Think Lightning Never Strikes Twice? Think Again. (Updated)
Remember about 6 weeks ago when a former VA employee in Rhode Island got sentenced for stealing VA tombstones awaiting disposition and using them to pave his carport? Think it couldn’t possibly happen again?
Well, you’re right. It didn’t happen again.
At least not exactly. This time it was a patio and a staircase that were found to be paved with what appeared to be VA-provided veteran’s tombstones. And it was in Missouri vice Rhode Island.
I’m dead serious.
The St. Louis Post-Dispatch has an article with more details. It’s worth a read.
Sheesh. You’d think the cheap bastard who did this would have at least had the decency to turn the headstones name side down.
At least now the matter is under investigation by the VA OIG.
UPDATE: well, it looks like no investigation will be required. The owner of the home in question has admitted that the patio was made from discarded headstones he found in a landfill. (A local monument company apparently did at one time did make VA headstones.) He also went on to say, “I was just making something out of nothing . . . I didn’t know.”
Presumably he means “I didn’t know that was a bad thing to do.” Make up your own mind whether you believe the guy or not.
The guy also indicated he’ll remove the patio. Presumably that goes for the staircase, too.
Walking on tombstones is cool. Walking on Veterans’ tombstone is even cooler. Five will get you ten that the only person prosecuted will be the guy who took the pics. The owner wasn’t home at the time they were taken.
2/17 Air Cav: unless the property was fenced, was prominently posted with “NO TRESPASSING” signs, or the individual had been told by the owner verbally to stay off the property, almost certainly not unless he entered the dwelling itself. It appears the lack of notice is an affirmative defense to the crime of trespassing in MO.
http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/56900001401.html
I didn’t mention trespassing b/c I didn’t want to go there. But, since we are there, a fenced-in backyard that is entered will usually work to establish trespassing.
True – if the backyard is fenced. But if not, under MO law apparently it either has to be prominently posted or you have to be verbally told to keep out.
The article is supposedly near Lake Nofolk in southern MO. Just a guess, but I’d guess there’s no fence – particularly if it’s someone’s vacation home.
Actually the person who reported all this was an old shipmate of mine who was invited onto the property. More to the story, but the bottom line is it just isn’t right regardless of whether they were discards or not. I don’t agree with using them at all, but the big deal is that placing them with the engraving visible was intentional.
Hondo: Not quite. While failure to warn is an affirmative defense to Trespass in the First Degree, any time someone enters onto property which they have no legal right it meets Trespass in Second Degree, where no such affirmative defense exists. The only requirement is the person must know, or should know, they are committing the infraction (MO 569.150.1).
True. However, if the property is neither fenced nor marked IAW MO 569.145.1 or 569.145.2 and the person has not been told by the owner to keep out, unless the property is restricted access due to some other provision of law (e.g., jail, court house, etc . . . ) proving unlawful entry to other than a building will likely be quite difficult.
Why is it that DRT comes to mind? Like beaten to death with a baseball bat! Dirty S.O.B.’S!!!
(Off topic: 2/17 AirCav – I’ve asked Jonn for your e-mail address).
OK. Raise you hands….who *ELSE* here thinks that this is creepy and disturbing?
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
/ok, maybe it’s just me. 😉
Not just creepy and disturbing, but also shiteatingsonofabitchmudda-fuckin’ WRONG AS HELL, WTF was going through that soulless ghoul’s mind when he did that?
Hell, I avoid walking over graves themselves like Melvin Udall avoids sidewalk cracks.
Very disturbing, extremely creepy and brings to the surface the obvious fact that this person has no moral compass and sence of what is right and wrong!
That is just Grade A, fucking WRONG! God Almighty!
They were replaced by new markers, right?
I have mixed feelings about this. Yes, he is a cheap bastard for doing this. I agree with that. But I’ve seen memorial sidewalks where you pay for a brick or a tile with someone’s name and deceased date, or ditto for a beloved pet, so that everyone knows about it.
I’d be truly disturbed if he had just ripped them off the graves, but if they were being replaced and would be otherwise destroyed, is it so wrong to preserve them?
What if I have a garden and the local veterans’ cemetery is going to destroy them unless someone wants them? Can’t I do a memorial walkway through my garden? IS that really so wrong?
I feel it would have been one thing if he had either laid them face down or removed the names, but I see his making a patio out of them face up as downright ghoulish.
That’s a good point, because it doesn’t appear he intended to do anything else with them.
That’s what hit me too, PI.
I could maybe have given the guy a pass if they were all writing-down. It would have been better to use a milling machine or saw to remove the top 1/2″ with the writing, but unless he was really good that’s difficult without the proper equipment.
But putting the writing up to be seen – and walked on? That’s . . . wrong. Just freaking wrong.
As someone with (some) residential experience in stone/brick/tile work, milling down would be impossible without serious industrial equipment. Anything I ocassionally rent comecially would’t do it properly. An angle grinder with a dry-cut diamond wheel could be used to easily de-face the name, but there again we get into the fact that (someone is) de-facing a memorial for a former service member. I’m a free-cycler. I give away a lot of used/un-needed things because I hate to see shit thrown away someone else can use. And I have a habit of hoarding. And I’m too lazy to ebay things most of the time. This is different, tho. I’m a bit conflicted. I can see where perhaps a respectful (something) could and maybe should be presented – as opposed to shit-canned in the landfill – but bottom line it’s still kind of creepy.
Wouldn’t you find it more offensive if they were laid face down Infidel? Honest question, I could see names removed but face down just seems worse to me.
I worked at Ft. Rosecrans National Cemetery and the same exact thing happened in 2010. When Grave markers are made incorrectly or become damaged, they are replaced. The old grave markers are then to be “Honorably Destroyed”. Marble is expensive. When I was at Ft. Rosecrans some V.A. CWT workers took over 100 markers slated for destruction. The used them to make a basketball court in their trailer park. Somehow the powers that be discovered these destroyed grave markers were missing, conducted an investigation. The individuals property was raided, they were arrested. The grave markers were returned to their rightful pile near the cemetery garbage and were then “Honorably Destroyed”
My grandparents and uncle are buried at Fort Rosecrans.
It takes a special kind of asshole to do something like that with gravestones.
If those were rejects and had been replaced, the only decent thing to do would have been to place them FACE DOWN!!
Even that is rather disrespectful. I posted above some thoughts. Face up and walked on? Face down in the dirt? Crushed and used as fill for a roadway?
I guess in the grand scheme of life it really doesn’t matter. I guess when mine finally gets retired I’d rather my marker get crushed into a roadway than some douche-bag spilling beer on it. Then again, maybe after-life beer adrift might be a gift?
I can’t read the article on my computer for some reason, but if this is one that I saw reference to somewhere these were not actually grave makers but rejects – they had some sort of typo. They should have been turned into gravel. I still think it is a bit creepy, but it does not appear that these were “stolen” from a grave.
Don’t believe I either said or implied they were stolen from graves, Susan. In fact, the same was true in the other incident in Rhode Island. Those were also headstones that were awaiting destruction. In that RI case, a cemetery employee filched them before they could be destroyed. (VA policy apparently is that the stones are to be destroyed when replaced or if in error, not used for another purpose.)
Here, the homeowner (see the updated above) apparently found the headstones he used discarded in a landfill, retrieved them, and then used them to pave his patio and stairs.
I have doubts these were all intended to be grave markers. I seen the original post. They appear to be part of some effort for a memorial wall or sidewalk. Some of the bricks simply show service and are recent.
It is common for people to fund projects for new side walks by getting people to pay for bricks with names on them. Something tells me these were for such a project that never came to fruition.
JMHO
Don’t think so, DH.
The standard width of a VA-provided headstone is 13″.
http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/hmm/types.asp
Look at the top left photo in the montage above. I’d bet long odds that those square wooden posts are 4-by-4s. That makes those stones roughly 13″ x 6″ or 13″ x 6 1/2″.
A second indicator is the inscriptions that are visible. Those inscriptions that are visible in the photos are done the way the VA inscribes veterans’ headstones – to include the placement of the cross. I’ve seen far too many such tombstones not to recognize that.
I’d bet long odds that those are former VA-provided veteran headstones that have been cut down to approx 13″ x 6″ or 13″ x 6 1/2″ rectangular pavers.
That is plausible Hondo. These exact things can be ordered just as they appear in the pictures. There are countless memorial walls and sidewalks across the country that do this. The dates on many of them are very recent, I doubt they were taken without being missed by the people who purchased them only a few years ago.
The one project I was involved with had, sadly, many such stones ordered and never paid for. This kind of makes me wonder what ever happened to those stones.
I hope they are not in someone’s back yard being used as a BBQ pit.
I thinks they are grave markers. Grave markers, typically are bronze, but can be fashioned in marble and granite as well. I thinks!
As I said to GDC in another thread, the really important thing here is that the Confederate battle flag wasn’t used. Walking on the names of deceased Veterans, whether the stones were rejects or whatever, just doesn’t strike me as right. But I’m also against gay marriage so what the hell do I know.
From the updated comments on the article, it seems the monument company changed hands and instead of destroying the culled/rejected markers properly, they instead simply dumped them into a ravine to be covered with dirt, but before that happened, people got to them and carried them off.
The update also says the individual involved has limited mental/physical capabilities and did not realize he was doing something that could be construed as being disrespectful.
Thanks for that update. I need to check on the status of some that I know were never picked up.
So, he’s using the “I’m retarded” defense. Is this a group home?
I watched the video of the reporter’s interview with him and unless he is a really good actor, he does indeed appear to be somewhat challenged.
He’s even rocking a Billy Bob Thornton/Karl Childers Sling Blade haircut, so YMMV as to his authenticity.
It took a bit of patience to finally get the news video up and running. Might have to disagree with your speculation that he appears to be somewhat challenged. This space cadet is from another world. Bet he never served in the military.
My only other thought is this: How would any person on this site feel if a name was recognized as one you served with? Worse yet, how would any one of you feel had a headstone carried the name of one of your relatives who made the ultimate sacrifice? Hypothetical I realize, but worth thinking about. IMO, not a person on this site would have used the head stones with the name up, no matter what!
I had the same impression, Jarhead.
Is he the sharpest tool in the shed? Probably not. But IMO he doesn’t give the impression of being “mentally disabled”, either.
Wait, what’s that I smell? Tar? Chicken feathers?
I know what to use those for….these shxtheads.
Sheesh. All the dipshit homeowner needed to do was install the found stones writing-side-down, this would have never come to pass. Just admiration for “gee, what a nice patio”.
THINK, people, THINK!!
It seems to me that the best thing to do would be to use those old tombstones to create a memorial wall circumnavigating the patio (assuming local regs permit) and putting regular stone on the ground.
Is this acceptable to anyone?
I think so. Still kinda creepy. I posted above, I have some conflictions about a lot of this, but something respectful has to be better than shit-canned in a ravine or landfill. Not walked on, not face down in the dirt. Still, it’s not like it was the dudes family or anything.
Oops, meaning if the markers for service members of his family, I’d have much less of a problem with it… Obviously, however, they aren’t.
After reading the story im not that upset about it. I would have preferred that he use the discarded markers as walls but at least they are preserved. Its not like they were the actual markers removed from graves. Id be in my truck on the way to MO if that were the case
Got heartsick seeing these photographs. someone thought using these headstones was acceptable this way. I doubt that the owner (impaired or not) was the only one to install and then walk on these markers. I agree with previous posters, this is unsettling.
Who did the markers belong to before they were discarded?
If the VA is investigating, did taxpayers pay for the engraving before the markers were discarded? If yes, then we know they were disposed of improperly. Even if no, it still is disrespectful to allow veterans’ engraved markers to be used in this way.
Unfortunately you can’t legislate respect. Or common fucking sense. Or God damn decency.
I know that there are paver stones made in memory of people, and there are tombstones. IMO two completely separate things because it would possibly (depending who you are or what you’ve been through) effect the way you approach them. If this guy was a veteran who had the mindset of some sort of memorial of forgotten servicememovers (because he found them in a dump) or just making an area of respect for those who gave their life for this country, I would completely understand. But just doing some shit like this to save a buck is just as disrespectful as that skank who was giving the finger to the sign at Arlington (IMO, of course).
I hate my phone. *servicememovers =SM
Your phone hated you first. Go rotary.
When I copyright a rotary touchscreen smartphone, I promise you at least 25% of the profits 2/17.
I must be reading all the wrong home decor magazines. Since this seems to be a popular choice for decor. Here is a rich UK developer doing the same except using children’s headstones to pave his home.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3202107/Millionaire-property-developer-used-children-s-gravestones-patio-country-mansion-inspired-Things-Bright-Beautiful.html
That sounds about as classy as when the Nazis used Jewish tombstones as pavement.
Ok. You just won the creepy thread award there, Chuckles. That shit was wierd.
Ok, so some may think he is retarded.
I don’t, he is a total moron, especially with comments like, “I was just trying to making something out of nothing”.