Karzai wants troops pulled back from villages
Yeah, so all of those apologies and making excuses for Afghans who are murdering our troops in their bases have provoked Karzai to turn on us and demand that Panetta withdraw US forces from the villages into their bases. Yeah, who needs to be near their enemy in order to fight them? (Fox News link);
Karzai asked the U.S. to withdraw its troops from Afghan villages and to confine them to bases following a shooting rampage by a U.S. staff sergeant that killed 16 civilians.
The dramatic request, which Karzai’s office said was made during a meeting with U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, would — if accepted — essentially end the US combat role just as the annual Taliban spring offensive begins.
And the Taliban was quick to follow on the Afghan President’s heels;
Within minutes of Karzai’s statement, the Taliban declared it was suspending their negotiations with the US because the US “turned back on its promises,” such as the release of Taliban prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Yeah, so much for being the only rational actor in the room. The US should begin immediate plans for withdrawals in the next few weeks. If Karzai wants us pulled out of the villages, pull them all the way back home. Why waste one more life in the cluster fuck that the Obama Administration has made of the Afghanistan War? Firing top generals, half-assed granting their requests, and putting his faith in Bite Me Biden’s strategy was always going to end this way. If our allies and our enemies think that they can exercise sway over our strategies, it’s no strategy at all.
To quote one of my recent spammers; I’m terribly multitudinous to here.
Category: Barack Obama/Joe Biden, Terror War
All we need now is to raise Uncle Walter from the dead and have him update his little “Tet Offensive” pronouncement for the Afghanistan conflict…
The time to end propping up an illegitimate government for no discernible gain is long, long overdue.
I can’t wait for the Taliban to behead Karzai for disrespecting islam or for some other sufficient reason.
@2: Yep. Time to GTFO. Leave Karzai to the taliban.
OT–that’s probably what he wants anyway. Karzai is very good at one thing–covering his ass. He’s had 30-plus years experience at it.
Iraq was essentially done by Election Day 2008 except for winding things down gracefully. And Afghanistan was pretty quiet then, too – but was still iffy.
Things seem different today. Wonder what’s different? Adult leadership, perhaps?
Wow, if the last three years there have been graceful, I’d have hated to see what a clusterfuck looks like.
Sparky, you’ll see clusterfuck from now until 2014. Wait until we try to pull equipment that took 10 years to get into theater out in a year and a half while maintaining contact.
Yup, f**k that place.
Get our troops out of there pronto. Wasted enough lives on these idiots already.
You know how there’s always been a friendly rivalry between the services? I think there needs to be one more. Let’s see who can bug out the fastest! Whoever gets back to their home base WITH all their equipment, don’t leave the rat bastages a forkin’ toothpick, WINS! Once the Marines are declared the winners, they get a beer bust and steak fry at Camp Del Mar beach (21area) then be granted a one week leave not charged to their leave bank!
Karzai will be on the first flight out after our last flight out. He’s been skimming money for years. As soon as we leave, he’s going to load up and fly to europe and live in exile with his millions.
I wouldn’t call the 2007 surge a cluster, NHSparky – but by comparison with later years they were damned hot times, even on some of the major installations (lots of incoming indirect fire in the 2nd half of 2007 even on Camp Victory). Prior to that, Fallujah was reportedly damned bad, too. But by the end of 2008, best I can tell things in Iraq were looking pretty much well in-hand. We did that withdrawal right – relatively slowly, and reasonably gracefully. What happens now is generally the Iraqi government’s problem.
In contrast, Afghanistan has IMO gone absolutely to hell in the last 3 years.
Adult leadership makes a world of difference. And I’m not talking about adult leadership in-theater; we’ve generally IMO had that.
A-STAN went to hell long before the last thee years…..at least since the first request for more forces went unfulfilled.
I wouldn’t call the 2007 surge a cluster, NHSparky
Nor would I–should have been clearer. Meant A-Stan since 2009.
Well it looks like we can at least agree here. Yes, I’m all for getting our troops out of that clusterfuck and getting them back home so we can start finally taking care of them for once.
Someone needs to kick Karzai in the balls before we leave.
The Communist-in-chief won’t pull the troops out until just before the elections to give himself a bigger pat on the back. Until then, we will pay the price for his arrogance.
To Flagwaver: I totally agree. It’s ridiculous and a shame to wait one more minute and one more life to get our troops out. I also remember in Iraq when Bush waited until right after elections to commit our forces to Fallujah II in 04. It certainly gave the insurgency enough time to buckle down when we should have attacked full fury the first time around.
Again we might disagree here, but in my opinion it’s not necessarily whatever puppet president is in charge but the system that creates the problem. Some would say it’s a two party system but more often than not you see all the same power brokers all sitting at the same poker table playing for the same end results. Our troops are just pawns in this game, and if you ask me their sacrifice is not respected nor appreciated.
I wonder if Karzai has a nice spot reserved in Caribbean island somwhere? His ass won’t last 30 minutes after we pull out. He probaly has stolen enough of the U.S. taxpayers money to live like a king somewhere. I say let’s pull out ASAP and let his ass get fragged!
NHSparky: thanks for the clarification; I fully agree. The last 3 years in Afghanistan have left much to be desired from the strategic point of view.
I’m not sure about leaving, though.
We already did that once before, actually – in 1989 – leaving unfinished business behind. I’m referring to our support for the anti-Soviet Afghan mujahideen, which we ended virutally overnight in 1989. At the time, we essentially left the new Afghan government and the competing, warring factions to fend for themselves in a power struggle for control of a destroyed land. The result was the inadvertent enabling of the rise of al Qaeda, which we might well have limited or prevented had we stayed involved.
As a result, we ended up going back just over a decade later – but this time after losing nearly 3000 countrymen to terrorism first.
We also at least arguably failed to finish things in Iraq in 1991. We ended up back in Iraq just over a decade later, too.
In short: my frustration and anger at this latest BS from Karzai tells me it’s time to leave. But my head tells me we’ve tried that before more than once – and each time it didn’t turn out very well.
And I’d really rather my son-in-law or my grandkids didn’t have to face the possibility of going back there – again.
Guys–look at today. Look anything like 1974 in another nation not too far from the ‘Stan?
Ain’t tracking, NHSparky. Sure 1974 is the year you meant?
In the words of Curly Bill Brocious: “Well……bye.”
Time to leave Asscrackistan to the asshats who want it.
If this really goes through then Afghanistan will quickly collapse, and my friends died for nothing. In the unlikely event that I cross paths with Karzai I will do my best to beat the chickenshit coward’s face in.
Well the thing is, about 23,000 will be out of that pie hole by this summer, and more in the ensuing year and all gone by 2014, so it’s not like we’re going to stay there forever anyways.
It’s just that to me, even that is too long to risk anymore U.S. lives for those people.
We are accomplishing nothing more by being there. Laden is dead. Does anyone still think that we can instill western style ‘democracy’ over there, while they still treat women like shyte? Their troops can’t tell their right foot from their arse, let alone fight or defend their own country.
Why is it you can take an 18 year old snot nosed American kid, out of shape, video game playing, and in a matter of months have him be a steely eyed killer, able to lead troops in battle, while their Afghan counterparts can’t even do one proper side straddle hop in 10 years?
We are not there to babysit them or provide security for them. Centuries of corruption and backwards assed-ness ain’t going away. This soft and gentle ‘war’ to appease everyone obviously hasn’t swayed the enemy.
@Tman The notion that killing bin-Laden somehow ends the fundamentalist Islamic terrorism threat is asinine.
Where did you find this ‘steely eyed killer’ nonsense? You become disciplined, not lobotomized.
@26 Ann, are you sure? During recruit training I distinctly remember being told I was a “steely eyed killer”! : o
@26: You’ve never been to Army/Marine basic; have you?
Ann, I never said anything about laden’s death ending fundamentalistic islamic terrorist threat. Where exactly did I state that?
One of the biggest reasons why we went to Afghanistan in the first place was to find laden, and those who aided and harbored him. That mission was accomplished.
So what further purpose is served by having our troops over there for even one, two extra years?
You seem to infer that our troops presence in Afghanistan is somehow preventing future fundie terrorism. How so?
And what you say that regardless, we are withdrawing troops this summer, and more over the coming years and all out by 2014? Are you saying by then all future terrorist threats from Afghanistan will be eliminated? That karzai and his cronies will be in charge of a western style nation that will deal with terrorism within its borders?
I’ll have what you’re having.
I get what you’re saying T-man, but I’d make one point, a couple million dollars spent by the extremists to fight our military in Astan, is a couple million dollars NOT being spent by them to bring the fight to our shores.
I heard the other day that the Pentagon is considering putting SOF under the control of the CIA for use in Afghanistan after 2014, so they probably won’t all be out.
I agree. Pull our troop out of the villages. . . . and all the way home.
Then send in the B-52s and glass the entire country, denying the enemy the assets and resources to continue fighting. 😉
#8 Bobo:
Yep. How much you wanna bet a lot gets “blown” in place. Anybody who thinks this couldn’t get REAL ugly, REAL fast, needs to examine the terrain and read Kipling on what the happened to the Brits as they retreated out of A-Stan.
Do I think we could pull it off? Yes, but that would require someone in the Whitehouse with some gumption and something in their nut sack besides hot air. I wouldn’t follow that waste of time, water and oxygen to my own funeral.
Tman:
Getting bin Laden was never the primary mission in Afghanistan. It was always a secondary mission.
The primary mission in Afghanistan was to neutralize al Qaeda’s base area there, and to deny Afghanistan’s future use to al Qaeda and/or other similar organizations as a base area for operations directed against the US. Since the Taliban regime sided with al Qaeda, attaining this objective required removal of the Taliban regime as well. In fact, the Taliban regime insisting on protecting al Qaeda and bin Laden as their “guests” is what led directly to our intervention there.
Unfortunately, the logical corollary to this is the fact that we need to ensure that a regime friendly the the US remains in power after we depart. Otherwise, the Taliban will very likely regain power – and we may well be back for a repeat performance in a few years. We’ve already done that once (we left in 1989 and had to come back in 2001 after being attached at home).
Do I like that? No. My gut says it’s time to leave. But my head tells me that if we do, we’ll likely be back in about a decade to do it all over again.
Obviously, last sentence of para 3 above should read “. . . after being attacked at home).” Typo.
I don’t see al Qa’ida moving back into Afghanistan is a necessarily bad thing. Aside from the fact that there is scant evidence that they have the desire to return….I’d much rather know where they are than where they aren’t….and would much rather have the permissible environment in which to target and strike them, which would exist in a Taliban controlled Afghanistan/Pashtunistan.
CI: we knew where al Qaeda’s leadership was from 1996 through 2001. Sudan reputedly offered us bin Laden twice; the Saudis, once (both before Jan 2001). Didn’t do us much good to know where they were if we weren’t going to do anything with that knowledge.
And do you really think we’ll do a damn thing differently in the future if we (a) pull out of Afghanistan now, (b) the Taliban regains control of Afghanistan, and (c) they covertly invite al Qaeda to return?
History says we very likely won’t. After we leave, it simply won’t be politically feasible.
Because it wasn’t politically feasible to return, we stood by and watched the RVN fall after we pulled out. Ditto while Hussein butchered his own citizens in southern Iraq in 1991 after we pulled out. Ditto in 1989-2001 as the Afghanis slaughtered each other after we ceased operations in the region. And ditto from 1996 to 2001 after al Qaeda had declared war on us – we did next to nothing, even after being repeatedly attacked (USS Cole, US Embassies in Africa, possibly Khobar Towers) until 9/11 absolutely forced our hand.
If we have to go back again in a decade or so, it almost certainly won’t be me doing it – I’ll be too old then. But as I said above, I’d really prefer that my son-in-law, or my grandkids, not have to go back in my place.
What we WILL do is anybody’s guess….most Administrations don’t vary drastically from preceding and succeeding.
What we SHOULD do is another story. We leave; AQ returns? So does raining steel.
It’s all about permissible environments. A Taliban controlled Pashtunistan would be jut that. I don’t expect the next couple of Administrations to take that COA….there’s too much inexplicable lure to nation building.
Yes Hondo, but the fact remains that we are going to be out of Afghanistan by 2014. There really isn’t any difference between pulling out sooner rather than the official timetable.
Karzai and his merry band are the best we can do, and us being there for a little extra isn’t going to make it any better. The Afghan troops that are killing our own troops are supposed to be the ones fighting and carrying on the government we helped build.
If they can’t do the job, then it is not our job to continue to hold their hands indefinitely.
i>”If they can’t do the job, then it is not our job to continue to hold their hands indefinitely.”
True enough, but I might argue it’s our job to get rid of those who can’t, and replace them with those who can. As has been stated before, if we leave now without better guaranteeing the stability of the country and the permanently reduced influence of the Taliban, we will be going back in a decade or so, and doing so after giving up what gains we have made.
As a soldier, one of the most disheartening things I ever had to listen to while I was in Iraq was the suffering the southern tribes went through because we failed to carry through on the promises we made in 1991 in return for their support. It took us 12 years to make good on that promise, and thousands upon thousands of Iraqis paid the price. I shudder to think what’s going to be done to thousands of Afghanis, who did believe in us, if we leave them in the state they’re in now.
TMan: We may or may not be “out of Afghanistan” by 2014. Much can change in 2 1/2+ years.
And just because we’re “out” doesn’t mean ALL the troops will leave. We ceased occupying Japan in 1952; Germany and Austria in 1955; and Okinawa in 1972. As I recall we still have forces in all but one of those places today.
— break —
CI (37): plausible military. Impossible politically. Ain’t gonna happen without US troops there unless we get attacked again and the attack can be traced, like 9/11, to that area. And since a good portion (about 1/3) of the current Pashtun homeland is in present-day Pakistan (and the Pashtun majority areas don’t include somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 of present-day Afghanistan), I just don’t see an independent Pashtunistan any time soon.