We do more before noon….
Remember when “we do more before 9AM than most people do all day” was a selling point for Army recruiting? Well according to Fox News that may be a part of history as Fort Carson dabbles in later “first calls”;
Fort Carson’s policy to allow soldiers to begin work later and exercise in the afternoon during a 2014 pilot program was one of several factors that made it stand out in the Health of Force report.
[…]
The change in the Fort Carson exercise schedule, a 2014 experiment at the post, was credited for countering the Army’s chronic problem with sleep deprivation. [Col. Deydre Teyhen, assistant chief of staff for the Army Medical Specialists Corps] and other experts say a lack of rest is one of the Army’s biggest health concerns.
“We are sleeping much worse than the average American,” she said, noting that 85 percent of soldiers lack adequate sleep.
The Fort Carson experiment allowed soldiers to sleep in by moving physical training, normally conducted before sunrise, to the end of the duty day.
Yeah, well, even after I got out of the Army, I still liked getting my PT in early in the day than have it looming at me throughout the day.
Thanks to HMC Ret for the link.
Category: Army News
More opportunities for excuses for Soldiers to get out of PT now.
Considering that obesity rates lowered, the force is healthier, and performance has increased I would say that less soldiers are missing PT and less soldiers are getting injured. If it makes us more lethal, it is a good thing.
Annnnnnd here you go
http://i.imgur.com/S84tmIo.jpg
“You’ll get enough sleep when you’re dead “
This. My first squad leader (E-5) said it every fucking day.
He is STILL in after 30 years this June! 0-5.
WTF ever happened to “FIDO, quit bitching and drink water!!”?
Funny, the only times I’ve been sleep deprived due to an early formation is when I got home late the night prior (sometimes due to work, but usually due to travelling or social activities) or stayed up late (usually drinking). I have to be at work by 0625, but I wake up around 0430, get to work by 0520, and usually do some PT on my own before formation. Using backward planning, I try to get close to seven hours of sleep by going to bed no later than 2130, and usually succeed at getting 6-6.5 hours. If I really want to sleep in, I’ll set my alarm for 0530 and still get to work early.
Pushing PT to the afternoon will bring its own issues. For example, Fort Stewart started mandating 1.5 hours of PT in the mornings (as did Campbell twelve years ago); will we be taking an hour and a half off the back end of our current schedules or adding that time to the end of the duty day? I’d much rather get off before 1700 than at 1830 daily. Also, this might have been nice in the mountains, but after a career spanning the humid and hot Southeast–Campbell, DC, Baton Rouge, Stewart, and soon Benning–I can say that heat casualties would probably rise exponentially if this became an Army standard. As for traffic, anyone who has served in northern VA, DC, or other areas with ridiculous traffic can probably vouch for the relative pleasant nature of the early morning commute versus commuting in rush hour.
The units I’ve been in have been good at giving late work calls or even comp days as needed. They’ve also been pretty common sense about sending Soldiers home when the mission for the day is done, usually thirty minutes to a couple of hours prior to the official 1700 close of business. Morning PT has worked for decades, why change stuff now?
Probably because the current klown krewe in DC wants to “fix” everything they can into a state of FUBAR.
The PT hours at Carson at 1530-1700.
Ft. Carson is not in the mountains. It is at elevation, and it does mean that there are cooler temps. It is not uncommon for it to reach to triple digits in the summer.
From what the study has said, it generally improved the quality and performance of soldiers across the post.
For your last question, we understand how the human body works more than we ever have. We are changing things because it is better. Better means more lethal. Better also means less cost as soldiers are healthier and have higher readiness.
I may just be a grumpy old NCO, but I think that countless things other than what time we PT have caused the quality and performance of the Army as a whole to go down. My first unit had the highest morale and readiness level of any I’ve been in despite tough PT, mass punishment, and the inevitable late afternoon layout that guaranteed we’d get off after 1700. As evidenced by my earlier post, I’ve never been to Carson, but I’m willing to bet it has much more forgiving summers than the majority of the Army’s CONUS installations. West Point got warm when I was there for CLDT, and both Campbell and McNair get into triple digits a few days each year; standing in dress blues on Summerall Field sucks in the summer. I’d take a two-hour Change-of-Responsibility ceremony on Fort Myer over a 90 minute endurance mobility PRT session at 1530 on Stewart anyday.
As for change, it can be good. I guess the modern battlefield is understood by our current leadership much better than it was by their predecessors. We’ll never have to haul ass early in the morning overseas after spending all night patrolling, and the A-10 really should be retired so some overweight drone operator can support us (only between 0900 and 1530, and not during their 1130-1300 lunch).
I apologize for sounding confrontational, but in a couple of months I’ll be training tomorrow’s Army. If they can’t Soldier-up and plan better sleep schedules, what’s the point? Hell, maybe life on the trail will be easier…0730 wake up to the sounds of Kenny G; 0800-0900 all-you-eat in the DFAC; 0900-1200 classroom instruction in individual movement techniques (hands-on is far too stressful); 1200-1300 field chow catered by Cicis Pizza; 1300-1530 prepare the ice sheets for afternoon PRT; 1530-1605 Preparation Drill, Hip Stability Drill, Ability Group Run; 1605 release to barracks due to Drill Sergeants and installation emergency services being overwhelmed by heat casualties.
The thought of an AGR brings up another concern. Do we close run routes 30 minutes before the civilians leave work?
There are certainly many things the Army needs to fix.
They just announced that we might have to start doing PMV safety courses this fall. At least they are looking at things that could improve the quality of the force, instead of jamming more nonsense down our throats.
“Morning PT has worked for decades, why change stuff now?”
Officer needs a fitness report bullet.
When I was stationed at Camp Atterbury we played by big boy rules and did PT on our own (we were all E-7 and up). I found that if I didn’t do PT in the morning then the whole day my mind was making excuses for not doing it in the afternoon. So even though I didn’t have to I still drug my happy ass into work to do PT at 0630.
Yeah, Charlie would always ask if we had enough sleep before he attacked.
^^^^ — This!
Nope, all for it. If they studied it properly and found it improves performance, even better. I get that we don’t always get to dictate our sleep schedule on deployment due to mission requirements, but is there really a need to get up at the ass crack of dawn while in garrison?
We got a brief on the study. They are doing this right.
I understand that the guys who grew up with something being upset when it changes, but it is changing for the better.
Sorry, 1600-1730
Ya know, an awful lot of soldiers I’ve known were natural night owls. I’m a terrible early bird; evening exercise is hard for me, but for those guys…they’re just starting to rev up about 6 – 7 pm. It sounds crazy, because we always think of Army PT at zero-dark-thirty, but maybe this needs to be given a chance.
Soft, just getting too soft.
Our force is the most lethal that it has ever been… How are we becoming soft?
Don’t get me wrong, todays military is better trained, better educated, better equipped than any fighting force in the history of mankind.
Notwithstanding that fact, lack of rest and sleep deprivation was an essential part of becoming a Marine.
It was deliberately planned and executed. It started after midnight when you arrived at Parris Island and stopped when you got a DD214.
You did PT drunk, sober and sick. If you quit you were a pussy and everyone knew it. There is one thing that you can never do as a Marine and that was to quit. Don’t ever quit, not ever.
Your purpose for existing was to kill the enemy. Train to kill the enemy under any conditions.
In all my years in the Corps I never once had anyone worried if I should sleep in. In fact they went out of their way to make sure I didn’t. I later made sure others didn’t.
PT until you puke. Then do it some more. I did PT in Iceland at 10 below and in the desert at 110.
The more you sweat the less you bleed. In todays world that sound like you are trying to be a hard ass. Back then you were just in the Corps.
Thats what I mean by getting soft.
I get it. Looking at this objectively, I can’t dismiss the results. If it works in making soldiers function better, and have lower rates of injury then it is a good thing. The human body functions better this way, so we should embrace it.
I go get that point as well. Excessive injuries will not make us more lethal.
However, training to kill the enemy requires an elevated risk of injury. We are now at a point where a sprained ankle is considered unacceptable.
The human body may very well function better this way. If I am your enemy I will plan to kill you when you are not functioning at your best. In fact, I will attack when you are at your worst.
Without sleep, tired and hungry. I hope my enemy does not train under those conditions.
I will.
Well you clearly have a lot of science to back up your point of view don’t you?
And we wonder why 25% of the combat arms units are on profile.
For the few that used to get a profile, they were removed from combat arms line units.
Dave Hardin: “Today’s military is better trained, etc” has been a mandatory part of every E-9 and up’s speech since the stone age. I loved that speech as an E-1 and I checked my knuckles for drag marks as an E-7.
Better trained because they can argue MAC vs PC? They weren’t invented when yesterdays’ military served.
I’d agree to differently trained, differently educated, and differently equipped.
Are they better? Let’s hope so; but let’s not give them credit because it fits the cliché.
I often have the same feelings. There is no doubt they are better equipped. I remember when my armored vehicle was an M151 with canvas doors if I was lucky.
I think you expressed one of my intentions better than I did. The better education training in the use of better equipment is wasted if they become soft at heart.
Accommodating training to meet their convenience and reduce injuries comes at a price.
The young men and women who defend our country have my respect and always will. They deserve our unfiltered response when they take a wrong turn in preparing to do it.
“I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.”
I hope they never forget the enemy will be prepared to go without food or sleep in an effort to kill them.
I won’t. Semper Fi brother.
Nothing soft about the troops coming through here at SWCS…MF’ers make my heart soar.
Re-born hard. I know there are still a bunch of you out there.
Semper Fi…do or die.
Must be a slow news day at the Denver Post.
The article says this was an experiment that was tried, failed and terminated more than a year ago.
But yeah, it sounds like another brain fart from the Fort Carson Good Idea Fairy. PT at 1700 when the civilian work force is trying to get off post after the work day? That’s a NO GO from the Git Go.
I’m betting it didn’t even last long enough to “capture any credible data” that was worthwhile to any type of Health of Force Study.
When I left in November of 2015 PT hours were still 1530-1700 across the post.
I wouldn’t call a verifiable and measurable improvement a failure.
Code of Conduct
for
Members of the United States Armed Forces
I
I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.
II
I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.
III
If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.
IV
If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.
V
When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.
VI
I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
Well, this is not what the military does or did, because when I was in back in the Stone Age, there was no PT to be found, unless you counted bending elbows and lifting pool cues at the EM Club. BUT… My schedule was up at 5AM, get to work by 6AM, hit the cafeteria for a small breakfast (the Admin & chow hall were across the airfield), go do whatever I was assigned to be doing, leave at 3PM, and get home soon enough to be on the road to the place where I boarded my horse. Then muck stalls for an hour, school my horse and at least one other, maybe two, for the riding school, for about 3 hours, and go home, get a shower and hit the sack by 10:30PM. I slept like a baby, was quite fit, and had a healthy appetite. Then when I went to the civilian work force, I did the same thing only a little earlier, get up by 4:30AM, get to the ice rink for practice by 5AM, skate until 6:45AM and then go home and get ready for work. Leave work by 5PM, get home by 6PM, head out the door for open skate ice, spend two hours on one rink or another in the evenings from Monday through Friday, and on weekends, practice ice at 5AM, teach beginner classes from 9AM to noon, get some lunch, go to open skate at another rink and then dinner, then back to my rink for another two hours. The evening hours spent training horses and cleaning stalls, or skating, had me quite fit. Before I started skating, I ran at night after work, two full laps of 10 blocks down, 5 across and 10 blocks back. I think it really does work better and do more good if it’s after work. Most people in the civilian work force go to the gym after work, anyway, because if you commute by bus or rail, you just do not have time to spend on exercise. I don’t see anything wrong with putting exercise… Read more »
“I don’t see anything wrong with putting exercise hours after work. It might result in less drinking and fooling around.”
THERE’S a good point! Not a popular one, maybe…but a good one. 🙂
We always PT’d twice a day.
Standard Army PT in the morning and then in the afternoon either weights or sports.
Silly.
Ya, that is how people that cared and wanted to stay above the slandered did things. PT was for unit cohesion and PT at night or after hours was to stay in shape. Military PT on its merit will not keep anyone in shape and pass PFT I think you guy’s call it. Yet we advertise this shit so the public and other countries see the changes, and they don’t get that this makes us look week.
Garrison should be all about me as should combat. What night is salsa dancing night? When will we be able to start bringing our dogs to work? Salsa night simply isn’t enough to motivate me.
There were a lot of mean looks in basic. Too many, if you ask me.
Special Snowflake
Sky pushups…begin
And the enemy will adjust their attack time to fit our schedule. . . . . . ??
I was unaware that the enemy is attacking our CONUS posts…
I see this argument a lot, I would argue that sending people downrange in better shape trumps doing PT early. A fitter and healthier soldier recovers faster, beats illness faster, and handles stress better.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim.
I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
My only complaint about morning PT was not sleep, but that they’d always hold it during breakfast hours meaning they wouldn’t allow enlisted to eat. God that pissed me off all the time. Making me pay for services they would routinely deny me. No reason why anyone in garrison shouldn’t be able to eat a damn meal either. This often applied to lunch too where you maybe got lucky to grab a bag nasty of terrible junk before you had to be back doing jack shit for the rest of the day.
My enlisted days, especially the SP4 period, are telling me this is a good idea. My SGT time is not so sure. My officer time is screaming that it is stupid. Is first call at 0900 still? Joe is good because he will now stay out till 0200. Work starts at 0900 and we mess around with formation until 0915. Then fart around moving to work until 0930. Then knock off for lunch at 1115 (to beat the traffic rush to the food court beginning at 1130). Then back to work at 1300 and really start working at 1315. Then knock off work at 1500 to go change into PT uniform so we can be be there for the team leader at 1515 before the 1530 formation. Or we are told to skip PT to continue track maintenance in the motorpool. Bottom line, we are getting about four hours of work, maintenance or training time a day by putting the end of the day up against a hard time, rather than starting it would with PT. Personally I prefer to sleep in and workout in the afternoon,and it probably is healthier but my 27 years of service, all but three of which have been at tactical levels are all saying it is a dumb idea.
This^^^
^^^^PING, BUDDA-BING!!!^^^^
I think first call during the test was 0800. So 3 hours to 11, one hour break, and 4 hours after lunch to 1600 for PT.
The idea that work is done to time is a waste of resources. Proper time management would dictate that you accomplish tasks in priority order and not by how much you can get done in a day. I’m sure some people stay late, it is the Army.
So if you’ve met the work standard at 1400, you are going to do PT immediately, and everyone pukes up lunch or cramps from running too soon, or do you wait for the designated start time? As for lunch, every place I have been for the last twenty years had 90 minutes. I don’t think I’ve seen a true lunch “hour” since 1990 or so. Start the day with hard PT, wake the guys up, train/maintain/work until you’ve met the requirements and go home. Sometimes that’s early, sometimes it’s late. If they choose to stay out late the night prior, so be it. I don’t do that anymore but I don’t begrudge anyone else.
I always went for a 10 mile run at the end of the day. I didn’t mind getting up in the morning and still get up about 0400 everyday but I hated exercise in the morning. I think they should try getting up in the morning as usual and then trying the pt later in the day first before chow.
PT at o-dark-thirty!
If you are a fatbody, then you do it AGAIN in the afternoon AFTER 1700 formation while us skinny fucks are drinking beer.
Army Infantry
1989 – 1992
Don’t get how this is news. At Bliss from 2010-14, we did “reverse cycle” PT for several winters. As I recall, the workday would start at 0700, and PT would occur from 1530-1700. So you spend about the same amount of time in the office and slightly more doing PT. Like someone else said though, it makes it much easier for the fat bodies to find valid – sounding excuses for not doing PT and remaining fat. So there’s that.
I would have liked this. Get up get dressed. Eat breakfast, formation say 0700, train, maintain details, get dirty, and sweaty, quick change into pt gear, get sweater, go home shower, no mad scramble to shower clean barracks, do police call, and eat breakfast only problem would be if after pt we might find out the motor pool line was messed up or there were unsat weapons in the arms room.
If I remember correctly, one of the (many) reasons for doing PT at oh-dark-too-damn-early, was to get you used to, and conditioned to, pre-dawn perimeter stand-to, the traditional time of enemy attacks.
Maybe, but the battlefield has changed. Early Morning PT is much more about tradition than performance.
I get up and PT before 5 AM. Working on getting that started shortly after 4 AM as summer approaches.
Lots of 6 + mile runs, with a good angle on the constellations of the zodiac, and the planets, along my running route. Got a view of all 5 naked eye planets late January early February during these pre dawn runs. Got to witness planetary motion during that time span to… Mars is booking it, and since we relatively recently overtook Jupiter, it looks like it’s going backwards.
When it’s time to do Army stuff, with first formation at 6:30 AM and PT afterwards? Easy day, it’s “sleep in” time.
My idea for a tweaked work schedule:
0730 – Work Call
1030 – PT
1130 – Lunch
1300 – Work Call
1630 – COB
Shrinks the overall day from 10.5 total hours to 9 (assuming a 0900-1130/1300-1700 work schedule) while maintaining an hour of PT and 6.5 hours of work time. Late morning may still be too hot to regularly do PT at some installations during the summer and those places could keep the present schedule but it’s a lot better than mid-afternoon, and is also a hell of a lot better than early morning during the winter. DFAC hours would need to be adjusted to allow soldiers to eat before work, but that’s certainly doable.