Marines dispute police accounts of shooting
In the story about Orange County Deputy Sheriff Department shooting of Marine Sgt. Manuel Loggins Jr, which we first discussed last week, members of Loggins’ unit are speaking up to dispute essential elements of the deputies in a Marine Corps Times/Associated Press article sent to us by Marine-7002;
Loggins’ commanding officer, Col. Nicholas Marano, countered back with a bruising statement issued to the media: “While I am confident they will do the right thing in the end, I am less than satisfied with the official response from the City of San Clemente and Orange County. Many of the statements made concerning Manny Loggins’ character over the past few days are incorrect and deeply hurtful to an already grieving family.”
The words were especially searing given the military’s close relationship with law enforcement agencies — many of whom are made up of former service members — and the fact that the investigation was in its initial stages. The Orange County district attorney’s office is leading the probe and declined to comment.
Loggins’ supervisor, Maj. Christopher Cox, said Marano’s bold statement won applause in the Corps.
“We’re glad he stepped up and made a statement over the way this has been handled,” he said. “Everybody reads the report presented by the Orange County officials. Obviously it contradicts what we know to be the case about him. He was involved with his family. His relationship with his daughters was fantastic. They were a close family. To paint it any other way is not right.”
The police, who’ve made it sound like Loggins was yet another nutty veteran having a PTSD episode, are out in the cold on this one. Even though Loggins has been in the Marine Corps since 1999, he has never deployed to the war on terror. The Marine Corps and the police agree that Loggins had three Bibles in his car, but nothing that would endanger the sheriff’s deputy or his children.
Our buddy, Beat and Release, has assembled most of the facts on his own blog in an easy to understand post.
Given the breathless recounting of Itzcoatl Ocampo’s story of a nutty veteran who killed at least four homeless men in LA County because of his service in the war against terror, you’d think the police have an easy exit from this tragic embarrassment, what with the media’s rush to explain everything with stereotypes. But the Orange County Sheriff’s Department needs to come clean with the truth quickly in this case for the newly widowed, expectant wife and the two traumatized children who witnessed the murder of their father.
Category: Marine Corps, Military issues
This whole story makes my blood boil.
You’re not the only one, Joshua.
You say that Manny Loggins had no deadly weapons in his vehicle. According to the facts, the mere presence of not one, but three dangerous and fully loaded bibles is justification to take out a dangerous radical Christian. I am sure athiests groups across the country will be crusading for the officer’s defense fund.
In the old days, when something like this happened, the base commander would have a nice, quiet talk with the City Mayor and the Chif of Police. Things would be sorted out and those responsible for the poor behavior would be reassigned or fired, etc.
If things didn’t work out to the base commander’s expectations, then he did what was needed to make things right: He’d declare the local businesses off-limits to all military personnel and their families.
You could go to school, go to City Hall to get done what needed to get done, but no shopping or spending money anywhere for any reason.
After a couple days, the local businesses usually leaned on the mayor enough to make things right and everything went back to normal.
We need these sorts of leaders in our military again.
When did the police say he was suffering from PTSD. If memory serves right, they said he was acting irrationally. Considering he crashed through a school gate early in the morning with 2 kids in the vehicle what would make anyone think he might be acting irrationally.
Citizens would be much safer if LEO’s had to follow the same rules of engagement my son-in-law had in Afghanistan. Unless an armed insurgent was aiming their weapon at him, he could not fire as many of us here know. Seems to me after talking to a few LEO’s, that they truly believe the job they volunteered for is so dangerous that they must err on the side of their own personal safety and blame the victim while hiding behind and following obviously flawed department ROE policies. It also seems to me that their ROE are much more relaxed when it comes to citizens. Judging from the reaction of the OCSD leadership, they are getting ready for battle and are not at all concerned with the truth. I predict that because the shooting involved a “crazed, unstable” military service member, it will be treated like that of shooting a gang banger. Yes their job is tough. Yes it is stressful. My problem is that they have a duty to know the difference between a dangerous criminal and a law-abiding citizen. This “Crazy PTSD suffering Combat Vet” meme is giving ALL LE organizations an easy out in justifying a bad shoot. God help any of our vets should they have an unresolved PTSD issue and have an LEO encounter. Is it open season on combat vets? Gun-control advocates have publicly stated that combat vets are dangerous and should not own guns. Our own DHS has defined conservative combat vets that do not agree with the current administration as potential domestic terrorists. We are being tarred and feathered by agencies with an agenda. I should not have to fear the police, but as a law-abiding gun owner in the People’s Socialist State of California, if I do not walk the line of insane and complex gun law, I could be taken out on a technicality of law. I truly believe that the vast majority of police have the right attitude, but there are some of them that rush to pull the trigger. The much larger problem is systemic. LEO’s are quickly developing… Read more »
@YatYas true. Not all the facts are in and this must be investigated. The police should not make those kinds of statements until the investigation is complete or they will find themselves walking their statements back. For all anyone knows, he might have had a stuck accelerator. We can’t jump to conclusions without facts and right now, it is too soon to tell. Judging from the Colonel’s statement, he may be privy to facts that we are not. The fact remains that the use of deadly force in this case seemed way too premature.
#5 Yatyas,
I’m not seeing any specific mention of PTSD. I am seeing ‘acting irrationally’ and Marine in close proximity. Proximity is association and the writer wants readers to associate Marines with irrationality – in this case: Loggins.
Looking at the pic on BeatandRelease’s site, if it is indeed Loggins’s vehicle, there’s no discernable damage. Busting through a gate, chained or not, is going to leave marks.
One thing not covered here is the mention that the Deputy is also a ‘decorated Marine.’
What I would like to see is the coroner’s report, verified by the Marines. Could Loggins have been high? Could he have had mental illness? The source for an observation of irrationality needs to be locked down.
Irrational or not, measured response does not seem to be in the officer’s vocabulary. According to the changing statements coming from OCSD, all statements so far support the fact that Loggins left the vehicle. Why was he not stopped and restrained if he was as irrational as has been stated? Why did they allow him to get back into his vehicle? The statements fro OCSD stink to high hell and nothing will change that fact. The only thing clear to me is were they lying in the first statement or are they lying now? I strongly believe that an independent investigator is needed as they cannot be trusted to investigate themselves. Shit happens guys. The officer was a Marine as well. The lack of integrity and honesty of the OCSD is what is pissing me off to no end.
I’d really like to see the statements the daughters made. And the dash cam video from the first officer on the scene, apparently the one who fired the shot(s).
If, as Dave said, you look at B&R’s site, the overhead pic of the SUV and police car, then look at this pic,http://www.flickr.com/photos/keachie/6887295951/in/photostream/lightbox/
there’s something different, the overhead doesn’t show the tangled “gate” under the SUV’s front end, that shows up in later pics. And, how many LEO’s were there, at the scene, when the shot(s) were fired, that couldn’t stop Loggins from getting back in his Yukon?
When a Cop Kills a Marine……
… jumping to conclusions can lead to embarrassment and entrenchment. The initial reports will never have sufficient information, and sometimes, there are people better situated to assess the situation. So, when I started reading reports that an Orang…
If you click on the overhead pic at B&R’s site, it takes you to a site that has a second pic taken from behind the SUV. that shows what I guess is the remains of the fence.
UpNorth, a thought that hit me about this, that Beat n Release hadn’t covered. Looking at the photo of the Yukon, there is significant enough damage to the front end body work and with it appearing to be a brand new vehicle, maybe, just maybe SGT. Loggins was very upset with himself for hitting the pole and chain that is underneath it in the photo. Just saying…What say you, BnR?
Last time I looked Rambo was not armed with three Bibles, and carting his kids around with him, in a brand new expensive vehicle.
Jonn–Ocampo was also in Orange County, not LA County, but the point is still valid.
OCSD has had some serious credibility issues ever since about 2004-05 with Carona’s corruption, issues at the jail, and deputies being a little, shall we say, “enthusiastic” in the execution of their duties.
And Tim, your idea, while it has merit in a small community or immediately outside the main gate at a base, doesn’t really play with Pendleton. The main base is down in Oceanside, about 30-40 miles south of San Clemente. The north end of Pendleton (Basilone Road) near San Onofre has some Marines, but not nearly enough for the local merchants to give a rat’s ass about the Marines one way or another.
I have a friend who works for NCIS in the area and he said the investigators are getting rather upset. The police ate stonewalling them. They have refused to release any information until after their internal investigation is over. However, he did tell me one thing.
Loggins would go to walk on that track at least three times a week, sometimes with his daughters and sometimes without. Contacting the school, they found out that the fence was new, as in put in within the past week before the incident.
He suspects, but this is not on the record, that the reason Loggins may have gotten out of his vehicle and “seemed incoherent and irate” is that he had hit the fence that wasn’t there the last time he went and was pissed that he messed up his car. This is legitimate, but it is easier to look at the “crazy PTSD veteran” angle because it is more politically expedient.
Minor geographical correction for NHSparky: San Clemente is only 20 miles from Oceanside.
On topic: seems to me like OCSD has some trigger happy deputies who should soon be in need of a new job.
@13 – I updated in another post after finding the photo that showed the gate under the vehicle. I agree, he may have been upset with himself. If he was at that school as frequently as has been reported he may have been in mid-rant over running down a gate that had never been an issue before when the deputy pulled up. I gave OCSD the point for the gate, but the rest of the story still stinks to high heaven.
I retired from law enforcement last year and I have a huge problem with police departments that release a flurry of statements on an issue, especially when those statements are several days out from the incident and each varies from the last. All of the other issues I pointed out reference to the victim being allowed back into his vehicle, officers circumventing the use of force matrix and jumping straight to deploying a firearm on an a suspect who does not display or threaten the use of a weapon, etc. The lack of an attempt at hands on control, pepper spray, or a Taser prior to shooting Loggins has me deeply concerned.
Just for the record – during my career I served in patrol, investigations, forensics and internal affairs – all as a supervisor. While all of the details may not be presented yet, I base my conclusions on the evidence at hand and that evidence points to a problematic shoot for the officer.
Beat-n-Release: That was a great article you wrote.
Perhaps, with your experience, you could de-code some of the jargon used in OCSD blotter. I was able to get most of it, and the timeline was the important part, but there could be parts that help in your analysis.
Jonn, thanks for staying on this issue.
Anon @ 17: Probably. Always seemed a lot farther going from SC to Oceanside…and a LOT farther going north until they just said “fuck it” with the Border Patrol checkpoint on I-5 (I used to live in Fountain Valley.)
OCSD and the county have had to make several rather large (7-figure plus) payouts over the last couple of years, and the whole deal with Heidel (sp?) and his buddies still disgusts me to this day.