Women to be allowed into SEAL units
Now, with the news that two women will graduate the Army’s Ranger School even though they won’t be able to serve in Ranger units, the Navy says that they won’t be outdone. They’ll not only include women in the training, but, if the graduate the selection program and training, women will be assigned to the SEAL teams, according to CNN;
“Why shouldn’t anybody who can meet these (standards) be accepted? And the answer is, there is no reason,” Adm. Jon Greenert told the publication. “So we’re on a track to say, ‘Hey look, anybody who can meet the gender non-specific standards, then you can become a SEAL.'”
If women can pass the unit’s demanding training requirements, Greenert said, they will be allowed into the elite force. Officials did not reveal to Defense News when they plan to allow women to compete for a spot.
I agree, if a women can successfully endure the grueling training, they can certainly qualify for an assignment to the units. However, as with the Army’s training, there shouldn’t be any accommodations made in regards to the standards. The standard is the most important thing here, not the social engineering.
Category: Navy
Since I do know somewhat about this, Navy combat photographers, male and female both, already train with the SEALs. They qualify as combat swimmers, but they have not until now gone through the final stage.
Qualifying as a SEAL is an entirely different thing, and a step up from being a combat cameraman. And yes, that is the correct title for both men and women, although it’s been changed to combat photographer.
There are women who operate in Dive/Salvage and also go through BUD.
BUD is Basic Underwater Demolition school. The /S means /SEAL. BUD is the first part of it. SEAL quals come AFTER BUD.
Wrong. No “Combat Photographers” go through any portion of BUD/S. Candidates at BUD/S are there for SEAL training, that’s it. No women have attended BUD/S. Dive/Salvage pipeline is entirely separate.
Yes, but I did NOT say they went through BUD/S. I said they train WITH the SEALs, right here: http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=61462&cpage=1#comment-2634100
And frankly, since they are combat photographers, they are expected to drop the camera and use the weapons if required, meaning if attacked.
Sorry, but yes you did say that! “‘There are women who operate in Dive/Salvage and also go through BUD.'”
NO, I said they go through Basic Underwater Demolition school – BUD.
I did NOT say they go through BUD/S. The /S is for SEAL. Go back and read it, sweetie.
There is a huge difference between training with a SEAL team and going through the SEAL training course itself. The SEAL team has already completed the course.
I hope that is clear enough for you. If not, let me know.
I can’t find any school in the Navy that is called BUD outside of BUD/S.
Can you provide a link which shows that combat cameramen go to BUD school?
“There are women who operate in Dive/Salvage and also go through BUD.”
“I said they go through Basic Underwater Demolition school”
There is no “BUD.” You’re flat out wrong. Own it.
The Navy Times article yesterday had some pretty interesting info. Though women have been permitted in both the Salvage Diver and EOD rates for years, in each field the number of women is below 1%.
I had the discussion with one of my former (retired) Navy colleagues this morning concerning this story. I actually think that the Navy in many ways is miles ahead of the Army and Marines on running women through training, because as a more technologically methodical service they have historically had a better handle on standards and procedures and can do a much better job of defending their standards.
Sadly, the Army and Marine can’t necessarily do that for many of their combat arms MOS’s.
Wrong! I spent many years in the community and was a wanna-be at BUD/S in 1986.
BUD/S is the starting point for SEALs.
In the Navy the diver schoosl are: Basic Scuba; 2nd Class Hard Hat; 1st Class Hat; Dive Sup and of course Master Diver.
No female has operated within a SEAL Team, Squadron, Unit, Platoon on direct action However, there are many who support NSW combat operations. In the community we refer to anyone in support “Combat Services Support Team”. We had advanced skills in weapons, first aid, driving, tatics, comms, intel and othe fun stuff that might be klasserfried.
I betcha the first “try outs” will come from Navy Divers and or EOD (here are many fully and most qualified), USNA, CB’s and the best of NSW CSST!
But what do I know …
I said that, too, Master Chief, down below.
This article is from 2007, but it refers to what I said at the start.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,144263,00.html
At the bottom of the page, one of the combat photographers is a woman.
That may be the case, but according to the Navy Times article, that accounts for around 16 women total in both the Active and Reserve Navy.
Its and interesting opportunity cost for someone to tryout and make the team.
Let’s hope the Navy does it right this time and avoids another “Kara Hultgreen” situation.
I met Kara on two occasion prior to her accident. She was just an inexperienced pilot who was transitioned way to quickly from one airframe to another (she was a fully carrier qualified EA-6B pilot before going to F-14s) without getting the opportunity to acquire the necessary proficiency in either.
The Navy learned a painful lesson in airframe transition, and change how they integrated folks going forward.
Yes, I will be interested in how the Navy runs this program on the officer side, as mere selection to go to BUD/s coming out of USNA/NROTC is very competitive in and of itself. You fail, and you get utilized by the needs of the Navy.
First, there is NO selection!
Second, you must volunteer!
Third, you must be recommended!
Fourth, your must pass PT, physical and achieve academic requirements!
Fifth, you must prepare!
Sixth, you have to be assigned a class!
Seventh, you must check out from the reality you know!
Eighth, you must arrive at Coronado and assimilate IAW the NSW and BUD/S culture.
Ninth, you must progress through each phase without failing, dropping, ringing the bell and with the full confidence of all the instructors!
And the tenth thing you have to do is … complete the course and graduate!
I am certain that Viper’s mantra applies here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1oxR_ShmYE
100 points if anyone can connect the Hollywood dots I just presented with the video!
Go for it.
I’m sure women can do just as well as men at standing around in UDT shorts wearing Oakleys while using excessive amounts of hair styling products….
Kenny Loggins needs to come out of retirement and write a proper theme song for them.
“Why shouldn’t anybody who can meet these (standards) be accepted?”
Exactly. If you can do the job, the job is yours. That’s the new standard. This macho, he-man, sexist stuff has just got to end and, by God, the military means to end it.
If I send you a box of chocolate chip cookies and a free ice cream coupon for Baskin Robbins, will that soothe your wounded feelings, AirCav?
PH2, just include a real cone with the cookies. Couldn’t make any bigger mess than the Dems are making with our military.
Are you saying AirCav misses his own mouth when he uses a spoon?
Hey, I’m good with it. No need for cookies and milk. I’m at the point that I’m just laughing at all of this stupid stuff. Unfortunately, when the military is sufficiently sissified and people unlearn what the actual mission of our military is, (and it’s really not to hold umbrellas or race to be first to accomodate transexuals) we’ll have need for traditional Fighting Men and the shit will hit the fan.
Well, I have to agree with you, AirCav, because when the SH and IT do hit the fan, the military will no longer be looked at as a bunch of toy soldiers on parade, and the prospect of getting killed will be a turn-off to potential recruits.
However, by that time, women who are perfectly capable of breaking things and killing the enemy will still show up at the recruiters doors.
I don’t give a rats ass, anymore.
Word.
OT wins the thread!
All I know of SeAL training is what I have seen on the Military Channel. That is, not much. I do recall seeing a phase of training that required the candidates to hold a large log up over their heads for an extended period of time. They are also required to move that log around over their heads. They also have to carry an inflatable boat around for a while. I doubt any woman in the training would be as strong as any man in the training, even if she’s stronger than average. Won’t that just put a lot more stress on the men who are having to hold up just that much extra weight? Aren’t there a lot of team activities where the failure of one team member fails the whole team?
I don’t see there being any kind of objective way to say that a woman has met the standards when she’s participating in an exercise that relies on the physical strength of the entire team. I don’t know, I can see this backfiring on the Navy.
Those exercises are done in teams and are meant to teach the candidates teamwork. In Marine Force Recon, the Marines in training work as teams, including hitting rolling surf as a team with a boat.
It is not about physical strength, it is about teamwork. The clue is the name of the unit at the end of training: SEAL TEAM #XXX.
Yep, it’s all about teamwork. No physical strength required here. No reason that a weaker female would make this harder on the males on the team. No reason at all.
Gee, I sure see a few strong, muscular men who can’t seem to hold up their end of the log. Wow, guess they must be women in disguise!
Did that comment actually make sense in your mind? “Women can make it through and would not be a detriment to the team, because some of the men who are in the training can’t do it and they must be women.” Seriously? You’re going with that?
If you must know, some men are physically weaker than women. While you’re sorting that out, I’ll make a batch of chocolate chip cookies for you so that you can soothe your wounded feewings, too.
Your idiocy is exhausting. None of this “hurts my feelings”. I don’t give a flying fuc* if you and the Sisters of Solidarity want to be SeALs or Rangers or whatever. What I am saying to you – objectively and with no bias whatsoever – is that much of the SeAL training relies on objective physical strength. Not the kind of strength required to do push-ups or pull-ups, but the strength required to lift either 25.7 or 57.1 pounds off of your right shoulder, over your head and onto your left shoulder over and over again. Men are better equipped for that than women. It’s a fact.
Some men are physically weaker than women, that’s also a fact. But, the men who are at their breaking point in this video are not just “some men”. These are some of the fittest men among fittest men. If the fittest men are breaking down, then the fittest women will break down sooner. When they do, what will happen to the other 6 men on the team who have to take up the slack?
For comparison’s sake, let’s look at the Crossfit Games. Specifically, the Snatch Speed Ladder. The women participating in that event can lift more than me in the snatch. No doubt about it. But, here we’re comparing the strongest and fittest women to the strongest and fittest men. The MAXIMUM weight for the women was 180 lbs. The STARTING weight for the men was 250 lbs. The best women in the world top out at 180, yet there are men at my gym who rep that.
No matter how mad it makes you, you can’t dispute the fact that the strongest woman on the team is only going to be, at best, as strong as the average man on the team. When thrown all together the physiologically weaker women will make it harder for the men to complete the training.
Are you aware that the shortest SEAL on record was 5ft tall? I’m sure his LACK of height was a detriment to the rest of the TEAM he was training with at BUD/S.
I’m also sure that the physical strength needed has nothing to do with what you can do in a gym. I have no idea what it is that makes you think women can’t hoist stuff over their heads. I do it all the time, and I have arthritis in my neck and back. That is possibly the dumbest thing I’ve come across all year from anyone posting here.
2T451USAF, we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. It doesn’t hurt my feelings at all or make me mad lol.
You don’t know NSW!
There are no SEAL candidates who are weaker than any female. In the general pop, sure, there are a number of sissy males and brute women. Here? No.
Those men that are physically weaker than some females aren’t trying to get into the ranks of SEALs, either. If they are, they will be washed out quickly. So; what’s your point?
In addition, you said yourself that what you know about SEAL training, you got from watching something on TV.
That’s exactly like me saying I know all about EOD work from watching ‘Bomb Patrol’, which was a documentary about the Navy’s EOD teams doing ordinance disposal in Afghanistan.
FYI, that TV show was quite watered down from REAL training episodes. The instructors are a helluva a lot nastier when the TV cameras are gone.
That’s what I was thinking, too.
SORRY, forgot to change to the SARCASM font.
Team work is critical, but each individual contributes to the strength and weakness of the operational capability the team provides. Pertinent to this there is a minimum standard of human performance in terms of competency, dependability, reliability and survivability each member of the team is expected to bring to the team. Consequently there is a combat fitness element which incudes strength that is a concern.
Navy, no. Guys on the teams, sure as shit.
And again, let’s spend a disproportionate amount of training dollars for slots where the failure rate of women is going to be 5-10 times higher than men. That’ll work.
Well, as I said elsewhere, since there are women who have qualified as Navy divers going back to 1975, I think your guesstimate at the failure rate is a bit overwrought.
If you had read my first comment up at the top of this column, you would understand that you have to go through dive school first before you can even get to the team part of it.
I guess it’s just a whole lot easier to bitch and moan about something than it is to read for comprehension. I
Jebus everyone…. Quit yer bitchin’
We already HAVE Female Navy Seals.
http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=48440
*snerk*
😀
Yes, I agree. Look at the bright side. Females in the SEAL Teams means more female posers. Females, while present, have been underrepresented in the poser ranks. This new policy change is a step in the right direction to remedy this situation, and one that I fully and unequivocally support.
Next week there will be a minimum of 17 women sporting RANGER tabs.
Yes, I fully expect to see that LtCOL rapelling nurse Whizbanger claim that she was a Navy SEAL nurse. She’s already claimed just about everything else.
And why not? A certain non-CPO/non-Oregon Attorney/non-fuel-tank-checking excuse of a pilot known to TAH has claimed to have been a Rabbi SEAL Chaplain a few weeks after posting a slew of Anti-Semitic remarks to yours truly on Disqus!
Are you still poking that washed-up featherless buzzard?
You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head, Jonn.
I know it probably seems strange to most men, but there ARE women out there who want to be warriors. That doesn’t mean they will automatically make it through training like this, but at least give them the chance to try. It is going to be difficult, there will be a period of adjustment when the men are getting used to having women in their midst, and the women will be getting used to being around and working with some of the most aggressive, hard-charging men in the military. But keep the standards for the training as they are, and let the women try.
Are there enough of them to justify opening the slots? Seriously, and what exactly is the military advantage to be gained by going down this road? If there is some advantage being sought, is it worth the expense?
Most likely, the Navy will recruit them from women who are already qualified Navy divers. There IS a history of Navy women in this kind of training, right here:
http://www.history.navy.mil/museums/keyport/WomenDivers/Wdivers5.htm
Note that several of them are medical personnel. Every SEAL Team requires a medical operative, so this is a logical place to look for candidates.
Not really. There is a reason combat diver qualification is not simply being a scuba diver. Further the medical capability needed involves getting through some of the difficult medical training provided to enlisted personnel. The academically fail to train eliminations from such medical training whether Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force is among the highest anybody would like to put forth as an academically difficult course.
Perhaps you should the resumes of the women in that link I provided. Some of them are medical officers.
Back in the 70’s and 80’s, there were similar questions regarding male nurses. With so many women applying to nursing schools, why let men in? Why would men want to be nurses, anyway? And what about the safety of the female patients they were caring for? Wouldn’t the hospitals be opening themselves up for lawsuits for rape?
Turns out that men make great nurses. No, they don’t go on raping rampages among female patients. And the men give the nursing schools that many more suitable applicants for the field. And men also bring new ways of thinking and doing things to the profession. Far from being a liability, they are an asset. It’s possible that women in the martial profession may do the same thing, but only if they are given the chance.
These are three retired women Navy divers.
http://www.navy.mil/view_image.asp?id=6568
Ex,
I know all 3 and worked with 2 of them o TWA Flight 800.
They were all the best of the Officer Corps in Navy Salvage Diving operations.
At OP TWA Flt 800, we all worked for ADM Christenson, COMNAVLOGRON, his son was a SEAL and killed in OP RED WINGS.
I was stationed with the Admiral’s son back when he was an ENS/LTJG. He was well liked by the crew. I’m pretty sure that if he had said “We’re going to attack hell with buckets of water” then there’d be a fight to see who could get to the buckets first.
CAPT Gina Harden is not retired. She is a combat veteran (IRQ & AFG) and a good friend. She continues to serve in the Reserve Component in FL.
Sorry about that. I thought she was retired.
Just curious. Has the Army eliminated sexist cadence lyrics, you know, ones like, “I don’t know but I’ve been told, Eskimo ______ is mighty cold. And are expressions such “every swinging ____” now taboo? How about the traditional wake-up of “Drop your ____ and grab your socks?” I hope so. The US military is no place for such language.
Yep, “GET THE FUXX UP AND GET MOVING! ” will end an NCO’s career nowadays, it looks like they’re supposed to softly say “Gee whiz you guys, it’s early but we need to wake up, oooookay?”.
But, sarge, I didn’t get to bed until 2 this morning. I was up studying, “How to Stifle Your Heterosexuality and Traditional Values in the New Military” by K. Moerk.
I’ve heard another NCO career ender is getting the Starbuck’s order screwed up.
Can you imagine what happens when a wakey-poo unicorn gets handed a single strength latte instead of a triple?
Oh, the humanity.
Oh, I’m sure the GIRLZZ can come up with some shit of their own, boys.
Kiss, kiss! <3 <3 <3
It ain’t always the Jodie chants that get you into trouble. On a unit run years ago at TACOM (circa ’85 or so) one of our newly arrived SSG hollered out we sounded like a bunch of pussies. Actually, he hollered it out several times. It was often enough that it angered a female CPT enough that she went up and started raising hell with the CSM. All the principals had a meeting with the CG the next day, but I never did learn the particulars of that tete a tete (or whatever the plural of tete a tete is).
Have you ever asked yourself what might have happened if that SSG had been a female hollering ‘limp dicks’?
AAM at the least, probably an ARCOM and meritorious promotion….
Yes, but I left out that nasty word ‘faggots’, out of PCness.
Yeah, there would have been a half dozen woodies and someone would have said, Please keep talkin’ dirty.”
I remember when I was a wet-behind-the-ears “Joe” in OSUT training back in *COUGH* when one of our DS’s had us do the cadence “Look to the left and what do I see, a bunch of broke-dicks lookin’ at me” when we were double-timing past another unit, even that would be a career-killer these days!
Just substitute ‘idiots’ for ‘broke-dicks’ and you’ll probably be okay. Even Moerk would probably let it pass, no matter how much everything annoys her.
I’ve used it since substituting “wannabes” for “broke-dicks” and only got one EO complaint, I shoulda tried harder!
I doubt it. They day the CO of team 1 introduced his wife, a Navy Commander and ship CO to his Master Chief, the Master Chief SO said “Fucking A cool, chicks on ships”. She laughed when she told me that story and she never used foul language.
Fill in the blanks with “Dick” “Titty” and “Clit”.
Carry on.. I’ll be laying down lyrics all day.
If a woman can increase the combat efficiency of a unit as cost-effectively as a man, bring her on. If she requires extra cost for special considerations, adjustments, or standards than the males do – no. Times is tight, and every change (yeah,and I am including the F35 program!) that can’t carry its own weight financially and come out on the sweet-smelling side of a cost/benefit ration should go.
I’ll give you guys a little list of things that have been traditionally male jobs, because they paid money. And this is going back into history, not just recent stuff.
I’ll start with the Middle Ages.
Making clothing: men made ALL clothing, including women’s clothing, for the courts and for middle classes. Women only made clothing if they were peasants because they were not paid to do it, and it was for their families.
Cooking: Men were head cooks at all levels in society, going back to ancient history (Greece and Rome, etc.). Government kitchens and public facilities like sidewalk foodstalls (yes, they are there at Pompeii) were run by men and the cooking was done by men. Women only cooked for their families.
Secretaries, personal assistants: Men held these positions, period, until the typewriter was invented in the 19th century. Women were the first to learn to use that machine.
Pirates: Anne Bonney and Mary Read were 2 of 10 female pirate captains; the rest were men.
Airplane pilots: Men dominated this until Amelia Earhart became a public figure. There’s all sorts of PR for war pilots but nearly none for the women who ferried war planes from one air station to another in all conditions for the Army during World War II.
It is and always has been about money. All you have to do is follow the money.
That’s why I joined the Army, for the money. At $300+/month, I was living large. I used to light my smokes with $20 bills. And I lit the 20s with 50s. I had a gold Zippo that I used to light the 50s. My Rolls never saw a gas station. Wherever I went, I had a fuel truck follow and the lads would keep me rolling.
You got $300/month? Oh, man, I KNEW I should’ve joined the Army! The Navy never gave me that much until my last year. That is SO unfair.
It appears I exaggerated a little, now that I checked out my base pay when I entered the Army.
Back in the mid 60’s I made $87.50 a month. 🙂
In the early 90’s when I ETS’ed I my take-home as a Bachelor E4 was a WHOPPING $640 a month, talk about living the high life!! /sarc
Would those smokes be the ones that came with the C rations and/or sundry packs?
Ah, yes. If I recall correctly there were four to a pack. Maybe it was three. “If you got ’em, smoke ’em.”
I’m remembering 3 – but it’s been well over 35+ years since I saw a C-rat with smokes (mid or late 1970s). Maybe it was 4.
C ration cigarettes were 4 to a pack for filters and king size and five for regular size (ie Camels and Luckies). Sundry packs had ten cartons, about half of which seemed to be Kents.
The other half were Salems.
SP packs also had items such as Chuckles, Palmolive Gold, TP, razors and blades, toothpaste and other hygiene related stuff.
But no half stepping on Log day or else all you would get would be those yummy Hershey Chocolate Tropical Bars.
You couldn’t even give those damn things away. If you tossed them to the kids, you would get them back as a 90 mile per hour fastball.
Telephone Operators: the jobs were originally given to men, but the Phone Companies quickly changed that when they found that the Male Operators argued with customers too often! (NO SHIT, that was a sidenote in one of my high school History textbooks!) 😀
I forgot about that one. I”m sure there were others, but I meant to be brief.
So, you don’t have to be a victor to write the history books, only a textbook publisher?
It’ll be more cost effective to have female Rangers and SEALs than to have transgenders in the military.
Just sayin….
Yeah, but what if one of them wants to be a guy, not a girl? Now, that could be a confusing issue. Does she stay a girl to please the PC crowd and make the change when she retires? Or does she get the service to do it while she’s still A/D?
I can’t wait for the discovery channel documentary.
T.H.O. anyone???
Just a few thoughts:
1. There is a science behind being a SEAL.
2. NSW knows who can potentially be a SEAL.
3. They know almost immediately who can’t.
4. Size does not matter.
5. Although physical strength (and ability to rebound quickly) IS important, more important is mental toughness, focus, ignoring the pain, pushing through obstacles that get in the way of completing a task, teamwork and being able to handle the cold water.
5. Did I mention the cold water.
BUD/S training in phases 1 (conditioning) and 2 (dive) are water centric. And in 3rd phase land warfare on the Island, yeah your open ocean swim is cold and wet too.
So, in review, it is not easy.
Their motto at BUD/S: “The only easy day was yesterday”.
HooYah!
Yeah but can a girl do it?
Well, we have to put up with YOUR shit, don’t we, Manchu?
Well you do have a good point.
It’s very interesting ready the comments on here as well as The Ranger school girls. Imo I think it’s great that the army females made it through Ranger School. Keep in mind it is a leadership course. Now does a mp officer and a aviation officer have a purpose for learning small unit tactics, fuck no. But…. Oh well. Now as far as woman serving in special ops or even combat arms, let me give you a heads up. Everyone in the combat arms is sick and tired of large majority of outsiders giving their dumb ass opinions on this. If you don’t have a green, tan, or maroon beret, or a trident, or a cib for that matter, then your opinion is fucking irrelevant to me. You are a outsider, most likely one who has no fucking idea what your talking about. It’s in one ear and out the other. Too many armchair generals. And one last thing, there is no equality in war. Isis, the Taliban, Haqqani, and who ever else does not give a fuck about your views on equality. It’s sad that this is a bigger topic than the va, troop reductions, and many other military related issues. So thanks to all the combat infantrymen, snake eaters, Rangers, Seals, etc for your opinions. If you are not one of those you are a leaf eater. ///nothing else follows///
Master Chief, you left out the clown on a bicycle.
MC puts it succinctly. However, for officers (see some posts above) the ability to lead is continually under review. Being able to “handle” the physical demands of training, ‘cuz the Pacific O. is cold & cold is painful, is only a part of BUD/S.
That’s true, but it’s a little-known item that SEALs were pantyhose under their wetsuits to deflect the cold water.
And there are people who actually love cold water, too.
Sister Mary Ernestine used to say, “Remember this always: Behind every successful man stands a good woman.” Sister Ernestine, God rest her soul, would be horsewhipped for saying such a thing today.
I remember a plaque my Dad had when I was a kid that said “Behind every successful Man is a Woman telling him he’s WRONG”!
“Behind every successful man is a surprised Mother-In-Law.”
This is all nonsense. Putting the focus on their ability to complete the training is only a small part of the issue.
I could give a shit less if a very few could complete the training. Its only the school everyone keeps talking about.
I have lived with 30 Marines in a birthing area about 20′ wide and 30′ long. I am probably overstating the size of the area.
This idea that they should be treated equal is bullshit. They dont even expect to be treated equal. When they agree to shit, piss, shower, dress, sleep, and masturbate in exactly the same space everyone else does then things will be equal.
Oh please, a very few manage to get through school……then what. A year and a half of training down the shitter because they decide to get pregnant? What about training when they don’t even know if they are pregnant yet?
New standards for the gas chamber? Ya, just claim you might be pregnant and your ass gets pulled out of the line. What is the SOP for diving pregnant? Being deployed to a combat zone pregnant?
Lets fill those already very few slots for training with candidates that are most likely to have problems actually being deployed.
There is probably a woman out there someplace that could kick my ass. There is no woman out there that could have been deployed exactly like me without all kinds of special attention both logistically and emotionally.
A couple of women get through Ranger School…..good for them. Let’s give then a cookie. Now what?
It’ll give new meaning to the term “birthing area”…
Seriously, though, let the brass–who’ve long forgotten or never experienced traditional Infantry field conditions–and those who support full gender integration learn the hard way. We had men who had already served in Afghanistan in 2002 try quitting when we rolled into Baghdad in 2003. The sights and smells, sleep deprivation, physical hardship, lack of food and water, uncleanliness, sanitary conditions, and everything else takes a toll on even the heartiest person. Heck, by the end of the second day of operations I was reeking of ammonia, could stand my DCU blouse up after it dried due to salt stains, and was hoping to get shot in the ass so I could drink some cold water and have something more than an MRE snack for sustenance.
We did have a damned good driver on the GAC to Baghdad, though. She (yes, it was a female from the Transportation unit) had to exit the vehicle on one stop to vomit after experiencing her first bloated and headless body. To her credit, though, I heard she had to be ordered to stay behind the wheel when we were ambushed outside of Baghdad and her gunner froze. The column was stopped, we were in the kill zone, and she tried “manning” the .50 until the TC (a 2LT) ordered her back into her seat.
Yes, a rotting corpse does have a certain scent to it. I’ve come across similar things, not fresh kills but not 10 days old, left by coyotes on my hikes and the smell is beyond nauseating. If it’s just bones and hide, it doesn’t bother me.
“When they agree to shit, piss, shower, dress, sleep, and masturbate….”
I was good with all of those except for that last item. I had to look it up. For the benefit of others that word means chicken chokin’–spankin’ the monkey–answering the bonerphone–making the bald guy puke.
cc: K. Moerk
…Milking the lizard, pumping the porpoise, squishing the squid, bopping your baloney, smacking the salami, strangling the one-eyed wonder worm, playing five-fingered jack, a date with Rosie Palm, anyone offended yet? 😀
No, but thanks for adding to my combat vocabulary, API.
At least you didnt spank the monkey.
I have to add here that my cat objects strongly to the use of the word ‘pussy’ unless it is directly connected to ‘cat’, as in ‘pussycat’. He is very Large and In Charge. His word is iron.
Hah! Who knew that the movie ‘G.I. Jane’ was a documentary!
*Ducks and scurries for cover*
😀 😀
A few reasons I support this decision:
1. The Navy killed my grandfather…I’d have never joined that service regardless out of respect to the man I was named after.
2. I don’t like deep water.
3. The Navy Recruiters who worked across the hall from me deceived young men and women regularly to get them to enlist. My station had honest NCOs (though other stations were less stellar).
4. I don’t like heights, especially when those heights involve hitting deep water.
5. Despite my dislike for the Navy, I’ve already seen every episode of JAG–Harmon Rabb and Sarah McKenzie did things that no SEAL would ever be high speed enough to do. Besides, Admiral Chegwidden was a SEAL.
6. I don’t like cold water, especially when it’s deep and immersion in it was preceded by jumping from a helicopter, plane, or falling off a ship.
7. The SEALs in “The Rock” were annihilated by Recon Marines, despite the presence of Kyle Reese/CPL Hicks. The man could stop a Terminator and survive an onslaught of Aliens, but died at the hands of a man best known as a serial killer?
8. I just really don’t care about gender integration anymore. Heck, I’ll probably be the Drill Sergeant for some of the first female 11Bs. I’m chauvinistic enough to appreciate going to Benning instead of Jackson, but professional enough to welcome the upcoming challenge, if Infantry is opened to females in the next four years. I have a feeling that the first female Infantry Recruits will be much easier to handle than most non-combat arms IET students (of both–maybe soon all–genders) at Jackson.
Per your item #7 – Michael Biehn is the actor you’re referring to. His job is to make you believe that he IS the person he’s playing on screen. It does NOT mean that he IS like that off-screen, or that he does any of those things in real life.
If you can’t distinguish between film/video and real life, between fiction and non-fiction, you have a problem.
Ex-PH2, I was being facetious. Michael Biehn was one of my favorite actors growing up, since he had a tendency to play the underdog. Take on a Terminator, when all of humanity is decimated by them in the future? He pulled that movie off perfectly. Take on a whole slew of Aliens, yet still get one-upped by Sigourney Weaver? Love that movie! That scene in “The Rock” is great (I just watched it again for the first time in years) as, fiction or not, it shows the determination of the commander of an elite unit in an unwinnable situation. I’ve been an Infantryman for fourteen years, with combat service in both Iraq and Afghanistan, have helped lay hundreds to rest in Arlington National Cemetery, enabled young men and women to join the Army knowing full well that my comrades in The Old Guard may one day bury them, and will soon be training young men (and likely women in the near future) to survive the rigors of ground combat as Infantry Soldiers. I make light of things because I hope to return to The Old Guard after my time at Benning is up. I do not want to bury anyone–male or female–whom I first met while performing my duties as a Recruiter or as a Drill Sergeant. Combat is messy, people get killed, and starting next year I’ll be one of the few NCOs who gets the honor of playing a role on all sides of the Infantry experience. Recruiter: “You’re fully qualified. Sign right here, you’ll be fine.” Drill Sergeant: “Listen up, this will keep you alive.” Fire Team Member: “My NCOs have trained me well, I’ll make it through this.” Infantry NCO: “My Soldiers are well trained and we’ll keep each other alive.” Staff NCO: “If only I could do something to help those guys out there besides monitor Transverse.” Dignified Transfer-of-Remains (Dover AFB)NCOIC: “Sixteen transfer cases…this has to stop sometime.” Honors Funeral Casket Team Leader: “Side step, March. Ready…Step”. Honors Funeral NCOIC: “Sir or Ma’am, this flag is presented as an expression of appreciation for the honorable… Read more »
The Navy Has been ahead of curve from the get go. We have already had woman qaulifie for Riverine Units which now work with SWCC from time to time now under a new oprational formate. Riverine is classified as a Combat Unit. Master Chief and PH2 I am with you and think that EOD,CSST, Seabees, riverine this is were the first woman will come from. We had many woman on Seabee CST’s Convoy Security Teams and now CSE Convoy Sucurity Elements and have come under fire and returned fire in kind so yes I think some of them can do it. One more thing The services have already done this with Female engagement Teams the ones that work with SF Called cultural support teams I worked with them while attached too SOTF-A Special Operations Tasked Force Afghanistan working out of VSP’s and VSO’s/Fire Bases.
Do I know you?
I was NSW U-2, MIUW, IBU, EOD, OST-2 and ST-18!
No I don’t think so I have been with BEE’s Most of the time I was inn have worked with NSW in Afghanistan 2012 and some work With EOD in Iraq 2010-2011 IA with the Army, Marines 2003 and special task force Pakistan 2005-2006. Was stationed in Souda Bay as CPO in 2007. Some work South America 2008.
I have no problem with women in combat positions. I’ve known too many women who were stronger than many men I know. I’ve seen a female Israeli unit in the field when shit went down. I’ve also seen two female officers who had their shit together enough to pass one of the most physical and mentally demanding courses the Army offers.
If a female can pass the standards, then I see no problem with them in the SEALs, in Artillery, in the Infantry. I know many females who went through combat already for anyone to say that women don’t belong in combat. I also know a few who are in better shape than most of the Infantrymen I know, wanting to do their part.
Thank you for making Infantry a proper noun!
And yet again I fat-fingered the report button. My b.
You don’t have a problem with women in combat units? The Israelis do. At least, they have a problem with opening all ground combat to women. There are only a couple of units such as the Caracal that are open to women, and they’re primarily border guard units.
The Israelis also just closed armor to women. They tried it, it didn’t work. They weren’t strong enough.
This isn’t a game. I think it is wonderful everyone is so secure in their sexuality and all. Fantastic. But the reality is that very few women will make the cut, and then you have to look at the problem of integrating those few into the unit. Which is, as I understand it, one reason why the Israelis have only opened ground combat to women in a couple of units.
It’s that stupid tradition stuff again. That’s all. If a male has a problem with women taking on traditional male roles, that’s the male’s problem. As a society, we shame those who uphold certain traditions. You’re a sick homophobic bastard if you have a problem with a guy screwing another guy in the ass or two lesbians marrying and adopting a child. You are the worst kind of pig if you would seek to control a woman’s health or freedom by opposing abortion. You are a Bible-hugging, gun-loving, beer-chugging slob if you read the Bible, support the 2nd Amendment, and enjoy a cold one. You are a racist bastard if you fly a Confederate battle flag. You are a hater of the first order if you question the inclusion of transgenders in the military. And if you dare to think that America is the greatest country on earth, you are merely a misguided nationalist no better than the Nazis or fascists of yesteryear. This is the New America, the one that Barack promised and which he has delivered. Bring on the Combat Chicks!
Since the lines of women clamoring to join the combat arms specialties seem to be relatively short, one can only imagine that commanders intent will be to “guide” potential qualified applicants to apply.
The number of women rushing to apply for these positions is about the same as the number of gays rushing to enlist after DADT was repealed….
I am waiting on The Hairs fact and experienced biased opinion to enlighten the masses. I believe most of America watched G.I Jane and think it was based on scientific research.
http://www.jpost.com/Not-Just-News/Despite-some-progress-most-combat-roles-are-closed-to-women-in-the-IDF-412063
“In Israel, some 92 percent of army positions are open to women, including elite units in the Artillery Corps ‒ including in the “Sky Riders,” which operate unmanned aerial vehicles ‒ and combat roles in the Navy, Air Force, Home Front Command and Military Police in the West Bank. In addition to the Caracal Battalion, the IDF has just finished recruiting for the new mixed gender light-infantry battalion “Lions of the Jordan” ‒ another border patrol unit to be stationed along the eastern border of the Jordan Rift Valley.”
The ground combat role of women in the IDF is largely overstated. Then, from earlier in the article:
“Still, despite the continuing integration of women into the army, she does not always feel that commanders are prepared to handle the emotional differences in the way men and women see things and react to situations. ‘Because they don’t always understand us, it is hard to approach a commander sometimes. Sometimes I think we are even stronger than the men in missions, but I think it is still hard for them to accept us.'”
OK, which is it? Are women and men interchangeable?
Or does a commander need to be prepared to handle the emotional differences between men and women?
This Israeli soldier says it’s the latter. If that’s the case, I don’t see the value of trying to integrate the few women who can make the cut into combat units.
Knock yourselves out discussing the white knuckle grip I must have on what used to pass for my manhood, given I can’t overlook this unnecessary complication. But seriously, what do women bring to the force that is so beneficial that a commander should have to factor the emotional differences between men and women into his or her thinking?
Is an all male SEAL community really that unsatisfactory?