Discharges of combat troops increase
The Associated Press reports that discharges for minor offenses are on the rise in the military in recent months.
The newspaper reported Sunday that the investigation based on Army data found that annual misconduct discharges have increased more than 25 percent since 2009, mirroring the rise in wounded. Among combat troops, the increase is even sharper.
Total discharges at the eight Army posts that house most of the service’s combat units have increased 67 percent since 2009.
“I’ve been working on this since the 70s, and I have never seen anything like this,” said Mark Waple, a retired Army officer who now tries military cases as a civilian lawyer near North Carolina’s Fort Bragg. “There seems to be a propensity to use minor misconduct for separation, even for service members who are decorated in combat and injured.”
Of course, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Marty Dempsey, disagrees that the military is drawing down for financial by booting their wounded first;
“I can tell you that 10-plus years of war has placed significant stress on many of our service members, sometimes manifesting itself in their health and even their discipline,” he said. “We go to great lengths to try to rehabilitate those who don’t meet or maintain required standards prior to initiating separation.”
An Army spokesman said the military branch does not track the number of soldiers wounded in war who were later kicked out.
I guess that’s Marty’s way of reassuring us that the government isn’t balancing the budget on the backs of veterans, like the President told us he wouldn’t, but then did.
I hope these generals remember that it was the combat veterans who stayed after Vietnam who trained the force that went to Iraq in 1991. The Colin Powells, the Schwarzkopfs, the McMasters, and the nameless thousands who became squad leaders and platoon sergeants and taught my generation how to soldier.
Category: Veterans Issues
We have also seen in recent years reports of lack of dicsipline, and related discipline issues throughout the army. DUI’s, drug abuse, etc… all on the rise. Is it the Army balancing their budget on the soldiers back, or is it a lack of discipline that has lead to the rise of criminal actions and the repercussions of those? maybe a combination of the two?
I am an Army prosecutor and I can definitely attest to this. We have cases of Soldiers with a Purple Heart, Bronze Star, four deployments, and lasting injuries, and we’re still expected to get them a General Under Honorable Conditions discharge for one hot urinalysis.
When we argue to a board, the presumption is already in our favor that the Soldier should be kicked. “After all, why would they be at a board if they hadn’t done something wrong and earned the chance to be here?”
Unfortunately for the good Soldiers who deserve to stay (which is many of the folks getting kicked), there are a few true problem children that use every excuse to explain their behavior. PTSD? Check. Stress on their family? Check. Too many deployments? Check. The argument becomes so common that PTSD is now “pre-trial stress disorder” — the thing you come up with as your only defense.
Does true PTSD excuse criminal behavior? No way. Did the Army bring in a lot of guys with pre-existing problems, give them all waivers, and send them to deploy for years on end? Absolutely. Surely the misconduct should be weighed against the sacrifices they have made, and should be put in the context of over a decade of war.
All that said, you’ll get zero tolerance from me when it comes to Officers. If you want the rank, the pay and the salute, you get the higher standard when it comes to your misconduct. There is nothing wrong with chaptering out an Officer for something that may only be a counseling statement for a junior enlisted.
I don’t know about this. According to the Duffel Blog, you can get discharged for having you hands in you pockets. Everything is true on that site right? (satire) If this pans out to be true (the story mentioned here), I feel sad to what budget cuts have done to my Army. I wouldn’t put it past the bean counters in D.C. to back door this kind of BS.
Well, it’s quite obvious, isn’t it? We just don’t need them any more, so let’s get rid of them.
In fact, why not just get rid of the military altogether? It’s so expensive.
@1 Ah, discipline..Where my son is, they are forbidden to use physical corrective punishment. Literally, a soldier can tell you FU and all you can do is write them up. My own son was reported for racism by a PFC although nothing came of it because it was such BS, but it is a now considered a tool. In my other sons platoon, only 4 can pass a PT test. He doesn’t even have to show up in the mornings because the majority is doing remedial pt. I talked to son #1 yesterday and his buddy is getting the screws up to him, possible art. 15 and demotion for a seat belt violation. If they’re not kicking you out they are most certainly driving them out with harassment, they let the big things go and focus on the minutia.
Remember Barry telling the Russians to wait until after the election? Maybe this is what he meant…
Not unexpected. “Tightening up on standards” and an accompanying increase in admin separations is eminently predictable during a time the military can be selective in enlistments (due to poor economic conditions) and/or when the military is reducing end-strength. Seems to me it happened post-Vietnam and during the Clinton-era “peace dividend” days, too.
That doesn’t mean it’s always the right thing to do – just that history means it’s predictable.
Yes, it did happen after Vietnam. So what you’ll end up with is a bunch of sea/sand laywers and (maybe, if we’re lucky) a few good men and women.
#5,
The days of NCOs meting out physical or “extreme” punishment (e.g. “smoking” or “GI’ing” a room) are gone. Technically, there is little more to do than start building a packet–counseling after counseling until the chain of command pushed UCMJ. I much prefer verbal counseling, and have been moderately successful at getting troubled Soldiers squared away before their antics harm their careers, but some individuals only learn through repetition and muscle memory.
The “zero tolerance” stuff can be extremely asinine; my unit has a policy of giving a field grade Article 15 to anyone who is caught driving 7 mph or more over the speed limit in the garrison area, or 12 mph or more over in the training areas. It doesn’t matter if you are passing a logging truck or merely missed a reduced speed ahead sign, nor does it matter if you had an impeccible driving record prior to the stop.
And will we be surprised when we end up with a “hollow army”, unable to defend or respond fo anything??
@10: That’s what happened when Reagan took over. He had to spend money on not only new equipment, but raising training standards and re-building a hollowed out military. Bush Jr. did the same. Then, the leftists point to how they increased spending on the military as though it was all to buy new big bang toys. They never look at how much it costs to outfit, train, feed, house, and pay a soldier and don’t understand is that is where most of the costs reside.
The truth of the matter is I have seen plenty of Soldiers chaptered for misconduct and the biggest contributing factor is LACK OF DISCIPLINE, and the fact that a lot of today’s NCO’s were promoted too soon, on the Soldiers part they fail to understand that garrison is a whole different ballgame than deployment, they have to learn to “flip the switch” when they return, and many fail to do so, on the NCO’s part, they fail the SM by not teaching the Army Values, as well as regulation is not just a bunch of words to repeat, but to live by, today’s young SM is not privy to how the Army functioned BEFORE the war…….
and to #9, unless the Army has changed since 09, you are wrong about the NCO’s “smoking” Joe, at least in the Infantry, corrective training was a big part in every unit I was in, all the corrective training in the world won’t stop a drunken Soldier from fighting down town, or using drugs, today’s new Soldier is not being taught the WHOLE aspect of what being a Soldier is really about, refer to my last comment..
My son had gone in and LOVED the Army from day 1…he loved reception, lol. He has reached the time where the decision to re-up is upon him. He told them no. Last week they moved him to a another unit, Friday while doing the paper work, they said, You’re going to want to stay now. He’s told them No I’m not. I don’t know why they moved him, the new unit requires several schools and there is not enough time left in his contract to warrant them. His biggest thing is the attitude. He can’t stand the whining and lack of discipline. He gets so frustrated, you signed a contract, you knew what you were getting into, just do the job.
I had planned on doing more than 20 until I got sent to the post where motivation goes to die. Now as soon as I get the job I want I will be dropping my retirement packet.
The shitcanning for any legit (or not) reason happened during the Clinton years too. Maintenance went to shit, we got the “work harder, not smarter” (Oh, did I get that backwards?) bit, and junior enlisted with their little shitty attitudes and their “I dare ya to do something” bit drove morale through the floor.
Welcome to the hollow force, circa 2013.
Enough with the discipline problems. Get your 2 quart and your pro mask and get in the laundry room, NOW!
I really wish y’all can give me insight because I’m just a Mom. I have 3 boys, raised with if you want it, earn it. No excuses and no whining. Son #2, he has nothing but rave reviews by his leadership while in Korea, gets sent to Ft. Bliss. He is Airborne qualified, has a 311 pt. score, 112 GT, scored in the high 70 percentile on his ASVAB and shoots expert. 6 weeks at Bliss, they nominate him for Soldier of the quarter and he wins…They said Infantry never wins. He came in 2nd in the next round, soldier of the brigade or something. Here he is, working his butt off and what does he do all day? Mops the floors….many in his platoon are either on remedial PT or sick call. How do you continue to pump someone up and tell them just keep working hard…..to mop the floors?
@18 – Back when I was enlisted, a lot of stellar Soldiers did that kind of work until they became an NCO. That’s just the way it was. You build that foundation of hard work and attention to detail in garrison, and when he is a Team Leader or a Squad Leader, he has credibility with his Soldiers because he has done the things he requires them to do. We never had janitors in the Infantry. We took care of our place on our own. You use it, you clean it. This was just part of daily life, aside from all the training we did. Tell your son to keep his head up and do what his Team Leader, Squad Leader, and Platoon Sergeant tell him to do, and one day he will be an NCO too and will understand the whole environment a little bit better.
As a Nam Vet,I have seen this before. Any reason for discharge, add medical to show the door. Threats of NJP or formal charges usually do not have any fear effect on those who been in combat. The Nam vets used to say “what are you going to do cut my hair and send me to Nam.” Politcos never learn from History just keep repeating the same mistakes.
This isn’t the first time this has happened, and probably won’t be the last — but dammit, that’s no way to treat our military.
Sounds like the late ’70s, too. Was not a pleasant time… I waitted to reenlist until AFTER the ’70 election to be damn sure that if Carter continued, I could do something else, like give nickel headers on street corners until I got my self repect back.
Disclosure – that “nickel headers” was stolen – back in the days of mandatory 2-day HREO training on arrival in Germany, an O-6 in the class asked an older E-8 whether he was re-upping. The line above was his response.
“Of course, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Marty Dempsey, disagrees that the military is drawing down for financial by booting their wounded first;”
Dempsey-dumpster could tell me the sky was blue, and I’d have trouble believing him at this point. He’s demonstrated his lack of integrity and willingness to put his career before anything and everything else that his word is worthless. Total Blue Falcon.
If they don’t get the guys out how will they make room for the women in the infantry?
@10 “Hollow Army” indeed….
Read the assessment of the 82nd during Grenada to get a glimpse of what the Carter years did to that unit…Schwarzkopf was not happy with performance and things were changed…but it speaks directly to what some others were saying, drawdowns that take good troopers out of trifling issues doesn’t make for a strong fighting army.
Hopefully those lessons were learned 25 years ago and this is a different scenario, time will tell.
After what Bodaprez did over the weekend, what were you guys expecting?
He has no use for the military at all. Haven’t you figured that out yet?
Honestly, I think they are using it as another tool to get guys out of the army and off their books. Now once they are out of the Army, well that is a different story.
I agree that some of it is the elimination of ash and trash from the lowered standards of the mid-00’s. But some of it seems like an invidious attempt to hollow-out the force because its not just UCMJ. It’s PME & NCOES rules that disfavor Soldiers who’ve deployed multiple times when they were eligible for certain schools. It’s garrison mentality-driven metrics that have nothing to do with real readiness. It’s entire Battle Assemblies (Drills) that are wasted on death by powerpoint to check whatever blocks need to be “green” on a slide that the company commander/1SG has to brief the the BC/CSM. In the year&1/2 since I left the active component for the Army Reserve, I’ve noticed a conspicuous hostility harbored by seniors E8-and up and O4 and up With not deployments or with non-divisional combat patches against prior-active duty juniors with them.
This post won’t say much important but @10 and @11, you are right we will have another hollowed out Army that will have to be rebuilt. I served in Vietnam and Basic and AIT were all about Army values, personal respect, respect for the Army and respect for the country. I was never the worse for wear from “smoke” sessions and taught, fair discipline. It was a draft period so some got in line with the program and some didn’t. Either case, they went and served. I have over the years been very proud of our all volunteer force. Not being a current vet I am not sure about modern day enlistment standards. @20 is right that after returning from a tour in Vietnam attitudes could be quite different towards the BS and a troops willingness to tolerate it. I am still so proud of the Army from my time to today because the problem children are still the minority. Most come home, adjust well and may even go career. It is Washington and the liberal hatred of the military that is messing up all the branches, starting at the POTUS. I hope he is out of office and a conservative fills his seat before this crap gets any worse. God bless our nation and God bless the United States Army!
@18 Thank you for raising your boys well. Tell him to keep his chin up and keep doing the exemplary job he is doing. Time and grade will change things and as someone else wrote he will have earned the respect he will need. Tell your son an old vet says God bless and thanks him for his service.
@ 18- Stand by him. So what if he’s pushing a mop and floor polisher in the barracks as long as he keeps his nose clean and does what he’s told? He’s staying out of trouble (I would hope) and still managing to set a proven good example for some hapless SOB thats in minor trouble to follow. Never know, he may even become one of those platoon sargeants that actually gives a shit about his troops.
The Army is getting smaller. For a number of reasons, and like it’s done in the past. Many times, Right or wrong. The numbers drive the lack of tolerance for what were once simple and forgivable offenses. Right now, there are around 543,000 Soldiers in the Army. Before sequestration – not as a result of it – we were told to reduce the force to 490,000 by FY17. With only natural attrition to reduce the size of the force, we’d be at 514,000 in FY17. That would still leave us 24,400 Soldiers more than we’re budgeted to pay for. How do we get rid of another 24,400 Soldiers in four years? – Raise recruiting standards. If there are recruiters out there, back me up – I’ve heard something like 1 in 10 potential recruits are picked up for Basic Training now. No more waivers, no more exemptions. Meet the standards or look for work elsewhere. – Raise board standards for promotions. Promotions that were considered “gimme’s” 5 years ago are now actually pretty selective. I have 4 Lieutenants in my Battalion who will not be Captains. They will separate from service. They didn’t kill anyone, get DUIs or do anything terrible. Their OERs simply didn’t look good enough for the CPT board. I think the selection rate at the last COL board was around 36%, compared to a 64% selection rate over the last decade. NCOs are facing the same tough standards at boards. – Reduce tolerance for overweight, drug use, or other failures to meet standards. You break the rules, you will be gone. – Selective Early Retirement Boards (SERB). They’re coming back. Lots of folks will be offered “early outs” to trim the ranks further. It sucks. With this scale of a problem, it is inevitable that the Army will bleed good Soldiers and send them away. It hurts to see those who have sacrificed for the nation get tossed aside like so many used expendables. It’s not right. But it is happening. It has happened before. It will happen again. While I’d love to pin this one… Read more »
Sorry. With just attrition, it’s 514,400 by FY17. For the math nerds who want the numbers to add up.
I would also like to add there is a difference, between discipline and having your thumb on a troop. What all has to be covered on a form to go on leave? How much micromanagement is going on now that if a soldier farts in the wrong direction it is build a counseling packet and recommend for NJP or separation?
Bottom line (up front), I think they’re screwing the troops who served. Yes, the new GI Bill is a great benefit. Add an early retirement incentive and allow time for the injured to be evaluated for med retirements. Not to paint this with too broad a brush, but the military can do better.
I don’t recall a drawdown in the 70’s, rather the units I served in were under strength. Also had crappy pay and a hard time getting funding for repair parts and training. Some crappy troops too, but I served with some sharp and tough NCOs who made do with what we had.
In the 80’s piss tests, ht/wt and APFT thinned the ranks, but we didn’t have a lot of Wounded Warriors serving like now. Pay went up, we had money for training, maintenance, new barracks and motorpools. VEAP went away, GI Bill came.
Then came the end of the Cold War and the peace dividend of the late 80’s through the 90’s. Desert Storm was in there, but was over pretty quickly and didn’t slow the exodus (much). Early retirements, tighter recruiting and retention control points were commonly used to thin the force. QMPs were up, but usually these were not one mistake and out, although DUIs or drugs generally were the end of a career. While the early retirement incentives helped take care of those leaving, many of the best and brightest took advantage of the opportunity. The economy was pretty good, but we didn’t have a generous education benefit. I think this draw down was hugely mismanaged…
“There needs to be TWO Armies, one of pretty soldiers that march sharply in parades, giving comfort to the populace, and one of Warriors that fight our wars. Because, warriors and soldiers cannot be the same, they cannot be the same Army.”
Gen. Dumpsy is ridding the Army of Warriors, of those that remember how NCO’s lead, in order to attain an Army of Soldiers, that are tolerant of those that show up, but can look pretty in a parade, at least a gay pride parade.
We will pay the price in blood, ala Task Force Smith, but his pension will be larger than his paycheck for working, so what does he care. He will have raised a tolerant Army, and that is far more important than one that can win wars, in the minds of his political taskmasters.
We can only hope that a few of the old Warriors will survive the purge, and initiate the youth in what Leadership really is, so when Our Army is needed again, it will revive itself, as did the Viet Nam NCO’s did for Soldiers of the 80’s, and the Cold War NCO’s for Afghanistan, and in preparation of the War in Afghanistan.
I will say this for the 101st guys out here. They had it O.K. to walk around without PT Belts. Now that 10th Mountain is out here, BLAMMO back to PT Belts and no wearing of Boonie Caps. Oh and PT belts must be color coded according to rank…
Just one more year to 20. I can do this…
Many on here seem to think that all these stellar troops are getting the boot. They’re not. I would argue that the majority are turd burglers. I just retired last week and spent the last year as a 1SG for an HHT. #1, it is freaking hard to put someone out of the Army if your paperwork is not straight and you did not follow the regulation to the very T. Even then sometimes it is silly hard. PT test and O/W are easy if done right, but I’d bet good money the majority of those beig put out have done something way worse. Just because someone is a combat vet, even a decorated one, does not excuse them for failing a drug test or getting a DUI. The regulation is clear, the Army is just starting to enforce the standards already in place. Wasn’t it not 5 years ago NCOs were bitching about not being able to kick dudes out because of the numbers game for deployments. #2, the no “hazing ” thing has gotten out of control. There are combat units where a soldier can no longer be forced to do push ups for failing to Address an NCO for example. The soldier has to be given a written counseling and appropriate corrective training. Think about that for a sec, sounds easy. Until you work until 1900 most nights and then go home only to be forced to spend time writing a Counseling that could have been corrected with 10 push ups. We’ve defanged our NCO Corps. We legal them to death with restrictions on what they can and cannot do. #3. The cell phone has become the death of junior leadership. Instead of a young leader making a judgment call because the senior is not there, he just kicks it up stairs. What is worse, the senior is able to micro manage from a distance. In closing I guess is that don’t be so quick to judge, there are plenty of troopers that need to go, regardless of their combat experience or what they where on their… Read more »
Some day they will throw a war and we won’t be able field a team. I’m sure the opposing side will allow us a time out to draft and train a team. Oh well, Hope and Change.
#13, In an Infantry company, you might still get by smoking a young Soldier. If the wrong person sees it, though–be they a well-indoctrinated officer or a political senior NCO–you can count on an immediate on-the-spot correction or even a counseling statement. A few (hundred) pushups and flutterkicks are one thing, but I’ll be the first to admit that sometimes a brash young SGT can get carried away, leading to more than just sore muscles. As such, I have mixed emotions about some forms of “discipline”. You are right about the overall lack of discipline in the ranks today. My years as an 11B at Campbell and in TOG instilled a “do the right thing” mentality, and when I reported to my recruiting station I was speechless when a SFC told me to take off my beret because “we don’t wear headgear around here”. I kept it on because I don’t recall an E-7 trumping Army standards, but that was just the tip of the iceberg. Some of the “NCOs” I encountered in recruiting, and even here in my current assignment, make me wonder as to the future of the Army. How can we expect junior Soldiers to respect traditions and standards when the first NCO they encounter is a Recruiter wearing non-regulation sunglasses and no headgear? Ideally, they’ll next meet a squared-away Drill Sergeant, but then if they fall under someone like the female Intel Sergeant here, they’ll once again be exposed to an overpromoted and underdeveloped NCO who acts more like a kid than a senior NCO. Oops, did I just type that? #38, Modern technology is great and the cell phone has its uses, but I know exactly what you are saying about it being detrimental to the NCO Corps. When we NCOs use our judgement, seniors get upset because we didn’t call them. Even the smallest decision must be tracked by the PSG and/or 1SG, whereas ten years ago the team leader might make a decision and stand by it. Speaking of which, as a Private at Campbell back in the day, the lack of a… Read more »
……and you bet Tommy sees….
@31, I will always stand by him. I always tell my kids, you always do your best no matter what, because giving 100% is about your own self worth and character not scoring brownie points. As for staying out of trouble…while he is not an angel, he actually was called out by his Capt. before leaving Korea because he made it through the year with a spotless record…hahaha! He’s one of those people who always sees the glass half full. Thank you!
My Division CSM came down and talked to us a couple months ago. He told us about a couple of people being selected for BDE CSM and then a little later they got selected for QSP.
It’s funny, just a few months ago, I had a SGT that failed his drug test. When doing some research, I found he had failed two others prior. Did he get kicked out? No, even though the entire COC, including me, the 1SG, the BDE commander busted him and suspended his chapter for a year. Don’t make it seem like there is a mass excodus. Dirt bags that have been beating the system are getting booted. To be honest, everyone that is an E4 or above has been deployed. Not really that special anymore. It has nothing to do with warrior spirt and everything to do with keeping good order and discipline.
The National Guard forces piss test flunkers out faster than the RA does, it has for the past few years.
@41
“For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
“But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!”
Aint that the truth Tanker, aint that the truth.
@44 But he was good enough to keep when the bodies were needed for deployments yes? If yes then it’s not beating the system, it’s the Army keeping the warm bodies when they need them and dumping when they don’t.
That speaks to the character of the individual’s leadership and core Army values just as much to the sergeant’s own inability to self discipline himself and avoid drug use.
If what he did was wrong and his punishment should have been a swift ejection then that is what should have been done the first time, not the third time. If hot p1ss tests are okay when you need the guy, it’s hard to justify them being not okay when you don’t. You either enforce the rules or you don’t. When done selectively it seems capricious and hypocritical.