LACSD and “accidental” weapons discharges
The LA Times, whose habit is to blame guns for problems rather than the operator of a firearm, blames the gun for what they call accidental discharges among LA County sheriff deputies since they changed their duty weapons to a Smith and Wesson M&P9. After reading the reports of the weapons discharges, they seem more “negligent” than accidental. In every instance, the officers involved had their finger on the trigger before they intended to fire the weapon.
The M&P has obvious benefits. It is easier to shoot accurately, can be fired more reliably under stress and is a better fit for people with small hands. The switch was prompted in part by the threat of a lawsuit by women who had failed the Sheriff’s Academy. More recruits — including more women — are now passing the firearms test, and veteran deputies are also logging better scores at the firing range.
I don’t know anything about the M&P9, I’m not a S&W fan, but only because of my experience with them decades ago. I’m sure it’s a better pistol than when they tried to keep up with the demand of Models 27 & 29 during the Dirty Harry craze. I’m also not a Beretta fan – the gun that the Smith & Wesson replaced.
I do have a Glock 30, one of the guns that the Times blames for negligent discharges, but only because it has a couple of 25-round magazines for that day that the Zombie Epoc begins. When I carry it, the chamber is empty, because I don’t like a safety that is on the trigger – that really doesn’t prevent negligent discharges, like the three safeties on a 1911. Which is why I mostly carry my Colt Defender and not my Glock.
The article complains that the Beretta is too big for folks with little hands to operate;
People with small hands often have trouble flipping up the Beretta’s safety as they prepare to fire. The first shot requires 12 to 15 pounds of pressure on the trigger, forcing some to use two fingers and reducing shooting accuracy for many. Subsequent shots take about 4 pounds of pressure.
I haven’t heard any complaints about that from the military, that also uses the Beretta. In fact one of the reasons that military went to a Beretta was because the 1911-style handguns were supposedly too big for the ladies. While the 1911 was the Army’s service handgun, the lady MPs were issued the smaller .38 caliber revolvers for exactly that reason.
It sounds to me from the description above, that the Beretta is a double action semiautomatic because the initial trigger pull is so much more than follow-on shots. It seems to me that a solution to that would be leaving the gun cocked when the round is chambered – but still you’d have to keep your finger off the trigger until you’re aiming at your target. That doesn’t seem like something in the realm of possibility of the LA County deputies;
In 2012, there were 12 accidental discharges, none involving the M&P. In 2013, there were 18, eight of which were M&Ps. Of the 30 incidents in 2014, 22 involved M&Ps.
[…]
In one December incident, a sheriff’s deputy in Compton approached a car he thought might have been stolen. The occupants had already ran off. As he walked up with his M&P drawn to make sure there was no one else inside, he accidentally pulled the trigger.
The bullet hit the driver’s side door. There were bystanders nearby, but no one was injured.
A month earlier, a Lancaster deputy was following a driver he suspected of having a gun. When the man got out and walked toward the patrol car, the deputy took off his seat belt and was pulling out his M&P when he fired it into his own thigh.
[…]
In a Walnut-area house in January 2014, a deputy accidentally fired a round into the ceiling when a golf bag fell on his hand. Another deputy was in the room at the time.
When a deputy tripped over a stroller and fired a round through a wall in October 2014, there was another deputy nearby, with more deputies and a civilian elsewhere in the Huntington Park house.
Yeah, those are negligent discharges. It has nothing to do with “accidental” and everything to do with officers who have their fingers on the triggers when it’s not necessary. You can’t blame the gun for this one either, LA Times – it has to do with training and the operators.
The bigger question should be; why are they using 9 millimeter handguns? Do they plan to shoot a lot of Europeans or something?
Bg difference between accidental and negligent.
A lot of cops seem to think they are toys and really don’t seem to have a lot of respect for the weapons of death that they are.
Gun safety is always first and foremost in my mind whenever I handle a gun. Always pointed at something other than a human or even another house when I place it near me in bed.
And >>>>>KEEP YOUR DAMN FINGERS OFF THE TRIGGER<<<<<<<< unless you intend to kill someone or shoot something.
In other words, “keep your booger hook off the bang switch.”
That is all. Out.
Those shots fires sound like NEGLIGENT Discharges to me, something that was an INSTANT Article 15 overseas unless the guilty party was an Ossifer, then they’d get a Letter of Reprimand or somesuch.
Three tenths of one percent of deputies discharged their weapon accidentally. The solution is obvious. In an effort to get that number to absolute zero just stop giving them ammo.
Poly frames do not hold up to long term service. I hear claims all the time about the Glock that has 400 billion gazillion rounds through it and still work like they were new. No they do not and they never will. They are great personal protection weapons.
There is this revolutionary material that can be hardened and results in a weapon with a service life longer than the officers career. Its called STEEL.
Nothing wrong with a weapon chambered in 9mm. With the advances in ammo it is generally superior in overall performance.
Design a weapon made of steel like a Bersa Thunder chambered in 9mm or .40 and the damn thing will last forever. An idiot can take it apart and clean it.
No, this is about big money contracts and very little to do with the best service weapon. You can only train people so much, there will always be .003 of them that should never touch a weapon.
I never, ever, carry a weapon with an empty chamber. Most shootings are over in less than 5 seconds.
To be honest, if a department wants to cut training and discourage gun culture ala the NYPD, they would perhaps be better off with DAO revolvers.
They’re harder to ND, and if the typical NYPD spray & pray gunfight occurs, each officer has only 6 chances to hit innocent bystanders.
I have a Beretta Storm- it is perfectly feasible to carry in Condition 1, and avoid the heavy DA trigger pull.
So I do.
Sounds like they need to go back to the range and have someone yell “KEEP YOUR BOOGER HOOKS OFF THE BANG SWITCH!” in their ear every time the weapon clears leather.
This!
NDs are a training issue. If a cop cannot be trained to safely handle a weapon then they should not have a weapon.
on the article: “You don’t like 9mm, what do you prefer .22 maybe, or how about paint guns?”
Or just dumb things down further to squirt guns?
Get yer damned bugger hook off the bang switch. Problem solved, ill be sending a bill for my consulting charge. I promise it will be cheaper than buying all new service pistols for the LAPD, but not much
Damn it chief, posted while I was reading
Great minds think alike. 🙂
Tell you what, just charge them double and we can split the proceeds.
Sadly any number x zero is still zero…
I think you are all crazy looney-tunes.
The only gun to carry on your person should be the Buntline Special. The bullet has less distance to travel if you shoot yourself in the foot.
Sort of off topic but gun related: reading on a LEO forum awhile back where some officers knew one of their buds was deathly afraid of snakes. During roll call they put a dead snake on the floor board of his squad car and waited in hiding to see his reaction. They were not disappointed: he unloaded his Glock on the snake. Squad car dead. Chain of command highly pissed.
I was told by folks who knew, that back in the day the most accurate cop show on TV was Barney Miller. I see little has changed.
you sure it wasn’t Barney Fife? We had one on one dept I was on LOL
I like the Hill Street Blues episode where their ‘SWAT’ team did the annual sewer search.
When the two detectives let loose the stuffed crock on a motorized skateboard, the results were hilarious.
Has anybody seen an unloaded weapon go bang in a clearing barrel? Usually followed by the words Sir put your weapon on the ground step away from the clearing barrel so the MPs can talk to you.
1st Air Cav Grunts were notorious for disrespecting the yellow barrels. They delighted in emptying a full magazine to clear a weapon.
We ferried 6 M102a1 in a 2 carabous fight from Bien Hoa toward Tay Ninh. Made a stop in Cu Chi to swap too Chinooks and had a two hour wait. They would not even sell us beer at the Px without ration cards. (huh????) we went to the Philipine Px, no problem,,,,, We went in wearing cut off pants bandannas, salt-encrusted boots and M60 belts around our shoulders. They never batted an eye. We did not walk much, trucks would slam the brakes to pick us up.
My favorite for personal carry is Colt Pocketlite (380.) Magnesium frame
I had one ND. At a range. I was practicing draw for time and I punched a round into the ground in front of the target. It was me, it was not an accident. I had my finger on the trigger before my sights were on the target. I spent a lot of quality time practicing my draw with an empty weapon. NDs are a training issue.
Glad you didn’t hurt yourself or anyone else. Could always be worse.
When my department went from the Sig 229 to the Glock 22 we had zero ND’s. The reason is they drilled it into us when we first got the Sigs to keep your finger off the trigger and even more so when we got the Glocks!
There are solutions to this problem. It’s just that the gun fearing brass & politicians don’t like them:
-Quality training
-Foster a “gun culture” among officers
-Training
-Reduce “administrative” handling of guns, i.e., the number of times they are loaded/unloaded/unholstered/reholstered.
-More training
-Practice, and that includes the top brass
Oops, I forgot to add “Training” to the above!
Part of the DOJ report on Albuquerque PD and the shootings that have happened was that APD had too much of a “gun culture” and it needed to be changed.
Yeah, lots of the cops out here hit the range all the time but DOJ says it’s a problem. Because, you know, being good with the tools you have to carry is a bad thing.
So, don’t expect that to happen any time soon with any major department.
Can’t depress a m9 trigger with one finger? Then you shouldn’t be a cop. Holy shit what a weak sad husk.
M9 ergonomics are poor and has ridiculous features but it’s not causing people to fail at safety or accuracy tests. More shit shooters blaming the weapon as usual.
An accidental discharge applies to many things, some require a change of underwear and others require you to start a college fund and buy diapers for a few years. I agree that any unintended firing of a weapon is negligent and should be called exactly that.
I’ll admit to one negligent discharge and one resulting marriage.
Well, cato, you did the right thing!
@ 2/17 Air Cav.
43 years later, I agree with you.
Somebody forgot to “holster” their “bang stick”, I see… and congrats on the 43 years of marriage
Thanks, Doc.
I’ve been blessed.
FWIW, there needs to be a bit of a correction in this story. I served over 25 years in local law enforcement both as a reserve deputy and as a reserve officer, though not at the same time. The Sheriff’s Academy and deputies are part of LASD. The Police Academy and officers are part of LAPD. LAPD officers get their knickers in a knot when they’re accused of LAPD deputies’ silliness, and vice-versa. Back in my day we used wheel guns, and they were the most reliable shooting machines I’ve ever seen. Still, even back then, we were taught to keep the bugger picker off of the trigger until shootin’ time.
If I had of any of them gun things I’d practice to the point that “accidental discharge” would be anathema.
I figure “negligent” is the biggest hammer here.
On Jonn’s point about 9 MM… I figure that one could could down a 400 pound Black Bear with a shot in the eye with a .22. If not, it will make them pause long enough to target the other eye.
If you DO NOT know how a piece of equipment works, DO NOT operate it.
Or …
As someone here once said, “keep your bugger hook off the bang switch”.
PS: I maintain a wide vareity of firearms and over my years in the military and LE, I have NEVER had an ACCIDENTIAL discharge … because I have never forget the basic rules taught by the RSO.
….then you obviously never took a course offered by “Turd” Bolling at Ambassador Worldwide Protection Agency in Memphis, TN.
Usually, an accidental discharge occurs when you’re changing a baby boy’s diapers and you have his little feet in the air, prior to sliding the new diaper in place. Happens every time. If he has real good aim, he hits himself right in the middle of his forehead.
Or his father in the face!
Yep … Plumbing works!
Check!
Next life challenge …
Good thing you have no beard, Master Chief.
Ex-PH2 sez “Usually, an accidental discharge occurs when you’re changing a baby boy’s diapers …”
And THAT’S why a diaper should be placed over the sprinkler system before you start to replace the old one.
MANY years ago, the same problem occurred when the Salt Lake City Police Department switched from .38 caliber revolvers to 9 millimeter semi-automatics.
One officer became a quadriplegic when accidentally shot, and was assigned to a desk job and kept on the force.
Years later, he committed suicide by putting a plastic bag over his head.
If I remember correctly, I think the Salt Lake City Police Department, for a brief time, switched back to carrying .38 caliber revolvers, and then still later, returned to using the 9 millimeter semi-automatics.
When I worked for the Department of Defense Police, and later, for the Utah State Prison, our issued sidearms were .38 caliber revolvers.
Today, both of those agencies now issue their officers 9 millimeter semi-automatics.
I’ve had a gun go off without pulling the trigger only once in my life. It was during a defense live fire. The bolt locked forward and I couldn’t pull it back so I dropped the magazine and kept it pointed down range and then the chambered round cooked off.
The solution is obvious; do like most of the PDs do with the Glock and increase the trigger pull. Of course, that puts you back in the same situation that they had with the Beretta and the two finger firing technique (which, after 20+ years of running Army ranges and teaching pistol marksmanship, I’ve never once come across).
The other solution is the one recommended multiple times here, keep your finger off the trigger unless you want the pistol to go bang.
I don’t believe in the term, “accidental discharge.”
A firearm discharges in one of three ways.
Intentional
Negligent
Malfunction (includes breakage)
I had better alert a couple of my friends that carry M&P 9s that they can’t carry them around me, since they have a nasty habit of firing all by themselves!!! Some of my friends carry Glocks, so I had better warn them, also! Funny; but they have never mentioned anything about their sidearm having a propensity to jump out of the holster and start blasting. Theirs must be defective.
I, like Jonn, carry a Commander size 1911. I used to carry a Springfield XDm .40, but it was too bulky in the Summer months, and since I have always liked the 1911, I decided to go that route. Love it. Talking with a deputy sheriff, in my county, last week, he carries a Glock, so I better warn him it could go off all by itself!
When I carry, I’m packing either my 1911 or my .357 revolver, this I feel like I know they won’t fire unless the hammer is back and my finger is on the trigger. Just how panicky do some LEO’s get these days?
Amen!
My agency carried Glock 22’s and to my knowledge we haven’t had a problem with ND’s. Sounds like this agency recently switched weapons and has familiarity issues that need to be resolved by training.
On the 9mm, my agency is switching to an FN 9mm based on new FBI testing that showed new 9mm is pretty close to .40 and .45 performance in ballistic gelatin (yeah I know). Supposedly we dug a bunch of our .40’s out of bodies and found they didn’t expand reliably. Switching to a .40 load caused reliability problems so they decided to switch calibers/weapons outright.
The M9 was/is a disaster weapon. While it never failed me in theater, it was too big, too fat-handled, and too heavy to be of much real use. I could hang wall pictures easily with it, and it was really really hard to hurt yourself with it, but that’s about it. Holsters had to be larger, more il-fitting. I have small(ish) hands, and I never felt comfortable gripping it. My 1911? No prob. ever. Even given the ancient ones the Guard had to use with bent barrels and rusty firing pins. (That’s a joke, son. Partially).
I won’t carry a G-19 chambered/red condition because I still don’t trust the trigger thing. AT ALL. Nothing to do with training or conditioning- there HAVE been issues of discharges holstering them. A nice, simple, ambi rocker switch for a safety, and that would settle it for good.
Ok, I have to get this off my mind. The Glock 30 and the M&P 9 suck as a duty weapon for standard issue to Law Enforcement. It is simply stupid to issue them as the service weapon. If you have never fired either one of them let me enlighten you. Go pick up a brick, wrap your hand around it and tell me how that feels to hold. The Glock gets 10 rounds of 45 ACP in the magazine by using a nearly side by side double stack of rounds. The grip is huge. That allows them to make the grip shorter….the last thing you want when firing a 45 ACP. Short grip, less recoil management. The slide alone weighs more than most poly 9mm compacts. Stuff 10 rounds of 45 ACP in it and you are holding the weight equivalent to a full size 1911 with none of the advantages that come with that weapon. I am 6’3″ and 220 (there about), I have large hands. I would not want to walk around all day with that brick strapped to my ass. It is just stupid to think that anyone smaller than me would. Of course you can change the back strap and make the grip 1/4 of an inch smaller as if that will make the brick not a brick. Now let me talk about the ‘knock down’ power myth. No weapon will have any more knock down power than the recoil felt when the trigger is pulled. If you want to knock someone down with a weapon…use a bat. Yes recoil buffers can spread the recoil out so you dont feel one sudden jerk, but the force of recoil is equivalent to the force of impact. Issuing these big bulky bricks when the majority of people can not manage their mass is the same as saying all officers should have the same size shoes. I dont care how well made the shoe is, it will not fit everyone, or in this case most everyone. Lets look at the manual safety on these weapons. Oh….we can’t because… Read more »
I’m no expert, but I do like to shoot stuff, and you just hit every nail on the head. I have often heard glocktards talking about how their ballistic tupperware is the epitome of the fighting pistol, and they all claim as proof the wide use of Glocks by LE. My answer to that is obvious: Glocks aren’t popular because they’re good, they’re popular because they’re CHEAP, and you get what you pay for.
I’m a 1911 guy myself. My open-carry and nightstand guns are GI-size 1911s (San Diego County is slow-rolling CCW permits despite the court’s order). I’ve shot lots of other designs. I like CZs, and the Springfield XD .45 is the only polymer frame I like (much more comfortable grip than any Glock, safer too), and old-school S&W wheelguns are fun. I feel that if you absolutely have to have a 9mm, the Browning HiPower is the way to go. My experience with a Beretta 92 was unimpressive. I purely hate Glocks. Their ergonomics suck and they have no real safety to speak of (that gay-ass trigger thing doesn’t count)–yeah, I know *YOU* are the safety, that’s just lazy design. My 1911 rides the holster with a round chambered and the safety engaged. The safety positively locks the hammer while engaged, and is easily and positively disengaged during the draw, presenting with a smooth SA trigger pull that doesn’t send your first shot wild. Between that, the grip safety, and the spring-retained firing pin, that weapon will not launch lead until I consciously decide to do so.
If your cops need a dumbed-down pistol like a Glock, maybe they shouldn’t be carrying in the first place.
I’d have to say the 1911 is one of the safest handguns ever created. Unless you find yourself on the receiving end. Only problem I have with mine is that I let the GF shoot it Saturday and she won’t give it back! I guess I’ll be gun shopping later hehehe
I’m a female with medium size, fairly strong hands. I’ve shot revolvers and pistols, from .22 up to .45. I’ve shot Sigs, S&W, Glock, Springfield, and Auto Ordnance. I bought a Glock .40 because I heard what a kick-ass gun it was. It was a lousy shooter for all the reasons given above, and very easy to care for. I went back to an Auto Ordnance 1911 .45, which I’m lethal with, and have a terrible time trying to break down and put back together again. But I do luv me some 1911, and always will, so I guess I will learn how to take care of it — eventually. *sigh*
PN, if I may be of assistance, there is an alternative takedown method for the 1911 that some find easier. Grab the front end of the slide (forward cocking serrations help but are not required) and push it out of battery until the slide release lines up with its takedown notch, then pull the slide release/takedown pin. The barrel group can now be removed from the frame without having to risk launching the spring plunger across the room. Once it’s off, pull out the guide rod, which also decompresses the recoil spring. The spring, plunger, and bushing will now be much more manageable.
Thank you for that information! I intend to try that tonight and see if it helps! 😀
For the record, I do not hate Glocks. They are a good weapon for personal protection and light duty. So is a Taurus at half the cost.
Glock review. This is full of great Glock info.
So all of SOCOM got conned by Glock into buy their weapons. CAG, the guys who had more organizational experience running 1911s than anybody, got conned into dumping the 1911 platform in the middle of a war to go to Glocks. Or is it the off chance that maybe the 1911 as awesome of a platform it is, is outdated.
Good point. There is a distinct difference between SOCOM and the duties of a LEO. Training requirements are from two completely different worlds. Fairly sure SOCOM does not have 5’4″ 120 lb women making up 20% of its force.
If I gave the impression that I would issue a 1911 to LEO’s let me correct that now. I would not. 1911 is a great weapon, it is dependent on the user to maintain it properly and is less forgiving to the user that does not maintain it than a Glock or any other half plastic gun.
Striker fired weapons without a manual safety should never be issued to civilian law enforcement. I personally would issue a weapon much like the Bersa Thunder but chambered in 9mm.
All steel, simple to clean, very forgiving, compact, three safety levels, minimum of parts, and very easy to have worked on. Lastly they are very inexpensive to make.
JMHO
The four rules of gun safety:
1. Keep your finger off the trigger.
2. Keep your fucking finger off the trigger.
3. Keep your finger off the fucking trigger.
4. Keep your fucking finger off the fucking trigger.
1.) Index until you want to fire the weapon.
2.) Anticipate — and learn to control — the reactions to the adrenaline rush. If you can’t do that, get a desk job.
Interesting, their claims about small hand size, because I actually have very small hands (unlike the rest of me). And two of my favorite handguns are my Remington 1911 (chambered in .45 ACP) and my Beretta PX4 Storm (9 mil).
I like the 1911’s weight because it helps soak up some of the recoil which I otherwise might not care for, and the Storm, well, hardly worth mentioning.
OT, but not by much: Drudge says Colt has filed Chapter 11 Bankruptcy. http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/gunmaker-colt-goes-bankrupt-again_971736.html
Surprised because guns and ammo are about the only industries thriving under Obama.