NICS: Garbage in; Garbage out
Yesterday, we talked about the Sutherland Springs, Texas shooter, whatever his name was. We speculated whether or not he had correctly answered the questions on the ATF Form 4473 when he purchased his firearms and whether or not he popped hot on the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) check at the point of sale.
Our buddy, Susan Keating at People reports that he wasn’t flagged at the point of sale;
Kelley purchased two weapons legally from a Texas sporting goods store.
“Based on information we received from law enforcement, we confirmed that the suspect purchased two firearms from two San Antonio locations, one in 2016 and one in 2017,” a representative of Academy Sports + Outdoors said in a statement to PEOPLE.
“We also confirmed that both sales were approved by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS),” the company said. “We are cooperating with law enforcement as they investigate further.”
According to NBC News, he didn’t get flagged on the NICS check because Air Force Office of Special Investigations never put the information about his court martial conviction for domestic abuse into the system;
In 2012, Kelley was convicted at general court-martial on two charges of assault, the Air Force said. A retired Air Force colonel who supervised prosecutors when Kelley was tried said Kelley was convicted of fracturing his baby stepson’s skull and assaulting his first wife, Tessa, at Holloman.
He was confined for a year, given a bad conduct discharge and reduced in rank to E-1, or airman basic, Stefanek said.
Kelley’s name should have been entered in the National Criminal Information Center, Stefanek said, but the Special Investigations Office at Holloman failed to transmit the domestic violence charges.
According to sources, only 80% of criminals get their names entered into the NICS system across the country. We here at TAH have been complaining about this since the Gabby Giffords shooting, when the shooter in that tragedy should have been arrested for his violent behavior and should have been flagged in the NICS system, but police failed to arrest him.
In fact, most of the shooters in high-profile mass shootings should have been unable to buy weapons because of their mental state or prior criminal activities. Liberals complain about universal background checks, but what good is background checks if the database is incomplete?
In January, 2016, President Obama made a big deal about his Executive Orders in regards to gun control. He boasted that his Attorney General would coordinate with states and law enforcement agencies to make the NICS more reliable. He added agents to the payroll and dumped money into the system and still we get Sutherland Springs.
I fully support background checks, I don’t want criminals to be armed with legally-purchased guns. However if the government is just going to make grand gestures that don’t accomplish anything, what good are background checks?
Legislators like mass shootings, even when the laws fail to prevent those shootings – they can write more laws they don’t intend to enforce, so they can write even more laws and look like they’re “doing something” to make us safer – feathering their own political nests.
Category: Gun Grabbing Fascists
“…Liberals complain about [lack of] universal background checks, but what good is background checks if the database is incomplete?…”
Same reason the libtards want to use the “No-Fly” list to ban people on it from owning guns, despite the fact the no-fly list is basically a garbage list with millions of names on it replete with mistakes, omissions, false names, similar-sounding names, and names of innocent people who have no idea how their names got on the list, but that doesn’t matter as long as it makes the libtards feel better…
” … that doesn’t matter as long as it makes the libtards feel better…”
Sure seems that way, at times.
To me the NICS system is just another federal behemoth that at best doesn’t work, and at worst has been there to be misused and abused by the powers that be in order to punish political opponents or other “undesirables” like American Veterans he was the VA has done people.
I can understand you not wanting criminals to get their hands on legal firearms but at the same time background checks only really work on the law abiding who submit to them, and in the end it’s only the law abiding who end up getting the short end of the stick.
As for me personally? I’m for scrapping the entire system. Get rid of it, don’t replace it and take our chances.
Is it a dangerous proposition? Yes, but freedom is a dangerous thing when it’s abused by bad people. However I’d rather we as citizens have more freedom and be able to better defend ourselves from bad people who would abuse theirs rather than a “feel good” system that’s nothing more than political security theater.
Just my $0.02. Many here will probably vehemently disagree.
It was as recent as the 90’s that long guns were not included in background checks, and you only have to go back to 1968 to see a time when you could buy any firearm you wanted through the mail..
Ah, the 1968 gun control act. One of the federal gun laws I’d love to see repealed.
Unfortunately back then Americans were so enamored with the Kennedy dyanasty and under the spell of their cult of personality. That’s the reason they were able to ram through the ’68 GCA.
Fun Fact: The legislators who wrote the ’68 GCA borrowed heavily from the 1930’s gun control laws written by the Nazis.
And I wasn’t aware about Rifles not originally being included in BC’s. I’m still relatively young.
It’s interesting, although it does make sense. I believe that back in the early 90’s gun control groups were mostly screaming about handguns before the “assault weapons” craze took off.
Yep, I don’t recall the exact year, but I know i bought a shotgun in 95-96, and no background was required at that point.
And yeah, gun banners don’t like it much when you point out the similarities between the 68 GCA and Hiters policy from 30 years earlier.. but when you think about it, the parallels between the “american” left, and the Nazi’s are truly staggering…
Interesting to learn that. I often feel I was born 20 years too late.
And I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees the similarities too. Ever notice how these grand gestures of politicians publicly destroying piles of guns seem eerily similar to book burnings?
Yep, and look at margaret sanger (of planned parenthood “fame”) and her beliefs on eugenics in comparison to the nazi “final solution”… it could be argued that he took her ideas and ran with them..
Margaret Sanger made Hitler look like an Altar Boy…
Over 65 million dead in America alone, close to half a billion aborted around the world, or more…
Totalitarians gonna be totalitarians, whatever they call themselves.
I bet each service branch has their JAG checking to make sure all of their bad guy info has been transmitted into the system since this particular fact came to light.
https://www.thetrace.org/rounds/military-domestic-abuse-nics/
They have some work to do…
Holy crap!
Why is a guy beating women and fracturing the skull of a baby only getting 1 year in prison? Good grief.
Also I highly doubt this guy would have been stopped by a NICS check.
And how does that not rate a DD?
How does it not rate a hemp necktie? Beating women is disgusting. Harming children, especially infants, is inhuman.
This piece of shit should’ve been put down like the rabid animal he was long ago.
Why only 1 year? Dunno. Also ask the judge – or perhaps the Convening Authority (CA). Ditto why he only gave him a BCD vice a DD. As I read the UCMJ, he could have gotten far more – but the judge didn’t give him more. It’s also possible the CA reduced his sentence to 1 yr and a BCD from something higher.
Regarding whether or not it would have prevented him from doing this crime – maybe, maybe not. Reports are that this guy had apparent mental “issues” (I haven’t read what kind) going back to high school. Mentally disturbed people sometimes are easily discouraged, and sometimes are obsessively compulsive as hell.
If he was of the easily discouraged type, perhaps he might never have committed the crime had he been unable to get the firearms he used easily. If he was inclined to be obsessive, IMO probably not.
He’s dead now, so we’ll probably never know either way.
Just my $0.02 worth.
“Why only 1 year? Dunno. Also ask the judge – or perhaps the Convening Authority (CA). Ditto why he only gave him a BCD vice a DD. As I read the UCMJ, he could have gotten far more – but the judge didn’t give him more. It’s also possible the CA reduced his sentence to 1 yr and a BCD from something higher.”
And why was a deserter/traitor allowed to walk and not executed?
more than 8 years of “social justice” actions
Do we know if it was a special court martial or a general? Because if it was a special, the maximum sentence available is 1 year/BCD. Or maybe that’s what you were getting at with the Convening Authority?
Per later comments, sounds like it was a general court martial…
The latest stuff I read says it was a GCM and the charges he pled to carried up to a two year term, so his conviction should have been reported as a felony conviction and as domestic violence.
Replace the term “liberal” with “anti-firearm lobbyist” and I can get behind almost all of what you write here. “Liberal” is a “dog-whistle” label that will just increase the posts and divisive rhetoric.
Also, Jonn, which legislator “likes mass shooting”?
I agree with the gist but these comments lead to echo chamber posting rather than productive comment.
I also agree that there should be a stronger push to strictly enforce existing laws and meaningful penalties that are actually enforced.
Not a liberal or conservative or their derogatory alternative labels; simply like reading debate without juvenile insults.
Old98z, I get what you’re saying but when it’s democrat politicians, “lobbyist” isn’t accurate, and it is only one side of the political isle that is vehemently calling to limit the rights of law abiding citizens after incidents like this (though some who claim they’re on the right do tend to jump on the bandwagon), so your term is actually less accurate than “liberal” in this context.. how about we go with “anti-Constitution douche” that would seem to cover all the bases..
Fyr –
OK, I was looking for a generic term. I agree that many anti gun activists are willfully misinformed and going to spread propaganda to advance the points no matter what.
Their actions serve to harshen attitudes on both sides.
and some probably qualify for a term like ‘douche’ or worse but I try to save insults for specific individuals, not groups of commentators.
Thanks for a civil reply.
Fair point old. How about we just go with “anti-constitutionalist” and save “douche ” for those who deserve it.
“Anti-Constitution douche” pretty much means “domestic traitor.”
Which unfortunately applies to quite a few on a certain side of the isle…
Legislators will play off the drama created by mass shooting without doing anything meaningful is unfortunately true.
The ones that immmediately start salivating when a useful one happens so they can start denying civil rights further such as Nancy Pelosi that said almost immediately after the law Vegas attacks that she hoped any additional gun control legislation would lead to a slippery slope.
http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/10/06/nancy-pelosi-hopes-ban-bump-stocks-slippery-slope-more-gun-control
Thankfully the internet exists and you don’t have to put much effort at all to find the stupid shit liberals say showing their intentions.
Yeah, well, that “slippery slope” goes in both directions, you know.
Very good points Jonn, though might I add one? The Air Farce thought that just one year confinement, and a BCD, Vs. a DD was appropriate for beating his wife, and fracturing his INFANT stepsons SKULL??? WTF is up with the state of Military justice? Between this, the slap on the wrist that many GO’s seem to be getting for their “indiscretions”, and the joke of a sentence that shitbag who helped the taliban (i refuse to say his name), it seems that candy assed leftist apologist judges have infested the system… One more thing Mattis needs to clean up from the previous administration
Go ahead and use his name. Just don’t forget to put “the Ass” or the “Asshole” or some other fitting expletive (capitalized, of course) after it.
Fair enough.. Though given the report i just saw that he was not just spraying the church with rounds, but actually specifically targeted babies, I think he at least deserves the wall of insults, though even that wouldn’t do justice to how low he was..
I would not dignify the perp with the TAH WOI.
Agreed. Save the WOI for posers and wannabes, not mass murderers.
copy that.
ONE YEAR for fracturing an Infant’s skull? IMHO that is DERELICTION OF DUTY on the part of the JAG Ossifer in charge of his sentencing.
“…the government is just going to make grand gestures that don’t accomplish anything…”
It has been my experience that this is what politicians and the federal govt are experts at doing.
In my view, the NICS background check is a pothole. If it’s as full of mistakes as has been indicated, then when you go to purchase a gun and someone who has the same name as you do, but is not you (wrong age, wrong history, doesn’t even look like you) comes up, you have that mess to untangle.
The real issue is that bugbear word “control”, which is something that the silly liberals cling to like drowning victims. They want MORE laws when we already have them in place, but passing MORE laws is the feeelzzzgooood thing that gives them a buzz.
The more laws you have, the less civilized you become. Maybe it’s time we repealed every freaking law in this country and started over.
Recall the policy about NICS delays. I think current law remeains that if a check is delayed more that 3 days then a sale can still occur. Isn’t that how
Dylan Roof still obtained a handgun despite pleading guilty to drug possession the month before?
The system needs more support for it, not to strip it away.
I wasn’t talking about delays. I was referring to being mistaken for someone else, which requires proof that you’re not the person on that list. Same thing with the no-fly list.
True and I was not trying to debate your point. Just trying to add the the point that the NICS needs more thought and then support.
In my mind, idea good; implementation lacking.
I believe that Cal Thomas ended up on the no-fly list – probably maliciously entered by a liberal – and has had a lot of trouble getting his name off of it.
The fact that it is secretive as to who is on there, why they are on there, and so difficult to challenge exacerbates the problems.
There is the option of providing a SSAN on the 4473 form. Not required but there is a statement that it will prevent a delay should something like you refer to happen. I always give them my SSAN because my name is John Doe.
Well, let’s say I google my name and find a couple hundred women with the same name, all different ages than mine, but two of them have spent time in jail for something like a hit-and-run accident and/or shoplifting and pot possession.
If I go to the local smoking gunshop to buy a gun, and have not done it before, I won’t have any way to prove I’m neither of those women other than mug shots and my driver’s license. But I’m the one who has to prove I’m not them, and I’m the one who gets denied what I need/want because of something someone else did. If there are no photos of those two available, I’m stuck, unless I go after the NICS to correct THEIR records in my favor.
” … unless I go after the NICS to correct THEIR records in my favor.”
Bingo. And there, in plain view, is the 8 ton Tyrannosaurus in the room.
Some bureaucrat decides (reasons run the gamut) Joe Schmoe needs to be on some hit-list, and the INDIVIDUAL is required to prove otherwise with very limited time and/or resources available to him/her to accomplish that. Very few have that.
The IRS/BATF/DEA have raised this to a fine art-form.
“Joe Schmoe”
Oh great. Schmoe rhymes with Doe.
Now I have to worry about every Joe out there that is a felon.
It may be that the only way to fix this is to file a valid complaint against NICS/TSA/DEA/WHATever for incompetence in and effort to get the thing scrubbed and trashed.
I don’t want people like Dylan Roof to have guns, either, but there are plenty like him who will take advantage of cracks in this system and cause serious damage, whereas the rest of us don’t do that but get the worst side of the impact from it, because WE are the law-abiding citizens.
To play Devil’s advocate… has anyone ever known of someone being denied a purchase based on a similar name? The birthdate or at worst the social tend to eliminate that. Re the no-fly list – that DOES have an issue with similar names – Teddy Kennedy was on it at one point courtesy of an IRA bombmaker named Edward Kennedy. Took Teddy with all his connections almost 6 months to get off.
David,
Having worked in a sporting goods store for a while, I did know multiple people who were initially denied, but after lots of legwork on their part, were cleared and allowed to purchase. In Colorado, we have a state check, as well as the federal, which is silly redundant, and the number of initial denials that are overturned is roughly 58.8%.. so by anyones math, that’s more than half.. (that number comes from a Denver Post article)
I don’t know. I’m just pointing out the possibilities, nothing else.
How about same birth DAY but not YEAR? The SSN does have a blank to fill in, but it is optional, and you’d have to demand that they shred the document or black that out after the OK comes through.
It does not mean that you can’t be mixed up with someone else, as happened with SEN Kennedy.
Ex-PH2 wrote: “I wasn’t talking about delays. I was referring to being mistaken for someone else, which requires proof that you’re not the person on that list. Same thing with the no-fly list.”
True story with names and places changed to protect the innocence:
Back in the 1980’s we had a student at the PJ School from another country. He had a very common name for the country, similar to “John Doe” here. He did the paperwork for his security clearance and the FBI showed up at the schoolhouse. Seems he was a wanted criminal; or at least that was what they thought. Seems there was a warrant out for “John Doe”. And when his named popped because of the background check the powers to be “jumped into action”.
Now it did not matter to them that the “John Doe” on the warrant was at least 30 years older, our “John Does was in his mid to late 20’s; but that did not matter. It also did not matter that the physical description was different or that the last known position (recent) was overseas and again our “John Doe” had been in the states for almost a year. The FBI wanted to take him into custody.
Fortunately we were able to place him under “house arrest” and 24 hour supervision until his identity could be confirmed. Finger prints were taken and sent off to some place. About 2 weeks later we get a call that he was not the 50 year old, much shorter and balding “John Doe” living overseas and he could be released. Never got any type of apology from the FBI.
/sarc/ So yes, I have total faith in these lists and those that use them. /sarc/
I saw a report claiming he “fell through a crack in the system” WTF, if that 80% figure is accurate, that isn’t a ‘crack’. That’s a damned chasm, and inexcusable. Typical government run efficiency/incompetence. And that sweetheart plea deal he got? Christ on a crutch, who thought that was a good idea?
Jonn,
Here are some numbers from the government. (sorry about the math)
In 2016, NCIS denied 8,854 for domestic violence convictions.
The NCIS has 142,402 names in their database for a domestic violent conviction.
According to the BJS, in 2000 there were about 75,000 people in state prisons for domestic violence.
We know that it is a mathematical impossibility that over half of all domestic violence perps (ever) were in jail at the same time. Even before this case we could say that NCIS doesn’t have all the domestic violence cases.
Another thing is the .04 percent referral for prosecution rate for lying on the 4473. That means 4 out of every 10,000 felony falsifications are even considered for prosecutions.
You know that NCIS doesn’t have all the data it needs and even if you get caught, oh well. So go for it.
On another subject, why did the State deny his CC permit? What did they find that the NCIS missed and why?
Could be that the background check was done by LE local enough to know of his negative history. Pure conjecture there.
I’ve also heard speculation that he might have incorrectly filled out the TX concealed carry application. It’s also theoretically possible he lied through his teeth on the BATFE 4473 but forgot to do so on the TX state permit application.
Dunno. The real pity is that he was never entered into NICS after a disqualifying conviction.
fyi, when you submit an LTC app you submit a fingerprint card… his court martial may have shown up then. I sincerely doubt DPS would take it any further after that… expecting minimum wage clerks in an Austin office to say “wow, this guy is clean from NICS but has a DV according to his fingerprints – we should make sure the FBI has all the info” is a bit of a stretch.
It may be worth noting that before we switched ti NICS there was a mandatory (5 day?) waiting period – NICS is at least mostly prompt.
I’m a computer geek (literally grew up around them from the 1960’s on) and petty bureaucrat of about a quarter of a century.
GIGO is always a very real problem, although in this circumstance I would argue that the better phrase would be NINO, Nothing In, Nothing Out.
Any database is only as complete and accurate as the data put into it. I do not see this as a failure of NICS per se but, as Jonn says, of the bureaucracy, or the procedures, utilizing the NICS.
The answer is not, necessarily, to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I support the NICS as it is currently being utilized. It is not perfect, but I have yet to see any human institution or system that is.
But I would argue that one ought to view any such thing as just an impediment to crime, not an absolute preventative. I saw on another webpage where someone tweeted something to the effect that there are those who view laws as magic spells that, when passed, change reality. If this spell didn’t work, maybe the next spell will.
We know that is not how the universe works. Those given over to evil will continue to work evil – we just need to be ready to fight evil at any and every turn.
Could the NICS system be improved? Probably. I believe that holding the different judicial systems responsible for accurate entry of the data – and liable for their failures to do so, would help improve the NICS system.
However, we have a saying in the programming world: You write a fool-proof program, and the Universe creates a better fool.
It is also hard to quantify how many criminals the NICS has stopped or forced to use another means of committing their evil. Counting failures is easy. Counting what never happened is hard.
GB: Well said. If we enforced the laws we already have, much more good would come from this vs. passing MORE laws.
We are debating the nics check system as if it had any relevance at all to the problem of evil people
Would liberal anti constitution statists and rinos be happier if he had chained the church doors shut and set it on fire?
It’s already against the law to murder other people
We had a column of TAH recently where the murderer served less than 2 years
Here is a child abuser who served 1 year
The problem is the criminal justice systems both military and civilian
Not the nics check
Yet another case in which the system would have worked if the federal employees (Air Force in this case) involved had done their job. How’s about the individuals responsible for not logging his data get charged as accessories to multiple murder? Because that’s pretty much exactly what they are.
At the very least, how about dereliction of duty.. Should be no problem making that stick… but then again, it’s be the same system that let this ass off so lightly in the first place, so….
wow, I obviously need more coffee… or should re-read before hitting post..
It wasn’t their failure to enter the domestic violence conviction into the NICS. It was their failure to sentence him appropriately in the first place. That guy should have never walked the earth as a free man again after his conviction.
I’d say it was both, but very true Eden, if he’d gotten the sentence he deserved, he never would have been a threat to anyone..
Didn’t Hondo write yesterday that the question boils down to what kind of court martial the guy got? That if he got a SCM the MAX penalty that they could assess was the 1 year sentence? That the law specifically states a felony comes from a sentence LONGER than a year, so 12 months from an SCM is a misdemeanor whereas a 12 month and one day sentence from a GCM would be a felony? Or did I misunderstand it. If I didn’t, you would have to point the finger all the way back to when he was charged that someone took the easy SCM out instead of convening a GCM… which I suspect was part of a take-the-SCM-and-plead plea agreement.
David,
Yes, Hondo did write that yesterday, and i saw somewhere since (I believe an official statement from the Air Force, but not sure) that he did face a general CM, so he would have been exposed to much greater sentence, but all of that is actually moot when it comes t lying on the 4473, and being ineligible to own a firearm (though it does make two lies on the form, instead of one) because even a misdemeanor conviction for domestic violence is a no-go for firearm ownership…
Absolutely true, any DV is a disqualifier due to the Lautenberg amendment.
To me a couple of the more amusing omissions from the news coverage is that the guy who shot Kelley is a) an NRA instructor and b) was using his own AR-style ‘assault rifle’.
Yep, not surprising that most of the MSM ignores those facts.. but in the early press conferences i saw with the Texas LE folks, they did mention those facts, to their credit.
Texas LE (other than big-city Democrat police chiefs) are notably pretty pro-gun and pro-NRA.
Help me out here. The turd had a BCD, and some are saying that didn’t prevent him from possessing firearms. But isn’t it more about the character of service than the discharge itself? A DD speaks for itself. But a BCD under dishonorable conditions would be a big red flag in NICS – provided it made it that far – wouldn’t it? The ATF Form 4473 on line g asks, “Have you been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?” I can’t imagine that turds BCD being anything else.
There are only 11,313 reported DD in the NICS database.
AND 1, ONE, domestic violence conviction reported by the DoD.
BCD = Extra low-life shibaggy maggot.
Coming in at the end of this unhappy discussion but one thing must be said: REGARDLESS of background checks this villain had to answer questions and he had to lie. The domestic violence, restraining order and BCD are DISQUALIFYING. The check would have told the gunshop folks that he was ineligible. Why did he think he wasn’t going to run aground when he stepped up to the counter?
DOUG out