About That Upcoming African “Feelgood” Exercise
I’m sure everyone’s heard by now that the US is sending troops to “help fight the West Africa Ebola outbreak” (or words to that effect). I’m equally sure many have mixed feelings about doing this.
I think that’s a manifestly bad idea. And, contrary to this tool’s ridiculous verbal diarrhea, the reason I think the operation is ill-advised IS NOT because it would help (as he put it) “brown or black people”.
IMO, it’s an undertaking that can do little to help. But it could well result in bringing a previously-unknown pestilence to this hemisphere – like the Europeans did when they brought smallpox to the Americas, or when syphilis was introduced to Europe by those returning from the Americas. Ask Native Americans and Europeans/Asians how those introductions of previously-unknown, untreatable, and incurable diseases went.
The remainder of this article will discuss the reasons I feel this “we gotta do something to make ourselves feel good” adventure is a serious mistake. Feel free to disagree.
But you might want to read what follows, anyway.
1. We simply don’t know that much about Ebola and other Filoviridae.
Ebola belongs to a type of viruses called filoviruses. They’re so named because they’re filament-shaped. These viruses collectively form the viral family Filoviridae.
Even today, we don’t know much about them. The first filovirus genus to be discovered – Marburg – was discovered in 1967. Ebola was isolated next, in 1976. The third genus, Cuevavirus (with a single known species), was isolated in 2010. At present, these seem to be the only three genera of Filovirudae to have been discovered.
Of these three Filovirudae genera, there are at present eight species for which data is available. Of those eight, six (both known Marburg species and four of the five known Ebola species) are known to cause fatal illnesses in humans. One Ebola species appears to infect humans without causing serious illness. The ability of Cuevavirus species to infect humans is currently unknown.
In short: we just don’t know very much about Ebola and its close relatives. Fifty years ago, we didn’t even know the entire Family existed. Hell, the likely natural reservoir of filoviruses – bats – was only recently identified in 2009, or over 40 years after the first filovirus was isolated. And scientists aren’t yet absolutely positive that bats are the natural reservoir.
2. Ebola is both deadly and incurable.
There is no known cure for Ebola and other filovirus diseases. An infected person either gets well or dies. Other than provide supportive care, medical science can’t do a damn thing for them.
Let me restate that: there is no cure for Ebola. You get it, you are screwed. You’ve got a damn good chance of dying – and it’s a very horrible kind of death. (I’ll spare everybody the details here; descriptions of the disease’s progression are readily available on the Internet. Look them up if you have a fascination with the grotesque.)
Yes, there is an experimental serum – Zmapp – that has shown some promise. It was used to treat two American healthcare workers who contracted the disease while treating Ebola patients during the recent outbreak.
Both survived, albeit only after a long and serious illness. Unfortunately, that serum is experimental – so that means it’s produced in a lab environment. It currently takes at least one week to produce the raw materials (grown in tobacco leaves) needed for a single dose of the serum; more time is required to produce the serum afterwards.
There are literally thousands of unfortunate individuals in the current outbreak who are currently infected. You do the math.
The recent Ebola outbreak in West Africa is a variant of the Ebola Zaire species. If there is any one filovirus species that qualifies as “worst of them all”, Ebola Zaire is it. It has the highest demonstrated fatality rate – up to 90% in some outbreaks. In the present outbreak, it seems to be running about 50% lethal – meaning around half of those who get it, die. Horribly. In a period of about 2-3 weeks.
Oh, and those who do recover remain carriers of the virus for weeks after they recover (it’s been isolated in the semen of recovered male patients more than 80 days after clinical recovery, and sexual transmission has been documented as late as 7 weeks after clinical recovery). Many have severe health problems afterwards as well. So it’s not exactly “all good” afterwards for those who do recover, either.
“Sobering” doesn’t begin to describe the prospects.
3. There is no vaccine.
Unlike other serious diseases we’ve dealt with in the recent past that were both communicable and highly lethal, there also is no vaccine for Ebola that provides someone exposed to the virus with immunity to the disease. Instead, one must depend solely on avoiding exposure to avoid becoming a casualty.
This means protective gear. And unlike AIDS and other diseases people have heard about, we’re not talking the standard “gloves and masks” protection being anywhere near sufficient.
Recommended protection measures and protocols are discussed here; details regarding the equipment required can be found here. And while exposure to of bodily fluids of an infected person is thought to be the primary means of infection, aerosol infection has not been definitively ruled out (more about this later). So, yeah – most if not all of those measures are required.
That’s what’s required for someone working with anyone who’s infected with Ebola.
Wonder what working in that gear is like? From the description above (and accounts I’ve read), I get the impression that wearing that kind of protective gear is maybe 2 steps away from working in full MOPP-4. I could be wrong.
You tell me people won’t start cutting corners when they get tired. Or making mistakes brought on by fatigue and discomfort.
4. We don’t know definitively that Ebola is not transmissible via airborne droplets – like the common cold or flu.
It is currently believed that Ebola is primarily transmitted by direct contact with contaminated bodily fluids from an infected person. (Per the WHO, sweat is among the bodily fluids believed to be a means of transmitting the virus.) Contact with objects contaminated with the virus is a secondary means of transmission, as is sexual activity.
However, the jury is still out on whether or not airborne droplet transmission is a means of transmission. And based on one known past incident, there is substantial evidence that some forms of the Ebola virus indeed are transmitted in that manner.
Ebola outbreaks in the US have actually occurred twice in the past. The first was the famous “monkey house” outbreak that occurred in Reston, VA, in 1989. The second was the less-well-known Ebola outbreak – again at a primate isolation facility – that occurred in Alice, TX, in 1990. In both cases, the primates in question (macaque monkeys) were received from the same primate facility in the Philippines.
In both cases, the USA dodged a bullet. Both cases were outbreaks of Ebola Reston – the sole known species of Ebola that can infect but does not produce serious illness in humans. (In contrast, Marburg was discovered when an infected primate managed to pass along a lethal filovirus to humans; that occurred in Marburg, Germany – hence the name.) However, in both cases medical testing of humans working with the infected primates confirmed that some humans had been inffected as well. So if this had been a fatal Ebola strain, we’d have very likely been in deep trouble.
Why? Because in both cases there is strong evidence that aerosol transmission of the virus was a primary means of transmission, at least among the primate population. Here’s a quote from the linked article above relating to the Reston outbreak (emphasis added):
The investigators documented a high likelihood of aerosol transmission outside a controlled laboratory setting, because the virus appeared to pass between rooms to infect susceptible monkeys.
Aerosol droplets spread by the facility’s ventilation system are believed to have been the mechanism.
Further, even today not all virologists are convinced that Ebola doesn’t spread via aerosol means.
This is the basis for today’s debate over whether Ebola can be transmitted through the lungs, a discussion that has never been fully resolved, Dr. Murphy said.
The “Dr. Murphy” here is Dr. Frederick Murphy – a virologist from the University of Texas. IMO we probably should listen to him. He helped discover Marburg, participated in the investigation of the 1st known Ebola outbreak as well as that of the 1989 outbreak of Ebola Reston in Reston, VA. He was the 1st person to image the Ebola virus with an electron scanning microscope. I’d guess his opinion concerning filoviruses like Ebola is probably more likely to be correct than that of most others on this planet.
5. The troops going won’t be adequately trained for the mission.
During the 1989 Ebola Reston outbreak, DoD responders were from USAMRIID – DoD’s premier biological research facility. Even then, there were difficulties. And those were the most experienced people we had (remember, this was during the wind-down of the Cold War; and biowarfare was still a real concern.)
To my knowledge, we’re not packing up USAMRIID and sending them on this mission. We’re sending normal DoD units – regular troops.
I don’t think they’re the right people to send.
6. Recent reports indicate cultural factors and superstitions must change before containment will be effective.
I don’t think I need to discuss this much. Teams in West Africa trying to educate the population concerning the disease have been attacked and slaughtered by the population they’re trying to help. Ditto those who were sent to recover infected dead for safe burial.
Why? The indigenous population largely either denies the existence of the disease, or blames the public health care personnel trying to help for spreading it. Until superstition, denial, and cultural practices that spread the disease change (e.g., communal food plates from which everyone eats with their hands, washing bodies for burial, poor public sanitation) IMO what we’re doing is effectively the same as peeing into the ocean in an attempt to raise sea level. It just ain’t gonna have much effect.
I fear that this disease will only run its course, and the outbreak only eventually stop through burnout. And at this point, I fear the best we can do is try to keep it on one continent.
Cold, and harsh? Yes. The truth often is.
Summary.
Still, the POTUS seems hell-bent on acting. So, we’re going to send troops
- to a region of little strategic importance to the US,
- on a non-military mission, for which
- they’re not really properly trained.
It’s a region experiencing an outbreak of a disease that is
- easily transmissible (if it isn’t, explain the protective gear required),
- may or may not spread by aerial droplet transmission like the common cold,
- doesn’t manifest for up to 21 days after infection, for which
- no practical effective treatment exists, plus
- no vaccine exists,and
- infection fatal for about 50% of those contracting it within 2 or 3 weeks, with
- a truly painful and horrible death, and for which
- long-term (up to 90 days) quarantine will be required for those who catch the disease and recover due to the fact that they still harbor the virus, as well as
- a 30-day post-mission quarantine for returning troops will be necessary to protect public health.
Further, the troops won’t really be able to do much that changes the outcome of the outbreak. We’re really doing it for no other reason than to make ourselves “feel good” by “doing something to help” – even if it really doesn’t.
But if returning troops do manage to bring that crap back to the USA, literally millions could die if a widespread outbreak occurs. And you just KNOW that the returning troops will be quarantined for 30 days to ensure no one is infected but in the latent/incubation period when the mission ends – right? (Yes, that last question was both sarcastic and rhetorical.)
I truly feel for the poor souls in West Africa facing this plague. I don’t see how our involvement can really help. But our involvement could indeed bring that crap back to this continent. All we need for that to happen is one missed incubating infection.
And since we have bats here also, it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that it could become endemic here too.
To me, it seems the risk is too great, and what we can do is in practice small if not negligible. It just doesn’t seem like a good idea. But we’re apparently going to do it anyway.
“I got a really bad feeling about this.”
(Sorry this article is such a downer on an otherwise nice Sunday. But it needs to be said.)
Category: "Teh Stoopid", "Your Tax Dollars At Work", Military issues
Hondo,
I’ve felt the same way all along. What needs to happen is for the infected areas to be quarantined, and the use of deadly force authorized to make certain folks stay put.
If a village dies off, then the entire area ought to be napalmed until nothing but embers is left.
This is VERY much a situation of national defense, and for anyone who wants to see how this could play out with the population, two examples come to mind: The Black death, where 1/3rd of Europe’s population was killed off, and the 1918-20 Influenza outbreak which killed some 20 millions (minimum) around the world.
The closest movie I can think of as an example of what we’re facing is “The Andromeda Strain”. If you haven’t watched it, do so. I recommend the original over the remake, but whatever works for you. It’s a sobering film, regardless.
Don’t have to watch the film, AW1 Tim. Read Crichton’s book close to 4 decades ago. Also did a small amount of academic research into a related issue about a decade ago.
People today have no concept of how deadly an untreatable disease can be in a vulnerable population. And for some diseases, modern medicine still can’t do a damn thing to help once you’re infected.
Ebola is one of them.
Concur. I remember reading the book back then too, and it was an epiphany. Brought a whole new outlook on bacterial warfare and how fragile we humans truly are.
My other great fear is smallpox. Our idiot leadership stopped vaccinating for it sometime back because they declared it was eradicated. Yeah, well, all but two vials of it. One here and one in Russia so it can still be “studied”.
Smallpox can lay dormant for centuries and all we have to do s have some fool dig up a burial site and have that stuff get loose again. What saved many ancient cultures was that they practiced cremation which is essentially the only way to destroy a virus.
But to my mind, if there was ever a clear & preset danger to these United States, Ebola would be it and a damned good reason to secure our borders and to some serious checking before we let anyone or anything else in. In fact, deny entrance to anyone who has even passed through Africa within the last 12 months.
That is what the Philippines are doing in recalling their Forces due to the Ebola risk.
Require US citizens who have passed through infected areas (which isn’t anything close to the entire continent) to pass a 30-day quarantine (either at a supervised facility in the US or, with documentation, time spent outside the infected area) before allowing them to return home.
40 day quarantine to ensure that they have not been infected, which is the time signs and symptoms would show.
That’s on the other side of the continent from where this outbreak is occurring, and its very hot and dry (i.e., the conditions are not at all favorable to Ebola). Geography fail.
How much does president mom-jeans and his clown car posse admin pay you to be their shill on TAH?
It must be substantial for you to constantly come on here and be their good little lap dog, defending their failed policies and leftist adventurism.
I can’t imagine anyone selling out like you have, and keeping a single shred of personal dignity. I’d pity you, but you just aren’t worth it.
Enjoy your 30 pieces of silver, Judas.
There is some discussion elsewhere regarding whether the Plague of Athens was a variant of ebola or Marburg, because the descriptions by survivors (who isolate themselves) match both viruses. Viruses do not leavea a genetic footprint the way bacillae do, which eliminated the likelihood of tyhpus, typhoid another disease.
So my question still hangs out in space: if this disease is not easily transmissable, how come TWO trained aid workers, following procedures correctly, wearing protective clothing, etc., came down with it? How come?
Not easily transmitted? Sure. To whoever said that, I have a bottle of snake oil I’ll sell you cheap.
It’s been ‘way more than two.
My answer has been the same. The UN in conjunction with the WHO and trained medical teams from around the world with UN security forces to provide for their safety is the way to do this. What in the hell is the UN good for except events exactly like this one? A plan to rotate these teams in short tours, with proper quarantine measures could possibly help, if for no more than furthering research in an effort to find a vaccine or even a cure. I have said before, the needed research via blood samples, fluid swabs and so forth is not something combat troops of any nation are trained to do. We would be better of, effectively, to drop clean water, food supplies, information leaflets for those who maybe can read and other necessary aids than to simply send in combat troops. Also, what has been the defined mission of our troops? I have not heard a word about the details of the help they are to provide. What if our troop posts and outposts close to infected areas are attacked either by locals in mass, which has already happened or Muslim terrorists, just as ignorant about this disease but hell bent on an opportunity to kill Americans? Will ROE allow the troops to defend themselves? Even against machete wielding, infected locals? See how that will play out for America, the savior nation, in international media. Lots of questions about this that have not been answered and have no foreseeable answer. One troop, infected soon after deployment but showing no signs of illness, breaks his leg in somehow and is, appearing healthy, rotated home. Observed for a while and still seemingly healthy, he is released back into his unit on a major post. The comings and goings of military personnel nationwide and worldwide, runs a high risk of this coming home in a big and terrible way quickly. Injured troop takes leave and visits family somewhere across the country. Family then comes into contact with local community, doctor’s offices and schools. I could go on but you get the… Read more »
Agreed. It is a stupid idea fraught with peril for our nation.
No argument with your analysis, Hondo. Any one of those reasons stands alone as sufficient justification.
Seems like the first manner of dealing with communicable disease is to isolate it. Where do the policy makers plan to hide from this disease? They seem very intent on exposing the rest of us to it.
I dont know if they have said who they are sending yet, but 1ID is the QRF for AFRICOM, and 3,000 troops sounds awfully like a BCT to me.
I don’t really think a BCT can do much more than be 3,000 potential carriers. Putting untrained soldiers into that environment is recklessly (possibly criminally) negligent.
Send me back to Iraq, its safer.
To paraphrase Lord Tennyson:
Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the {three thousand}.
“Forward, the Light Brigade!
“Charge for the {virus}!” he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the {three thousand}
No they really aren’t. They are sending troops to build hospitals and distribute medical kits. You dont need doctors for that
I doubt there is 3,000 medical personnel in the entire military. You think they are going to strip them all out of the Army for a single mission? You must be high.
Who do you think conducted those same exact missions in Iraq and Afghanistan? Regular old ground troops is who. That is one of the many functions of an Army Brigade Combat Team. It will not surprise me in the least to see a BCT from 1ID to show up to do this. The numbers line up and that is their AOR.
PVT SNAFU, who do you think will be doing patrols and providing security for the little tinsel mice like you?
BE CAREFUL PVT SNAFU, and don’t injure yourself stapling documents in your HQ (Don’t burn yourself making coffee, either)! That is if you don’t get tasked out on details like the gym or library, that’s where we sent troops like you when I was AD!
Well said, all of these are reason why there should be serious concerns about this mission.
If just 1% become infected…comes out to roughly 30 soldiers. You’re talking about a PR disaster for the WH / State / Pentagon…that’s a lot of family members raising hell w/ their Congressman/Senators, and going on TV/Radio/social media. AFRICOM boss GEN David Rodriguez, I imagine can’t be too thrilled…he was probably force fed this steaming pile of cow pie & told to chew.
The WH spinmeisters of course will spit out gobblygook…preliminary evidence indicates the illnesses are in no way connected to the Ebola outbreak, but an investigation is ongoing…currently, troop morale remains high, and they remain focused & committed to the mission.
Ah, but you forget the Power of the Internet, the vast ocean that is social media, and the reporters who go hunting for scoop stories that they can pin their names to.
Any PR attempt by the dingalingers in the WH will be immediately offset by the same thing that made people drive along highways last year, throwing traffic cones into the ditches: we’re Americans. We don’t swallow bullshit when we know better.
Such a stupid response to infected troops returning from the hot zone can and will quickly become a PR disaster for anyone involved in trying to hide behind platitudes and twaddle.
I can see the protests and demonstrations now….
Ex, the WH has the solution — Twitter. They will tweet their outrage and the disease will vanish.
I wonder how many soldiers will refuse to deploy? Combat I could take, the unknown of weather or not that person coughing near you is going to cause you to die I don’t think I could handle.
You go. I’ll cheer you on.
Hondo – Excellent post, but you left out how those ebola outbreaks in those primate facilities were eventually terminated.
An option nobody will discuss for obvious reasons.
Not an option when dealing with humans, butch.
Not even if it “could save just one life”? Stay tuned.
How many millions of American lives are we putting at risk by not quarantining the place and letting it burn itself out? Harsh mathematics.
PVT SNAFU, I’ve served in the NG and AD, I’ve got plenty of time outside the wire in a Combat Zone while your type stays inside and bitches about the A/C and coffee machine. I’ve done disaster relief as well, things like dismounted patrols at night because they didn’t have enough police, food & water distribution,…. You LOVE to run off at the mouth, but many like me here on TAH have already BTDT, little one!
BTW, you’re making yourself to be a fine exhibit of how diarrhea of the mouth is a symptom of having SHIT FOR BRAINS!!
No, PVT SNAFU, I did them and drove on, you sound like a young “Boot” with a big inferiority complex, and you’re messing with Vets that are older and MUCH more experienced than you, my little glitter-farting rear echelon tinsel mouse!
BTW, don’t hog someone else’s time on the MWR computer, and DON’T hurt yourself stapling documents!!
I’d bet that Mark L. is either quite short (Napoleon syndrome) or has small dick syndrome.
That among other things, I think he definitely has a heavy duty inferiority complex!
Boot!
If I were one of the tinfoil hat types, I’d start pointing out the plot of Tom Clancy’s “Executive Orders”. It includes terrorists releasing ebola throughout the US.
If it happens by accident or design, no tin foil hat is required. This plan for 3000 defies logic.
“Copy and paste”? Hardly. Try “brief survey of readily available information and distilled analysis designed to be understandable.” Along with a 10-year refresher on recent changes.
At the macro level, what’s known about Ebola hasn’t really changed all that much in the last decade or so. (Some additional details are known, and work has been done to try and develop treatments. ZMapp in particular looks promising, but is still experimental and “not ready for prime time”.) The only real macro-level changes have been identification of a new species or two of Ebola (which may or may not be due to recent mutations) and the tentative identification of the suspected natural reservoir to be bats. A few other things are now known a bit more accurately (mortality rates by species). That’s about it.
There’s a good reason the Soviets investigated weaponizing both Ebola and Marburg – and according to some accounts, in fact did so, along with a rather large number of other very nasty organisms. It doesn’t take very much thought to figure out the why.
As I’ve said previously elsewhere: if you want a glimpse at how bad it could be, Google “Dark Winter exercise smallpox” and keep looking until you find reports of that particular emergency preparedness drill. And when you do that, remember two things: there IS a vaccine for smallpox, and smallpox “only” kills about 30% of those it infects.
There is NO vaccine for Ebola. And Ebola-Zaire, the species in play in this outbreak, kills 50% or more of its victims – not 30%.
Unless you’ve actually researched the issue personally, Markie-boi, you probably need to grab a big steaming mug of STFU. If you haven’t done that, you don’t really have a freaking clue about what we’re dealing with here and the potential consequences.
I’m not worried about whether you go, or come back – jackass. About you personally, I could not care less.
I’m worried about whether you – or someone else – deploys there and brings that stuff back with them.
That eventually could easily kill millions of Americans. And that, you naive fool, is why the mission at this point is a monumentally stupid idea. The risk of doing exactly that, while possibly or even probably low, is NOT zero.
The previous outbreaks in Africa were controlled largely via burnout and isolation. Those mean exactly what you think they mean – the disease progressed within the affected area until it ran out of people to infect or kill.
They also thankfully occurred in areas that were isolated and had poor transportation infrastructure, even by African standards. This outbreak doesn’t share that feature. West Africa is both relatively densely populated and has, by African standards, well-developed transportation networks.
If you’re more concerned with “saving lives” than defending the US, you’re in the wrong line of work – or you’re lying about being in or associated with the military. As a member of the military (or as a civilian DoD employee, for that matter), your first job is to defend this nation. Saving foreign lives is a secondary consideration.
You wanna be a professional “savior of mankind”? Fine. Get out of DoD and go do that. So long as you work for DoD, that’s not your job. Apparently you either have forgotten that – or never accepted that truth in the first place.
I think you underestimate the severity of the situation.
That’s obvious, Sporkmaster. He has no f**king clue about the potential worst-case consequences of this being mishandled.
He probably thinks Rainbow Bright and the Color Kids (or maybe My Little Pony and her friends) can conjure up a rainbow and make it all better. Hell, he probably is wondering why that hasn’t already happened.
As you and I both know, that ain’t how incurable and deadly infectious diseases work.
Also because I think that he is not medical that if you have seen one type of disease you have seen them all. It is the reason why he referrers to dengue fever and malaria on the same level as Ebola.
Same level? That’s a laugh.
Both dengue and malaria are vector-borne diseases (mosquito). They both have a typical mortality rate of on the order of 1%.
Ebola is not vector-borne. And for Ebola Zaire, the typical mortality rate is 50% or more.
Same level? Yeah. Right. I’m not medical either, and I can see a world of difference.
Of course, I’ve actually researched the matter considerably more than reading a “USA Today Infographic” about Ebola. I’d guess he hasn’t.
By doing what to combat it?
I have to ask what is your medical background? Do you have any medical licensees at all?
Because I have both being a Texas Licensed Practical Nurse.
URGENT DISPATCH FOR PVT SNAFU, your 1SG called, he wants his coffee NOW!
No, oh incredibly dense one. I’m worried about literally millions of Americans who might die needlessly because someone felt we had to “do something” just so that they could feel good about themselves. Should that come to pass, random chance will be far more important in determining who lives and who doesn’t than anything you or I can do. Whether we live or die at that point will be largely out of our control.
Frankly, I’ve had a good long run so far. If that’s my way off this planet – that’s the breaks. I’ll simply see if I can come back to take revenge somehow on those responsible for the idiocy that caused it.
However, my descendants haven’t yet had the privilege of attaining my age. I’d like them to have a good chance to reach my age before they also go. I’m guessing you have no children or grandchildren. If you did, you’d care about them – and understand that without having to be told that’s what’s behind my ire.
Idiocy like this reduces that chance. And it does so without good reason.
As I said: if you wanna “save the world”, then freaking leave your current job at first opportunity and go do that. Until then, stick to what you swore to do – specifically, defending the nation.
That’s your freaking mission, numbnuts. Not “saving the world”.
Hondo, thanks for a nice, clear recital of the pertinent information. About twenty years ago, I asked what was worse than HIV, and I was told Dengue Fever and Ebola. I don’t want to see either get a foothold here.
Maybe this is our troll at “work”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpFsnnvw7dQ
Mark L is our PVT SNAFU!
Which comes down the the original question I started my last entry.
How does the DOD/White House intend to contain/address the Ebola issue with the military personal that it wants to send?
My guess, Spork, is that based from what I’ve seen from this DC Clown Crewe, they don’t have either a clue or a plan. My guess at this point is that they plan to treat this as just another “combat” deployment, with no special processing or quarantine planned at the end of mission.
The fools in charge strike me as just about as gullible and naive as our friend Markie-boi here. I really don’t think they’ve thought about worst-possible-case or done any “what ifs” whatsoever.
And that scares the absolute hell out of me. This one AIN’T “business as usual”.
Are you always such a sanctimonious asshole, Mark? Or did we just catch you on a good day?
I think you can leave out the word “sanctimonious” there, Other Whitey. As I recall he doesn’t always take a “holier than thou” attitude.
That attitude also IMO appears to be contrived for show vice genuine. Many of his other posts indicate clearly he’s focused on “me/my/career” vice serving the nation. But that’s a different issue.
“Oh you’re worried about YOURSELF. Well, here I thought that your concerns were completely selfish. How foolish of me to think that. I’m sure you’ll be fine, buttercup. Just hunker down in your zombie apocalypse bunker with your guns, Glenn Beck gold bars, and MREs. I’ll come knock on your cellar door when the job is done and we’re all home safely.”
Someone’s trying hard for that “Legion of Darwin” award. Buy an extra one so you can throw it over the White House fence(s), Knife Kill.
There is on experimental treatment that is known to work. That is infusing the plasma of a survivor of the disease into the body of someone who has been infected. Pretty low tech stuff but it has worked in the past. The main problem is you need someone to survive the virus first, and not many do depending on the strain.
I understand the sentiment about civil affairs and disaster relief teams providing help. This is an entirely different animal and far outside the experience of just about any disaster team on the planet. Want to do some good with those teams? Send them to Texas and Arizona and let them screen illegals running over our border.
I think affects in the US are under-estimated. Pourous southern border. A government no one trusts. There’s going to be a panic – people not showing up for work, food shelves not stocked, etc. So I’m wondering what the secondary effects (ie non-infected casualties) are going to look like.
effects damnit, not affects
I’d be quite happy to do a lengthy counterpoint to all of this but I’m a bit short on time at the moment. So the (somewhat) short version is that whether we go or not, the failure scenario here is having this still relatively localized epidemic become a global pandemic. So what does the risk profile look like for that scenario? I don’t have any firsthand knowledge of that, but everything from expert opinion to theoretical models to every ounce of existing data on present and past outbreaks is being used to create one, and I can’t imagine any scenario where going is MORE of a risk than keeping our soldiers here. The reason for this is simple – three thousand people may sound like a lot, but it’s three thousand people in a single location, with frequent monitoring, presumably a high degree of personal protective equipment, controlled entry back into the country (which would probably include limited quarantine in addition to full and frequent blood work and Ebola-specific tests.) Contrast that with a global pandemic. The natural tendency would be to close all air travel, close ports, etc., and that sounds good in theory. But in practice, how much of our border is unchecked? Not just the Mexican one, either. Human trafficking, black market goods, drugs, etc., unless you can say with one hundred percent certainty you can stop ALL these potential vectors / carriers (and realistically you can’t), then it’s only a matter of time before it reaches our shores if indeed it becomes a global pandemic. Besides, what do we do in the meantime? The fear seems to be the risk that the three thousand soldiers represents, but if this does become a global pandemic, we would have far more Americans at risk in overseas locations than that relatively small number. At what point do we bring them home, and with what monitoring / quarantine provisions? Ultimately, this becoming a global pandemic means we WILL face it here, no matter how much effort goes into closing our borders. So if the risk profile says that going has… Read more »
One can indeed make an argument for a deployment of forces to contain and end the current Ebola outbreak.
However, that case would involve far more than 3,000 troops. And they wouldn’t be going there with no planning, no defined ROE, or and an ill-defined mission of “helping people”.
Rather, that would be a large deployment – and would involve troops from more nations that the US. It would have the mission of sealing off the affected area – no one out except after passing through 30 days quarantine if healthy (3 weeks for max incubation plus 1 week safety) – or 90 days quarantine for Ebola survivors (virus has been found in body fluids of survivors as late as 82 days post recovery). Authority to enforce the “no exit” policy with deadly force would be clear and unquestioned – and fully backed by all governments involved.
Such a deployment might actually end the current outbreak. However, it would be costly as hell, would take a load of troops (I was serious when I said elsewhere I wasn’t sure 300,000 would do it – the perimeter of the area requiring containment approaches 1,000 miles). It would cause much “wailing and gnashing of teeth” from the press and those of liberal political persuasion because of the “violation of those poor people’s rights”. So IMO, it’s simply not going to happen.
We don’t have that kind of deployment being rammed down our throats here. What we have is the worst of both worlds – a relatively large number of people thrust into the situation and put at risk, but far too few to make any real difference.
That’s IMO far worse than doing nothing – because if we’re not careful, we’ll end up making a bad situation far worse.
So far, from one locus of infection, almost 2000 people have died. So you want to take a chance on creating potentially 3000 loci which could fan out all over the country?
I’m guessing this was directed to me, not Hondo? The short version is I feel the chances of us creating even a single locus back here via these troops is incredibly small, and the risk associated with that is less than the risk associated with inaction. To take those two parts in turn, I feel the risk is small because I’m assuming that any servicemen in even first-degree indirect contact with locals will have protective gear, careful screening, and possibly be quarantined. I’m also assuming Ebola isn’t airborne at this time, and the mission parameters for the vast majority of the soldiers are to construct medical facilities, not to engage with locals. Maybe you quantify the risk of that differently, but all told, I think it’s a small risk. Not zero, but small. The second part is the risk of inaction. It’s possible this will be contained without action – apparently Nigeria and Senegal have contained it, or so says the WHO. Granted, it was less severe there, with cases in the single or double digits. Liberia, on the other hand, is having to turn away sick people -releasing them back into the public!- because of a lack of medical facilities. These people can then go on to infect others. Everything from insufficient facilities to lack of medical expertise to a general lack of knowledge about Ebola transmission in the general populace has this spreading. Liberia is the worst hit, with Sierra Leone next. The predictions for spread have been pretty much spot-on, and projections into future months show it probably going worldwide if it isn’t contained. When that happens, we go from having to carefully check three thousand people entering the country in a controlled fashion, after being in a carefully screened, controlled environment, to EVERY person, not to mention some migratory animals, being a possible carrier. In short, the risk of the latter seems pretty huge to me, and the risk of sending people seems small. The hope is that extra medical people, facilities and basic education will contain it. (I don’t know enough about the actual plan… Read more »
David: what I was saying is that sending 3,000 – a number that IMO is far too few to do anything meaningful, and is nothing but a “feelgood exercise” to make our political leaership proud of themselves – is the worst of both worlds.
Sending either (1) zero or (2) participating in an international coalition having enough forces to actually, you know, seal off the outbreak area as tight as the proverbial drumhead both IMO make much better sense. I’m guessing the total forces required for the latter to be roughly field Army strength (200k-300k), and maybe more – plus air and logistics. Our contribution would probably start at a corps, minimum.
We’re not going to do the latter. And IMO, doing the former is preferable to sending a handful of personnel lacking the skills and training required for the mission who’ll do nothing effective and will expose themselves to needless risk.
It’s sort of like bombing an open field 10 miles from a hostile military base in order to “send the enemy a signal”. It makes no military or common sense, wastes resources, and needlessly risks your own peoples’ lives. And it can actually be counterproductive if something goes wrong.
Not sure if you saw this but apparently the German Defense Minister is asking for military members to volunteer for the Africa/Ebola mission. Apparently their commitment is to set up one 50 bed hospital. http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/news/world-news/180172-volunteer-to-fight-ebola-germany-urges-soldiers
Hondo,
I guess one cynical way to look at it is the 3000 troops will give USAMRID someone to study.
This is how far behind the 8-ball we are with our troops:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140908152930.htm
One shot of an experimental vaccine made from two Ebola virus gene segments incorporated into a chimpanzee cold virus vector, called chimp adenovirus type 3 or ChAd3, protected four macaque monkeys exposed to high levels of Ebola virus 5 weeks after inoculation, report scientists.
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Blue-sky monkey adenovirus vaccine has worked ok in four monkeys, at least at the 5-week mark. This is a monkey vaccine, not a human vaccine. We had these kind of results with an AIDS vaccine TWENTY YEARS AGO, and we still do not have a reliable AIDS vaccine for humans.
4 doses. In monkeys. Designed for monkeys. Good for 5 weeks out.
By the time these troops deploy, there won’t be enough experimental vaccine to try on them, much less anything proven.
It seems unethical to me, to experiment on patients in this manner, much less on healthy people that we do not want to become patients.
I question the wisdom of the current administration, and I question its ethics, as well.
Valerie: “ethics”? “Current Administration?”
You’re joking, right?
Read somewhere in the past day or so (sorry, forgot to bookmark it) that the meds used to treat Ebola have been depleted. Worldwide.
Oh, goody.
Oh, never mind. Just ran into it again, and it was the ZMAPP that Hondo mentioned earlier. Thought it was a reliable source! At least part of the remembering process was correct. 😉