Women in Combat, being my reply to Kayla Williams

| December 29, 2009

This morning during my daily dumpster dive over at the House of Beeker Dicksmith, I came across this post by Ms kayla Williams. I don’t really have much against Ms. Williams, in fact, I have enjoyed reading her testimony before Congress in the past. I don’t care for her husband, and I don’t care for the circle she runs in (VoteVets) but she is fairly cordial to me, and has never once been rude or dismissive when I took issue with her. As usual, I took my objection to her directly, and she encouraged me to do a post on the subject. Ergo this post.

Her basic premise is that women should be in the military (or perhaps in combat, she seems to use them interchangeably) and that all arguments to the contrary are without merit. She lists for us 5 strawmen, and then proceeds to explain why they are not accurate.

Regarding the overall premise of women in the military, I am in agreement. Which makes the line I walk all the more difficult here. I do, however, oppose women in the direct combat arms units, understanding however that they do engage in combat. My distinction being essentially, units that patrol for a week or more, or are on FOBs out in the sticks, I oppose a female presence. But, let’s look at her 5 points of her argument.

1. The Hygiene Hypothesis: According to the Hygiene Hypothesis, because women have menstrual cycles and, you know, scary womanly genitals, we supposedly cannot survive in the field…Baby wipes clean vaginas, penises, and anuses equally well.

It was a close call, but Ms Kayla has done me an unestimable favor by allowing me to use the words “vaginas,” “penises” and “anuses” in conjunction with “baby wipes” for the year 2009. Frankly, for that alone I owe her thanks.

On the larger picture, I am not a biologist, and I have no clue on it. What I do know is that on FOB Ghazni we had these pipes coming out of the ground that you had to pee into. Not as much a hygiene issue as I wonder whether this would be acceptible procedure with females present. Mind you that these pipes were in the middle of the compund, so you essentially just exposed yourself to the elements and all present. Again, not something that could not be overcome, but I wonder what additional measures would need to be taken in order to make this situation co-ed/EEO compliant. But again, I know nothing about menstrual cycles beyond what other males know, which is limited by choice.

2. The Weakness Hypothesis: This one argues that women are simply too physically weak to handle the strenuous demands of military service. Well, I’m sure some are. So are some men.

This is the weak link of her 5. She goes into great detail about various sized individuals dragging others, etc. While I agree that anyone not meeting a set standard should be let go, the reality is that this is not happening, and likely never will. Take your standard IVAW member who would no doubt fail to pull a 50 pound sack of cotton if it meant not having to deploy. I would also note that the PT Standards are different for men and women. Not just in the military. Take for instance that we segregate all sports by gender. A marathon would not be won by a woman. A weight lifting event would not be won by a woman. A boxing match would not be won by a woman. She counters that while these might be true, that some women can perform feats of strength which some men can not.

Let me posit this. If 100 men and 100 women were sent to Ranger school, what percent of women would wash out and what percent of men? Are all college graduates smarter than all people who failed to acquire even a GED? Are all individuals who had asthma as children incapable of running long distances at the same rate as those who did not?

My point here is that we engage in statistical analysis constantly. There is a cost/benefit analysis that the military uses, and we shouldn’t be changing an entire system to cover the one aberation who transcends our rule.

On the practical level, I have seen female MPs arrive at the scene of a TIC who were unable to pull back the charging handle on their weapons system. I believe that both Ms Kayla and I would agree that such an indivual has no place in that role. However, if we start having a 80% washout rate among females, and a 10% rate among males, the uproar among “feminists” would be shocking. There would be allegations of sexism and lord knows what else.

I’m just touching on this one, as I am sure we will get a ton of anecdotal evidence in the comments section.

3. The Knight Hypothesis: According to this theory, men are such noble knights that if a woman they are serving alongside is endangered or injured, men will forget all their military training and abandon the mission in order to protect the woman.

I think she is engaging in some hyperbole here. There are certainly varying degrees of “The Knight” scenario. I have been verbally accosted more for such things than for any other horrific thing I do. When I lived in DC, I refused to remain seated on a metro while a woman stood. If she refused to take my seat, which happened fairly frequently, I still remained standing regardless of whether the seat remained unoccupied. Would I abandon all cover to get to a woman pinned down when I wouldn’t do that for a male? While I will never know for sure, I would like to think I would treat them equally, but I kind of doubt it. This isn’t a moral issue, or anything else, and I certainly would take no issue with someone who acted differently. What I do know is that I have seen women struggling with physical tasks that I have aided, while simliarly situated military males bore the brunt of my abuse. Again, I am not defending my admittedly sexist behavior, yet neither am I overly ashamed of it.

I think the drastic scenario she lays out is less likely to occur that some lesser derivation thereof. She further contends that:

Some men are willing to sacrifice their lives to save their comrades; those who do so may receive our nation’s highest recognition, the Medal of Honor. Would that sacrifice be less honorable if one of the fellow troops were female?

I have no clue what this adds to the argument. Perhaps I am being obtuse in my reading, but it doesn’t seem to further the argument. It is an act that is honorable, not the result, right? Jumping on a grenade seems honorable, whether those saved are women, children or hearty males. For those thinking this undermines my “seat on the metro argument”, I don’t view that as an honorable act. That is merely doing what has been ingrained in me as appropriate. Doing your perceived duty isn’t “honorable” per se, it simply is doing what your personal mores demand.

We had a female MP SGT that worked with us occasionally. She was tough, I mean the absolute perfect case study for Ms Williams’ argument on proficient women in the military. She was way tougher than me. (Every guy I served with will know the SGT, please do not post her name guys.) Anyway, one day in the MWR tent, I was seated next to her as she talked on the phone, and started crying. It effected me so bad I just hung up on the phone and left. Now, I certainly don’t begrudge her whatever was going on in her life, hell I cried over there too when I lost my dog. But the effect it had on me was wretched. I felt crappy for about a week because there was nothing I could do. If it had been a guy I would have slapped him on the head, told him to man up, and gotten some crap vodka off the locals to get him sauced.

Again, not a mark against women, more a mark against me.

4. The Lecher Hypothesis: This theory, conversely, argues that men are such awful pigs that they won’t be able to concentrate on their missions because the presence of females will make men think only and always of sex.

Um. Yeah. Sign me up on this one. While not “only” thinking of sex, my in-depth study of men and women in proximity in a foreign country has proven scientifically that when a female is present, your average infantryman dedicates 90% plus whatever the male determines said female to be on a scale of 1 to 10 of their cognitive functions to the woman. Our last few days in country a unit came in that had a young lady who in a previous life had been an exotic dancer. As we were preparing to SP one day she was talking to some of my guys. Despite my burying a foot in the ass of every man present, we very nearly took off without the machine gun affixed to the pintle. If young lady had been young lad named “Steve” I suspect we would have SP’d on time with all the pre-combat checks completed to standard.

She draws an analogy to how workplaces in the US are not brothels. There seems to be a ton of intra-employee extracurriculars going on here, but either way, one key distinction is that there, rather than here, you don’t have your significant other there each evening. It is simply biology that dictates that young people will have sex. I can’t think of a situation where young males and young females are together that this doesn’t happen. I work as a counselor at Boys State each year, and my biggest fear is what these yuts will say to women walking around. I am vaguely aware that college is little more than an excuse for relations, although I went to an all-male college, and on account of my belligerent disregard for accepted behavior barely ever was allowed off campus.

Dudes, especially combat arms guys, are incapable of rational thought in the presence of young women. Especially when they are in a country where the women cover themselves head to toe. Is that 100% true? No, but I suspect that the average IQ drops at least 30 points when women are present. I am not defending it, not by a mile. It was the biggest pain in the ass imagineable as a squad leader. But it does happen, and you have to base policy on actual realities, not some aspirational reality.

5. The No-Need Hypothesis: Some people posit that the military doesn’t need women, there are enough willing and able men to get the job done.

I haven’t really heard this argument much. I also don’t even know how one would debate it, since as you point out it is largely demonstrably untrue. Plus, I think that women in the military is a great thing.

So, to sort of wrap up my thinking….

It sounds like I am arguing against women in the military. Nothing is further from the truth. I just don’t agree with some of the logical leaps Ms Kayla has made. Women have served as key components in Afghanistan and Iraq and will continue to do so. I agree with Kayla that standards need to be made, and those not meeting the job requirements need to be shifted. But not seeing that young Joes turn into neanderthal man when around women doesn’t help the problems any. They do, I know, I was one of them. Just look at this military blog. Our #1 google search? Angie Harmon. Over at Sniper, most read day? “Titillation Tuesdays.”

Again, not defending either my behavior, or other men around me, simply saying it exists. I hold doors, I give up my seat, and I call women “ma’am.” I don’t know if it is right or wrong, it is simply what I do. I was taught it was right, I am now being told it is not. I am completely cool with women on Poguedishu Bagram Air Base, not as much on far flung FOB’s. When I went out on patrol and had to go, I went. If a woman had been present, I would not have done so without first finding a secluded firing position (as it were.) Right or wrong is irrelevant. It simply *is*.

Proceed to tear me to shreds for my mysogyny.

Category: Politics

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Jonn Lilyea

What ticked me off about her post is that she framed it in terms relating to women in the military when what she really wanted to argue was women in combat units. The women in the military issue is dead – they’re there, and I appreciate that. I’ve seen women who do their job better than most men in the military. I’ve seen men who are worse at their jobs than any women could be.

If she wants women in combat arms jobs, she should say that rather than write that men are misogynists because we all want women out of of our military. I don’t know any male who would argue with her about that.

I’d go further in depth, but I’m operating under a gag order in regards to Ms. Williams from a woman who frightens me.

BohicaTwentyTwo

I don’t have the time or the inclination to go into a detailed response, but being a former Air Defense officer, I have served in the only official co-ed combat unit. Let me make just two comments regarding the Hygiene Argument.

1. During field exercises in South Korea, the SOP for our Patriot Battery was that every five days, males were allowed back to the rear to take showers. Females were allowed every three days, for hygiene reasons.

2. Williams states that “women who don’t want to deal with the hassle of monthly menstrual cycles can use hormonal birth control to reduce their frequency.” Seriously? Is she suggesting that women should be forced to take birth control in order to serve in combat arms?

OldTrooper

We experimented with taking women with on a task force assignment. They were, of course, rear echelon support personnel (fobbits) that were in co-ed support units. It was a failure, because of the animosity that had grown due to them having “special accomodations” that caused delays, along with manpower and resources to be diverted from the mission. I’m not saying that they had requested it, however, the special accomodations were put in place by command for obvious reasons. For a unit used to moving fast, that doesn’t sit well.

What Ms. Williams alludes to in her argument is that women don’t need to have such accomodations supplied for them. As TSO stated, when you have to relieve yourself, it’s done in front of everyone, that’s just the way it is. Would women feel comfortable dropping trow right in front of everyone else, or would they demand “special accomodations”? Would they feel comfortable doing so? Would the men feel comfortable doing so in front of women? These are the things that Ms. Williams doesn’t answer and I doubt she could speak for other women on the matters I forward.

Just A Grunt

Same old tired arguments, year in and year out. Yeah I spent my career asa n Infantryman, but I also did time in an MI battalion, (LRSD & S3) and also as an instructor at Ft Benning. A couple of stories, I will try to keep brief, but humor me. MI is coed. We had some of the best soldiers, who happened to be women. On the other hand we had the slugs too, just like any unit. One thing the women learned to do, since they knew that they did not possess the physical strength of their male counterparts, sorry gals physiology, was come up with ingenious ways of using the abilities they did have. They certainly relied much more on teamwork then the guys who would just muscle through a problem or task such as loading camo nets onto a vehicle. Next story involves a congressional delegation that came to Ft Benning and visited the Hand Grenade range. On that day we had a regular unit going through training that was coed. While observing some of the training a female senator, who remain nameless from CO, remarked how the females were having a hard time meeting the requirement of throwing a grenade 15 meters. Her first question was about making a separate standard for woman. The initial response that hit my mind was, no, idiot, because the burst radius of the grenade is still the same. The idea is to be able to throw it far enough away that you don’t become a casualty. I held my tongue, and explained that it was an issue with upper body strength and that a lot of females do not have the experience of throwing objects like baseballs like men do. I fully expected her to then propose making a less explosive grenade for women and maybe we could color code them for identification. Fortunately she didn’t go there. Last story involves SFC B. She was my NCOIC for the gas chamber. If you went through the gas chamber on Ft Benning anytime between ’96 – ’99 you got to meet… Read more »

Brown Neck Gaitor

OT,

“Would women feel comfortable dropping trow right in front of everyone else, or would they demand “special accomodations”?”

The women would not be asked to do so for fear of them yelling from the rafters.

defendUSA

Okay…I’m gonna let the men be men on this. While I am dead sure there are women with the strength and fortitude to tough out any situation they are put in, Ms. Williams does not provide any objectivity here.

In survival training, the question was always asked if you are female how do you maintain hygiene? Well, we were told to scrub the crunchies out of the undies or turn them inside out and basically just deal with the rest. I don’t have a problem with that or dropping trou to do what needs to be done in front of anyone. But that’s me. And I was medical. Go figure.

As for the battle and who would save whom…Ms. Williams acts as though the mens are trying to keep her from saving comrades so she can have a medal, too. Honey. Get with it. I would hope that sex didn’t matter, adrenaline would kick in and all would be well. But, let’s face it, it might not be if it’s the chick having to do the saving,strength and body mass are a factor. Period.

And as my husband can attest…Sex, the act, is on the mind, whether happily married or not. He is also like TSO. Give up the seat, open the doors, etc…I am very independent and like to be able to fend for myself when not in the watchful eyes of the spouse and I can, I have proverbial balls.

However, I was reminded by a great friend who is male to let him be the man he is. It’s okay.
As a female soldier, I got it. There are some things I cannot do, nor would I want to. (Okay, I’m lying. I would love to train hard core with an SF guy, or Navy SEAL just to test my toughness) But some things indeed, just are. It is that simple.

Old Tanker

Now, Who is with me?

Denise Richards struck me as a damn fine bug fighter…..

Is that what she did outside of the shower scene?

OldTrooper

Ummm, I think you’re on your own with that one, TSO.

I’m just sayin…….

Just A Grunt

So that is why TSO like World of Warcraft. In that game gender plays no factor in the powers of your character.

BTW after commenting on this at home, my daughter bought me the game and along with it comes a 15 day free trial.

I have been checking it out, so if you see a wandering, obviously lost Level 6 Dwarf Hunter who is getting his butt saved all the time by some Level 700 wizard, or whatever her character is, that’s me.

Brown Neck Gaitor

Hey, I thought you were going to send your cash to me?

Brown Neck Gaitor

Don’t listen to him JustA, “CV” is actually the toon for a North Korean gold farmer…

1stSgt D

Having spent the better part of my 20 years in combat arms, my exposure to female Marines, has been somewhat limited. One the few occasions that I had contact with and lead female Marines. I was nothing short of shocked and dismayed.
I was told in 2005 during our workup for Fallujah, that I would be getting 6 female Marines attached to my Company, on the off chance that we took in any female Prisoners. 1 of the 6 was an outstanding hard charger, the rest were substandard Marines at best. Had they been male Marines, I would have left them behind, as I did a dozen our so Male Marines for being substandard.

Second time was as a newly minted First Shirt. I pushed to stay combat arms, but was selected to take an OMC unit. Again, out of roughly a dozen female Marines, 2 were good to go, the rest were substandard. When I made attempts to help and fix them, I was told to stand down. I was reminded repeatedly that I was no longer in a combat arms MOS.

While attending the 1stSgt course, I had the chance to talk to others, to pick their brains on how to deal with and ensure the success of female Marines. I honestly want all Marines to succeed.
As long as the meet the standards. I was told that I would pretty much need to turn a blind eye to 90% of the female Marines as it would not be worth the hassle.
This I refused, as it is my sworn duty to uphold the standards and traditions of the Marine Corps.
Turns out they were right, it wasnt worth my time or trouble.
Those that want to can pretend all they want that males and females are equal when it comes to combat, it wont make it any more true, but it will give people a warm and fuzzy on creating fake gender equality. All the while, slowly and steadly eating away at real combat effectivness.

JustPlainJason

A friend of mine related a story about women and men having to ‘drop trow’ in front of each other. The guys were just squatting and taking a dump, then a female came out and put on her poncho before she took a dump. My buddy was…hey thats a good idea. I think that the hygene issues are overused.

Joe

Jonn,
I think you’re a gentleman at heart – even talking about women (in the military) you’ve cleaned up your usually, shall we say frank, language…..

Junior AG

“Would women feel comfortable dropping trow right in front of everyone else, or would they demand “special accomodations”?”

The female I worked with on my first tour put a poncho over herself and handled nature’s call & I pulled security and kept the Afghan militia/civilians at bay.

Women can be effective Soldiers, provided the Soldierization process isn’t hobbled by political korrectness and they are made to adapt to military life, rather than the military be forced to accommodate them…. A pox on the house of TRADOC and our body politic.

Junior AG

One of the commentors about Kayla Williams wrote the following:”Then again, it’s been extremely successful for the mercenaries and contractors; we just didn’t know that that was the goal.”

Hate to break it to the commentor, Bush isn’t the only President who utilized contractors. Clinton hired on MPRI to train the Croats in the Balkans wars of the 90s. Those MPRI trained Croats waged a doozy of an ethnic cleansing campaign during Operation Storm in ’96 when they ran the Serbs out of Krajina. I recall contractors training us up at our MOB sites back in the day for Bosnia and Kosovo, had one long haired CIVILIAN get all Command Sergeant Majory on us about chin straps. Kind of a bitter pill to swallow.

ponsdorf

1stSGT D hit the nail.

I’m 40 years out of the Navy and I never served with a female (nor an openly gay male) so my perspective is limited.

BUT, so long as exactly the same standards (not equivalencies) are not in place combat arms types are placed at risk from the PC police even before they’ve seen an enemy. It’s just common sense!

Army Sergeant

I think that we shouldn’t let the problems of this current society stop us from creating the ideal next one.

1stSgt D

Contractors go way back, in fact contractors were captured along with Marines at the battle of Wake Island in the opening days with the war against Japan. Many of which picked up rifles and fought alongside the Marines.

UpNorth

Selena, there is not, and probably won’t ever be, an “ideal society”. Even though the current leadership is trying to craft one, it won’t work. At least, not until mind control is perfected.

OldTrooper

AS: Let’s hold hands and sing Kumbaya; shall we? It depends on what your version of the “ideal society” is. Something tells me yours is far different from mine.

ponsdorf

Army Sergeant said: I think that we shouldn’t let the problems of this current society stop us from creating the ideal next one.

Perhaps you might amplify a bit?

What form do you see coming?

Mind you, idealism is a wonderful thing, but your statement is unclear.

OldCavLt

The question for me has always been are women more trouble then they’re worth in the military?

The answer is yes.

Does anyone feel a draft?

But then, the military today has an unbelievable support to fighter ratio. The more we rightly depend on technology, the more support will, most likely, be required. Relegating women to support roles only MIGHT justify their continued presence… but I have to emphasize “MIGHT.” Because our increasing dependence on those who cannot or will not do the job is costing us big time, now.

And referring to the moronic Starship Trooper movie which bastardized a fine political science tome, there were no women Mobile Infantry types, even with the Mobile Infantry’s powered armor (Not even portrayed in the movie) that gave their wearers fantastic amounts of strength in the book.

In fact, the “women are equal” scene was put in there to broaden the demographic appeal of the movie… a failure at best.

In the end, like any military decision, it should only be a cost vs. benefit equation, unswayed by political correctness, feminism OR misogyny.

JustPlainJason

Old Cav Lt. There you go invoking Starship Troopers (I refuse to call that piece of crap that vehoven made by the same name)… Granted it has been a while since I read the book, but wasn’t a majority of the Navy made up of women? I don’t remember the book adressing why there were no women in the Mobile Infantry, but I do remember that it was Rico’s last choice…he just wasn’t qualified for anything else. I need to pick it up and read it again sometime soon, hopefully I will have some time in between school.

Frankly Opinionated

1stSgt D Says:
December 29th, 2009 at 5:22 pm

Contractors go way back, in fact contractors were captured along with Marines at the battle of Wake Island in the opening days with the war against Japan. Many of which picked up rifles and fought alongside the Marines.
Actually, contractors go very far back. The “Priviteers” were private contractors. We employed civilian scouts, (contractors), in both the Revolution and the Civil War.
In todays age, when contractor usually suggests “Blackwater”, Bush is blamed/credited for enabling the security contractors to get gummint work. Actually, it was silly Billy, who determined that the US Marines didn’t need the “detail” of guarding our embassies. He opened the job slot to civilian contractors, and Erik Prince seized the opportunity.

“Never Forget Ft. Hood Texas 11/5/09!”

Ben

Women in the military is ab absolute catastrophe. Books could be written on this subject. Actually, books HAVE been written on this subject. Kayla’ snippy tone is pretty silly as well.

But…unlike most of liberals’ social experimentation, the damage cannot be undone. In the meantime, can we stop kidding ourselves that women are doing “a great job”? Not that I saw in my four years in the military, which included mixed-gender and male-only units.

ssg Dirty Al

Just a couple of notes; 1) Denise Richards wasn’t in the “SHOWER” scene. DAMN! 2) My 1st born is a Marine and oh She’s a Marine and on her 2nd trip to Iraq she volunteered to be a Ariel Gunner. My baby girl humped a ma duece (watch it guys)and did it fairly well, from what I’ve heard. Missed getting her AC wings (?) by a couple of trips/hours. I’m still PROUD as Hell of her. Would I want her in the Infantry, Hell NO!

Junior AG

“it was silly Billy, who determined that the US Marines didn’t need the “detail” of guarding our embassies.”

He also hired MPRI to train & advise the Croatian Army… Charming batch of ethnic cleansing those ustashe nazi bastards did to the Serbs in Krajina…

I haven’t seen Obama take any measures to rid our dependence on mercenaries… Has anyone else?

“Contractors go way back,” Oh, yes they do! If anyone’s a history buff, I suggest: “Corporate Warriors” by Peter W. Singer. Details the escapades of the British East India company.

JustPlainJason

Wow Ben is back again…and still as stupid as the last time he commented.

Lisa

Sir, you are a man who loves women. And I love you for that.

Lisa

Miss Ladybug

I sure as hell wouldn’t want to drop trow in front of everyone…

I think there IS a place for women in the military, but not in combat arms. I’m a “retired” Army brat, but I didn’t investigate joining the military because I didn’t think I had what it would take to succeed in Basic (I hate running, getting up really early, don’t deal well being yelled at, and I’m a picky eater). All that being said, this lady is all wet in her arguments. As others have said, you can’t make judgements based on the exception. The military is supposed to be serious business: if you’re in the military, you need to be able to perform the job you are tasked with. With front line units, hygiene would most definitely be an issue for most females, especially at isolated outposts with limited “amenities”… Just my 2 cents…

1SG Cliff

I was in the Army for 26 years, was a 1SG in both Tank Companies and a BDE HHC and was a tanker for over 20 years. Most of the females that were assigned to my HHC were extremely intelligent, hard working soldiers who were physically fit (according to the female standard). I can’t imagine a female (many males had a very difficult time of it as well) loading a 120mm main gun during combat, let alone during a TTVII qualification, they just don’t have the upper body strength. Since I can’t talk for my infantry brothers, I can say that most females do not posses the physical strength required to do most of the heavy maintenance on combat vehicles, breaking/replacing track comes to mind.

Debbie Clark

I’m proud of my eight years of military service, but, speaking as a mother, I made sure my daughters didn’t join…