Army considers cyber-warriors without traditional combat training
Andy11M sends us a link from the UK’s Telegraph which reports that the Army is considering the exemption from traditional combat training for the folks they hire with internet skills to fight against cyber terrorism;
Lt Gen Robert Brown said the US Army had to recruit people who were not typical candidates for a military career if it was to attract the right skills to wage cyber war.
The American military is trying to build up expertise in cyber warfare amid increasing concern about attacks or espionage by states including Russia, Iran, China or North Korea.
[…]
Lt Gen Brown told a briefing of the New America Foundation: “For cyber, this must include individuals who anticipate and adapt to the rapid pace of innovation in the cyber world and thrive in its inherent ambiguity. Many who have these skills are not natural candidates for a military career.
“They grew up on Google and wear ponytails. We need to look at ways to bring them into the Army without necessarily going through the same training procedures as our combat troops.”
Yeah, that makes no sense. It’s called “basic” training for a reason. If they want a bunch of people with pony tails and metallica T-shirts, they should just hire contractors. The British Army says that they’re considering hiring folks who have been arrested for hacking “as long as they pass security vetting.” They’re criminals – and they’re bad at being criminals – they were caught and arrested. They shouldn’t pass security vetting, FFS.
Nothing like clearing the way for a bunch of Edward Snowdens. Snowden couldn’t pass basic training either.
Basic training is what makes us a band of brothers – if someone doesn’t have the personal commitment to finish basic training, they won’t have the commitment to the ideals and values of national service.
Category: Army News
Hey, while you’re at it, give them all rank too. Make them LTs or Captains for starters. Then, when they’re bored and want to quit, just promote them so they’ll stick around…
We already do that…its called direct commissioning lol. I know you were talking about this…
Hey, Big Army, there’s an E-8 currently at Fort Meade who would make an excellent top kick for a computer nerd basic training company.
Um………..huh. So, basically, what they want to do is put civilians in uniform without them actually having to earn the uniform. Yeah, we already deal with those types; they’re called posers and valor thieves.
Don’t forget to get them a Cyber Warfare Medal, cuz’ you know cyber war is just as stressful as actual combat
As is being a movie star according to Tom Cruise.
Or Val Kilmer.
http://www.capveterans.com/national_veterans_memorials_protection/id250.html
Im sure they already caught the ptsd just thinking about wearing a uniform
I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of cyber warfare. In many ways a cyber attack can be much more devastating than a kinetic attack.
As far as the security clearance issue goes, having a criminal record is not always indicative of not being trustworthy or worthy of a clearance. In fact I would argue its just the opposite. The squeaky clean people are the ones that worry me the most.
I do not agree that they should be allowed to skip basic training entirely however. At a minimum they should have to go through the equivalent of what used to be the warrior transition course for Air Force/Navy personnel.
Brother, I went through that course and it was a joke. I didn’t learn ANYTHING about the Army going through that. I learned everything during AIT (as a MOS-T) and then when I got to my first unit. Also, they expected that we already knew a lot of military jargon and how to conduct ourselves as military personnel. Put a civilian off the street through that same thing and they won’t cut it at all. They NEED basic training. It’s vital to the development and discipline of a Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine.
I understand what they’re saying, but that’s for the Intel Community. The Army fights wars, for fuck’s sake. We’re the ones who go in, kick down doors, and shoot shitheads. Sure, there are the occasional drone operator, but if the fecal matter hits the air circulation device, they can pick up a rifle and not die.
Cyber warfare is not the domain of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps. We are the ones who protect the physical body of the United States. It’s the NSA, CIA, and other alphabet soups that protect the U.S. from electronic and criminal threats.
I was a 98C in the Army from 92-97. I worked with the No Such Agency during most of that, and I had to pass through BCT just like everybody else.
And for the record, I am also completely against letting people wear the uniform without going through Basic. It’s more than learning which end of the rifle to point downrange. It’s learning discipline, teamwork, and general military bearing. John’s got the right of it. If that’s what they want, hire DA or DoD civilians. But don’t put them in uniform unless they’ve earned it.
I disagree. When cyber drifts into actions that have real, kinetic impact which can be considered act of war? Those should be executed by uniformed service members who are executing duly authorized orders passed down the chain of command. We have enough problems with war being executed by civilians, we should not expand that authority.
implying that civilian agencies do not have a chain of command up to the National Command level? Obviously the agency I worked for after I got out must be different than the ones to whom you are referring.
Actually I’m thinking Daniel was more referring to something we like to call the law of armed conflict and the legalities of who can and cannot conduct war. Guy/Gal in uniform pulling the cyber trigger = legal, civilian or contractor pulling the cyber trigger = illegal and could be considered an unlawful combatant.
Action and reaction are two separate things. If we initiate a cyber attack, that’s one thing. If a cyberpunk reacts to an attack, that requires no authorization or order.
Flagwaver, that would depend on the nature of the action(s) taken by said non-uniformed cyberpunk. Investigating the attack, incident response to protect/bring back up the system(s)/network(s), NO issues happens everyday. What is generally referred to as ‘hackback” or retaliation hacking could/would still be pretty dicey and a NO go in the opinion of most JAG circles. Broken down more basically, actions on a DoD network (if with in the job authority) , no issues. Action(s) outside of DoD but inside the US Gov, only with authorization from the affected Agency/Department. Action(s) on systems outside the DoD/US Gov, not with out being tasked/assigned to some LEO joint task force and then only with court orders, warrents and such. Action(s) outside both DoD/US Gov networks and US systems, NOT with out violating several National, International laws. (Some exceptions would apply but most of them relate to being assigned to an International LEO task force, like above, but LEO rules would still apply).
YA got that right, these cyber guys belong someplace other than in a uniform. A security agency is better suited to handle freelancers. Think Air America pilots… not the real ones…the Hollywood ones! I wouldn’t want these guys by me in a uniform with no training.
Yep, I’m with you John. But not contractors; civilians. That goes for many of the spook jobs that are shore-based, especially us linguists. Our customer wants very experienced people (6+ years on the poz), but on the Navy side, once you make CPO, chances are you are not going to be manning the poz, you are Chiefing 🙂 And that can happy very quickly in the Navy. Its a touchy subject, heh heh.
I thought we were downsizing the military now that things are over with in Iraq and Afghanistan? So now we have time to experiment with new and shiny ideas?
This isn’t a new idea. The military was lacking the cyber threat and in today’s world most countries are fighting their battles with keyboards not 2,000 bombs.
I’m kind of confused here. We bring people “into the Army” all the time without sending them to basic… They’re called DA civilians. We even deploy some of them and give them pea-shooters. They have their own system of awards, evaluations, regulations, retirement, etc. Some of them are really quite amazing at what they do since they don’t have to “up or out” and they can stay in one place their entire career. Seems like this would be a perfect fit for cyber people… not sure why they would have to wear a green suit.
So a combat arms Soldier with multiple tours and extensive training (Ranger School, etc) or a support Soldier with extensive experience at doing their job right and why that is so important could get passed over for promotion and potentially end up taking orders from some limp-dick basement dweller of questionable hygiene who decorated his workspace with sexually-themed pictures of female Japanese cartoon characters and doesn’t even know that the word “discipline” exists in the English language? Between the thought of somebody like that possibly having authority over people and the late unpleasantness with alleged-1SGT She-Troll, how in the name of God’s balls are we going to survive if Burkina Faso, Kiribati, or Luxembourg decide to challenge our superpower status, much less the Chinese or Russians?
Yea no offense but a cyber warrior is much harder to replace than an 11B. Keyboards can do much more damage than almost any kinetic attack.
Until the network goes down because a butterfly flapped its wings in the Amazon and a rain drop hits a telephone pole in Papua New Guinea.
I lost count of the amount of times SIPR, NIPR, Centrix went down on my FOB in Afghanistan.
When things went down, the commo guys weren’t doing anything and couldn’t because their primary weapon wasn’t functioning.
Technology is a terrible and wonderful thing. We rely far too heavily on it, which has caused us to be overly dependent on it and if it doesn’t work, “we” can’t function.
Not denying that cyberwarfare is a vital capability, just saying that this particular proposal is horseshit.
Let me see that keyboard commando seize and hold ground. Or, stop the other side from doing same, as in prevent, not annoy.
Right. Thought so.
I was an 11B, and I scored an 96 on the ASVAB(130GT). Not all of us 11Bs are “dunces.” I’ll end my comment at that. 🙂
This is a specialty close to that of being a fighter pilot. So, put them through ROTC. They get all the military bearing, without all of the in-your-face Drill Sergeanty goodness.
ACK, bite your tongue, fighter pilots indeed, that means Officer Corps(at least in the AF/Navy). Sorry but we are already too top heavy. The uber skilled folks only get that way only through years of experience and training. Which means, you would be losing the person you just invested a massive amount of time in to Command/Leadership duties at just the point they really become useful. I’ll make an exception in the case of warrant officers, but since the AF doesn’t have them, the next best case is enlisted and that by the time of getting really good they would be mid level NCOs.
And they will probably pay them more as well.
Great incentive to the troops who have earned their rank and pay.
Way to go Army!
If I was not sane, I would wonder if SGM Jack Tilley was still around.
I’ll wade into this one as someone who was previously intel and an ops planner in an AD AF cyber unit. It is imperative that military folks who man these units go through basic for the simple reason of learning discipline and teamwork. Cyber operations are rarely, if ever, performed in a vacuum, but are usually part of a larger op that may include psyops and/or deception operations, not to mention kinetic. Geekers need to understand the mission, and have the discipline and mentality to work as a piece of part of a larger op. They are no longer loners in mommy’s basement tweaked on Mt. Dew and Cheeto’s.
Right there with yah Fish. Spent most if not all of my AF career in cyber (we probably even know some of the same people, the community isn’t that big). ALL uniformed personnel need to go through BMT (basic military training) if nothing else then to provide a common grounding/baseline in the realities of our chosen profession. The other reason is that there is a way of thinking about problems that you just don’t get anywhere else. Its the frame of reference. Worked with all branches and civilians during my time in and can say as smart as some of the civilians where unless they were former military they just didn’t have the right mindset/frame of reference. This is akin to why all Marine pilots must go through infantry school. Besides the fact that every Marine is a rifleman, this common level of training helps make them better at doing their job, especially in the CAS mission role.
As Isnala said upthread, LOAC may prevent civvies from being organized operators within a DOD agency. In my unit, once ops were started, everything was locked down and the civvies were locked out, with the exception of a couple that were needed for technical expertise and maintenance. It was military chain of command with positive control and reporting to theater commander.
Exactly the point I was trying to make above Fish. After your comment above, we most defiantly know some people in common. Hell we may even know or at least know of each other 🙂
If you want to chat off thread ask John and he can give you my e-mail.
-Ish
So if they don’t have to do basic because they aren’t combat troops, does this mean we can drop that requirement for the rest of the intel guys? What about cooks, clerks, supply, mechanics, aw hell, from now on only 11 series need basic training
Cyber isn’t necessarily intel. They may overlap but they are two different fields with different responsibilities and schools.
I read LTG Brown’s comments a few months back. I’m not so certain that he is advocating no basic training as everyone here seems to suggest.
The open ended question that he was asking was, “what is the appropriate type/structure of initial entry and follow on training for these types of individuals?”
Remember that a good portion of the basic training requirements are mandated by law, and who’s to say that these basement dwelling pony tail wearing hackers don’t want some type of traditional basic training type experience? They just might not want all the other BS that goes along after.
As to if many of these folks would be better placed in civilian positions in the alphabet soup agencies, remember that they have their “basic training” also. It doesn’t look the same, but it serves the same purpose of placing organization about self and imparting a base level of skills.
FWIW, I actually believe that all of the individuals who work in the IC should be members of the reserve component and brought on active duty when they are operating in support of combat operations.
I have to throw the BS flag here Luddite4Change. Almost all of the three letter IC agencies have military Active Duty, Reserve, and Guard members already embedded within them. The reason is to support active operations (tactical and strategic). Many of them spend a tour or two then rotate out. Some decide they like their job at that particular agency so much they decide not to re-up and go Civilian. As Seeburn said, this would the correct option for individuals who want to serve their country in cyber but not join the military. The military is more than any one job, AFSC/MOS/RATE, etc. it is a mindset, a way of life and the proper indoctrination into said mindset/way of life begins with BMT. On the other hand there are plenty of civilians in those agencies that have no business wearing a uniform, as smart and brilliant as they just would not function correctly in uniform. If you haven’t worked in one of the ICs you may not understand but take my word for it, there are some really smart people out there that can do some amazing things but when it comes down to it, they just don’t belong in uniform. Again it has to do with the mindset/way of life thing. If you haven’t served you couldn’t fully understand. But it begins with the fact that even though I may have a cyber AFSC/MOS/Rate, at any time the powers that be could decide it would be more valuable to the defense of the country to pick up a rifle and head out. Would I have been happy about it had it happened, not one bit, would I have gone and done the mission to the best of my ability and training anyway, YUP! If called upon, would I have willing put my life on the line in the defense of the USA, the answer again it YES. That’s why I enlisted/joined up. Its part of the unlimited liability clause, i.e. all military members voluntarily said “I am willing to risk life and limb in the defense of the USA”.… Read more »
Isnala,
I’m not sure what you are calling the BS flag on.
I’m not saying that uniformed cyber folks shouldn’t go to basic, nor is that the the question that the General asked. What he throws out there is what is the appropriate mechanism for recruiting, and training these folks in uniform (I’ll make the assumption that we need some, especially when we are talking about offensive cyber activities that can have kinetic effects). It’s a valid question, some of which is constrained by law.
This is just one facet of how do we look at our personnel and training systems, which is focused on an industrial age foundation.
I’ve got multiple years in those IC agencies also. They did rely on the uniformed folks you highlight to carry the depolyment load at the start of the conflict, but they rapidly expended that supply as requirements increased over time leading to a greater reliance on the agencies civilian workforce to carry the load (my agency’s ratio for deployed personnel was 85/15 civ/Mil at one point).
My belief is that IC members who deploy to combat area need to be members of the reserve components so that 1.) We aren’t paying the equivalent of $250K a year to a GG12/13 when we should be paying the equivalent of an O3-5, and 2.) there needs to be no doubt as to their international legal status while perfroming duties in support of military operations. Drone strikes are an excellent example of the murky legal area confronting IC folks serving in support of combat ops, but not the only one (see my comment on kinetic cyber above).
There is a much greater need for cyber folks than just on the uniformed DOD side, but there is a requirement for some some uniformed folks (especially when we are getting into the realm of offensive activities).
The point I was calling BS is the ALL IC civilians need to be Guard/Reserve. There are some great Gov Civilians in those agencies that have no business in uniform. Those same people also don’t tend to be called on to deploy. But you are right we need all the cyber people we can get, both in and out of uniform.
In your last post I’m not sure if you looked at the civilian pay scales lately but GS 12/13s might clear just above 100K (depending on locality pay), but that is a far cry from 250K.
You are correct as to the pay scale for GG 12/13 while in CONUS working a 40 hour a week.
But, once you deploy them to a combat zone things start to add up in a hurry. Danger Pay is 35% of base pay, hardship pay is another 35% of base, and this is before they even start accumulating any overtime.
It was not uncommon for folks to rack up $125K for a six month tour. It was also not uncommon for individuals to defer part of their pay into the next year for either tax purposes or to stay under the pay cap.
Needless to say, it was rarely a problem getting volunteers (especially as most of post 9/11 hires were single or w/o families at the time). That started to change as I was leaving as hiring had slowed and the formerly single people now had families and most had deployed multiple times.
So, I gotta plan big Army that may scare you a bit
Open these MOS you want for cyber to the National Guard and Reserves
I know plenty of guys in Signal/MI Units that would love this training in my own state guard but we have been told that it does not exist for the Reserve/NG side of the house yet.
Pulling John Q. off the street with no basic training would make me pull my hair out as a NCO. Look into your ranks before you put even more toxic men and woman in them.
God knows I have enough problems keeping my current squad from fucking up and they have been through Basic
Already in the works Watchdogonezero. Change takes time, and while I have been out of the loop since my retirement, last joint doctrine I saw called for Guard/Reserve units to assist with cyber. Heck the AF has already been using them in our cyber unit construct for years.
Ill be retired by the time they get it up and running at this rate Isnala, until then keep brushing up on the skills needed for the fight at hand
We are just now getting out of the tools to make the tools phase. Once the school houses are fully up and running, (last heard was most should be up by now), then things will start to shift in manpower numbers. Got to remember manning is a three years in advance exercise. Thankfully a lot of smart people have been working on this problem for a few years already.
I think what the good general was trying to say with out saying it is,
THe Hacker nerds don’t stand a prayer of passing a PT test in Basic. So lets wave that part of it for them. After all they would never have to do anything more risky than drink red bull and worry about carpel tunnel.
Cyber warfare is real, we all just had a small taste of what hostile nation can do. I would hate to think some kid hyped up on red bull and cupcakes with no self discipline was all the stood between peace and the exchange of nukes
Guys and Girls,
I know that a lot of you are former military and have been out of the loop for a few years so that’s why I’m writing this.
The US Army already has a set of Cyber MOS’. They come through the course that I teach (SLC, ANCOC… whatever you want to call it). They are ridiculously smart. They are the epitome of computer nerd. Everyone of them is smart and they won’t let you forget that. They go through a TON of testing and training in order to even become Cyber people. After that, depending on what they want to do and are good at… they will get put into their positions. As I understand it, there are a few different positions. There are the regular network security people, the test people, and the true hackers that can do all the cool guy stuff we see in movies. Everything they do is TS/SCI Talent Keyhole, D, G, E… type stuff (those are real clearances by the way). They don’t get to talk about the extent of their work because our classrooms are only accredited up to the TS level but from what we know, they are some bad m-fers that we are lucky to have on our side. A ton of them work for NSA but there is a new Cyber Brigade that got stood up last year operating now.
I guess my point is, the General obviously hasn’t been briefed on our current capabilities. My other point is this: If you think ground pounding is the sole purpose of the US Army then you need to take a step back and do some research. To win wars we have to have people that support the warfighter. Some of those people need to be dorks, and that’s ok with me.
Another Duffleblog story that isn’t fiction.
What a disaster waiting to happen. If this occurs kiss our military goodbye because it will filter elsewhere and now we have another worthless government organization without results.
Trust me Fat this idea has no legs and while I won’t question the General’s intelligence, I’m pretty sure he’s not working with a full intel set. Any specialised field is going to have issues with manning, especially at the outset as the branches learn how to recruit, train, and weed out the cream from the chaf. Its no different in principle to standing up a new special forces program, just a different set of requirements and training emphasis is all.
The thing is we HAVE to have some cyber people in uniform. As has already been mentioned but i want to emphasis it has to do with who can legally attack another country (IE the military and the military only under US code and then who can steal shit, intel which is another title under us code. there is some overlap but civilians CANNOT attack other nations and cyber attack is the way things are going) and only member of the military can do that. As far as thinking syber isn’t a military function and can’t do a lot of damage, well recent experiences both real world and in training show different. Some of the things they can do to our shit at NTC etc are scary as hell and can/will kill people in combat if we don’t recognize it (i won’t get into specifics but to the person saying cyber can’t take ground well cyber is getting damn close).
I am not sure that not sending them though any basic is a good idea however i think the AMEDD officer (for doctors, nurses vets etc, boh ROTC/USMA/OCS and direct commission) program is a good idea, basically a 3-4 week program teaching basics of the military, a little field time and rile qual etc might be a good way to go. We do have to get good quality people for this area into uniform and it is a very specific skill set that unfortunately most members of the military do not have or want for that matter. Hell MI was asked to give up officers for the new cyber MOS and most who apply did not even come close to meeting the very baseline needs.
Redleg Jo, while I agree inpart, I’m gonna have to dissagree in part. Part of the reason direct assessions can work with people like doctors and nurses is because under LOAC they are mostly non combatants (self defense asside). As you said cyber’s capabilities are growing and while done mostly remotly, it is non the less combat. For this reason alone direct assessions won’t work. Also most if not all direct assessions are for Officier types. As I’ve said above enlisted (possibly) warrant officers are the route we need to go for the bulk of the cyber forces, especially when we take into account the numbers we need in order to be successful.
I personally think that these folks should be DA civilians. However, the rationale for this is that as uniformed members they can be enlisted for a specific term of service and be subject to the UCMJ. DA civilians can quit any time.
The basic problem is recruiting. We are having problems finding enough Soldiers as it is and these people are heavily recruited by Google, Apple, etc.. The Army will have to develop a number of incentives to attract them. Within reason you can get anyone into enoughh shape to meet minimum standards. You cant really make them more intelligent.
We do this now with doctors- look at the Boots on the Ground program where weput docs through a very short trainjng program anddeployed them for 90 days.
As far as combat skills, the rationale is that these troops will probably never actually deploy, and if they do it will be to a permissive area. That said, they are being recruited for a different set of skills. If they can disrupt an adversay to the point that we don’t have t fight maybe we dont need them to pass a PT test.
Why not just let the Air Force do it all? Think of air support. We want to have an organic capabilith that can be dedicated to the Land Component without depending on a support relationship.
While you bring up a few salient points, the main issue, the way I see it, is discipline.
We live in an entitled society and many of these “prospective” folks will not mesh well with being told what to do, how to do it and when to do it.
The “combat training”, for what it is worth these days, may not have the right tenets for this population, but it will teach them cohesion, teamwork and mental toughness (to a degree).
You are exactly right- discipline is tne major reason they want tnese occuptions to be military rather than civilian or contractor (remember Snowden?)
this career field will struggle with what MI has for years- how do you take a brilliant kid, encourage him or her to think outside the box, and expect them to comply with Army discipline (remember Manning?)
Another parallel is in SOF- specifically SF and Psyops. If you select people for their ability to deal with ambiguity then train them in the finer points of unconventional warfare to include subversion and insurgency, dont be surprised when they require a different kind of leadership.
What’s wrong with contractors doing the work? They already do. Yeah, Snowden leaked a bunch of stuff and made contractors look bad. However, I’m pretty sure Ana Montes, Aldrich Ames, and Jonathan Pollard were all federal employees. Should be ban federal employees for work because they’ve had bad apples too?
to all who make rude remarks fuck you when you hacked and all your data is gone to the enemy then who will you want in there with or without bct and bct is Combat Training to all understand combat cyberunits are on computer why the fuck should you have to waste 2 months for they dont have guns either so just beacuse they rank faster than you and dont have to do basic just remember were you intel come from before anyone opens there fucking mouth again
Can we at least teach them how to use a fucking comma? Please!
P.S. – please tell Chevy hello for me. Glad to see he has found, um, companionship. How’s his valve?