Up-Armored Police
Lorenzo Franceschi-Bicchierai at The Danger Room reports that police departments across the country have gone fifty-one-fifty buying up surplus military equipment to deck themselves out in unneeded tactical finery. Tanks, helicopters, assault-style weapons that mostly collect dust. Thermal sights and infra-red and night vision goggles all lay unused on the shelves or in the trunks of patrol cars;
The Nebraska State Patrol has three amphibious eight-wheeled tanks. Acquired almost three years ago, their highest achievement has been helping with a flood last year and with a shooting a couple of weeks ago. Overall, it has been deployed five times. At least, officers love driving them. “They’re fun,” said trooper Art Frerichs to the Lincoln Journal Star in 2010. And the ride, according to Patrol Sgt. Loveless, “is very smooth.”
Yeah, yeah, I know “if it saves one life, it’s worth it” – but three tanks? Seriously? If it’s so much fun to drive tanks around, why do all of the tankers I know scowl all of the time? I’ll admit that I liked tooling around in a Bradley – but that’s why I joined the Army and not the Nebraska State Police.
Personally, having a bunch of untrained yahoos running around with assault rifles and night vision gear doesn’t make me feel all that safe. We had a company of trained experienced tankers open fire at night on a Bradley platoon, and they lived with those thermal sights every day and night, still they didn’t correctly ID their targets.
Now they get the stuff at a discount – they get it free and just pay the shipping charges – just like the “free” stuff you get on TV, but that doesn’t always work out for them;
In Tupelo, Mississippi, home to 35,000, the local police acquired a helicopter for only $7,500 through the surplus program. The chopper, however, had to be upgraded for $100,000 and it now costs $20,000 a year in maintenance.
I’m sure taxpayers are excited about that price tag. But, a helicopter at least has some daily use potential. Tanks and night-vision hardware, not so much. Nothing ever scared me so much as a private on the night fire range with NVDs for the first time. Imagine a whole police department of untrained privates running through your neighborhood with that shit on, fingers on their triggers of their assault weapons with large capacity magazines.
Category: Military issues
An “amphibious, eight-wheeled tank”? Wow, I want one of those, too.
As for helicopters, where I live, in Michigan, unless it would be a county-wide asset, available to every agency, on request, no one could afford to fly it. The cost-per-hour and maintenance would be prohibitive.
“Imagine a whole police department of untrained privates running through your neighborhood with that shit on, fingers on their triggers of their assault weapons with large capacity magazines.”
Well, Jonn, the uninformed public and a lot of LEO departments don’t like the thought of Vets running around with that stuff, either. In fact, I have been told by some of the uninformed public that I was untrained in handling firearms compared to the highly trained police officers and that me carrying a weapon was much more dangerous compared to the po-po. I still giggle at that statement, considering I train with my weapons more than most LEOs do and I trust my judgement a whole lot more than I do the police.
Living in El Paso, the local fuzz, ICE, and Border Patrol used to train and qualify at the FT Bliss Rod and Bottle Club.
It was very clear that mandatory training was the only time they ever shot their service pistols. Even those in our IDPA club were typically in the bottom 20%.
So we want to give them the ability to reach out and touch someone at much greater distances, during limited visibility, in an urban environment. How soon before someone a block away gets whacked by a stray heavy caliber bullet?
And we need those armored vehicles for the IEDs?? WTF.
“Yeah, yeah, I know ‘if it saves one life, it’s worth it’ – but three tanks?”
I’m pretty sure something similar has come up here before, and I apologize if I’m repeating myself, but no, it’s not worth it. It’s a zero sum game, every dollar they spend on that tank is a dollar they don’t spend on something that has a much higher likelihood of saving a life. There’s probably less chance that spending any money at all on those items will save a life than that it will cost somebody their life – either directly because somebody on the police force escalates a situation beyond reason just to have a chance to use their new toy, or indirectly because the money wasn’t available for something that was really needed.
“Personally, having a bunch of untrained yahoos running around with assault rifles…”
I’m assuming you’ve seen the picture of the police officer at a bank robbery in Texas with the magazine in her M-16 backwards?
They come at a discount? Can I get a bigger discount with a coupon or a two-fer?
Guys, these fellas are rookies! Sheriff Joe has had an APC for years and the only place it’s used is in parades!? He also has an M-2 .50 cal machine gun that has never been used. As for the assault rifles, here in Phoenix, or Arizona for that matter, they’re needed. Comrade holder’s bumbling of “fast and furious” has put some pretty harsh fire power in the hands of the cartels in Mexico. That’s why I carry my .45 all the time. If one of the ‘border buddies’ starts shooting, I wanna be able to shoot back!
BOHICA!
They will all be wearing matching ACUs, Delta helmets & desert boots. Great urban camoflage.
@1 UpNorth: you folks need those assets during the spring and summer to protect everyone from the gargantuan skeeters and horse flies, especially in the Upper Peninsula.
Friend of mine (retired Marine up in the Dollar Bay area) told me that the skeeters have now gotten so big that they require air traffic control clearance to take off. Got any Stingers?
Other’n that, what will all those assets protect you from? Bears? Bigfoot?
*camouflage
Several years ago some surplus M113s came on the market…and a few police agencies bought them. One “leader” asked me about them and I said: “Chief, for every hour you drive it, you have to spend 4 or more hours working on it…all the time. There’s a reason the US Army got rid of it. It’s worn the fuck out.”
Many sat around and collected dust. A few fire guys thought they’d be great for wild land fires…you might get in, but you’ll have to walk out.
Ford offered an option of Kevelar in the front doors on the Crown Vic…and it goes fast. What else do you need?
I’ve been concerned about the “militarization” of civilian police and law enforcement for a couple decades, going back to the AFT buying up a shitload of surplus OV-10 Broncos from the Marine Corps and leaving the hardpoints intact. Seriously. What the hell does the ATF need with a 300mph turboprop powered ground attack plane loaded up with FLIR, the ability to mount 2.75 FFAR and a quad-pod of M-60’s under the fuselage?
You only have to worry until the police buy the military’s C2 systems. Then you’ll be safe.
Marine_CWO, that’s the truth re: the skeeters. And, with temps in the 90’s this week, the horse flies seem to delight in seeing how much blood they can draw.
As for bears, they’ve been seen about 8 miles from my house, and near Lowell, Greenville, Belmont and one was killed on I-96 east of the Grand River near Grand Rapids.
Upnorth:
The Marine Corps would like to buy some of those “amphibious 8 wheeled tanks” too. Then they could splash them from ship like amtracs instead of having to use LCMs or LCACs to get them ashore.
Jonn,
As a former LEO, I resent your comment comparing us to a bunch of untrained privates running around with fingers on triggers. Our dept got M-16’s from the Air Force, and promptly converted them to semi-auto only. The officers selected to go through patrol rifle school went through an intensive 2 week class before being issued a rifle.
Just like returning GI’s don’t need to be lumped into the PTSD category, please don’t lump all LE into the Barney Fife category….
Get ready for the smash & grab police state. If I offend you, Steve, sorry, but that’s how I perceive MOST LEOs.
Gentleman, LEOs, to a large extent, are veterans who have had weapons training. Seventy-five percent of the 700, my sister’s squad, are vets, half being jarheads. As I mentioned earlier, here in Arizona, the “border buddies” are armed to the teeth. Our officers need to have the equipment necessary to keep the public safe. If it’s not the illegals killing our officers it’s POSes who are high on the drugs the they smuggle in. Phoenix PD has honored my with their friendship and acceptance and I’ll stand up for them every time. These guys, and girls, step into situations that made me nervous, I’ve done a number or “ride-alongs”. They deserve every tool available and our full support.
There is something that needs to be considered here. You know the saying “When seconds count, the police are only minutes away”?
Well, that saying is true for cops, too. It is still common to find officers that operate alone, over a wide area. The only time they have help is when they call for it. And I’m sure all of us have seen the dash-cam videos of cops being killed because they were out-numbered, out-gunned, or both. And most of the time, it’s both.
I rolled my eyes at the idea of cops having tanks, too. But I’d rather they have equipment and never need it, than need it and not have it.
The militarization of the police is a bad idea-for one thing, the police should always be “a shield not a sword” and that’s not true of the military.
Soldier or Cop is an interesting website, I invite everyone to try their luck http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=cop-soldier most of us here will do better than the average citizen, but I’ll bet few or none are perfect in their picks.
68W, I tried the site, got 3 wrong.
PN, you’re absolutely right. My son works 3d shift for the sheriff’s department, the county we live in is about 721 square miles. After 3 a.m., he and one other deputy patrol the entire county, with the exception of the State Police, if they put out a car. Prior to 3 a.m., there might be 5 deputies and a State Police car, usually it’s 4 deputies. Some towns and villages have an officer on duty, and Greenville has two or three. Most finish their shifts at 2 or 3 a.m.
Oh, and Yat? I think they actually were referring to LAV’s.
UpNorth, LOL! An Amtrac? WTF?
Sheriff Joe has an honest to goodness APC! Two high school buddies, brothers, are Maricopa county deputies. Maricopa county is 9,000+ square miles and at night they run a skeleton shift. My sister is third shift. You don’t think these folks need every tool available? An APC might be a bit much but something they an answer back with when someone has a AK? I’m all for it.
Upnorth:
Couldn’t help trying to be sarcastic about an “amphibious 8 wheeled tank”, but for the media every armored vehicle is a tank. As a retired gunny and close to retiring PoPo, listening to this shit just gets old.
When the bad guys have Ak’s and other high power, high capacity weapons to shoot at the police, it may not be a bad idea that the police be able to respond in kind.
How many others (and I know it is a rare occurrence) recall the infamous bank shootout in California with the two body armored nutcases wielding full auto AK’s?
I do not think every small town cop needs to be armed to the teeth, or for agencies to be owning “tanks” aka APC’s/LAV’s… however, for a State Police Dept or Regional SWAT team to be equipped that they can appropriately match the local drug gangs and other criminals, it is kind of a no brainer to me.
I am not a cop, but believe they need to be able to protect us from the incredibly violent elements within our own society, and in some areas from violence coming across our borders.
I can see where some Cops would be upset about the generalised comments made. I do also know from friends who are Cops, that there are just those types out there that are described. Just as their are Troops in the Army who fit that description as well…. An exxageration was made for effect, but those are the same type of arguments used for “gun control”.
RB, well said. And, your last paragraph is true, too.
PSO Eric Zapata was killed in Kalamazoo last year. The asshole who killed him shot him with an SKS, the first round went through his vest like a hot knife through butter. He then walked up and shot Eric in the head. Zapata was armed with a pistol.
OFc Trevor Slot, Walker PD, was run down by two bank robbers, one of whom had been shooting at pursuing officers with an AR-15. So, yeah, I, too, get tired of listening to this “militarization” bullshit.
Not to be too nit-picky, but the photo of the 8-wheeled vehicle marked “LAV 150” is really a Stryker. The LAV only has 4 wheels.
But, yes, all the paramilitary stuff getting hoovered up makes my skin itch.
For the above officers commenting: while you may need an AR-15 sometimes, do you really need all that other stuff, especially given the increasing number of full-on no-knock SWAT raids on alleged pot dealers? Most especially considering the number of times they get the wrong friggin’ house, shoot someone’s dog, or (worse yet) shoot a person?
I can second Elric’s post… when the guvcop folks were out at the range, they were normally incompetent at best and dangerously unsafe – often. Good opportunity to pick up once-fired brass, though.
Street cops – like all of us, some are competent, same shouldn never be allowed to touch a gun. I had one here pull his gun on me in a traffic dispute – he waved me to drive, I started driving through the intersection, he claimed he told me to stop, I told him “you waved me to go” and the next thing he’s clearing leather. Turns out he directs traffic opposite to every other cop in the world AND the Texas handbook. (The word Keystone does come to mind.)