US asks for dismissal in King lawsuit
The Army Times reports that the US Attorney, Terri Hearn Bailey, involved in the gender and racial discrimination lawsuit brought by former sergeant major Theresa King, who had been the commandant of Drill Sergeant school at Fort Jackson, has asked that the lawsuit be dropped;
Retired Command Sgt. Maj. Teresa King’s lawsuit, filed in federal court in Columbia, South Carolina, argues she was improperly suspended by her supervisors, Command Sgt. Maj. John Calpena, and Maj. Gen. Richard Longo. They and Robert Cone, the former commander of Training and Doctrine Command, are named in the suit, filed on Nov. 21.
Assistant U.S. Attorney Terri Hearn Bailey on May 2 filed a motion to dismiss, arguing that claims based on allegations of sex discrimination and improper termination of military employment are barred under the Feres doctrine. The Feres doctrine refers to the 1950 Supreme Court ruling that protects the government from active-duty members who are claiming damages for actions related to military service.
Apparently, the former sergeant major is upset because her superiors pointed out that, despite a decade of war, she had managed to avoid deployments. She was charged with training combat veterans to train future combat veterans without the benefit of being a combat veteran. And somehow that’s being racist.
King’s 30-page lawsuit alleges her otherwise stellar career was derailed by her superiors. She was investigated for poor leadership, and later cleared of wrongdoing, but not immediately reinstated as commandant.
[…]
King claims her civil rights were violated in a variety of ways, including discrimination, retaliation and through a hostile work environment. She also claims Longo’s failure to provide a reason for her suspension “created a vacuum into which defamatory statements about CSM King were published.”
Of course, she did attain the highest enlisted rank and secured a prestigious job. The Army made a big deal of her assignment and she even ended up on Oprah. All of that without doing what most of the Army did – deploy to fight our wars. Sounds pretty hostile, doesn’t it?
Personally, I think she’s bluffing and hopes the Army will settle, but if they don’t, she’s going to force their hand and make them reveal the details of their investigation into her alleged malfeasance and she won’t like that. The Army doesn’t want to do that, but she’s making them and neither King nor the Army will like the outcome.
Category: Military issues
Gender and race will continue to be an issue as long as people continue to use them as both an umbrella and a parachute.
So forever then.
I am so glad I stayed Infantry.
From what has been said, the hostile work enviroment extended from her office doors outwards. As well as a bit of an alcohol problem, and innapropriate relations with a lower ranked member of the schoolhouse.
At trial the truth will set her free!! I am with Jonn, when the details come out, she is not going to be a happy camper.
Go home SgtMaj. You’re drunk.
What a moron. What is her desired endstate here?? An apology. OK, I am sorry you did not deploy. How is that? You want some cheese to go with that whine?
I can imagine there probably were some defamatory statements about CSM King. Junior troops will tend to do that when they feel that their superiors are avoiding hazardous service and getting rewarded for it.
I hope this thing goes to trial and this dipshit is exposed.
TRADOC Warrior!
LOL +100
Drill Sergeant: What time is chow?
Push, bitch, push.
Feel the “scunion”.
I’m still amazed when I see people here in the office who never made it to Iraq or Afghanistan. “I’m in a low density MOS” is a common excuse. And the rebuttal to that is “there were literally thousands of billets in Iraq/Afghanistan that were ‘MOS immaterial'”.
But I guess SgtMaj King proves the adage “those that can, do. Those that can’t, teach.”
And those who can’t teach set policy!
Stacy0311: depending on one’s MOS and grade, it can be somewhat difficult. Took me multiple tries and 3+ years to get to theater.
That said – I didn’t find it impossible, either. And it didn’t take me a decade.
And as hard as you tried to deploy, she tried just as hard to avoid it. As you succeeded, so did she.
I see someone is adept at reading between the lines . . . . (smile)
In 2010 the dude who replaced me in Afghanistan was a SSgt select who had no prior deployments. To this day, I can’t figure out how he got selected, condsidering the OP-Tempo of our MOS (6046).
Fellow 6046 here (83-91) . . . I worked as a Current Readiness Analyst (contractor) on a certain airframe in the 2008-09 period.
Amazing how many 6046s were @ MALS in not-particularly-6046ish billets. And there were several over at SOMS as well, and their jobs had NOTHING to do with aircraft logs and records.
It’s not who you know, it’s who you blow.
I never made it overseas either. But, as medical, we also have a lot of other places to backfill too, so I consider myself lucky I ended up at WRAMC, which is the center of the action for CONUS medical operations.
About 5 years ago, there was a study out (I think I was in ILE at the time) that showed that just about 40% of the active Army had never deployed, while almost 30% of those who had deployed had done so multiple times.
There were a myriad of reasons, from the type of job, to medical conditions, to the fact that the individuals cited might have still been in basic or BOLC.
Sounds like the same old battle cry of “because you rassist”.
MGySgtRet: It’s not even about “hazardous.” From my experience in Kuwait in 2004 (which at that time qualified as a “combat zone” for both awards and benefits) there are probably 40 rear-area pogue jobs for every one that actually exposes someone to danger.
Which means that her avoiding deployments (while her peers served multiple tours) was less about her being afraid and more about her not wanting to be inconvenienced.
For most of the troops in Kuwait, for example, a deployment was basically a year-long field exercise (and a “field” exercise where you had air conditioned quarters – even if they were tents, they were air conditioned – and hot chow 3x a day.)
So forget about her being exposed to the “hazards” of war, it appears that she couldn’t even bother herself to have to put up with the minor, everyday inconveniences of a safe, rear-area deployment.
martinjmpr: 2004 appears to have been an anomaly with respect to the number of troops deployed to “safe” areas like Kuwait/Bahrain/Qatar ISO operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. For some reason, at times during that year a relatively large fraction (approaching 50%) of US troops deployed ISO each operation appear to have been not actually in-country in either Iraq and Afghanistan, but in other parts of theater. Pretty much any other time between Mar 2003 and about 2010, the vast majority (eyeballing the graphs and mentally combining them says about 70-75%) actually were in harm’s way in either Iraq or Afghanistan. I have no idea why 2004 was so different.
See Figures 6 and 8 (pages 33 and 39) in
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R40682.pdf
Hondo, don’t forget about the base in Manas, Kyrgystan that was where those of us flying into Bagram flew into. (that was a combat zone with all the bennies) (On a base that you WEREN’T allowed to carry your weapons in most areas.)
I will say that I had a CSM at one point who did a bunch of work with the counter-drug operations in South America over the years, but he wasn’t able to deploy to OIF/OEF. I had another friend who kept getting PCS’d to units that were returning from deployment, or just getting back. Though he finally deployed in 2012 luckily, as an augmentee to another unit.
I was lucky enough to volunteer three times and get deployed three times. But that was after spending 4 years in the schoolhouse frustrated that I couldn’t deploy and watched the towers fall in the barracks day room.
In her case, I like the “inconvenience” explanation. That seems to fit fairly well in her case.
A CSM sans Combat Patch? Wotta winner. I remember being told in a briefing a few years ago that the US Miltary no longer puts people out when they turn up HIV Positive, they just don’t send them overseas into Combat Zones. After hearing that, I noticed a fair share of “smooth-right-sleeved” E6’s and 7’s among the demobilization cadre both times when I de-mobed from the ME. Hmmmmm.. As for her lawsuit, I see this getting thrown out, she won’t have a leg to stand on if her former superiors had a good paper trail on her before she was canned!
That was the one thing I took from WLC. Document everything and create that paper trail. And how to do it right, otherwise your only choice is kick the can (send the soldier) away and make them someone else’s problem.
Oh, and I also learned that “Sexual Harassment Assault Response and Prevention (SHARP)” is the number one mission of the Army right now.
Only tangentially related, but I just returned from WLC, a WLC who’s commandant is a CSM without a combat deployment. And she was CA, which deploys almost as much as PSYOP does. Not only can I figure out how she made CSM without an actual combat deployment (she had oversea’s postings to Germany and UK), I cannot figure out why the Army is putting people with that lack of experience in key leadership roles.
OH, trust me, I know what you mean, I had to suffer through WLC not just with a class full of pogues that tried to talk like they were front-liners, but probably 85-90% of the Cadre at that Wienership, *OOPS!*, Leadership school had yup, smooth right sleeves and treated us like we were Boot Camp Joes, the happiest part of that school for me was seeing it in my rearview mirror as I drove away after graduation!
I was so disappointed in that school. It wasn’t a leadership school. It was a check the box event that I’m glad is over. Our instructors weren’t slick sleeves, but they were lacking in outside the wire experience. It cracked me up to watch an aviation mechanic give a hip pocket training class on room clearing, or listen to a logistic supply sergeant talk about the importance of physical courage in combat operations, when it was obvious the closet he got to combat was hearing war stories at the green beans in Kuwait.
The thing was, they were vastly knowledgeable when it came to doing their jobs, both in the combat zone and back on the block. They just didn’t have a good handle on the whole “Warrior” part of the warrior leadership.
I think I know that SGM – she is the SGM for 100th training bat. I am CA and went to ALC at Ft. Dix a year ago. I nearly fell over when she gave a brief and saw no combat patch. A lot of E-7s in my unit have 4+ deployments. Kinda put the importance of that whole class into perspective…
Unfortunately, which speaks to CSM King, a lot of Senior NCOs and Officers “escaped” to the TASS Battalions and DIVITs so they wouldn’t be called for deployment. The unfortunate part was there are/were some NCOs/Instructors in those training units who begged for a decade to be transferred so they could deploy. “Nope, your mission is here, you are too important” blah blah blah. In other words “well, if we let you go, they might come back looking for others to deploy and that means I’ll get sent…”
Though SGT Kane, I’d simply say that CA and PSYOP deploy heavily and fairly equally. 😉
Was it a reserve course by any chance? I have been to a lot of schools run by the Army Reserves over the past 10 years and so and slick sleevery ran rampant in most of them (not so much so in guard run schools). Don’t know what the case is with regular Army schools.
Yes, I should have clarified it was a Reserve school and our instructors weren’t slick sleeves, but being reserves, they were people other than grunts. Which means they had a great deal of experience about how their MOS worked downrange, the outside the wire experience was lacking. Which made it entertaining on the STX lanes, when their way of stressing you out was to try and get you to play guessing games with the decisions you made.
Yeah-it was the same with my ANCOC. They set up situations that were more head games than actual tactical training. I told them that and they replied that the point of ANCOC was to see how we react under stress. I pointed out that I, and many in the class, had already demonstrated that I /we could make those kinds of decisions in actual combat and that their scenarios were wildly unrealistic, but I don’t think they appreciated that.
Oh yeah. I lost five points on my combat leadership evaluation because I was “too calm under fire” and because I “wasn’t taking the situation seriously”, because if I was, there was “no way I’d be that calm”. I had to point out to them my CAB wasn’t just for decoration and I had actually done my leadership lane (run a TCP) in theater, in which honest to god bullets had flown back and forth. Oh, and I was “inflexible in my thinking” because once I made a decision I didn’t stress out when they questioned my decision making. I stayed the course until the situation dictated otherwise.
Hah! I got told by a Battalion Commander he didn’t appreciate my “canned brief” that I gave him. But my leadership stood up for me and told him “Sir, that’s just how he briefs, he didn’t have a prepared briefing.” The CSM even told him “yeah Sir, STFU!”
So what you guys are saying is that the pros (you) who had BTDT and knew how to react correctly, and what to expect in the real-time world of combat, were correcting the amateurs who might know how to keep MREs and blankets supplied, but hadn’t been shot at? And they didn’t like that.
If that’s the case, why are these classes not employing combat-experienced (meaning shot at and shot back) instructors instead of people who simply have rank?
Instructors (and I can say this as someone who has the 8 identifier) have a bad rap in the Army (those who can’t do teach!). The result is, that very few of us with deployment experience want to come home and do that.
I did it, with the understanding that I wouldn’t join 1st Army or a reserve instructor bde, but would remain with my company and teach when I could.
Then once you are an instructor, getting anything changed is almost impossible, not because TRADOC (who also has a bad rap) doesn’t listen to you, they just listen to everyone else (who doesn’t have experience).
There’s also a lot of resentment towards those who have Combat Patches, CAB’s, CIB’s, and awards for valor by those who don’t. In some cases its outright hostile (and to be fair it goes both ways, (a slick sleeved pog is useless until proven otherwise).
But yes, in a perfect world, you’d deploy, come home, instruct, and then deploy again.
I went to BNCOC in the 90s (shut up!) and in our squad, 10/11 of us had deployment experience. Our instructor for the class admitted she hadn’t deployed, but was eager to.
The good thing was, she looked to us constantly about things, how we did downrange and what we thought of the Program of Instruction (POI) for the course. Then she even took our concerns to the leadership and told them. It was refreshing.
Deployment or no Deployment doesn’t make you good or bad, its you that makes you good or bad. I’ve known a few instructors who did an awesome job at teaching what they knew. But I also saw plenty of “I deployed here and we did this” BS going on that was horrible example for how to accomplish tasks and the mission.
And yes, I went to PLDC and I have the 8 identifier as well.
Hmmm…jump wings but no star or wreath? Was she a 5 jump chump or did she actually serve in an airborne unit?
Badge Chasers… Garatroopers.
“Garratropers” – *BING!* you hit it and rang the bell, here’s your cigar!
Standard Fort Bragg desk rat two sets of foreign wings earned with a U.S Army t10c and a Hollywood jump provided by the U.S army/Air force. All they need on paper is that a foreign Jumpmaster did even a half ass JMPI on you. Make that one jump a presto foreign jump wings on your class A’s sorry dress blues. King hade two set of foreign wings worth as much as hers college degrees. One more little sticky point forking to in a senior NCO position on Fort Bragg leaders needed to be Master Parachutist rated and not just a current jump master qualification. IMO she must have far to busy or just to important/lazy to attend the 82nd Airborne’s AAS.
Ah, yes, the infamous Ste. Mere Eglise “foreign” wings. They used to get the exchange officers from USASOC out there once a month or so in order to get “foreign” wings for the staff officers.
I never quite understood that. I mean, it’s nice to get a cool badge, but sooner or later, somebody’s going to ask you where you got those French, Thai, Jordanian or German wings, and the conversation will go like this:
Other person: What kind of wings are those?
You: Jordanian!
OP: Wow, you were in Jordan, huh? What was that like?
Y: Uh, no, I wasn’t in Jordan. I earned them at St. Mere Eglise on Bragg.
OP: Oh, but the Jordanians brought an airplane in for you to jump?
Y: Uh, no, it was a C-130 from Pope.
OP: So, you were jumping a Jordanian ‘chute though with a Jordanian unit?
Y: No, it was a T-10 and the other people on the jump were from my unit.
OP: So how the hell do you rate Jordanian wings?
Y: Well, the Jordanian JM signed off on it.
OP: (LOL)
I mean, seriously, you can tell that story (the truth), or you can make up a story, but of course YOU will always know it’s fake, so why bother?
SSDD
OVER
The foreign jump wing crap is another version of army watering down standards. BFD if you have them now. I have two and EARNED them both overseas in their aircraft and their chutes!
Too many resource suckers with bare right shoulders… I spent 10ish weeks at Jackson, tdy from Benning, I realized two things; 1, these USAREC/USADSS morons have too much power and money. 2, I could not muster the tolerance necessary to operate in their “sphere of influence”. I talked to a couple pipe hitting mo’ fo’s that went through DSS when this woman was in charge. There was lowtalk of impropriety and walking away from the school be damned UCMJ. This right here is an example of the base, career-centric, TRADOC hiding turd that needs to be flushed. You can not be an expert without stepping on the field, period.
There are a lot of people in the comments over in the Army Times article who are defending her and buying her comments about race and gender discrimination. The actual outcome of her case may not matter so much to her as setting herself up as a race and gender martyr, with all of the book and speaker opportunities that would come along with that.
I didn’t look at it that way, she might be thinking that she’s setting herself up to be a deputy to the likes of Jackson, Sharpton,… She’ll be pimping her race and gender cards to anyone that she thinks will listen to her!!
Yeah, I’m getting tired of people like her.
I got a boatload of crap from sailors until I made E-5 and they didn’t, because they couldn’t pass either the practical factors or the written tests. Then they shut their mouths. And I wasn’t nearly as nasty as I am now.
Sounds like a lot of people were never taught how to take responsibility for their actions, be they good or bad.
If the color of your skin or the shape of your genitals is how you think you’re being judged in this world, then stick a fork in yourself, ’cause you’re DONE.
Hmph. She should realize by now that if you’re to teach combat veterans, you need to be a combat veteran.
In other news… I’m planning on joining the Army Reserves through college to start paying off debt. It’s gonna be a hell of a conversation with my dad to get him onboard, but I think it’s a good idea.
Farflung Wanderer, Good for you! Glad you decided to join and serve. All my respect for you.
Thank you.
As it stands, the plan is this: Reserves starting soon (probably later in the summer, but it might be immediate, I don’t know) and running through my four years at Hillsdale. After that, I enlist and join the regular Army.
Might also want to consider ROTC if it’s available.
I talked to Jonn (I hope he doesn’t mind me using his first name) about that, actually, a couple weeks ago. I was discussing joining the Army post-college, and his opinion reinforced my own: Going officer right out the bat is a bad idea.
Not that there are always bad “bootenants” (Lieutenant Winters, anyone?), but I feel like being given such responsibility without having been under someone before would make me a poor officer. It’s a issue that you’d find in government, actually: Congressmen who have never done anything with their life (*cough*Obama*cough*), when given absolute power are either inept or tyrannical. The same can apply in the military: Give someone who hasn’t really done anything or been under someone his Lieutenant’s bars, and he could be a horrible leader. While I wouldn’t be that bad, I wouldn’t feel comfortable leading a platoon, even with the advice of a platoon sergeant, if I haven’t spent time being lead.
Just my personal opinion. My Dad would rather that, if I enlisted, I’d start from ROTC, but I’ve already stated my opinion on that.
There is merit in that position, Farflung Wanderer. There is also substantial risk.
DoD is entering a period of substantial force reduction. During such times, OCS slots are generally hard to come by. If you’re serious about becoming a military officer, you should think long and hard about passing on the opportunity if it’s available now. You may not get the chance later.
Your life and career, so it’s your call. Just make sure you weigh all the options – and all their associated risks.
You raise a fair point. I will have to think about it. I’m not sure if I want to be a career Army man or not, and I will have to make a decision.
For now, though, that’s still four years away. My immediate concern is to handle getting into the Reserves.
True, potential commissioning would be 4 years away.
However, ROTC programs begin during college. And while you’ve probably already missed any chance at a 4-year scholarship if you haven’t already applied, you can still potentially qualify for a 2- or 3-year scholarship.
So if you’re interested in ROTC, you do need to act sometime in the next few months.
There’s also a thing called the Simultaneous Membership Program (SMP). This program covers folks who are (1) Reserve/National Guard members and (2) are also ROTC Cadets. I believe most states have such a program.
Couldn’t find a link from the MI NGB (I assume “Hillsdale” above refers to Hillsdale College), but here’s a link from WMU’s ROTC program.
http://www.wmich.edu/rotc/enroll/guard
Might be worth contacting one of the folks listed there and getting more info.
Hondo, I don’t think that works. Jonn and I looked it up and Hillsdale does not have ROTC.
I’m not about to change colleges for it, especially since I got in *and* got the highest scholarship a Freshman can get (50% tuition), so I’m afraid that isn’t going to help me.
I appreciate your reason for wanting to enlist prior to applying for a commission. I disagree. I have seen fantastic officers with no enlisted time, and I have seen officers Marines would follow only out of idle curiosity that were prior enlisted. The most important factor that determines a successful leader is the individual’s character.
Tankboy nailed it. A good leader understands that he serves the soldiers he commands. Far Flung seems to have a good head on his shoulders, either route should bring him success.
Out of curiosity though, why reserves and not Guard? MOS availability?
Since I’m going to college, I need to have time. Since the Reserve only takes a few hours a month, it’s an ideal choice.
I don’t know what the National Guard has, time wise, actually.
Tell him to give one of us retired guys a call. After talking to one of us your dad will be convinced and assured that it IS a great decision.
Will do, but I’d rather try to convince him myself. We’re going to have a breakfast thing soon, just to connect and better the father-son relationship, and I’m going to tell him about it there.
Obviously, I haven’t signed any papers yet, as I need a bunch of forms that my parents have (medical records, birth certificate, high school transcripts, etc.), so the only way I’m actually going to do this is by convincing them.
After that… I’m going to be spending every weekday morning over the summer running, starting two weeks from now (next week, my brother is still going to school, and it’s a big complication to try to work my new schedule around his morning routine), trying to get into better shape.
Good plan. Direct son to father and father to son is ALWAYS best!
Many here to lean on … so don’t forget that!
Wish you guys were around when I had to tell my mom I was joining. It took the Recruiting Battalion Commander to call her and calm her down (yes, really) enough to at least be “okay” with me joining. (not a good start, a Battalion Commander is calling your mom before you even go to Basic Training)
She cried for 5 minutes straight when I told her I was going to Bosnia, then the first thing she said was “what about school?” It was easier for Iraq and Afghanistan though. Plus it helped me afford to help pay for her Master’s Degree.
Farflung, Mustangs are a great type of Officers (prior enlisted), but that’s not the only thing that makes an officer great. If you want to go officer, just go. Trust me, you’ll get plenty of experience being led.
Good for you, Farflung Wanderer. I wish you luck in wherever your career may take you.
In a drawdown, getting a commission will be more difficult if that is your aim. ROTC will pay your tuition and fees.
More important is that if you go that route and you’re commissioned right out of college, you act with some FRACKING COMMMON SENSE with your troops, instead of acting like an asshole.
Yes, talk to Master Chief.
Rank is something you wear. Respect is something you earn. Don’t be an asshole.
Good advice, thank you. I have no intention of waving rank around, anyways.
Very well said as to “respect and rank” Ex-PH2, very well said.
I hope Mustang2LT Sees this. I am sure he has insight.
My 2 cents. The Military has been turning boys into men for a very long time.
Is has also been turning Boys into Officers and Gentlemen for just as long.
I can understand the idea of being enlisted before becoming an Officer, I dont see it as a necessary.
I was hoping I could get his opinion too. His name implies he’s gone from Enlisted to Officer, so he seems the go-to guy for this.
“King claims her civil rights were violated in a variety of ways, including discrimination, retaliation and through a hostile work environment.”
Did anyone else have any doubts that the “civil rights” and “discrimination” cards would be on the table? All those years, all that rank and never deployed. Yea, she’s a worthless fuck who ducked and covered and stayed in the background her whole career. I will put good money down that she made excellent use of her “race” in going before promotion boards though. Fuck her and the non-infantry, never deployed, Humvee she rode in on. Fuck her. I hope it does go to military court and they show what a spineless ass hole she truly is. Fuck her, try her then when she loses under the UCMJ, demote her sorry ass and toss her out. One things for sure, she’ll never be able to claim PTSD.
By the by, just how did she make it to that rank and position without deployment, without practical, real life experience of the job she was charged with the proper training for? Anybody else wanna guess along with me? Bitch!
I’ll answer my own last question above in as delicate as way as possible. The answer is, Affirmative Action, is, has been and always will be, as alive and well in the military, as it is in the civilian world. There, that’s my thought and belief about her.
At basic training in 2006, I volunteered for an unknown detail and was turned down because I was “too white, too male, and too old”. Turns out the detail was dinner with the base command sergeant major. I would have complained to our EO rep, but she was the one who shot me down.
SGT Kane Thank you sir. My point exactly!
It isn’t just military – I was tuned down as a blood marrow donor in El Paso because the program, albeit civilian, was funded by the Navy, who directed that the donors be Hispanic- and as an Irish/Scots/English/German mutt I was not welcome. Somehpow when I moved 700 miles east I was rehabilitated.
Actually David, new studies indicate that the Irish came from Northern Spain, not from the rest of Europe. Boom, your hispanic!
Gracias!
Actually, Eric, there is a fair component of the Irish population from Spain (Black Irish) washed ashore after the Great Armada was hammered by storms. And old CSM buddy name of Shaugnessy is one of their descendants.
Eric…As a former sponsor of two Spanish exchange students, they take great exception to the term Hispanic. They clearly and quickly let you know they are Spaniards and have nothing whatsoever to do with the North, Central and South American…Hispanics. They know their ancestors brought their cultures and DNA to these continents but they stop there and want no truck with who we define as Hispanics. I write this because I was surprisingly shocked when both of them, sternly and politely corrected our family and anyone else who referred to them as such. Just saying how they feel about it. The Spaniards are very proud folks about their country its heritage. Eric, please don’t take this as me trying to correct your post or use of the term. Just reporting my experience here. 😀
A bit OT perhaps but I’d be interested in hearing from some of the current active duty or even RC soldiers WRT the attitude towards the combat patch.
Back when I first came in in 1980 they weren’t rare, exactly, but neither were they that common. By the late 80’s, most of the Vietnam guys were retiring and combat patches were very few, and generally rated some automatic respect.
After Desert Storm, of course, there were lots of DS vets wearing patches, many of whom would cheerfully admit that they spent the whole deployment at KKMC and never heard a shot fired in anger, nevertheless, they had ‘been there’ and that meant something.
But nowadays, after nearly 13 years of war, I can’t think of any reason why any career NCO or officer (or even an E-4 with more than 4 years of service) should not have deployed at least once. So what is the attitude, within a platoon, let’s say, if all of the squad leaders and team leaders are sporting a right sleeve patch (even if it’s a 3rd Army patch) and the PSG is not?
Anybody E-6 or above or O-3 or above without one is suspect as far as I’m concerned. I mentioned the Reserve schools I attended above and the NCOs there knew they were suspect and many of them would say in class “I would like to deploy” or something similar (apparently some muckity muck somewhere up the chain made it policy that instructors wouldn’t deploy, or at least that’s the story).
It’s hard for me to imagine a situation where the PSG has no combat patch and the squad leaders all do. Of the relatively few NCOs I have seen without one, I don’t think they were in leadership positions where combat mattered much (one was a company supply sgt and the other was an E-7 in an AG company), but I suspect that Joes are not going to take much stock in what a slick sleeve says on tactical matters-though administrative/career issues might be a different story.
I can vouch for the “instructors don’t deploy” thing. I returned from Iraq and wanted to share my knowledge and experience with other soldiers, so I went to ABIC, got my 8 identifier and taught a couple of reclass classes as well as working with other instructors to update and develop courses. And every time I volunteered to deploy the group CSM would bounce me from the roster, because I was too “valuable as an instructor”, even long after my experience was no longer current. Keep in mind I wasn’t in an instructor battalion (that was the deal, I’d get the identifier, teach as much as my civilian job would allow and deploy with my company when called up)
I think instructors have a bad rap (those that can’t do teach) and so no one wants to do it. As a result you have a few instructors and they end up not being able to get tasked out for deployments.
I went to TAITC in 2008 when I was working pre-mobilization (they also sent me to the OC/T academy), so I’ve never really been an instructor, at least in the Army.
Not only that SGT Kane, but comparatively, Drill Sergeants get “Proficiency Pay” for being a DS. ($375 a month when I was an instructor) and how much do instructors get? pats on the back don’t sell for much on E-bay.
I was an AIT instructor and got more details, got staff duty all the time (DS were “exempt” from staff duty because they had it so rough), DS positions were filled to 130% strength, instructor positions were at most 25% strength, I could go on. So what’s the motivation to be an instructor? The schoolhouse was even asking every instructor “do you wanna be a drill?”
They removed Drills from AIT because their day was basically “do PT, march to chow, march to classroom, hand out mail, go home” My contact hours on an average day were 9, a Drill’s were about 3 (being generous).
Yet, they were getting 375 extra a month. As if instructors dont need to be “proficient” in doctrine and material…
By the way, this has nothing to do with Basic / OSUT drill Sergeants. Yes, they do earn their pay checks and their lives suck for that 2-3 years they are there. No doubt.
Just want to clarify before someone goes on a “I was an OSUT Benning Drill, Fuck You!” tangent. Thank you for your service.
I’m not sure on what Dril Sergeants do in the Army that is realy different from what Drill Instructors do in the Corps while the recruits are in “Basic”,
USMC DIs do generally 65-70 hour a week, and tats not counting the time they spend as Duty DI every 3-4 nights. The only times there is any slack is during “grass week” on the range and Mess/Maintenance week.
I guess the Army is differnt in that D/Ss become more like troop handlers when the new soldiers start MOS school,
That’s why there aren’t any Drills any longer in “MOS School” or as we call it, AIT. With the exception of OSUT Training, for example infantry training which is basic and “AIT” all in one long school.
And us Army instructors don’t even get a fancy hat!
I can keep it short. It boggles my mind to see an E-6 without a combat patch. It blows my mind to see an E-7 without one, and it destroys my mind to see slick sleeve E-8’s and E-9’s wander around places mucking with things they shouldn’t be.
There are some good ones out there, who do know their jobs and do them well, but they are far outweighed by those who need a deployment or two to figure out how things work and what needs to be fixed.
Maybe they’ll pay her off with a job at the Office of Blue Falcon Operations at the VA.
Well, Jonn, they are looking for a new Deputy Under Secretary for Health Operations and Management . . . .
You mean the guy who retired and then was told to “resign” because of the situation there? Badumtish!
“She also claims Longo’s failure to provide a reason for her suspension “created a vacuum into which defamatory statements about CSM King were published.”
What the hell did she expect? A non deployed, person in her position is suspect to begin with. She didn’t think there was already LOTS of defamatory statements being made about her, within her organization, before all this happened? Give me a break and she needs to get a clue!
Last I knew, which was long ago, I served at the pleasure of my superiors. They could do with me as they saw fit, with or without “reasons”. I never asked, “Why Sir?”. I always simply said, “Yes Sir”. I may have gone away with my own different thoughts but they were mine to keep to myself and not to question the whys of my superiors decisions. In short, I obeyed orders. She must have missed that whole Power Point Presentation on serving at under superiors, without question to legal orders given her. Poor thing, she’s butt hurt. Fuck her!
I am seriously doubting that she was not given a reason for her removal. I think someone did her a favor or tried to anyhow by not making the reasons official on paper
Meanwhile in Tucson, we at Davis-Monthan AFB will welcome home Command Sergeant Major Martin Barreras for the final time as all personnel available have been requested to line the route across base.
Tell the old warrior I send my best, Eggs.
Didn’t know him. Wish I had.
Eggs…Thank you for being there. Silently pass on in your thoughts, my respect and honor to CSM Barreras. I, like many here, wish we could be there. Thank you again.
Done.
Proud to be in a group of airmen, soldiers and civilians as far as the eye could see down Craycroft.
Eggs, thank you again fro representing me and others here. I wish there were pictures to see of that occasion.
http://www.wfla.com/story/25587378/a-tucson-hero-returns-home-today
Thanks very much Eggs!
You’re welcome Sparks.
Knew him at Regiment. All around no-BS, solid dude. The Army needs a lot more CSMs like him.
The issue I have with this case is this woman also lied about her credentials and claimed she had a bachelors and masters when she really had not obtained either. She was also know to have a drinking problem, and was sleeping with an E-5. She got caught and the Army to save face relieved here but of course she pulled the race card.
…and she had vanity plates that read something like “NO SLACK” or some such nonsense (so I read somewhere else).
USMCE8Ret You gotta be kiddin me. NO SLACK, eh. Well karma is a bitch because what she got was no slack. She deserved none either.
Here you go: Miss “No Slack” herself…
http://www.militarycorruption.com/csmteresaking2.htm
Okay, I’m tired of this self-involved whining cow. She got kicked upstairs to the top of the heap and is using gender and race discrimination as her accusations?
Based on what? She’s female. She’s black. She’s E-9(?). Where the hell does she get off using ‘discimination’ in any way at all?
I can dig up (and have done so) plenty of women of various races, enlisted and officers both, who have made it to the top and haven’t pulled the gender or race cards on anyone to get there, nor have they misbehaved along the way.
She needs to face a few facts about herself.
1 – She’s an unpleasant, self-centered cow.
2 – She can’t behave herself with male subordinates.
3 – She avoided combat deployment when she should have volunteered for it, if she expected to be taken seriously.
4 – Guessing on this one, but I’d say nobody likes her because she’s a bitch on wheels and doesn’t know the difference between being a termagant, (or petty tyrant), and an authority figure who gets respect. I would bet money she knows that no one really respects her, despite her advanced rank.
I’m sick of her grandstanding displays of self-centered grumbling. She’s giving women in the military a bad aura. I don’t think anything makes her happy unless she’s the center of attention. Where have we seen this before?
Maybe I could go have a screaming match with her. I think I could handle her.
Ex-PH2 coming from you that is saying a lot and well said to boot. I knew many honorable women during my time in service. Women of all races who served as they were called and ordered to serve, especially the nurses in Vietnam. They never whined, never complained. They did the job given them and did it oh so very well. She does a great disservice both to women in the military and blacks in the military. She is just too dumb and self serving to see it. To read above she lied about her credentials (why the Army does not check claimed credentials such as those is a whole other matter) as well as having a drinking problem and a problem keeping her hands off of male subordinates (which I was not aware of when I posted above) only adds to my dislike, disgust with and lack of respect for her.
Ex-PH2 you also posted “Maybe I could go have a screaming match with her. I think I could handle her.”
Ex, she would be totally out of her league with you. That’s a shouting match she would not walk away from happy.
Fuck HER. I hope she gets totally BONED.
Has anyone called her a Cunt yet?
Control F + “cunt”…not found…..
Good…
CUNT.
/pardon me Lionesses of TAH but if ANYONE deserves this tag besides Jane Fonda, it’s this person.
Cunt, whistling twatwaffle, spoiled whiny brat, bitch on wheels, bad actor — all apply to both of them. And I’m doing my best to be nice here.
Wow …
Well, that escalated quickly…
Based on what I’ve read from your comments here, that’s a no-brainer. I think not only should you do it but you should sell tickets to the event 😉
Golf. Fucking. Clap.
Back in my day, particularly on the boat, we had an expression that went, “Get some time on the pond, nub.” Basically it meant that until you had BTDT long enough to get qualified and do a deployment or two, your opinion was just south of useless.
So imagine the relationship I had with a lot of recruiters (mostly CRF) who hadn’t SEEN a ship in a decade or more who MIGHT have ONE Sea Service Ribbon telling guys like me who had just done nearly 8 years at sea and 5 SSDRs what it’s like in the fleet.
So it goes with the former Sergeant Major. She needs to realize she is taking on something she can’t win.
“termagant” – Gawd, I am awestruck. Please use words like that forever.
Can you imagine if this had been me?
US Attorney to Judge: “Sir, we ask that dismiss this law suit. MCPO’s civil rights were not violated, he just plain EF’d up royally. In addition, as a former member of the Armed Forces he is not permitted seek damages as per the Feres doctrine”.
MCPO’s Lawyer: “We most strenuously object Judge … his civil rights have been violated”.
MCPO’s Former CO: Stands up and yells, “he is a freckled faced Irish dumbass, he screwed up … End of story … PERIOD”.
MCPO: Mumbling to himself, “he has a point there”.
Sounds like her entire career was based upon getting what she wanted and when she didn’t while at the very top, racism!
This may explain everything:
Is it just me or…does that white guy resemble MCPO rather closely?
Ah … Be careful. I dislike all people equally and fairly without regard for anything.
Now you’re just scaring me. And here I thought that was Sam Elliott.
This might explain it a wee bit more betterer:
Master Chief, That sums her up in 2 minutes 47 seconds. NO LEADERSHIP ABILITIES, whatsoever.
But perhaphs they may some it all best:
Sam Elliott = Sex!
So since we are the subject of separating the boys from the girls … I meant to say, separating the men from the woman screaming sexism, racial what ever and other crazy stuff … I found a great website:
http://www.artofmanliness.com/
I think it’s absolutely ridiculous when someone like her and many others are able to attain such a rank with out a deployment. I went to WLC and saw a Master Sergeant that was assigned to that particular training unit, decorated like a Christmas tree, but missing a deployment patch. It made me sick to think someone like him was training me to become a better NCO when I already led men in combat and earned my CIB.
I’d call her a TURD, but someone might think I am or call me a racist…
/sarc
How about the following instead:
screeching harpy
screaming bitch on wheels
mullet-eyed shrew
needs to have her mouth sewn shut
blindingly vile harridan
DEAD-BORING OLD SOW
I bow to your superior creativity of insults M’lady of Languages 😀
Wow … Someone warn me in advance if there is ever a chance I end up on EX-PH2’s (Theresa L. Swernzy) bad boy list!
Please warn me!
No chance of that, Master Chief.
Not sure if thats the real deal and you slipped,,,, certain people may try to jump all over that Identification of PH-2
OldDog, that’s about as likely to happen as Mikey having kittens and nursing them.
Theresa … I checked out the Swernzy family crest. It looks a lot the O’Fuet crest from Kerry. Just sayin’.
Ex…I checked out the Swernzy family crest too. It is a beautiful, strong, roaring lioness in front of a bunch of slaughtered men! Blood everywhere. It was a vision of beauty. Just like you! 😀
Jeez. I got nothing on this dame, not after watching Plumley amd Moore at West Point and a few other vids, courtesy of MSPO’s 2:42 p.m. post. Sonofabitch. Men would follow those two into Hell itself, and that’s exactly where they went. This dame–I forgot her name all ready.
I love the quote by Plumley, “Sir, Custer was a pussy, you’re not”.
That is a SENIOR ENLISTED speak!
Maybe it’s a bit nitpicky but I would distinguish the terms “combat veteran” from “war veteran.” All combat veterans are war veterans but the reverse is not true.
Even in my case, I don’t call myself a “combat veteran” I call myself a “war veteran” because I deployed to the war zone. But I never engaged in “combat” so I don’t really think I rate that appellation. I was in MI and in Afghanistan I did all my fighting with a computer.
In Kuwait the only thing I fought was boredom, useless bureaucracy, and stupid rules. And I lost every time.
Maybe Bernath can represent her. Just a thought, he can leverage the fact that he is not, never was nor will he ever be a Senior Enlisted Leader or a respected lawyer in good standing or a skilled pilot. Just a thought … “Talk agmongst you’re selves”.
100 Obama Care credits to the person who gets the reference above.
Mike Myers SNL in Coffee Talk with Linda Richman. Do I get an Obamaphone now!!!???
Like buttah!!
Outstanding. See Hondo for award!
I’m all verklempt
Combat patch and deployments aside, I’d bet dollars to donuts she was pulling some shady shit that got her canned.
She was an E-9 eligible for retirement. Instead of charging her they had her step down and ride it out.
I saw the same thing happen to a Sgt Major in the Marines who was of a much higher billet then hers and had more credentials. He was married and banged a big mouth broad who worked at the PX.
He was smart enough to take his pension and keep his mouth shut.
Her… not so much.
Because she’s the kind of E-9 that thinks she can make “E-10”
I really just do not get this…maybe its because I was a Deep Water Challenged Sailor, but really, I just don’t get it.
She made it to the top as a female in the historically male dominated world of the Military and she’s pulling this crap. When I was in, there was MAYBE a handful of E-6’s and above. It was a massive accomplishment to do that and a huge amount of hard work to get the respect from one’s counterparts.
It has taken years and now this twat nugget has just set it all back 30 years.
I don’t normally wish or hope for bad things to happen to people, but for her, I hope she fries and loses everything.
TC, she has set it back 60 years to the period between Korea and Vietnam.
I knew many young black women who enlisted in the Navy and saw it as an opportunity to do something with their lives, and that was during the time of so-called women’s lib and the civil rights movement.
This ungrateful, snarling brat is standing on the shoulders of women who put in real time without complaining when she was still an egg in her mother’s ovaries.
She’s an embarrassment to women, period.
Agreed Ex-PH2, she certainly has and should be ashamed and embarrassed for what she has done.
Course a twat slap or two wouldn’t hurt either.
I still won’t judge a Soldier based on the presence or absence of a combat patch. I’ve seen both poor and excellent people in either category.
In regards to avoiding a decade of war in either theater, that’s kinda’ framing that characterization isn’t it?
I’ve seen E-5s with more service medals from various deployments that would rival a General. I’ve seen an Infantry SGM that had no combat patch. The SGM was a true leader and I was lucky to deploy to Afghanistan under him. It comes down to the individual.
Everyone on this forum knows that awards don’t bestow characteristics to an individual. When people generalize about how someone could avoid a deployment in 13 years of conflict, I have to pause. Yeah, the question is pertinent in some cases but I give greater credence to my observations about the individual in question.
But I’m not going to defend CSM King. For fuck’s sake!
Training combat vets without being a combat vet? These dudes are all stealing my schtick! can’t a faker like me get a break around here?
I need to file a lawsuit against these fakers who have out-faked my own lies!
Insincerely,
John “Faker 6” Giduck
Military Corruption had the scoop on this sack o’ shit back when the Army was first trying to hide the details….
http://www.militarycorruption.com/csmteresaking.htm
I learned long ago, there are two types of E-9s. Those that “think” they can make E-10 and those that “know” they can’t.
She’s definitely one that thinks she can. She must if she thinks making E-9 and CSM and Commandant of the DS School is her being discriminated against.
The problem is, she’ll keep playing the victim card and even if all her dirty secrets are publicized, there will be defenders out there that call the Army Racist and Anti-Woman because she was fired for them.
There is also another component to what you are saying. You are using the terminology. There is a big difference between an E9 and a Sargent Major. She is definitely an E9 and I would not even follow her to the bathroom, let alone Combat. A Sergent Major is another story, people follow them to Hell while whistling. So when we in the Navy say that they will someday make a GREAT E7, that is a kiss of death, we want Chiefs. Who the Hell needs e7’s
I concur, there are a lot of different ways to speak it. But at the end of the day, she’s looking to make herself more comfortable regardless of the cost to others.
Always interesting hearing the Navy perspective though, such the grandiose difference there between a PO and a Chief. We have a bit of it too, but not so much as the Navy.
Another thing thats slightly weird to me. Although it may be a bit prestigiuos as far as a “shiny” billet, Is being the SNCOIC/Commandant of a DS accademy the pinnacle of success for an E-9 almot at service limitations?
Maybe its an Army-USMC difference in how things are looked at. The USMC has two DI Schools, Parris Island and San Diego. There was no enlisted “commandant” The OIC and AOIC were a Major and a Captain, respectively, but there were not involved very much.
The Sr Enlisted was usually a 1st Sgt with maybe 2-3 years in grade and about 20 in Service. It was considered to be a good post to pick up Sgt Major, but not one for a 30 year Sgt Major to be at.
Marine Sgt Majors at 30 years were at Div, Base, FSSG, Wing or FMF PAC/LANT billets.
It is a big deal in the Army. Same as our NCO Academies are run solely by enlisted. (no Commissioned Officers to speak of) The Commandant is a CSM and the deputy is an E-9 as well, maybe sometimes a 1SG.
There are higher level E-9 billets for the Army, but there are only so many NCO Academies and it is a particularly good posting on the “check the block” page of a career.
Maybe she should visit the hardware store….
“I just don’t get it. She made it to the top as a female in the historically male dominated world of the Military and she’s pulling this crap”
Odd are she made it this far pulling the same crap. Likely promoted so she could be someone else’s problem child.
So I dug into the available info about senior enlisted women, and behold!!! I found a Marine who is the 2014 Enlisted Woman of the Year.
http://www.imef.marines.mil/News/NewsArticleDisplay/tabid/3963/Article/161940/marine-wins-woman-of-the-year.aspx
Here’s a quote about her: “Beyond the fact that she’s driven, I think one of the things that impresses me the most is that regardless of age, rank, time in service or gender, she treats every Marine as a Marine,” said 1st Sgt. David McKinley, the company first sergeant of Headquarters and Support Company. “Everybody always says nice things about people, but the reality is she actually exudes those qualities that we’re looking for.”
There’s a 2013 date on this video but it is an interview with Command Master Chief Evelyb ‘Vonn’ Banks.
http://www.federaltimes.com/VideoNetwork/2717246041001/Senior-enlisted-woman-in-the-Navy-celebrated
So that’s two senior enlisted women who are achievers without being idiots. Oh, yes: they’re African American, too. So much for race and gender bias.
I can find more, in anyone is interested.
I did my time in the active Navy on a SSBN, and I’m now a reservist. Most of the long term types in my reserve unit have a combat zone deployment at some point or active duty fleet service, even the AGCM who’s going to retire.
Me, I’ve got a patrol pin with far too few stars, and understand the important thing is going out and deploying. To avoid that is just darn foolish.