If Marines didn’t know then send them back to school
Jonn has already covered the Marine Corps Scout Sniper’s use of a stylized flag using with the emblem “SS” in a font indistinguishable from that of both horrendous 80’s glam rock band KISS and the Schutzstaffel. He also made note of the Corps’ initial decision not to seek documentable punitive action against those involved. Very well. Here’s my take.
To quote from Jonn’s previously cited article:
An initial Marine investigation into the matter concluded that the troops would not be disciplined because there was no malicious intent. The Marines mistakenly believed the “SS” in the shape of white lightning bolts on the blue flag were a nod to sniper scouts – not members of Adolf Hitler’s special unit that murdered millions of Jews, Catholics, gypsies and others, said Maj. Gabrielle Chapin, a spokeswoman at Camp Pendleton, Calif.
or
The SS logo has been worn by scout snipers going back to at least the 1980s, said Earl Catagnus Jr., who served as a scout sniper in Iraq and now teaches military history at Valley Forge Military Academy and College in Pennsylvania and other institutions. Catagnus never got an “SS” tattoo, he said, but he knows Marines of many races who did.
“This symbol has taken on a myth of its own with scout snipers,” he said, adding that he does not condone its use. “They’re sporting it like it’s nothing because they have no idea what it means.”
Fine, but, you know what? I don’t believe that. I can’t imagine the circumstances where a dozen literate, k-12 adults raised in a military culture don’t immediate recognize where that comes from. When you look at that flag, you know, immediately. When I look at that flag, I know, immediately.
I’m a history nerd. I can tell you about the politics of the Das Reich Division and the demographic makeup of the “Death’s Head” after the invasion of Russia and how it doesn’t jive with the feel good post WWII feel good historical narrative. I can go on about the fact that Himmler’s racially pure vanguard was largely composed of ideological non-German volunteers by the end of the nightmare that was the Second World War. Because of this self conscious sensitivity I have to demand the simple acknowledgement that these fellow Marines can’t possibly have been ignorant of the basest of facts that these symbols carry. The SS has become a pop culture symbol in a society that can’t deliver a singular biographical fact about Alexis de Tocqueville or Andrew Jackson.
These Marines knew. They knew because kicking ass is cool.
General Amos has ordered a full investigation into the “incident”. The most recent article in the Marine Corps Times acknowledges that the use of this symbol is an old tradition in the Marine Corps Scout Sniper Community. To quote:
The incident has brought scrutiny to a longtime practice in the scout sniper community. Its members have used the “lightning bolt” SS logo for years on patches, posters and tattoos, a nod toward their title. The position is exclusive to the Corps; the Army has scouts and snipers, but separates their duties into two occupations.
To be clear, that this is a sub-cultural trait in the Corps that has flown under the radar is obvious, so let me slide in some SgtMaj love session anecdotes:
Sgt. Maj. Mike Barrett, the Corps’ top enlisted Marine, will meet personally with every senior staff noncommissioned officer in the sniper community in coming days to “reinforce my message and expectations,” Amos said. Barrett served as a scout sniper during the Gulf War, and later designed sniper training for Marine units in Iraq.
Yeah. A whole shit ton of GySgt and MSgts are getting yelled at to tear that shit down, even when the LtCol isn’t looking.
You’re living under a microscope, gents. You have organizations within the military like the “Military Religious Freedom Foundation” looking to undermine you. Your Commander-in-Chief’s idea of camaraderie is getting all the ghetto rats to show up to the right place at the right time for the victim of the week rally. You have no friends in the Executive Branch. Mind your shit, don’t be stupid and don’t give them free passes. I know that the fellow warrior, whom you would die for, is named Hernandez, is a Jordanian or is dark as coal, with a Mississippi accent to match. If you’re standing under a flag used by the men who carted 6 million Jews and 5 million other “undesirables” you’re going down. And you deserve it.
Be smarter than the fools looking to string you up.
Category: Politics
The SS thing bugged the shit out of me since I learned about it years ago.
Now seems like a good time to force permanent retirement of that nonsense.
Retire the symbol, but don’t turn it’s use into some crime that these Marines may have committed. Besides, exactly which article of the UCMJ is it that makes tasteless symbols illegal? (If you’re going to toss 134 out there, you’d better accompany it with the specific clause; contrary to popular mythology Article 134 doesn’t make every act illegal just because someone wants it to be.)
If the SgtMaj was a Scout Sniper, then he’s known of this symbol’s use and probably used it himself before this batch of Marines ever landed on the yellow footprints. Come on SgtMaj; show some leadership, admit its been used for decades, insist these Marines be left alone and just retire the culturally insensitive but not illegal symbology.
Let’s look back in history. How old is the symbol? Surely it was around long before the Nazis were, because the truth is, every symbol the Nazis used was picked for a specific reason, due to the strong ties to mysticism they wanted to portray. The swastika, the rune, etc., were all borrowed. So, in reality they were around long before the Nazi Party and Hitler, Himmler, etc.
If they had chosen to use Mickey Mouse instead of a skull and crossbones on their hats (the deaths head in the SS); would we not have Disneyworld now? Thinking people with a k-12 education should be able to discern the difference and if a genocidal maniac and his cadre of pure evil bastard’s use of ancient symbols precludes those symbols from ever being used again, then they continue to win and we continue to be stuck in the past. As I said, before; if you are looking for a reason to be offended, you will be.
I am not a Marine, I’m a former Army guy, but I think the solution to this mess is actually really simple.
1. Commandant of the Marine Corps issues a directive to all Marines (past, present and future) that the use of the SS-looking runes is hereby prohibited, regardless of their heritage within the Scout/Sniper community. Provide a brief explanation of why this so, including a brief historical summary of why the Waffen SS were actually not cool at all, but in fact were real fucking inhuman bastards, and provide a few brief examples of the horrific atrocities committed by units such as the Einsatzgrupen and the Totenkopf Division, etc.
2. Note that anyone who, presumably not knowing the history and the sensitivities, previously indulged in the SS nonsense is sort of “grandfathered in”, and there will be no ex post facto punishment.
3. Provide a reasonable “amnesty period” for offenders with SS tattoos, pictures on social media, etc., to come clean and immunize themselves.
4. Note that, after the amnesty period expires, any offenders will be transported forthwith to Eighth and I, where the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corp will ritually place their testicles on a fucking rock and smash them with a fucking hammer.
Period. End of discussion. Problem solved.
IMO, well said. Use of the Nazi SS – hell, ANY Nazi symbol – by any US organization is monumentally stupid. I’m amazed that it went on this long before the media made an issue of it.
Yeah, I know that the Nazis either stole or adapted (their swastika was different from the one used in Eastern religions) all of their symbols. I also don’t care. Their use by the Nazis has permanently perverted them into symbols of evil hatred.
Regarding Disney World: we’d still have one. But if the Nazis had used Mickey Mouse as a symbol, you can bet your ass Walt Disney and his descendants would have retired Mickey pronto – like on shortly after 8 December 1945.
What Old Trooper said. The Navajo Nation here in Az has been using the reversed swastika for a thousand years on their pottery and weavings as a symbol for good luck. Do they have to quit using it? Sheesh!
Major Kong: In general a good workable practical solution. I’d add to #3 the requirement to remove any Nazi-themed tattoos.
Well, it’s workable except for #4. No matter how practical (and satisfying) that would be, I rather doubt the Pentagon in it’s current PC state will go along with it – even for the USMC. (smile)
Yat Yas 1833: The Nazi swastika was, as you noted, different from the Navajo swastika (and those used in eastern religions). So I’d say no. But I’d also say using the Nazi version or the SS runes would be a bad idea.
Yat Yas, just a small correction to your #6 post. There is no “reverse” position for the swastika, it is used in both directions, and it isn’t a “luck” symbol, it is an infinity symbol, similar in meaning to the yin-yang symbol of the orient. Many Indian tribes use a variation of it in their art, and I have one of those on my medicine bag. (Cherokee)
TopGoz: Here’s Art 134:
934. ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE
Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.
I’d say that using a Nazi symbol could validly described as either prejudicial of good order and discipline, or of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces. And if the USMC formally makes it against reg to wear/use Nazi symbols, or already has a reg with appropriate language, then Article 92 comes into play as well.
#9: What!?!? How could you be so callous!? Don’t you know that someone could be offended!?!?
That’s it; I’m calling the BIA and this is gonna stop, quick, fast, and in a hurry!! We’re gonna get that symbol erased from existence, because the Nazi’s used it and anything they used is eeeeeeevil. I suppose we are gonna have to get rid of any eagle symbols, too, because they had a big one over the Reichstag, ya know.
I agree. Retire the “SS” symbol, but for another reason not mentioned yet: The “SS” were a bunch of pussies. Yeah, they were tough when came to killing civilians, invading peaceful countries and committing war crimes againsts prisoners of war, but Americans kicked their Waffen-SS asses in every battle. Hell, their rate of surrender to American forces made the French envious. Hollywood does a good job making them seem tough, but ruthless is not tough and their battlefield record against U.S. forces was abyssmal.
Take down the SS. Proudly put up that Eagle, Globe and Anchor, Marines.
Yeah, let me know how that works out for you, OT. Heh.
🙂
@13: 😛
I’d point out that the Marines call themselves “Devil Dogs” as a nod to their German enemies at Belleau Woods who reportedly told their higher headquarter that they were heavily engaged with “Teufel Hunden”. I’ll grant that the Germans of 1918 were far different than the Schutzstaffel, but I think that the same principle applies here.
Let’s see if I’ve got this – symbols are used within the military generally as a means to express good order and discipline. The sniper scouts’ symbol accomplishes that, and has accomplished that for various other organizations historically.
Persons who are not members of the organization now have their panties in a wad over something which actually has no impact upon their lives whatever.
And I should be concerned?
I would quibble a bit OWB….symbols in the military are used to display morale and epsirit de corps.
I can think of no good order and discipline from using a symbol that the Schutzstaffel tainted.
And who gets to decide which syumbols are tainted and which are not?
@17: Then with that logic; any unit that uses a skull, crossbones, or combination, should get rid of it immediately. The unit good order and discipline, morale, or esprit de corps, doesn’t appear to have been harmed at any time in the past 30 years that we are told that the symbol was used by the scout snipers. I haven’t heard of any reports of them terrorizing Jewish enclaves around the world, or goose stepping around their base, holding reenactments of the Night of the Long Knives, etc. Have you?
@18 – Obviously in this case, the USMC.
CI: Bingo. And it sound to me as if they already have.
And as I recall, once the order is given professional Soldiers/Sailors/Airmen/Marines salute and comply – whether or not they agree.
Damn, I think I need more coffee. That should obviously be “And it soundS to me . . . .”
“I have to demand the simple acknowledgement that these fellow Marines can’t possibly have been ignorant of the basest of facts that these symbols carry. The SS has become a pop culture symbol in a society that can’t deliver a singular biographical fact about Alexis de Tocqueville or Andrew Jackson.
These Marines knew. They knew because kicking ass is cool.”
***
I agree 100%. Fascinating topic and comments, which is why i have my RV, lawn chair and cooler of Hamm’s parked here every day.
Whats the response if one of these guys or his fellows says “yeah i know the SS were murderous inhumane bastards. But they were also some of the biggest badasses the Jerrys ever produced. We dont use the symbol to promote the murderous inhumane bastard part, only the badass part.”
I’d respectfully take exception if i heard a statement like that but I can conceive of it being made without resulting in a court-martial.
There are other badasses. Problem is, either the symbols are owned by our friends (SAS, ex.) and we wouldn’t want to poach. Or by our enemies now or then, and then we’d be where we are here.
Although Army, I figure the badass symbol the jarheads can use is the Eagle Globe and Anchor.
Poaching somebody else’s implies that the somebody else was better than the jarheads. Anybody in that funny uni want to actually say that?
Reading (and understanding) is fundamental… we let yo-yos this dumb handle loaded weapons out on their own?
So glad that the same level of ire has been raised by the continued use of the hammer and sickle and all of its associated imagery. Thanks to self-righteous hypocrites like you (you know who you are) I can sleep safely in my bed at night. BZ
If for one moment you decried, with the same intensity, the Communist slaughter, I might give a moments consideration for your misguided thoughts regarding the Scout Snipers.
We would like to thank Jonn for giving us the space to post this rebuttle.
AndyFMF: many of us here have Cold War service, dipstick. We did. Stuff it.
AndyFMF: I posted #28. Now that I’ve calmed down a bit, I’ll expand and clarify so someone of your obvious tender years can follow.
For someone who at least tries to seem educated, you are shockingly ignorant. As I said above: many of us here have Cold War service. I’d guess that was before your time, or ended while you were too young to remember a damn thing about it – so perhaps you need to educate yourself. In contrast, I was there. As I recall, the Cold War was all about opposing everything that hammer and sickle represented. Thank the Cold War vets here for the fact that you even have this forum in which to post your naive nonsense.
And it wasn’t all that “cold” of a war. We lost many good men in action during the Cold War – nearly a hundred in Korea alone between 1955 and 1994 (60 KIA along the DMZ, 6 in a MEDIVAC crash evacuating wounded from a DMZ incident, 1 killed on the Pueblo, and 31 killed when a USAF surveillance was attacked about 90 mi off the NK coast). Another 132 were WIA in Korea during this period. Add in those killed elsewhere in “Cold War” engagements, and we’re talking well over 100 Cold War KIAs. And I’m not even including Vietnam, Laos, the DR, Grenada, El Salvador, or Grenada.
Oh, and in general Cold War vets (and our leadership) had the good sense to do this without using Nazi symbols to build “unit esprit”. Well, except in a very few cases – one of which is getting just a wee bit of publicity now.
Different subject: your argument here is also worthless. While some in our society today use the hammer and sickle symbol with impunity (and others do the same with Nazi symbols), I challenge you to show me ONE FREAKING US MILITARY LOGO that uses the hammer and sickle as it’s central theme. I’m pretty sure you can’t. And I’m guessing you never will.
Minor correction: the surveillance flight was Navy, not USAF. The KIA were 30 USN, 1 USMC.
I must say, with all due affection, that this whole subject is helmet wearing, window licking retarded. Our sensibilities have surely gone the way of the PC induced if we let this become something it is not; which is exactly what some here want. I can’t believe how many people are making vast strides to actually want to be offended by this. Some lace panty wearing jackwagon gets them all twisted up and suddenly this place turns into a mob diaper wetting event. WTF is wrong with this place? How many people have been harmed by them using this symbol? No one would have even noticed, although many have known about it for decades, if a certain panty-waist hadn’t started blubbering about the fucking picture to begin with. Save the intellectual mind wrestling for something that really matters and let’s move on.
Then I guess that means all memorabilia of squadron VF-111the “Sundowners” must be disposed of. Their squadron patch has a big red sun the looks an awful lot like the Japanese “meatball”. Tell me the Japanese weren’t some mean little bastages. The Bataan Death March, the Rape of Nanking, etc. Stars! Pretty much every communist country in the world has stars as part of their flags. We all know the Commies aren’t very nice people. Maybe Arizona should consider changing their flag, it has rays emanating from the copper star that look a lot like the Japanese “Rising Sun. I mean they put out SB 1070! George Orwell was right in ‘1984’, right speak and right think are the way to go.
OT – I don’t consider the topic to be wasteful at all. Many of us here I wager, are interested and/or have a vested interest in the professionalism of our military.
@31 Old Trooper, you beat me to it!
Plus one on that, OT!
@33: Well, CI, as I have said before; I haven’t heard any reports of Scout Snipers goose stepping around their compound, re-enacting the Night of the Long Knives, terrorizing Jews, running people off to concentration camps, etc. In fact, I think they do a damn good job of doing their job. Where is the unprofessionalism? What the hell have they done that interferes with them doing their job? It wasn’t an issue before someone soiled themselves about a flag with symbol on it that a group of murderous assholes borrowed. If that’s all it takes to get people all whipped up into a lather and start bending their philosophical sensibilities, then we are in bigger trouble, as a society, than I thought.
@33 CI, what if 3rd Assault Amphibian Battalion’s (3rd Amtracs) patch had two dogs humping instead of a alligator, would that have changed the fact we were rated C-1 (combat ready)? I think the IG thought we were pretty professional. A unit’s patch, emblem or mascot is just that, the unit’s. It’s something everyone in that outfit identifies with. Do you think I’m going to quit saying ‘Oorah’ to my brother Marines if it’s discovered it means “stick a cucumber up your butt” in the language of some 3rd world turd pile in Africa? Not on your life!
You know what PC will do here? Give some folks enough rope, and the snipers will be required to use less-than-lethal rounds, so the enemy has a “sporting chance” of walking away from the shot!
Let the snipers keep their flag. The Nazis ruined that symbol; let our military take it and give it a new meaning.
To each his own opinion. But you’ll have to show me a current US military unit emblem/patch with either (1) a Nazi swastika, (2) a Klansman and burning cross, or (3) a hammer and sickle as it’s primary theme before I’ll even think about changing my mind.
Some symbols simply have so much baggage due to past association with evil that they have no place in a professional military. In my book, the SS runes are such a symbol.
Yat and OT – My post wasn’t rendering judgement on the use of the SS runes. It was noting that OT implied that having a discussion on the merits of using symbology with a sordid past, was somehow detracting from more weighty issues….as if a blogs comment site had some sort of end state production.
If one doesn’t think that a discussion of this nature is beneficial, then one shouldn’t participate. Senses of political correctness exist across the spectrum. Someone may not find anything wrong with the SS rune, but it’s hard to imagine that there is not some symbology or phraseology that same person would not find offense from.
There are offensive words, symbols and other stuff all around us. Some of us just feel no need to acknowledge them much less whine about them.
Others do, as is evidenced in this topic. No biggy.
Now, if you bring something I find offensive into my yard, I will likely kick your ass if you do not immediately and politely respond to my civil request to remove it.
Maybe we should make all unit nicknames, mottos, and call signs more PC. No more walking dead, widowmakers, sadists, death dealers etc because those might offend people. If a group of guys who can put a round in a haji’s chest at a thousand yards want to have SS lightning bolts for their Scout Sniper logo so be it.
FYI the sergeant major of the marine corps is a fucking liar if he comes out and says he never saw that logo
@42: My old unit had a skull with a snake behind it as our logo. The motto was Viper’s strike to kill. I guess that skull could be construed as being part of the SS Deaths Head and should be replaced immediately with a fluffy bunny or something like that, and the motto isn’t very PC, considering that; it should be changed to “Strike to wound” or maybe “Strike to scare”?
CI–you want to know how fucking PC-pussified we’ve become?
I’ll use an example from my own experience. Look at the ship’s patches from the 688-class. Notice anything unusual about them?
Lemme give you a hint–what do submarines shoot? How many ship’s emblems do you see with torpedoes or weapons of ANY kind in them? (Hint: two–USS Buffalo–my first boat, and USS Portsmouth.)
TWO submarines out of 62 boats.
I think you meant to say, “You have organizations within the military like the ‘Military Religious Freedom Foundation’ looking to strenghten our military by strongly encouraging it to adhere to the United States Constitution. That’s better….
Joey, MRFF has demanded that the government actually fund defense, and not entitlements? Who knew?
Joey, please–the bongwater is pretty fucking foul by now. Stop chugging it.
In 2008 before leaving for Al Asad airbase, VMFA 122 out of MCAS Beaufort had to change it’s name from the Crusaders, their emblem was a shield with a red cross, back to the Werewolves, the original name from WWII. (Pappy Boyingtons old Squadron. Didn’t want to offend anyone as the F-18’s were lighting up the bad guys.
All this upheaval over symbols is getting nauseating. The SS insignia in question was the terribly un-imaginative creation of the graphic artist Walter Heck in 1933, it’s visually based on the Sig Rune from the Old Italic alphabet known as the Eldar Futhark which is believed to have been finished sometime in the fifth century, and in fact may have it’s origins in Proto-Norse symbolism, making it centuries older yet. The original meaning of the rune symbol was the “Sun”. It has counterparts in the Anglo Frisian runes (5th to 11th c.), the Marcomannic runes (8th to 9th c.), the Younger Futhark runes (9th to 11th c.), the Medieval runes (12th to 15th c.), and the Dalecarlian runes (16th to 19th c.).
The idea that 20th century occultists, in the persons of Karl Wiligut and Heinrich Himmler, get to write the final chapter on any languages use is just plain asinine. Bowing to the PC crowd’s fainthearted, uneducated, and shortsighted wailings about the modern use of ancient Norse script just gives additional legitimacy to the disgusting perversions that defined the now long dead Schuzstaffel. As Old Trooper said, they continue to win.
For crying out loud, letting new generations stamp their own identities on these symbols sounds like a deuced good way of putting the final nail in the Nazi’s coffins.