Damn, I just can not think of anything else.
You know when you think about it over so many years the militrary really has not made very many promosises that it did not keep. It must be becasue the military personnel from tip top to bottom do not have to actually run for reelection.
Curt, are you drunk? Your writing is incoherent.
Mike from Mi & Army Sargent If you guys refer to islam as a religion one more time I’m going to heave! If we can all just agree that we are not speaking of a religion we can move on to how Devil Dog Moon was wrongly drummed out of a group that didn’t even deserve her and how to let her know that! Oh and Dan Kauffman make that 2700 yards !
thanks for the code