The McVeigh zombie in the New York Times
In the pages of the New York Times, another Leftist egg head, Kathleen Belew reminds us of Timothy McVeigh and his military service in the wake of the unreasonable coverage that Frazier Glenn Miller has spawned with his killing spree last Sunday. Ms. Belew is apparently working on a book about Vietnam veterans and the “radical right” whatever that means. But of course, in her closing paragraphs, she reminds us about Timothy McVeigh’s bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City;
Mr. Miller obviously represents an extreme, both in his politics and in his violence. A vast majority of veterans are neither violent nor mentally ill. When they turn violent, they often harm themselves, by committing suicide. But it would be irresponsible to overlook the high rates of combat trauma among the 2.4 million Americans who have served in our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the full impact of which has not yet materialized.
[…]
During Mr. Miller’s long membership in the white power movement, its leaders have robbed armored cars, engaged in counterfeiting and the large-scale theft of military weapons, and carried out or planned killings. The bombing by Timothy J. McVeigh, an Army veteran, of the federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995, which killed 168 people, was only the most dramatic of these crimes. When we interpret shootings like the one on Sunday as acts of mad, lone-wolf gunmen, we fail to see white power as an organized — and deadly — social movement.
That Mr. Miller was able to carry out an act of domestic terror at two locations despite his history of violent behavior should alarm anyone concerned about public safety. Would he have received greater scrutiny had he been a Muslim, a foreigner, not white, not a veteran? The answer is clear, and alarming.
Miller left the military in 1979, so somehow I don’t think that 35 years later, his service as a company clerk in Vietnam had much to do with what he did last Sunday. Timothy McVeigh was a Bradley gunner in Desert Storm. Since I was trained in the same specialty, I can attest with some measure of authority that nothing he did that day in Oklahoma City was part of his training in the Army.
Much to the chagrin of the Southern Poverty Law Center and it’s adherents, the military doesn’t teach soldiers to be terrorists as a general rule. As Ms. Belew carefully points out, most veterans are not a danger to the general society and their only real example of one who was, is McVeigh and it’s fairly tiring that they drag out his rotting corpse and wave it like a bloody shirt.
I don’t know of one veteran who defends McVeigh and his actions. I served in the same division with McVeigh during Desert Storm and, as I said, I went through some of the same training and I have never plotted in my head or out of my head to do what he did. I take offense at being compared to him, as I’m sure all veterans take offense.
She asks if law enforcement isn’t inherently racist because Miller hasn’t been picked up before Sunday because he was white. Does she suggest that everyone who is suspected of a crime with no proof be picked up and tossed in jail, because there were a couple of stank-ass hippies who plotted some bombings in Ohio in the last few years that support my contention that stank-ass white hippies should be tossed in jail. Why isn’t Ms. Belew writing a book about Occupation stank-ass hippies who are plotting to blow up America?
Category: Veterans Issues
“When we interpret shootings like the one on Sunday as acts of mad, lone-wolf gunmen, we fail to see white power as an organized — and deadly — social movement.”
One word for her…RACIST! You can stand up and say what you want if you are brown, black or yellow about the whites. But if you are white and even utter the words you are proud of your heritage…you are a white supremacist racist.
She does not address the Black Panthers, or Louis Farrakhan and I quote him “White people are potential humans – they haven’t evolved yet.” Intelligent stank ass hippies out to blow up nuclear plants, drive stakes in trees to injure or kill lumberjacks and generally put us back into Tee Pee living with no power or anything except “a dreamland green world”.
Farrakhan, like all black Muslims, believes that whites were created in a laboratory by an evil scientist named Dr. Yacub. Google it if you feel like breaking your monitor.
You are jesting, right?
No. That’s 100% true. Google Dr. Yakub or Yacub and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
Holy Lord of Heaven!
I did … I already knew Farrakhan was a flaming racist, but this … that’s sick.
Right up there with the Mormons belief that black folks are the descendents of Cain, and cursed. The black skin being the “mark.”
I certainly agree with what you say about how the media views veterans, but I’d disagree with your assessment about the role McVeigh’s training played in what he did. He went through Sapper School while he was still in the army (before it became an official army course with the tab; I think that was in the mid-90s). It showed up in the bomb; one of the things the media never caught on to was just how well-made it was. Not just anybody could have done that. Now obviously this shouldn’t color our perceptions of veterans as a whole, but the assessment of McVeigh as being a trained killer who went to the dark side with disastrous consequences has some basis in reality IMHO.
I’m sorry, but I have to call BS on your “sapper school” story. As far as I know, there was no such school in the Army in those days.
And even if it did exist, why would an infantryman be sent to a school for combat engineers?
John you may need to retract the BS flag. When I was an young E-4 at Ft Leonard Wood in 1991-92, there was indeed a course called the Sapper Leaders Course, it was for certain engineering MOS NCOs and officers. This was before they started giving out the Sapper tab
OK, but McVeigh was an Infantry Bradley gunner at Fort Riley. I doubt they would have sent him. I was also an infantryman at the time and didn’t know the school even existed.
I remember seeing a show on History Channel or Bio about McVeigh. It said he tried out for SF, but washed out of SFAS. Maybe the OP got that mixed up with something else.
If my military history holds, the Sapper course has existed since the mid-90s when the army centralized the school and created the Sapper Tab. Before that, it was an unofficial army course that was run at unit level, like Marine Scout Sniper School was run at Corps and Division level before it got centralized. McVeigh attended it then; it might not show up in his records for that reason.
I can’t find anything that supports your contention that he attended a sapper school. There was no need for his unit to expend the money or time for such training, since the training is mainly for engineers. I’m pretty sure that if there was such a school, as an infantry platoon sergeant, I would have been made aware of it.
Alright, I stand corrected.
Almost. You’re correct that the Sapper Leader’s Course was a local school at FLWMO up until the mid-90’s when it was made a DA School. I was at FLWMO for DS School in 95 and a couple of my partners there were former Sapper School instructors and they told me that the school was ramping up for DA certification. The Sapper tab was authorized for wear later, around 2004 or so.
The Army would not have sent him to sapper school since he was infantry and not one of the required 12 series (at that time) MOSs, besides the school was not well known. Additionally, school really keyed on creating and clearing minefields, obstacles, and enemy wire barriers, and not making HME bombs.
In 1997 when we returned from our MFO mission in Egypt, my unit had a E-4 (11B) go to divers school as a reenlistment reward.
you couldnt be any more incorrect. i attended sapper school in 2004 and vividly remember timothy mcV’s name/signature inscribed on the wall. blow it was his self titled nickname “Ghost Recon”
Mcviegh’s bomb had no Military components. He and others were self taught bomb makers, reading books and experimenting.
i need to post (again). you are all incorrect. he did attend the school. in the school, students are taught how to make certain “field expedient” explosive related items. it is confirmed he used some of that knowledge in his attack.
as for “an infantry guy in sapper school” it was very common at the time. in that era of sapper school entire units went. it wasnt a school for “individuals” where one could earn a tab. it was a course (attended by engineers and infantry, among some other combat MOS’s) meant to build unit cohesion, small unit tactics, etc.
Here’s a news flash for ya, Kathleen Belew: The color of my skin, my shoe size, my blood type, and a multitude of other traits over which I have no control say absolutely nothing about me other than the facts of my skin color, shoe size, blood type, etc.
Your assumptions base upon my skin color, or whatever other factors you choose, DOES say quite a lot about you, Ms Belew. It’s called prejudice.
If this piece was supposed to prove your open mindedness, you failed.
I am certain that Ms. Belew would be extremely offended if someone offered the following wisdom: “When we view robberies and murders in the inner city as individual acts of criminality we fail to see black gangs as deadly, organized social movements.”
One could further carry that argument to state that using New York City as an example the abysmal failure of every liberal social experiment forced on black Americans has resulted in violent criminal gangs being the only place that young black males are able to find a male role model.
That statement is accurate with respect to the statistical evidence that three quarters of black males live in a female only head of household environment, which could cause one to ascertain with 75% accuracy that it bears a direct correlation to the reality that 90% of all homicides in NYC are caused by black or hispanic males from said households. Those numbers are well above the statistically significant thresholds for causal relationship considerations.
However it is extremely insulting to the millions of black males who successfully transition from that environment to become law abiding, tax paying citizens and disregards other underlying economic and social issues that are causally related to this problem of urban criminality.
Instead she would prefer to talk about a statistically insignificant number of a select population as a method to indict an entire population segment because it suits her political methodology. Her “research” carries about as much scientific credibility as the creation museum.
That is an amazing point VOV. You should post that first paragraph in the comments of the original story and see how long it takes for it to be moderated.
Ms. Belew is the type of writer who finds white racists everywhere. While I don’t necessarily disagree that she is wrong about certain systemic racial concepts that manifest themselves in unexpected passages her type of research invariably produces her expected outcome. She would also refuse to accept that my observations were a direct corollary to her observations only using a different perpetrator group and statistical set. My observations actually use a statistically significant data set and hers do not.
I would speculate that even with my larger data set the conclusions are not appropriately accurate to the statistical information but are more clearly supported than her far less accurate conclusions and statistically insignificant data set.
There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics…..
I couldn’t have put it any better. In fact I am going to C&P your comments (with your permission) to be retooled and used by me in the future. And I fantasize that somehow, somewhere, someone will print out your comments, flipped about the X axis, staple them to this “author’s” forehead, and show her to bathroom so she can read them in the mirror at the sink.
feel free to cut and paste to your heart’s content my friend….
VOV – as a frequent lurker (only post rarely), I always enjoy and appreciate your insight. I usually learn something, too.
Trained killer? might want to back down on that a bit, technically almost any MOS training either leads to or supports those who kill, but does not make them “trained killers’ Very Tom Cruise-ish.
Regardless, I do feel there is ‘way too much emphasis on the exceptions rather than the norms. Not that I defend their stance, but I have known a BUNCH of bigoted racist folks who have not the slightest inclination to be violent toward whatever group they oppose. i think the labeling is ‘way overblown, and simply the fact that someone is racist does not automatically mean they are a slavering at the mouth wild dog itching to murder babies, mommies, etc. Matter of fact, I would issue a challenge to any and all: if someone can say they know may members of any race or group and say they have never met or heard of any member of that group who wasn’t to some discernable degree racist – please let me know. Try to keep a straight face.
Trained killer? might want to back down on that a bit, technically almost any MOS training either leads to or supports those who kill, but does not make them “trained killers’ Very Tom Cruise-ish.
Regardless, I do feel there is ‘way too much emphasis on the exceptions rather than the norms. Not that I defend their stance, but I have known a BUNCH of bigoted racist folks who have not the slightest inclination to be violent toward whatever group they oppose. i think the labeling is ‘way overblown, and simply the fact that someone is racist does not automatically mean they are a slavering at the mouth wild dog itching to murder babies, mommies, etc. Matter of fact, I would issue a challenge to any and all: if someone can say they know may members of any race or group and say they have never met or heard of any member of that group who wasn’t to some discernable degree racist – please let me know. Try to keep a straight face.
It’s been asserted that he was Special Forces qualified (by virtue of his primary MOS listing 71L4S), which if true, would make him a “trained killer”. SEALs used to go by their primary Navy rating before the SO rating was created a few years ago, so a Boatswain’s Mate SEAL was normal. Perhaps his Special Forces Clerk MOS was also valid for his time period. Not being Army, I can’t validate that.
No, it didn’t work like that and its why I’m confused about the identifier on a clerk MOS. Most SF qualified people in 1979 were in an MOS related to their position in the team (11B, 12B, 91B, etc…) I have no idea why a clerk would SF qualified. That’s why I’m waiting for his records.
Enlisted had an S identifier after their MOS (eg. O5B3S 91B4S etc.).
That was true pre-1984, beretverde. When the 18-series CMF became effective, I believe those with the S identifier were awarded the MOS instead and the S identifier was temporarily withdrawn from use.
The S-identifier was later reinstituted for use as an identifier for those non-18-series personnel with experience in SF support, and is used that way today. It no longer imples SF qual. Not sure when the S-identifier was reinstituted, but I don’t think it was effective in the early 1990s. I’m pretty sure it had been by 2000, though.
Either way, McVeigh served when successful completion of SF training would have given him an 18-series PMOS. He left service as an 11H.
No, he never went to the Q-Course; he tried to but the army turned him down after the psych interview, classifying him as being unfit for SF, if I recall correctly.
HS Sophomore: other accounts I’ve read say he “dropped out” after 3 days. Either way, however, McVeigh never completed SFQC.
I believe you mean SFAS. In order to fail out of SFQC, he would first have to pass SFAS.
It’s entirely possible the accounts I read said SFAS vice SFQC and I misspoke above.
In any case, it’s a moot point. McVeigh was never SF and never completed SF training. Period.
Now, now, folks – don’t be so hard on Ms. Belew here. She’s obviously to be pitied, as she’s operating under an extreme disability.
She’s viewing the world through race-tinted glasses. Doing so makes correctly perceiving reality virtually impossible.
Indeed, wearers of such glasses see a racist behind every tree – whether they’re actually there or not.
Ironically, racists such as KKK diehards and other white supremacists share the same affliction. Their race-tinted glasses just are a different shade from those Ms. Belew wears.
Just one of many problems with which we must deal from racists, bigots, and the otherwise deluded.
And when she sees a white guy behind the tree he is a racist. This is both a distinction and a difference.
Just remember, it can only be racist if it’s white. Like I had a choice in the color of my skin when I was born. I for one am sick of being demonized.
Having lived many years where white is a minority, I can personally attest to the fact that racism is alive and well in all cultures.
But to the apologists who hate themselves for their “white privilege” they can only see in one color.
How conveninet it is that Ms. Belew forgets the bad behavior of the SDS and the Weather Underground in the 1960s and 1970s, and the pipe bomb factory that blew up almost an entire block of houses in 1974.
It’s a real shame that she’s got such memory loss, because those were left-wing terrorists with Abi Hoffman at their head.
Should I write a rebuttal to her story? Or would that hurt her feelings?
Please, please, PLEASE hurt her feelings, Ex! Beat, bruise, burn, degrade, denigrate, and defile her feelings! She thinks it’s okay to do it to others, so it’s only fair that she get a taste of her own!
Granted, your demonstrated linguistic sparring ability means that it won’t even be a fair fight, but so what? Slay the bitch! Don’t hold back!
I’m waiting for the human race as a whole to just look and realize that, when you break us down to our most basic level, we have the same DNA base. We’re all humans, Homo Sapiens, and that’s what matters.
I believe in humanity, and I can’t wait to see the day when we move past this stupid petty race baiting and start realizing we’re all equal.
The left will continue to block that from happening. They are too invested in their misguided prejudice that everyone who is non-white and non-liberal needs their protection. Best I can determine is that the only thing Americans need protection from is the left.
Sadly, Farflung Wanderer, I’m kinda pessimistic that we’ll ever see that.
Racism seems to me to be simply yet another manifestation of tribalism. Tribalism – along with distain for and hostility towards those outside one’s own “tribe” – seems to be a human trait that’s as old as humanity itself. My guess it’s one of the things that allowed a relatively small and weak – but dextrous and smart – species such as ourselves to become the planet’s apex predators.
Individually, we humans are not particularly imposing; a leopard or cougar can easily kill any one of us if we’re unarmed, and if armed with anything besides a high-powered firearm it’s still a good bet the cat wins. But working together as a team – and using our brains to arm ourselves well beyond what nature gave us – well, then we humans become damned formidable.
That part of our nature helped us survive and thrive when and where bigger, stronger species could not. It let us become dominant on this planet.
But it also gave us tribal conflict – or to use a different term, war.
We may be able to suppress that innate tendency – to a point. But I’m not optimistic that we’ll ever see it disappear from humanity.
There are simply “bad apples” in every institution. Police, banking, politics, etc…are all not immune to idiots.Unfortunately (or fortunately?) clowns in these walks off life, who act the fool, get the press.
Occam’s Razor indicates that McVeigh [spit] didn’t blow up a building full of innocent people because he was a “troubled veteran” or “trained killer,” he did it because he was a tremendous asshole.
Miller demonstrated for decades that he, like McVeigh, was also a tremendous asshole long before he murdered anybody. So now that he’s a multiple murderer they want us to ignore the obvious.
In Ms Belew’s case, we should probably apply Heinlein’s Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
I always feel so left out when people refer to the military as ‘trained killers’. I’m medical; Shouldn’t I get the same broad brush discrimination that the combat arms do? I did qualify with an M9 once, you know, and I’m pretty sure that I could kill someone with a bad batch of tylenol, or maybe force some private to drink so much water that he collapses, or maybe even paper cut someone so badly that they get light headed filling out forms in the TMC. Trained killer, that’s me! Almost as dangerous as the 42A!
Liberals think that everyone in the Military are door kickers. Apparantly we have cooks out there clearing rooms.
No wonder everybody wants to be like us. We’ve got that “Rambo, Steven Segal, Christopher Walken” look to us which makes us all bad-asses. Audie Murphy didn’t look much like a bad-ass though. What’s up with that??
Well, we did have that one time where the cook took the battelship back from some terrorists at the captain’s birthday party…some girl was in a cake and she had to help the cook…there was some documentary about it as I recall.
New York what?
Kathleen who?
Kathleen blew somebody I think….
Man, that was just mean. 😛
In the liberal mindset, if you’re White and don’t feel guilty about it, you’re a racist, plain and simple. That’s why I say BE HUMANE, SPAY AND NEUTER YOUR LIBERALS!!
Her story that war makes veterans become crazed “Racists!” only proves that an overly cushly spoiled existence produces crazed idiotic liberals.