Oh, What a Tangled Web….
This was done post-911. Prior to that, there was constant spying on Americans which was investigated in the post-Vietnam era in the 1970s, after the public revelation of wiretapping by the CIA and other agencies on people who were against that conflict but were mostly ordinary citizens. That spying was prompted by all those more and more violent protests against the war, including pipe bombings by anarchists Bernadette Dorn and her “man”, Bill Ayers. Still, it was illegal to do that to any American. Before that, it was the HUAC investigating potential Soviet spies and sympathizers in the 1950s, and one of their “suspects” was Edward R. Murrow.
Daniel Ellsberg precipitated a national political controversy in 1971 when he released the Pentagon Papers, a top-secret Pentagon study of the U.S. government decision-making in relation to the Vietnam War, to The New York Times and other newspapers.
On January 3, 1973, Ellsberg was charged under the Espionage Act of 1917 along with other charges of theft and conspiracy, carrying a total maximum sentence of 115 years. Due to governmental misconduct and illegal evidence-gathering, and the defense by Leonard Boudin and Harvard Law School professor Charles Nesson, Judge William Matthew Byrne Jr. dismissed all charges against Ellsberg on May 11, 1973.
But the NSA decided, following the events of 9/11/01, that it has the right to collect info on all Americans and/or anyone else who lives here, whether they are doing bad things or not, and the objection to it was voiced by Wm. Binney.
He went to several departments to get help putting a stop to it, including the chairs of the House Intelligence Committee, Porter Goss (R-FL) and – guess who? You got it: Nancy Pelosi (D-CA). This was in 2001-2002, after the events of 9/11/01.
From the article: So it was a total violation of the Constitution, not counting the Electronic [Communications] Privacy Act, the [Cyberspace] Electronic Security Act [CESA], all those things, and all the laws covering FCC regulations, covering telecoms. …
So what does Diane say?
So Diane says, “They have gone rogue, you know.” That was her point, that she thought they were going rogue.
So what did she do?
She took it to Porter Goss (R-Fla.) and Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), who were the chair and ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee at the time. They already bought into the program and told her to go talk to Gen. Hayden, which she did. …
Your intention — why did you go to Diane? What did you think maybe could happen with Congress?
Well, the Intelligence Committees were created out of the Church Committee investigations back in the ’70s. Those, as well as the FISA Court, they were created to prevent the intelligence community from spying on U.S. citizens. That was the whole intent from the beginning. It was their job to stop this, and so that’s why I went there. – article.
Totally rogue? Per this recent interview with Pat Robertson of CBN, the television arm of the 700 Club, the goal of the NSA is total population control.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF_VYNtDgN8
You no longer have to worry about being wiretapped. Now, the NSA can pick up everything you say on your phone, on the internet (Hi, Guys! ESAD!!!) and maybe even when you’re mumbling in your sleep at night if you have one of those beds that elevate portions to suit your physical comfort needs.Let’s not forget the household control bot, Alexa or whatever other names s/he/it goes by. That’s probably wired or goosed up to spy on you, too. If I sound flippant about it, I’m not. I know how easy it is to not only corrupt products meant to benefit people, but also corrupt the people who use them against us USA citizens.
You think you’re paranoid about this? I used to know this guy I went to school with who had suddenly been exposed to the properties of infrared film, which could pick up a heat signal from anything, including a bed where two people had been sleeping, or boot prints in the snow – that sort of thing. Infrared film had finally reached store shelves, but before that, it was a specialty film developed by Eastman Kodak for technical needs in industry, among other areas. He got about as paranoid as you can get over it, until I explained it to him.
You no longer have to worry about being wiretapped. The NSA can spy on you everywhere – literally – like a bunch of pervs with nothing better to do. What they do – snooping into your e-mails, listening in on your phone calls, tracking where you go, with whom and what you do when you get there – is grossly illegal, but they get away with it. (Hi, fellas! FOAD!!)
Maybe it’s just as well. We have enough anti-USA jackwagons in this country now to fill an empty commuter train, so maybe we should ask them to make sure they let us know who they are and how many there are. We might need a warning if they start something.
Read the article linked and watch the video at the link through to the end. If total population control is the NSA’s ultimate goal, I have serious questions about how they expect to enforce it against us. Using the CV-19 episode as an excuse or an exercise in it is as lame and amateurish as you can get. I’d expect something more sophisticated from them, but I don’t think they’re really smart enough to come up with anything like that. It did not work nearly as well as they thought it would. It was quite amateurish and mostly just honked people off. And that is the point: as Pat Robertson indicates at the beginning and the end of his interview with Binney, this is what we never expected to happen, and yet, it is happening right now. I have serious questions about how they intend to enforce anything. Breaking the law at any level might not matter to them, since they’ve already blatantly violated the US Constitution, but it matters to us, as it should.
Buncha desk jockeys come up with something clever? Okay, sure. They can’t even figure out how to tie their own shoes. (sarc) They’re not going to show up at your door, but if they have a way to get Trump’s ear, well….
Have you ever wondered why Bernie really dropped out of the race, other than the obvious reasons?
Category: "Teh Stoopid", "The Floggings Will Continue Until Morale Improves", "Your Tax Dollars At Work"
There are only so many NSA employees and rumor has it they are swamped with foreign communications. One would think adding 330,000,000 additional targets might be a stretch? Not to mention, like when two folks are conversing in Spanish and you get all paranoid thinking they are talking about you – what makes you think YOU are so damn interesting? They are more likely gossiping about somebody unknown’s wife spending too much time with the milkman.
not at all. Modern ICS and new AI platforms automate almost all of the actual surveillance and most of the analysis.
This makes the “experts” available for things like lying about the DNC hack, leaking stories to the WP and NYT, and spying on domestic political opponents.
It’s a win/win for the IC and the do nothing congress.
For about ten years or so, I’ve read references that CIA/NSA are using Quantum systems that by their nature are able to sift through mountains of data in very, very short time frames.
The comparison being that they make a Cray look like a Dos 3.1 PC.
Methods have changed.
They essentially collect everything now.
Then use algorithms to identify things that need their attention.
And the plan is to create the data storage infrastructure to store everything they collect then when something flags their attention they will be able to go back and look at all past communications of the subject as well.
So while the notion that NSA is collecting more than their personnel can handle is true; they have solved much of the problem using computer automated flagging and storage systems.
They also appear to be securing court precedence that essentially says that collecting and storing the information and using computers to filter and sort it is not “monitoring” because nobody actually looks at the information itself until it becomes flagged and then, presumably, the agency that wants a peek can secure the wiretapping warrant too look at it after it was collected.
Keep in mind there are several circumstances where a warrant would not be required anyway.
*precedent
Yes. This is my understanding of how it works as well.
The Tower Committee was in response to several “whistle blowers” from the early 1970s. While some of what they came up with has proven to be ineffective at best (FISA being one of those), the fact that sitting Senators accepted the responsibility for addressing the issues will not happen now. It appears that there is only one sitting US Senator today who takes American liberty seriously.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee
Correction to above; It was the Church Committe.
The Tower Commission looked at the Iran-Contra issue and made many of the same conclusions as the Church Committee about IC conduct, although the scope was considerable narrower.
The lesson? Disengaged leaders are as dangerous as corrupt leaders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_Commission
Adding to the thread; the 911 Commission Report is several hundred pages of detailed descriptions of the government failure at every level.
As with the Church Committee and Tower Commission we learn that the IC is out of control and unaccountable to elected leaders who are out of touch and apathetic to sound governance.
Anyone who believes that the government is a source of solutions to problems has not read these reports.
https://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf
To add more context, mass spying on Americans by our government is not new, nor is it particularly well hidden.
Remember, unelected officials made most of these decisions and ran most of these operations outside elected oversight by Congress. Upon revelation, Congress essentially did nothing each time.
Let that sink in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_United_States
I am completely against government surveillance of its citizens.
But despite the lip service; I am positive several members of this board support government surveillance of American other than themselves.
Just look at all the brainwashed “red scare” nonsense several reactionary regulars constantly spew. Red Scare propaganda and “commies are among us” nonsense was used to justify both surveillance, or detention, or even destroying the,professional lives of suspected communists in academia, the media, entertainment, government, or even ordinary jobs.
There is absolutely no question a few of you supported and would still support government surveillance of “suspected” communists.
I know at least one jackass who visits this tried to report his suspicions of me being a communist to the DoD.
The same otherism has been used to justify surveillance of blacks, labor unions, anarchists, gun rights activists, far right activists, far left activists, Muslims, people opposing administration policies, people opposing defense funding, journalists, opposition politicians, judges, lawyers representing clients who were wronged by governments..,
And that is just the federal level. State and local jurisdictions have also had their fair share of surveillance, wiretapping, and monitoring abuses.
Many of you still think Muslims should be under surveillance.
Many of you think left wing activists should be under surveillance,
Most of you consider Snowden a traitor.
Our government has been on a rampage for a very long time.
A long, long time.
And their most effective weapon has been convincing Americans that the biggest threat to national security is other Americans.
Says the individual who supported the Russiagate Scam.
If you truly don’t believe in a surveillance state, then you can not be a Marxist of any type.
Socializing the people REQUIRES surveillance of the people.
Period. Dot.
Why not come clean here. Your political beliefs require confiscation. Confiscation requires force. Force requires surveillance.
You can stop lying. We already know you for what you are.
And you are no libertarian.
I am not a libertarian because I am not a fucking 12 year old. The Russia investigation was not a scam.Read the god damn Mueller report you lazy ass. Not just accept some 144 character tweet Trump put out about it. Read the damn thing, There is a reason why Trump, who fucking runs the executive branch, has not been able to show that it was a scam other than tweets and vague innuendos about abuses of power. There is a reason he spent the entire time obstructing the investigation and preventing witnesses from testifying. There is a reason he refuses to turn over any of his financial records and he has prevented anyone in the administration from seeing them; even Mnuchin, Trump received hundreds of massive payments from Eastern European oligarchs between 2005 and 2011. That is an absolute fact, I saw unclassified proof of this in 2011 while I was working with the state department. That is why I have been ranting so confidently about what a corrupt piece of shit a Trump is long before anyone even heard of Russia gate. Long before he was elected. I was going through white papers that had been written about developing and transitioning the economies of former soviet bloc economies after the collapse of the Soviet Union, though to the financial crisis, and even into some countries preparing to meet the economic requirements to join the EU. The idea at the time was these countries could be used as a model for Afghanistan because the last institutional memory and expertise the Afghans had of a “functional” economy is when their government was a Soviet puppet. So, if Eastern European economies could be rebuilt from the ashes of the collapse of the Soviet Union economy the same ideas could be tried in Afghanistan. Many of the documents discussed corruption which has long been a major obstacle for transitioning economies and was a massive obstacle in Afghanistan. So I read a lot about corruption. A lot. A god damn ton of information. So much about it that I have been infuriated about… Read more »
Once again, I ask you: With your vast array of knowledge on all things, why are you not making an obscene amount of money as a Government advisor or contractor? You seem to have all the dirt on Trump, why are you the only one? Why are you not coordinating with prosecutors and investigators to bring the President down?
I’ll tell you why. Because delusions and fantasies are inadmissible in court.
******NEWS FLASH******
The Russian Collusion crap was debunked.
“Trump received hundreds of massive payments from Eastern European oligarchs between 2005 and 2011.”
“That is an absolute fact, I saw unclassified proof of this in 2011 while I was working with the state department.”
“Trump has been laundering money for Eastern European oligarchs since at least the mid 2000s.”
Then prove it. If the document or documents are unclassified they should be publicly available. That means you could post them. You saying “I saw it” is akin to someone saying that a friend has a cousin who knows a guy who’s boss has an uncle who saw it. It’s bullshit. So, post your “empirical evidence” or blow it out your ass.
NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE
NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE
NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE
It was all lost in a fire.
Maybe he saw it in some of Das Hildabeast’s 30,000 emails that were illegally deleted and wiped from her server, instead of being preserved as the law requires.
Wiped?
Like with a cloth?
More like whaped…with a hammer!
All this coming from the clown that supports the secret spying on @RealDonaldTrump by a rogue president oblowme and his clown car rejects like comey, clapper and struck stroke smirk…..
Go away larsie-boi, your momma needs you to take out the garbage…
That is not what happened, dipshit.
Then explain the email from Susan Rice.
To herself.
That’s exactly what happened, Lars. Obama had the FBI illegally surveilling Trump’s campaign, and likely others, to a degree that makes Nixon look like a rank amateur. He was also doing it to allied heads of state and God knows who else. This is the same guy who let Eric Holder run roughshod over the rule of law, supplied weapons to Mexican cartels, used the IRS to harass political opponents, didn’t do a damn thing about ISIS (except give them guns, too), and let a United States Ambassador be kidnapped, tortured, and murdered.
These things happened. Deny them all you want, it makes no difference.
This is also the same guy who appointed that paragon of governmental virtue and famed corruption-busting crusader, Hillary Clinton, to head up the very same state department where Lars was employed when he supposedly found dirt on Trump.
This is my astonished face: 😳
You have destroyed your own credibility.
Repeatedly.
Don’t change a note, Komrade Kazoo! You do more to re-elect Trump than most.
I’m going to email the Trump campaign suggesting they put Lars on retainer…
I pretty much don’t trust any elected grubmint official at any level. And yes, they are monitoring everything we say and do. Why do you think they were pushing cell phone use by everyone and giving the damn things away. Isn’t the reason that Al Gore invented the inherwebz was so it would be easier for the feds to spy on us? If it is transmitted, it can be intercepted, decoded and monitored.
The worst case scenes we were exposed to in books and movies growing up are here, now, and getting worse. Big Brother is/has been watching YOU and is alive and well. (Waves at the black chopper flying low overhead)
So, what you’re saying is that spies still spy, intel folks still collect stuff they call intel, and some of it is done in a marginally legal/ethical manner? Maybe even in totally illegal and unethical ways? Kinda like it has always been done. Like, forever.
The main difference today is the tools available to do it. Not unlike the difference between the ways information was collected and transmitted in 27BC as compared to what happened in 1532, or even in 1932.
Every system of spying has always been effected by the ethics of those doing the spying. Ya know, because it is humans making the decisions. Always has been and will be until we find a way to do it otherwise. Which isn’t likely to happen.
As for the inferred film part. John Ford loved to use it instead of plain black and white for exterior shooting in movies such as Fort Apache. The inferred film gave better definition of the clouds and background landscapes.