Easter Open Thread

| April 4, 2021

Happy Easter everyone! Easter season is 50 days long; today’s the first day of Easter. The 50th day of Easter, Pentecost, occurs on May 23, 2021. Eastertide, Paschaltide, Paschal season, and Easter time are other terms for these 50 days.

Category: Open thread

Comments (39)

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  1. Mick says:

    First!

    • Mick says:

      Happy Easter to everyone on Team TAH.

      • KoB says:

        And to you too, Good Sir, and a ditto from Firebase Magnolia for all of the miscreanted d’weeds and Adorable Deplorables. Glad you happened along to snag the Easter Open Thread FIRST, I wasn’t going to touch that thing with a long range maverick. Coulda cooked my goose and flew me right into a danger zone. I just put that on ice, man and kept reading the FGS linkys till your comment dropped.

        We can now say it…He Is Risen!

  2. The Stranger says:

    Christ is Risen!

  3. 26Limabeans says:

    Fond memories of my aunts, uncles, cousins and family
    gathering for the event. Corned beef and cabbage. Boiled or
    baked ham (ooh the potatoes). Perhaps a shoulder roast as well.
    Coctails for the adults as they watch egg hunters uncover any
    and everything around the yard in search of the golden one.
    Now an old man living alone yet still hopeful for a positive
    outcome in life as we await the return of he who left us here.
    Be kind to one another fellow warriors. Never give up the struggle
    for peace everywhere.

  4. Happy Easter to everyone out there.

  5. Sparks says:

    He is Risen! Morning to all of my TAH family.

  6. thebesig says:

    “Risen from the dead” should be read from the understanding of the ancients. Today, when someone passes away, Heaven is described as “gaining an angel”. It wasn’t always this way.

    In ancient times, the dead went to the Kingdom of the Dead, the underworld, Hades, etc. After a short period of time visiting with survivors (depending on belief system), souls went down to the underworld and stayed there. In most situations, they could not leave.

    However, if their spirit is seen among the living, they were described as “risen from the dead”. They were allowed to rise up from the underworld… To rise from the dead. We see this in the parable that Jesus gave that involved Lazarus and the rich man. Both passed away. After an exchange with Abraham, the rich man asked for Abraham to send Lazarus to his family to warn them. However, Abraham responded that if his family did not believe Moses and the prophets, they would not believe one risen from the dead.

    There are other clues in the Bible that indicate that what they saw after the crucifixion was not flesh and blood but a vision of an apparition. This goes beyond mere sighting. Throughout the Bible, a vision of the spirit may also include interaction as if that spirit was flesh and blood.

    “Even though you saw me eat and drink, I did not eat or drink anything; what you were seeing was a vision.” –

    …Tobit 12:19. Arch Angel Rafael reveals his identity.

    This does not take away from the meaning of the resurrection, as this has to be seen from the point of view of the ancient Judeans and Christians.

    Before, it was a common conclusion that the majority of those who passed away descended into the underworld. Not something that people were looking forward to. There were exceptions, like if you died in battle or did something significant that benefited humanity. There was a nice beautiful place waiting for these individuals.

    In the case of the Judeans, they had reached the point to where most of the regular people felt that they were forever condemned. Many didn’t have money to get the necessary sacrificial animals in order to get the Temple staff to atone for them.

    Jesus’s message basically boiled down to informing people that they did not need all of that stuff. All they had to do was regret going down the wrong path, and commit to going down the path that God set. They did not have to be rich, they did not have to pay the high priests to gain favor, they did not have to purchase expensive/prized sacrificial animals.

    On top of that, with Jesus’s defeating death (including the underworld’s hold on humanity) and sin, Jesus’s followers understood that they were no longer confined to passing away and going straight to the underworld. Just take action to put Jesus’s words to practice (eternal life).

    There are other meanings as well, just mentioned a sample above.

  7. AZRobert says:

    Taking the Superstition out and leaving the Supernatural takes digging, but it’s well worth it. The Naked Bible Podcast has a lot of rabbit holes for interesting digging. The J-Man is indeed risen and it’s with Grace and Mercy I’m still here.

    Thanks for all you guys n gals do here!

  8. Commissar Pooper's Narcissism says:

    My niece’s children are trying to tell me that I could stop looking. They found all the eggs. But they do not understand. I am not looking for eggs. I am looking for my brains. I have been looking for my brains since this morning. Still no luck. If any of you guys find it, hit me up.

    • KoB says:

      Your brains are still in your colon, just past your flattened out prostate. They popped out the last time you tried to get your head out of your azz.

    • 11B-Mailclerk says:

      Not appropriate to this thread.

      But you are forgiven.

      (Grin)

  9. Wilted Willy says:

    Happy Easter to all my friends at TAH!
    I truly love and miss all of you!!

    • 26Limabeans says:

      Happy Easter WW. I was thinking of you recently fearing
      we had lost a brother. Glad to see that is not the case.

      • Wilted Willy says:

        Thanks brother, I recently fell and broke my spine, so have not been able to get up and move around too much! Finally able to move a bit now, but a very slow recovery. I keep running into everything with my new walker!!

    • Graybeard says:

      A happy and blessed Easter to you, too, WW.

      I’m glad to see you around from time to time.

      May God continue to bless and keep you.

  10. Green Thumb says:

    Mt best to everyone on this special holiday.

  11. Graybeard says:

    Had more folks attending our Sunday School class in person than we have had in 13 months today – a few still on Zoom as well.

    Without the literal physical death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, then there is no hope.

    But He did physically rise from the dead, therefore we have the opportunity to come before the Father without being cast out into outer darkness because of our sins.

    He is Risen, indeed. There is hope, and joy, and peace available to all.

    • thebesig says:

      In 1 Corinthians, Chapter 15, verses 35 through 37, and 42-49, Saint Paul provides a detailed explanation about resurrection, and how it occurs. People, understanding decomposition, asked what kind of body would return. Saint Paul responded that we have two bodies, an earthly one and a heavenly one. The earthly body is our flesh and blood. The heavenly body is our spirit.

      He went on to explain that we would not die as people assumed, but change… From our physical body to our spiritual body. Saint Paul’s explanation is given with the understanding that people believed that souls went to the underworld and stayed there.

      Being able to leave the underworld, and even bypass it, is the real significance of resurrection and the purpose of Christianity.

      Elsewhere in letters following the Book of Acts, Jesus’s being in the flesh is referred to in past tense.

      In the Book of Acts, Peter talked about how Jesus appeared as a vision to a select group of people. Apparitions appear to a select group of people. People in flesh and blood are seen by those who could see. Also, if you read the description of how Jesus shows up in the middle of the Apostles, in a closed room, and their reaction to his appearance, it reads like a ghost story.

      Indeed, he has risen, but not in the same sense that people think of it today.

      • Graybeard says:

        I respectfully disagree with your interpretation.

        The disciples saw and touched the physically resurrected Christ.

        “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you [plainly] see that I have.” – Luke 24:39 NASB20

        The 1 Corinthians passage to which you refer says:
        But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of mankind, another flesh of animals, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written: “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING PERSON.” The last Adam was a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy one, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly one, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written: “DEATH HAS BEEN SWALLOWED UP in victory. “WHERE, O DEATH, IS YOUR VICTORY? WHERE, O DEATH, IS YOUR STING?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. – 1 Corinthians 15:35-57 NASB20

        The passage in Luke forestalls the interpretation that the “spiritual body” of which Paul speaks does not have a tangible aspect. It is not just a vision, an illusion, an appearance, a nebulous something, but is something that can be touched, felt, can eat and drink.

        Luke makes this clearer in Chapter 24:
        And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! “Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures. And they approached the village where they were going, and He gave the impression that He was going farther. And so they strongly urged Him, saying, “Stay with us, for it is getting toward evening, and the day is now nearly over.” So He went in to stay with them. And it came about, when He had reclined at the table with them, that He took the bread and blessed it, and He broke it and began giving it to them. And then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight. They said to one another, “Were our hearts not burning within us when He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?” And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together and those who were with them, saying, “The Lord has really risen and has appeared to Simon!” They began to relate their experiences on the road, and how He was recognized by them at the breaking of the bread. Now while they were telling these things, Jesus Himself suddenly stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.” But they were startled and frightened, and thought that they were looking at a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you frightened, and why are doubts arising in your hearts? “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you plainly see that I have.” And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and astonishment, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They served Him a piece of broiled fish; and He took it and ate it in front of them. – Luke 24:25-43 NASB20

        Jesus insisted they touch Him and see for themselves.

        John in his Gospel reinforces this:
        Now when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were together due to fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and said to them, “Peace be to you.” And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be to you; just as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” But Thomas, one of the twelve, who was called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” Eight days later His disciples were again inside, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be to you.” Then He said to Thomas, “Place your finger here, and see My hands; and take your hand and put it into My side; and do not continue in disbelief, but be a believer.” Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you now believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” – John 20:19-29 NASB20

        Thomas could physically touch Jesus’s resurrected body. Several days later, Jesus meets with the disciples by the Sea of Galilee while they are fishing, and has them come eat breakfast with Him. (John 21)

        That there were schools of thought before, during, and after Jesus’ time that denied the resurrection of the body (such as the Sadducees: Now some of the Sadducees (who maintain that there is no resurrection) came to Him, – Luke 20:27 NASB20 ) – that there were such schools of thought in existence by no means forces us to the conclusion that Jesus’ resurrection was only some “spiritual sense” and not a resurrection of His physical body.

        The Scriptures, in their entirety, are consistent in maintaining that He was physically resurrected. However, the resurrected body that He has, and we shall have, is not limited like our current flesh and blood mortal body, but shall be created new as His now is. It will be like but more than, in ways that we cannot now comprehend.

        Any teaching that Jesus was Resurrected in some sense that denies His tangible physical body being transformed into a tangible form is inconsistent with Scripture.

        • thebesig says:

          Graybeard: I respectfully disagree with your interpretation.

          I wholeheartedly disagree with your misinterpretation of the verses that you are quoting. My disagreement with you is based on my having read the entire Bible, from the beginning of the Old Testament to the end of the New Testament. I’ve done this more than once.

          My argument is based on the recurring theme that runs from the beginning of the way to the end.

          In order to understand any specific verse that you read in the Bible, you have to understand that entire theme that runs throughout the Bible. You have to understand every book and every verse that precedes that one passage that you are referencing.

          Your responses indicate that you have not read the entire Bible. Instead, your argument is based on a combination of doctrinal teaching, and a misunderstanding of the passages that you quoted.

          Originally posted by Graybeard

          “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you [plainly] see that I have.” — Luke 24:39 NASB20

          Having read the entire Bible, I knew that you were going to mention this. I also anticipated that you were going to mention Lazarus. Either way, what they saw and felt was not flesh and blood but a vision:

          “Even though you saw me eat and drink, I did not eat or drink anything; what you were seeing was a vision.” — …Tobit 12:19.

          The Arch Angel Rafael reveals his identity to both Tobit and to his son Tobiah. What happened was that Tobit sent his son Tobiah on a mission. Tobiah was accompanied, on this mission, by a fellow traveler. This traveler assisted Tobiah with accomplishing what both Tobit and Tobiah wanted Tobiah to achieve.

          During the journey, the fellow traveler did everything you would expect a living, breathing, person would do. He ate, he drank, he moved items, and was otherwise seen as a regular person. However, when they were going to pay him for his services, he informed them that he was Arch Angel Rafael. And, all the things that was seen, with him, that made one thought that he was human, was all a vision.

          The implication here is that your chosen quote above was a vision. Yes, even the sensation of feeling somebody is a vision. So is seeing someone, who was supposed to be deceased, drinking and eating. That is a vision.

          Additionally:

          “After this he appeared in another form to two of them walking along on their way to the country.” — Mark 16:12

          Why would he appear in another form? Mary thought that he was the gardener. Does a living breathing person, flesh and blood, change appearance into a completely different person? Many of the disciples that saw him, after he resurrected, did not recognize him.

          Here’s another one, the verses that come before the one that you quoted:

          “While they were still speaking about this, he stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 37 But they were startled and terrified and thought that they were seeing a ghost. 38 Then he said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do questions arise in your hearts? — Luke 24:37-38

          They thought that they were seeing a ghost as he acted exactly as a ghost. Two guys previously saw him vanish relate this to the apostles. Then, as this was going on, Jesus appeared in the middle of the group that the original two guys are talking to.

          “And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them. 31 With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight.” -Luke 24:30-31

          A point that was being made, that emphasized the “feel the holes to see that I have flesh and blood” was a point about seeing and believing vice seeing and not believing. Earlier in the Gospels, Jesus talked about people’s eyes being open but not seeing. People’s ears being open, but not hearing. They were physically seeing Jesus, but they were not believing that it was him.

          Then, they build on this concept by saying blessed are those who believe/have faith in Jesus without having seen him.

          Understand that the purpose of the Bible is not to provide historical or scientific fact… Or even an accurate narrative account of someone’s life or a civilization’s history. We see this while reading the different Gospels.

          The Old Testament is a series of stories, allegories, symbolisms, etc. The Gospels are packed with parables. The purpose of the Bible is to provide a series of stories, allegories, symbolisms, etc. to provide a moral lesson. A golden theme runs throughout the Bible.

        • thebesig says:

          Originally posted by Greybeard:

          The 1 Corinthians passage to which you refer says:
          But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of mankind, another flesh of animals, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written: “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING PERSON.” The last Adam was a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy one, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly one, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written: “DEATH HAS BEEN SWALLOWED UP in victory. “WHERE, O DEATH, IS YOUR VICTORY? WHERE, O DEATH, IS YOUR STING?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. — 1 Corinthians 15:35-57 NASB20

          This entire passage supports my argument. Again, your interpretation shows that you have not read the entire Bible.

          The first part of the passage, that you quoted, reiterated how the dead are raised and he calls the questioners fools. First, he explains that something has to die before it comes to life. Elsewhere in the epistles, and even in the Gospels, a grain is used to symbolize our physical body. What happens to a grain? It has to “die”. It is buried in the ground, like a body is interred. Then, it grows into a grain stock that pushes above the ground. This grain stock is a symbol of the spiritual body, which rises above the ground. It is the grain “resurrecting”.

          He talks about how God gives everybody a body as he wishes. In the Old Testament, in Genesis, when God gives orders to humanity to be fruitful, to multiply, and to subdue the earth, he was not ordering humanity to breed like rabbits. That phrase is a commission to do work. God began creation as a spirit. Then, he created humanity as his work tools to continue his work. He infused his spirit into these “work tools” and commissioned them to continue, physically, to do the job that God started.

          People have different talents and abilities. Collectively, they are doing God’s commission. To be fruitful is to be productive. To multiply is to create abundance. That is why we are ordered to be fruitful, to create abundance. To subdue the earth is to do the first two parts while leveraging the earth. We are told to create civilization and societies. In order to do that, God created us with different bodies with different skill sets.

          God similarly gives that commission to the animals. This is what St. Paul is covering in the portion of the passage about different bodies among humans and among animals.

          Then, as you read your quoted passage, he talks about heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. He clearly draws a difference between the two and identifies the two as being the same person. We have an earthly body, our flesh and blood, and we have a heavenly body, our spirit.

          He talks about resurrection of the dead. Again, this is spoken from the context of what the ancients understood. The ancients understood that most people that pass away went to the underworld. The underworld is the kingdom of the dead. It was beneath our feet. In order to “raise from the dead”, one had to be able to leave the underworld and be able to visit the land of the living. They have to go up, or rise up, from the dead. This is not saying that they rise up as flesh and blood.

          Notice, in the passage that you quoted, that a perishable body is sown, and an imperishable body rises? The grain, again, symbolizes the body. The burial of the body symbolizes the sowing of the seed. Do we see a seed rising above the ground intact? We don’t. We see a plant with the husks of the seed if the seed is still visible. However, what rises above the ground is a plant that looks different from the seed.

          Again, the seed represents the physical body. The plant represents the spiritual body. Now, I noticed that you highlighted Adam as a living person and all capitalized letters, but did not highlight the follow-on statement from that. The first man, Adam, was a living person. The last Adam, which is the same as the first Adam but in a different state, was a life-giving spirit. He was talking about Adam’s spirit. Adam passed away, and his spirit left his body.

          Do you see what I’m getting at here?

          If you continue reading his explanation about the physical body (first) and the spiritual (second), you would notice that he ties the two together as our one identity. Now, read further down in your quote.

          “…that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable”.

          Here, the “Kingdom of God” that he is talking about is the spirit world. We cannot enter the spirit world as flesh and blood. Jesus entered the kingdom of God. By extension, Jesus was a spirit, and ascended as a spirit.

          Further down, he talks about how we would not die, but we would change. If you read the accounts of those, who had near-death experiences, their descriptions would be the same. They would describe that they “died” but from their perspective, they did not feel like they died at all. Instead, their perspective changed, but their life had a continuity.

          If you read further down the passage that you quoted, St. Paul delivers a knockout blow to the idea that we would resurrect as flesh and blood and ascended into heaven, by extension to the argument that Jesus ascended into heaven as flesh and blood.

          He argued that the perishable does not inherit the imperishable, nor does the imperishable inherit the perishable. He drives this home by saying that the mortal puts on immortality. How do we do that? Our flesh and blood dies before we inherit the spirit world. By extension, Jesus physically died and then later ascended into heaven.

          Now, onto your all capitalized emphasis on death being swallowed up in victory, and on death not having a stain.

          I direct your attention to beginning of Genesis. The first thing that God creates is light, he saw that it was good, and then he separated light from the darkness (Genesis 1:3-4). Many people assume that God was creating daylight. This is understandable, as the following verse describes God as separating the two in describing one as day and the other as night. However, as you read further down the passage, God creates the sun and the moon to rule over the day and night.

          But wait. If God already created light and identified it as day, and the sun wasn’t created, then what exactly is being talked about when God first creates light?

          When God created light, and separated it from the darkness, the author is saying that God created what is morally right (light) and separated it from what is morally wrong (darkness). Throughout the Bible, day is used to symbolize what is morally right, and night is used to symbolize death.

          The light created in the beginning, and its separation from the darkness, is reiterated again when God tells Adam which fruits he could consume (symbolic of light) and which fruit he was not to consume (symbolic of darkness). But as a consequence, if Adam were to consume the forbidden fruit?

          That he would “die”.

          However, did Adam and Eve die when they consumed the forbidden fruit? Physically, they did not die. Herein lies your misinterpretation of what you highlighted in all capitalized words in your quote.

          We see this same concept again in the first commandment, second verse… That we are to have no strange gods (darkness) before God (light).

          What St. Paul is saying, when he talked about death being swallowed up, and it losing its sting, is that God’s definition of what is right would prevail over our definition of what is right if there is a contradiction. Where Adam and Eve fell victim to death (consuming the forbidden fruit), Jesus defeated it (life, death, resurrection). Hence, the argument that was also made in one of the letters of the apostles, that through Adam we all died/sin and died but through Jesus we lived.

          The final sentence in your quote supported what I argued above. We no longer have to offer sacrifices to atone for sins. The sacrifice of Jesus took care of that. All we have to do is regret going down the wrong path (darkness/sin) in favor going down the path that Jesus wanted us to go down (life/God’s precepts).

          It’s that simple. Follow Jesus’s commandments to circumvent the underworld. That is the good news, that is the victory.

        • thebesig says:

          Originally posted by Greybeard:

          Luke makes this clearer in Chapter 24:
          And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! “Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures. And they approached the village where they were going, and He gave the impression that He was going farther. And so they strongly urged Him, saying, “Stay with us, for it is getting toward evening, and the day is now nearly over.” So He went in to stay with them. And it came about, when He had reclined at the table with them, that He took the bread and blessed it, and He broke it and began giving it to them. And then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight. They said to one another, “Were our hearts not burning within us when He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?” And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together and those who were with them, saying, “The Lord has really risen and has appeared to Simon!” They began to relate their experiences on the road, and how He was recognized by them at the breaking of the bread. Now while they were telling these things, Jesus Himself suddenly stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.” But they were startled and frightened, and thought that they were looking at a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you frightened, and why are doubts arising in your hearts? “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you plainly see that I have.” And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and astonishment, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They served Him a piece of broiled fish; and He took it and ate it in front of them. — Luke 24:25-43 NASB20

          First:

          “Even though you saw me eat and drink, I did not eat or drink anything; what you were seeing was a vision.” — …Tobit 12:19.

          However, your quote does not support your argument, instead it supports the argument that I made. You have to understand the Bible from the context of what is said in the entire Bible, not just the specific chapters and not just the specific verses.

          The first part of this quote involved a couple men walking on the road. Jesus approached them, but they did not recognize him. They knew who Jesus was and had seen him. However, they did not recognize the stranger they were talking to (Jesus). They were talking about the things that they had seen. Then, Jesus went through Scripture talking about all the things that the prophets said that Jesus fulfilled. Throughout this time, Jesus was trying to give them hints of who he was.

          Again, earlier during the Gospels, Jesus talks about people’s eyes being open but they’re not seeing. Their ears being open, but they’re not hearing. This part of your quote illustrates that point. Their ears were open, but they were not hearing. Their eyes were open, but they were not seeing. It was not until Jesus broke the bread that they saw.

          This is symbolic. Bread is symbolic of Jesus’s word. Jesus cured the blind, this is symbolic of opening people’s eyes to the Scripture. He did this with the two individuals that were walking. The breaking of the bread was symbolic of Jesus curing the blind, causing people to understand what the Scriptures are really saying… Enough to apply it in their daily lives. Their eyes were open, they saw and recognized.

          Then, Jesus disappeared. Flesh and blood does not do that. Spirits do. And yes, there are paranormal accounts, in the modern era, of spirits showing up and physically being able to do things that made the people seeing them think that they were alive as flesh and blood.

          Now, he describes these individuals running over to the apostles in order for them to describe what they saw. That is when Jesus appeared to the apostles. They reacted as people would react to seeing a ghost/spirit. Then, Jesus had to show them the holes that the nails made. Again, this emphasizes the theme about people’s eyes being open but not seeing. People’s ears being open, but not hearing.

          They did not believe that they were seeing Jesus until he showed them proof that he was Jesus.

          You’re hanging your argument on the passage about Jesus saying spirits don’t have flesh and blood. Once again, I direct your attention to the Tobit quote above. Jesus had to say what he had to say to open their eyes. In this case, “flesh, bones, blood” are symbolic of our tendency to be like beasts. Jesus, as spirit, was showing as life.

          No, Jesus didn’t physically eat the fish. Spirits don’t have flesh and blood; however, they have the ability to show up as a vision of living breathing flesh and blood person. The Angels repeatedly did this in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. As spirits, or as angels, they were able to project images and memories; hence, the visions of seeing spirits do things that only flesh and blood would do.

          See Tobit quote above.

          When the Virgin Mary was informed that she was with child, her reaction to the angel that informed her was similar to the reaction she would give to a person that just came up to her and said the things that he said. She knew that the person was important. Then, the angel departed the way a man would depart.

          In the Tobit example above, when they realized that he was an angel, they started to go in the prostration position, with fear. The Virgin Mary did not express similar fear. She thought she was dealing with an actual person. Instead, she reacted the way she would if a regular person, whose spirit was stirred by God, went to her to deliver God’s message.

          Yes, Jesus insisted that they touched him and feel him, knowing full well that they were seeing a vision. Again, see the Tobit example.

        • thebesig says:

          Greybeard: Thomas could physically touch Jesus’s resurrected body. Several days later, Jesus meets with the disciples by the Sea of Galilee while they are fishing, and has them come eat breakfast with Him. (John 21)

          Again:

          “Even though you saw me eat and drink, I did not eat or drink anything; what you were seeing was a vision.” — Tobit 12:19.

          The reality was that Thomas had a vision of touching Jesus. He did not physically touch Jesus, the way people could physically touch each other. Tobiah had to have touched Rafael during their journeys together, as would normally be the case when companions worked together to accomplish a mission. However, simply seeing Rafael do the things that only a living breathing human body could do was a vision.

          Also, notice that Jesus did not travel with the apostles. He told them to meet him at certain locations. He met them there. This is inconsistent with what he did prior to his death on the cross. This is typical of what a Spirit would do.

          Greybeard: That there were schools of thought before, during, and after Jesus’ time that denied the resurrection of the body (such as the Sadducees: Now some of the Sadducees (who maintain that there is no resurrection) came to Him, — Luke 20:27 NASB20 ) — that there were such schools of thought in existence by no means forces us to the conclusion that Jesus’ resurrection was only some “spiritual sense” and not a resurrection of His physical body.

          Again, you need to see this from this perspective of the ancients and not from our modern one. When were the books of the Bible written? The Old Testament texts were said to have been written after the Babylonian exile. Depending on school of thought, the New Testament books were written anywhere from a few years or decades after Jesus’s crucifixion, to a couple centuries afterwards.

          Either way, the audiences during that timeframe had a different set of understanding, different worldview, then what we have today. I explained a common mindset about death.

          They believed that when people died, when most people died, they went to the underworld. The Greeks called it Hades. The Judeans/Jews called the underworld “Sheol”. However, there were exceptions. If you died in battle, and died with honor, you did not go to the underworld. You went to a beautiful place, a paradise. We see, as an example, in a northern European mythology where half the battle dead are chosen by Oden to join him in Valhalla. The other half was chosen by his wife to hang out in her beautiful fields. Everybody else was understood to have gone to the underworld.

          Now, the question that you quoted above, regarding the Sadducees, was on whether spirits escaped from the underworld or not. The Pharisees believed that spirits will eventually be raised from the under world. The Sadducees believed that was not the case. The later believe that spirits stayed in the underworld for eternity.

          This was a big deal in the ancient world. In fact, our tradition of Halloween derived from an ancient Celtic observance that recognized that at the and of the old year, from the last sunset of the year until right before the new year kicked in, the underworld opened up and spirits were able to rise up from the dead and visit living. Then, they had to return to the underworld before the new year.

          So, the basic understanding, in ancient times, was that rising from the dead was done in spirit. Not as flesh and blood. This is the audience that Scripture was written for.

          Greybeard: The Scriptures, in their entirety, are consistent in maintaining that He was physically resurrected.

          Again, I read the entire Bible, from the beginning of the Old Testament to the end of the New Testament. I’ve done this more than once. I can say, with confidence, that your statement here is categorically false.

          Even your chosen quotes argue against your contention that he was physically resurrected. Especially when matched with the overall theme that runs throughout the Bible.

          Greybeard: However, the resurrected body that He has, and we shall have, is not limited like our current flesh and blood mortal body, but shall be created new as His now is. It will be like but more than, in ways that we cannot now comprehend.

          Neither your chosen quotes, nor anything that I’ve read in the entire Bible, Old or New Testament, supports your statement. You are trying to view this from a modern perspective, and not from the perspective of the ancients. Your argument is also a reflection of Christian doctrine rather than on the Christian Bible.

          Resurrection derived from a Latin word that describes something like what the sun does. In order for us to rise up, in another body, on a regular basis like the sun rises, we would have to reincarnate. There are passages in the Old Testament the utilize terms, like “seven heavens”, and “lower depths of the underworld”, that belong to the belief system that supports physical reincarnation similar to what is believed in the far east.

          Go back and read your quotes again, especially the one on 1 Corinthians. Saint Paul obliterates the idea that we resurrect in flesh and blood.

          Going back to Genesis, the passage about God breathing life into humanity. One of the words for “breathe”, in Latin, is “spiritus”. Meaning, the spirit of life is placed into humanity. Our spirit is life. Our physical bodies, and our physical surroundings, are an illusion… From dust you came to dust you shall return… Heavenly treasures not decaying like Earthly treasures… Meaning, life, true life, resides in the spirit.

          Greybeard: Any teaching that Jesus was Resurrected in some sense that denies His tangible physical body being transformed into a tangible form is inconsistent with Scripture.

          Again, a reading, and understanding, of the entire Bible, from the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation, does not support your argument about what is or is not consistent with Scripture.

          You can’t just cherry pick scripture, as you have done, then interpret it without also understanding every book and every verse that precedes those verses/chapters as well as those that follows them.

          Again, your quotes, especially the one explaining the two bodies, earthly versus heavenly, clearly explain that our resurrection is in spirit (immortal) and not in what dies (mortal).

        • thebesig says:

          Graybeard: You may want to look further at:

          Your links neither take from my argument nor support yours. I prefer reading the entire Bible to gain a better understanding of what is being said in the books of the Bible. The more you read the entire Bible, both the Old and New Testaments, the more you understand what Scripture is saying. You pick up more during the later reading than you did the previous reading.

          I plan on reading the entire Bible again in the near future. It was never meant to be read once, but read multiple times in entirety, analyzed, and matched to everyday activities.

          For example, mention of the poor in the Bible doesn’t just mean the person with little to no money. The poor is more broadly applied beyond our definition, but including our definition.

          A person trying to get in front of you on the highway, because he needs to get to the exit ahead of you, is symbolically “the poor”. You, having the power to accommodate this other driver, are symbolically “the rich”. Accommodating this other driver, in this example, is equivalent to giving alms to the poor.

          The Bible is a series of allegories, stories, symbols, etc., that gets a moral message across. The reader has to understand all the books that preceded the book that they’re reading to truly understand what they are reading.

          Relying on other people to do that for you puts you at risk of having the blind lead the blind. Jesus also mentioned something about the blind leading the blind.

          I stand by these arguments that I made on this thread and will gladly debate them with you until I am an old white haired man on his deathbed.

  12. Roh-Dog says:

    God bless every last one of you deplorable miscreants!
    Happy Easter

    • KoB says:

      DaHell you been? Happy Easter -Dog…and Welcome Home. We missed you…and WW…(but are aim is improving, just won’t lead as much next time. 😀

  13. OWB says:

    Just realized that yesterday was so busy that I did not get on line at all. So, a bit late:

    H*A*P*P*Y E*A*S*T*E*R everyone!! Hope your day was as great as mine. Not nearly as strange as last year. Busy, but very good.

    He IS risen. However you interpret that, whatever it means to you, may it bring you peace.

    • thebesig says:

      You are not late. Easter has 50 days, with Pentecost being the 50th day of Easter. Today’s the second day of Easter. :mrgreen:

  14. ninja says:

    A Special Song dedicated to our very own The Stranger. The KoB, OWN, Sparks, Greyheart, Fyrfighter, Akpual, HMCS(FMF) ret and others that I have missed!

    Because yes, indeed our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ,King of Kings, Lord of Lords HAS RISEEN!

    ALLELUIAH!!!!!

    Welcome back, Wilted Willy! You are missed!

    And hang in there 26LB.you and strong and an inspiration to us all!

    The Easter Song