Legal scholar questions government/media narrative on Mar-a-Lago raid
Jonathan Turley’s blog raises questions regarding what the media and relevant government agencies have claimed about the Mar-a-Lago raid. The order for the raid lists the FBI’s claims of what was taken from the residence, as well as the order to do the search. What was absent was the affidavit listing the arguments justifying the raid.
Given their track record regarding the energy by which they pursued specific cases, are we to simply take the FBI’s word about what was found not just based on the inconsistency of their actions, but on how they’ve treated potentially actual and more serious cases? The apparent double standard being applied is not the only inconsistency. A legal scholar questions some of the circumstances related to the raid.
From Jonathan Turley:
1. Attorney General Merrick Garland said that the DOJ would have used other less intrusive means if they were possible. Yet, it would seem that such options were not just possible but obvious, including the use of a second subpoena. Moreover, even if a raid was necessary, it is not clear why the DOJ would descend upon Mar-a-Lago with such a massive show of force rather than send a few agents over with the warrant.
2. If the FBI believed that there was nuclear-related information in the resort, it certainly did not seem to move with dispatch. The last communication, according to the Trump team, was in June. Even after securing a warrant, there was reportedly a delay in executing the warrant. Why?
3. If the FBI suspected that high-level material was retained at the resort, did they identify the material to the Trump team and demand its return? It is hard to imagine the Trump Team telling the FBI to pound sand if such a demand was made. Yet, such a denial would readily support a showing of probable cause. Moreover, adding a lock to the door of a storage room would not be viewed as sufficient for material at the apex of classification levels.
4. Did the warrant specifically identify the material or the classification level? If the warrant sought the recovery of any possible classified evidence, it would again raise what was stated in the affidavit and the reason why such material was not acquired in the June subpoena despite the reported cooperation of the Trump team.
5. There remains the role of the confidential informant and what the person shared with the DOJ. Was there evidence of active concealment of the material or merely a statement of additional documents being stored at the resort?
Jonathan Turley has the entire blog article, as well as articles related to the law, here. Meanwhile, this has been a financial boom for Trump’s fundraising efforts.
Well, I just caught Poetripper LYING
over at the Weekend Open Thread.
And then thebesig dismissing what has come down this week that makes Trump look bad as “propaganda”.
Hey folks, if you can’t tell the difference between a
“Never Trumper” (2015-2017)
and a
“No More Trumper” (after November 2020),
then you should refrain from your insults and name calling,
especially your incorrect thinking
that calling anyone who is displeased with
Trump’s behaviors in 2021 & 2022 is all of a sudden a “Never”.
It doesn’t work that way.
I was on the Trump Train for over 5 years.
The Trump Train stopped at many stations,
and many chose to get off.
Please
1 – Grow up
and
2 – STOP LYING.
Wrong, you did not catch Poetrooper lying. And quit lying about what I labeled as propaganda. What I identified as propaganda was the claims that he took classified material and kept them contrary to law.
Additionally, you don’t define what constitutes a “never Trumper”. It does not work that way. That term has evolved over time, your definition is now archaic. The never Trumper crowd expanded to include those who formerly were for him. So, calling you and others who are currently against Trump as never Trumpers is using correct thinking.
Don’t tell us to “grow up” and to “stop lying”. You continue to have anger issues, control issues, and excessive ego issues, which drives you to tangle against us (contrary to your ego based reasoning on the other thread).
Acknowledge the fact that you’ve consistently been wrong before telling anybody to “grow up” or to “stop lying”. Your meme, personalized for you…
Hell hath no fury like a Never-Trumper scorned… 😜
I’d be really careful calling any here a liar, MarineDad. Disagreeing is fine, even welcomed. Getting personal does nothing except attract Admin attention. Again.
AW1Ed,
Now that I put up the screenshot of the lie,
perhaps now you can attend to the “getting personal”
by Poetrooper and others.
Thank you.
Poe… 🙄 😇 😜 😇 🙄
MDud… 😢 😭 😡 😭 😢
No, that was a screenshot of Poe expressing his opinion based on a trend of posts that he had seen. He may have assumed that you’ve always been on the left and, by extension, were also happy about the anti-Trump propaganda being pushed. This was not a case of Poe seeing that you were against such information, then turning around and claiming that you were.
AW1Ed is not the only one seeing the “getting personal” aspects of your posts. Others are seeing this as well.
As for other people “getting personal” against you, if this is what you are implying, there are a lot of people who love to treat other people the way those people treat them.
MarineDad61, have you been drinking NPR and PBS Kool-Aid? If so, PLEASE STOP before it gives you permanent brain damage and you end up like Major Moonbat aka Commissar!
MarineDad61:
Knock it off.
This isn’t your blog.
If you don’t like it here, go somewhere else.
Mick,
Losing fans of outing the Stolen Valor phonies
in favor of protecting the fragile feelings
of some (maybe a dozen?) faroutthererightwingnuts…
Is not doing the primary cause of this website any favors.
A quick check of posts related to politics on this site, 2007 per one search, shows posts that are as “far right”, sometimes even more “far right” than what is being made in 2022. A strong conservative slant has been present on this site for a long time, even though the “golden age” of stolen valor here.
Your argument about “far out there right wing nuts” criticizes the trend of postings from the commentors on this site since this site has been around.
Your argument that this is “not doing justice” for this site is invalid.
As for your attitude about “protecting the fragile feelings”. That’s not what is occurring. Based on your actions over your postings, this is like saying that those who can’t handle your being an a* hole to them “have fragile feelings”. This is a refusal to see the negative blowback to your comments for how you should see them… You rubbing other people the wrong way. I mean, I’d have to go on Reddit to see as many negative karma as what you got above.
Here’s the screenshot of Poetrooper LYING.
You guys figure it out.
What if I tried this on any of you?
Well, we already know the likely outcomes.
So, thebesig is WRONG AGAIN.
And the rest of you can deal with the truth of a screenshot.
BUSTED!!!… 😴 😴 😴 😴 🙄 😴 😴 😴 😴
I enjoy seeing you post here, MD – both as a relative newcomer, and especially as a Republican who is now against Trump. So in that vein, may I offer some constructive advice?
First, you’re right. Technically, you’re absolutely correct. Poetrooper was wrong about you, since you don’t support Schiff and didn’t believe any the Russian stuff.
In the grand scheme of things, though, they don’t care. If I had a nickel for every time Poe or thebesig was wrong, I’d be typing this while surrounded by models on my megayacht. It’s commonplace. It’s like yelling out every time you spot tits at a strip club. Sometimes you just gotta roll with it.
So, argue your points, but avoid direct personal attacks. It can draw incoming fire from the admins, who do try to keep things reasonable. Perhaps unevenly at times, but it really is a thankless task.
Your voice is a very welcome addition to the site.
He was wrong; spectacularly wrong. Read the claim that was made: Poe “lied”. Poe would have to know Commissar’s, yours, and MD61’s actual positions, then say the opposite, in order to lie. That was not the case.
Before you tell someone that they are “right”, or that someone else is ‘wrong”, you have to advance a valid argument supporting such. You spectacularly failed to prove me wrong in our previous arguments. Others have similarly failed to do so. Thus, if you had a nickel for every time I was ‘wrong’, you’d have lose change for administrative errors.
Hint: Your opinion of what constitutes being “wrong” is not valid, your disagreement does not constitute the opposition’s being “wrong”. A fact based, reasoned, logical argument is needed.
The advice that you should have given him was to show tact, and to refrain from his anger issues, control issues, and narcissism issues, as these three drive his commentary and interactions.
Email is going around, t.
Response sent.
Ain’t gonna happen. LC is a libtard. You can tell from his statements that he smugly thinks he is smarter and better than all of us non libtards. Reason and facts have nothing to do with his statements.
LC,
Do you now see
thebesig actively DENYING the lie screenshot?
thebesig calling it an “opinion”?
And now AW1Ed announcing emails sent?
I just checked…
NO email for me.
The IRONY here,
the HYPOCRISY,
is we (ALL) expect Stolen Valor phonies
to come clean,
tell the truth,
admit their lies, false claims & statements,
and hold them accountable for their
(counter)attacks, insults, and labels
on others who called them out.
You can either accept the norms of the board, or start your own. Until then your comments will be moderated and approved by thebesig.
The decision is mine. Feel free to appeal to Management at your leisure.
This is so sad to see all of this, i.e. the bickering and fighting.
TAH has really changed.
It is becoming not an enjoyable forum to read and participate.
So Sad.
This is what it has become.
Sometimes, one just has to walk away when someone wants to get into a heated discussion.
🤔😞
😣
Never understood why some folks enjoy arguing on the Internet with folks they personally don’t know.
This is getting out of hand…and is so sad.
There ARE no Winners in this back and forth bickering.
One last thought.
If I am not mistaken, some of the folks here that others have a problem with have been TAH financial contributors.
Hopefully, the bickering, arguing, name calling will stop soon. Would love to see more folks come to TAH to exchange thoughts and ideas…not drive folks away from TAH and seek other forums to participate.
“Come on, people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another right now”
Have to agree with you ninja.
I do not know what has got certain folks so riled, but several of our beloved DWs need to go stand in a cold shower for a bit.
Thank You, Graybeard.
Agree on the cold shower therapy…especially on a Sunday…
You Nailed It!!!
👍👍👍👍👍👍👏👏👏👏👏👏
Contributing financially to the site does not grant a license to be a dick
Only a dickweed, or dickweedian, dickweedette, or maybe even dickwede.
100% concurrence
Perhaps it’s God’s will that people get into arguments. Lots of arguments were advanced in Scripture, the first one being the Garden of Eden scene.
Those that I’ve argued against usually have anger issues, control issues, and ego issues. For my doctoral research project, I’ve read loads of scientific literature covering people like this. A part of the reason to why these arguments take place, and people say what they do say online, is the lack of physical consequences that folks have.
I don’t have the ability to physically hold people accountable for their actions against others, but I could fight fire with fire. Many people will not be a doormat. This applies online, this also applies outside the internet.
Thank You, thebesig, for your feedback!
As shared with Poe, hopefully the situation will resolve.
Hope all remember that MarineDad61, LC and Commissar all have financially contributed to keep TAH alive and kickin. They also do provide at times a sense of humor when getting in discussion with others.
Again, we may not all agree with one another on issues, but in our assessment, that is OK.
Thank You again, thebesig…and all the best on getting your Doctorate Degree!
Well, this is interesting.
I replied to thebesig….and I have to get an approval?
Something is not right…
You’re not in Enhanced Mod Jail. Yet, anyway.
So I approved you.
What happened?
Too much gabn???
😆😅🤣😂😆😅🤣😂😆😅🤣😂
There were no links in the comment…
Something we said that triggered “Awaiting Approval?”
Wrong email?
Wrong name?
🤭
I’ve approved posts, from regular posters, who had a typo in either their name or email. This may have happened in your situation.
Ninja, as I mentioned in one of my recent replies, the financial contributions are appreciated. However, if those who donated to the site behave in ways that turns the community against them like antibodies against viruses, and we’re expected to treat them with gloved hands because of their financial contributions, then the later is not a donation but a bribe.
The site’s actions against MarineDad61, and against Commissar in the past, were moves to get them towards being less personal and more about engaging in argument or regular chatter. We had this rodeo with Commissar in the past, he appears to have adjusted. MarineDad61 hopefully will do the same.
And we appreciate you efforts and your patience with all of us DWs
Ninja, since ol’ Poe seems to be at the root of this brouhaha, may he remind you that this is nothing new to TAH. There have always been a few gadflies who come to this primarily conservative site to challenge the prevailing views.
As a firm believer in free speech, Poe has always argued that they should be allowed to do so, but in so doing, they must be prepared to deal with the blowback. Lars does this in his own manic manner while LC posts with more calm and guile. MarineDad61 is the only one who seems to have ongoing problems dealing with opposing views and that goes far beyond Poe.
He needs to keep in mind that no one makes him post here. It is childish and shameful the way he highjacked this thread to protest a comment by me at an unrelated article. MD61 needs to follow his own advice and grow up. He should act like a Marine’s dad…
Thank You, Poe!!!! 👍👍👍
Hopefully, the situation will resolve!
Appreciate your feedback!
Ninja: This is so sad to see all of this, i.e. the bickering and fighting.
It takes two to tangle. One of the debating sides could easily ignore the other side. Others are free to ignore the argument in process if neither side backs down.
True enough. But most of us really don’t want to read stupid ass liberal never Trumper bullshit on a forum that stands pretty much alone in not catering to libtards and their nonsense. We have no obligatiion to kiss their asses when they come here and get stupid. They can take their bizarro version of reality elsewhere, or conform to the norms and act like civilized people, which of course, they cannot do.
Ninja: TAH has really changed. It is becoming not an enjoyable forum to read and participate. So Sad.
In numerous posts, you’ve told others that you enjoy/like reading their opposing views. This encourages debate/argument. In the process of addressing the argument on this thread, you actually contributed to it. 😀
Ninja: This is what it has become.
This isn’t the first-time arguments like this popped up among the current or near current commenters. This has been happening for years.
Ninja: Sometimes, one just has to walk away when someone wants to get into a heated discussion.
That is a choice; however, if neither desires that choice the argument is going to continue. I am not a fan of letting BS stand unchallenged.
The human nature that goes into debating online is the same as the one involved with face-to-face arguments. However, one of the key differences is that one side generally cannot drown out the other side from having their say like someone putting their hands on their ears and saying, “Nany nany boo boo I can’t hear you” while attempting to deny the other their say. Many of the people criticizing internet arguments do so because they do not have as much sense of control on an online environment as they could achieve in a face-to-face argument.
Ninja: Never understood why some folks enjoy arguing on the Internet with folks they personally don’t know.
When countless among the opposition like to be a* holes online, partly because they could say things online that they may not say in a face-to-face encounter, one has to take enjoyment in hammering them.
Ninja: This is getting out of hand…and is so sad.
You did a large part in breathing life into this thread addressing an argument that would have died out sooner.
Ninja: There ARE no Winners in this back and forth bickering.
Who says anything about winning? This is fun, having fun is an objective worth engaging in arguments over.
Wrong, I did not deny the screenshot. If you read my posts without anger flowing through you, you’d see that I had seen that post.
Accurately pointing out that you were wrong about Poe “lying” in response to your above post, is not “denying” the screenshot. It did not prove that he “lied”.
If you’re comparing our argument to stolen valor, then you’ve done exactly what nonveterans have done when they falsely accused a veteran of not being one. You clearly made an erroneous claim, I countered that claim by pointing out what Poe actually did. That’s not denying reality, truth, etc. That’s actually describing reality.
On the emails, ask yourself this question. Who did he say emails were sent out to? You, or me? If AW1Ed had a message for the whole community, don’t you think that maybe, just maybe, he’d make a post? Your lamenting that you did not get an email proves my statement that you’re driven by anger, control, and narcissism issues.
MD61, I’m going to ask you the same question that’s been repeatedly asked of Commissar:
If you hate this place as much as you seem to, why are you even here? It can’t be for the discussion, because what you do is far from discussion. You berate and belittle everyone who does not agree with you. People are sick of it.
Well, to borrow from your imagery, LC, ol” Poe would say the number of times you’ve shown him to be wrong is more akin to yelling out every time you spot tits in a San Francisco bath house… 😉
BTW, your little triad of Trump-haters here seems to think that this time your side has the goods on Donald.
It appears the White House doesn’t share your confidence:
It Wasn’t Us! White House Panics as Mar-a-Lago Backfires – Throws Garland, DOJ, FBI Completely Under the Bus (westernjournal.com)
But what do they know, hmm?
Yeah that just scares me no matter which way you cut it — if they truly didn’t know (which I personally don’t believe is the case) then you clearly have renegade factions doing whatever the hell they please behind the back of the weakest and least popular administration in US history, proving what we already know — Biden is not really in charge.
“First black lesbian therefore I’m qualified” Jean-Pierre can say whatever she wants at this point, there isn’t a person in America over the age of three who believes any shit she spouts.
That’s one of the things I was referencing when I hammered you above.
I’m not “wrong”, nor am I “wrong again”. I’m correct. You accused Poetrooper of “lying”. In order to lie, he would have to honest to God know that Commissar, LC, and you “did not” get pumped up over Trump’s Russia collusion, then subsequently claimed that you guys did.
However, if he did not remember if all three of you got pumped up, two got pumped up, or only one got pumped up, then he expressed an opinion that may not have been completely correct. That’s not lying. If it was, you’re helplessly addicted to lying.
My statement, that he was not lying, is an accurate statement. And, if you tried that on me, I would respond with a valid argument sans anger issues, control issues, and narcissism issues.
The only figuring out that needs to be done is for you to figure out how to change how you “analyze” things and how you advance your arguments.
I wouldn’t call it an opinion. I would call it an unintentional misstatement of fact. And, since I am somewhat of an expert in unintentional misstatement of facts (aka not knowing what the eff I am talking about) I would consider mine to be an expert opinion.
You do know that lying is an *intentional* misstatement of fact, right? And you do realize that people do make unintentional misstatements of fact, right?
Actually, telling a lie is more than making a misstatement. According to my dictionary, it is “an assertion of something known to the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive.”
Except that nothing he said up there was untrue. It was pretty much spot on. You are the one who is lying, and you deploy libtard 101 when called on it.
No, you didn’t, and I suggest you take your own advice and grow up, MD.
That, or stick it where the sun don’t shine, kiddo.
I judge Institutions by their actions, or the outlying consequences, especially when outcomes are presumptive and disastrous.
That being said, Turley glosses over the very real lose/lose trap FIB set themselves then willfully, intendedly, stepped in without regard to the safety of all things American.
Rather than allow such questions to fester and grow, early and total transparency would seem in the public interest.
What if they find nothing? What if its proven they knew they’d find nothing and did it anyway?
What if they do find something? What is the weight of that something and is it disqualifying, whom does it DQ?
If they swing and miss, which looking at the process and procedure, looks likely: what are The Programed going to do with that impotent rage?
If they hit (and part of me wishes this were the case, out of concern for Law and restoration of Faith of our system) what are the next steps? Who else falls? Does the Exective Privilege erode only for; outsiders, change-makers, the other party?
Is it applied with fairness, retroactive to all who attended GHWB’s funeral?
Now before us you have two animated factions, either set of outcomes will aggrieve the other. The real question, the one framed at the top is this: could this be THE desired outcome?
A Revolt elicited by false contrivance so as to subsume more power? cui bono indeed.
Pray for civility. Prepare for a worsening.
Can’t edit, above first (h/t moi) panel was a quote from Turley:
R-D regrets the oops, copy and paste don’t carry format. He now knows.
Be careful. Your honest mistake could be construed as a lie.
LOL
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
4th Amendment
AG Merrick Garland
I’m waiting to see the affidavit, describing the probable cause sworn under oath before the Magistrate by the Feds. Is it just me, or does Merrick Garland have a little “Deer in the Headlights” look?
He had to be compelled to do this. The AG does not have authority to act unilaterally.
Who pulled his string?
……
What really happened prior to, and in the meeting 20JAN17?
I hear talking heads bemoaning the intense pressure Merrick is under from both sides. Cry me as river; an honorable man would resign if unable to support. We should all kiss Mitch McConnell on the mouth for keeping this spineless lackey off of the Supreme Court.
Yeah, politics is ugly.
*grin*
J. Edgar grins…and is pea green with envy.
“…simply take the FBI’s word…” NO!
This sort of stuff would not have happened if old J Edgar was still around. He would not tolerate the upgefucking of his FBI.
You’ll see this one again.
So… Merrick is coming out of the closet?
Might as well; he has already felated his way to the top of the regime.
They searched Melania’s closet. So was this just one big panty raid? Wow, I am in awe of the professionalism of the FBI. /s
I wonder how many of them took turns sniffing her lingerie and shoes, I don’t put that past them.
> I don’t put that past them.
Neither do I. Seriously.
Can’t help comparing him to Fauci.
Both of them short little mousy turds.
Garland sweating like a pig…..
One of the things that happened before Rice crafted this cover-your-ass memo is that 0bama himself was briefed by Brennan that the Russia, Russia ploy was a plot hatched by the Clinton team to discredit Trump prior to the election. We have seen Brennan’s hand-written notes of that meeting/briefing of 0bama. So, the people in that meeting that was the subject of her memo already knew the “Trump is a stooge for Russia” was a complete hoax created by the Clinton mob.
Who? Who do you think did it? Biteme is too feeble-minded to come up with that, so I’d bet it’s some jealous wrinkled flabby female wanker who is pissed off because she didn’t get the nod back in the beginning of this turmoil.
His prime handler and cohort in crime – Obama.
These are socialist democrats here. They do whatever they want. Until we make them bleed for it.
WOW, another heavy commenting session. Recliner time in 15 mike. I hear some rumbles of thunder so going to the WX map to see whats going on. The dust coming in is keeping the T-Storms and hurricanes at bay here but west of us, they are getting rain
So, the Archives already had the 15 boxes but left 11 sets of docs in question there, justifying the raid to secure said docs or somethin’…
Yup
Seems like a nice
guy… lady…um them to me.?
Manly Democrat??? 😂
What the hell is that?
DS-10 pay grade?
Biden Admin nuclear expert.
No joke.
ORANGE MAN BAD!
NO MEAN TWEETS!
That is because Twitter is for twats. Orange Man refused to come back even after the Twitter-twat honchos invited him back.
I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but wasn’t it only a few days ago that the official story was that Garland and the DOJ had nothing to do with this warrant? It was FBI, all the way down?
When I first heard the “news” about the warrant a day ago I immediately thought of the Clintons and Sid Blumenthal. It was a good laugh. So, until those folks are in jail I don’t want to hear a word about Trump’s document “problems” from those toad effers in “The Media”.
Look, NOBODY knew about the warrant.
A low level flunky went and got a warrant on a former POTUS with aspirations to run again and tons of close allies in congress and who nominated nearly half the SCOTUS bench and including the current director of the FBI without telling a soul because he knew no one would care. And if the flunky has to retire early because he over stepped… well it’s either that or they retire him early instead and then blame everything on him after he is gone and um unable to speak for himself due to suicide by decapitation.
List of people who for sure didn’t know beforehand and have no idea what people are going on about:
Joe Biden
Kamala Harris
Merrick Garland
Vladimir Putin
Bill the Cat
General Miley
Christina Bobb
Hunter Biden
People Who Knew but kept it on the down low:
Bruce Reinhardt
Angela Noble
R Kelly
Vicente Fox
Jennifer Lawrence
Santa Claus
General Scott Jansson
Why the hate on Bill the Cat?
You will find out this fall on Fox.
Bloom County coming to Fox? I need to get out more.
You left out Tweety & Putty Tat, Bugs bunny and Daffy Duck.
Don’t forget Woody Woodpecker while you’re at it. Come to think of it, he’d be at least ten times more competent than the vast majority of those in DC!
Executive orders from Bush and Obama allowed the sitting president to take classified documents from the Oval Office to the residence. The president’s authority to declassify documents is instantaneous, and do not need to meet the stringent requirements set forth by people appointed by the President to carry out the president’s duties.
Link to article.
I want the affidavit, dammit! Who raised their right hand and swore to Magistrate Reinhart they had probable cause to execute a search warrant, and what that cause was. It’s starting to sound like a process crime, which would be ridiculous.
When I clicked on the link to the order for the raid, I quickly scrolled to get to the affidavit but got to the end with no affidavit in sight.
Behold my fields of affidavit…
You will never see the affidavit, just like you will never see the grand jury testimony before the District of Criminals grand jury that will indict Trump. They have to indict Trump on some bogus charge so they can use it to try to bar him from ever running for office. Marc Elias the evil emperor of the Lawfare cabal has implied as much in one of his recent tweets.
Everyone except Trump is allowed to do it.
Turley posed the following question: “Moreover, even if a raid was necessary, it is not clear why the DOJ would descend upon Mar-a-Lago with such a massive show of force rather than send a few agents over with the warrant.”
The answer? Optics. They wanted to get a photo or video of flashing lights, squad cars and agents with guns to imply a crime. Those visuals will persist with people forever, no matter if Trump is cleared of everything. The same idea with the two impeachments – create a stain.
And, that’s what they got, a photo of two agents with AR’s standing at one of the gates at Mar-A-Lago.
All of this is further proof to me of how totally scared shitless the left is right now and they’ll do anything on a moment’s notice strictly out of fear and panic. I would keep a much closer eye on a stupid enemy than a smart one, “A Man is much safer in a room full of vipers than one full of hungry men.”
Also keep in mind that those people are not fully rational, and thus are capable of just about anything. They are like large 9 year olds, but when they lose control and go bugfuck, they can hurt or kill people. When I find I am dealing with a liberal, I immediately go on alert and make ready for possible kinetic involvement.