Zimmerman trial controversy
I guess the big story for veterans in regards to the Zimmerman trial isn’t the incredible witnesses or the 911 calls, but rather why a cop who was testifying was wearing an occupation ribbon, among other military decorations on the stand. I’ve got an avalanche of emails, Facebook messages and stuff about it. Even Navy Cross recipient Jeremiah Workman got involved, I guess. From the Military Times;
The Sanford Police Department could not immediately be reached for comment. But Workman got a hold of them and said they told him they didn’t have their own awards system, so they went to the Army-Navy store around the corner and picked out Defense Department military ribbons to fit their own format. The WWII was selected, the police department official told Workman, because they knew there weren’t many veterans from that period alive so they didn’t think people would notice.
“At the end of his explanation I thought to myself, ‘So that makes it all better now because these guys are dead?’ ” Workman said. ”The fact that that was their response is still pretty shameful, I think.”
Honestly, I don’t see what the big deal is. As a commenter at Military Times said, there are only so many patterns that will fit on an inch-and-a-half piece of ribbon. As long as the police aren’t pinning Navy Crosses and Medals of Honor to their uniforms and claiming that they earned those ribbons, I don’t see the problem. I appreciate them being gentle with tax payer dollars. While I certainly wish they’d use other ribbons, I’m sure that between the five services, they’ve probably got every color scheme covered already.
Now if the officer was wearing a military uniform and those ribbons, I’d probably have a problem if she hadn’t earned any of them. But, it’s not stolen valor, in my opinion, unless she is trying to convince the media that she really did occupy Berlin at the end of World War II.
Category: Who knows
@43. “In a rare moment of mild agreement with AirCav…” You have now forced me to change position!
My point, and maybe I was too oblique with the Eddie Slovick reference, is that GIs are held to a much higher standard of action than public employees. It’s probably a good thing that Joe won’t face a firing squad for desertion, but no cop ever has-that’s the difference between what we do and what they do.
I feel just as strongly about EMS and PD. Yes, they can ‘quit at any time’ but (and this is the major point here) THEY DON’T. The Granite Mountain Hotshots didn’t look at the fire and go: “Um…Yeah, this one looks bad so we’re gonna sit this one out. Good luck, Yarnell and Wickenburg Fire…This one is too much for us”. Same with the Fire/EMS guys on 9/11. They knew there was a chance of the towers coming down on their heads, and they went anyway.
In that respect, they do have something over us in the military…We are do dangerous, dirty shit, and our bosses have the legal authority to order us to do it, even at the cost of our lives.
They, Fire/EMS/Police do dangerous, dirty shit here on the homefront and aren’t ordered to do it. They could theoretically ‘quit at any time’….But they DON’T. They choose to risk their lives for others. I risked my ass every time I strapped into that civilian medevc bird and went gallivanting around in the high winds and unholy black nights in the deserts of the Southwest because someone *has* to. In my opinion, they are just as much of public servants as we are, just in a different aspect. Respect where respect is due. A cop or a fire guy over a 20 year career in Detroit, or DC or Philly, will probably face more gunfire than most members of the military….and they choose to continue. Don’t denigrate our brothers on the home front…We are all there for the same goal: Protection of those that need it, be it the single patients that EMS cares for, the communities that Fire takes care of, preserving order in the PD or defending our way of life in the Armed Forces. One Team, One Fight, Different Missions.
ANCCPT-yes and how many New Orleans cops stayed home when the hurricane hit? I don’t mean to paint with too broad a brush, but sometimes they do quit. The Government has to know that there is someone who can be ordered to go and be able to enforce that order-and that’s us.! Like I said, not the same.
I’m an Army and NG veteran. I’m also a police officer. I’ve been a cop as long as I was in the army. About half of us are veterans of one flavor or another. We have armor officers, Rangers, Force Recom, 88 Mikes, admin specialists, 11Bravos, etc. etc. A lot of these police some of you are critical of are just like you, veterans.
Our department uses our own devices that are unrelated to the military. It’s not that hard to do that. What you see here is a crappy decision by a local chief. It’s too easy to get police appropriate devices. The officer isn’t at fault, though. Her leadership is.
For those that are arguing about whose job is more dangerous and who can walk away and when, I’ll say this. I’ve walked the line in both professions. Being a cop is definitely more dangerous than most of the time I was a soldier. Of course, times have changed since I ets’d. Our reservists and NG guys going over for multiple rotations, hell one guy got back yesterday, say a week in the hood on an aggressive patrol is more dangerous than what they did. One exception is Nate, who is Force Recon. He kicks doors on narcotics warrants for us, and he kicked doors in Astan. He said Astan, doing what he did was more dangerous. Depends on your mos. A year at Bagram is a lot safer than a year in south Atlanta on patrol.
Our department is about the same size as Sanford. We have 134 officers. I have no heartburn with the ribbons, but if I worked there, I would change that post haste. There are much better options that won’t piss anyone off.
The General section of the 18 USC § 704 – Military medals or decorations has been worded the same way since before I was born (1956). This section of the law has gotten people in trouble before and even though the Stolen Valor Act has modified the disparate sections of the law, this would not be considered Stolen Valor because the intent is not there; however it is technically against the law. The main problem with this law and other laws – THEY ARE NOT ENFORCED – and if we do not request that they be enforced, we should not even bother with the Stolen Valor aspect and ask that only that portion be enforced without asking for the rest of it to be enforced. (a) In General.— Whoever knowingly purchases, attempts to purchase, solicits for purchase, mails, ships, imports, exports, produces blank certificates of receipt for, manufactures, sells, attempts to sell, advertises for sale, trades, barters, or exchanges for anything of value any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof, except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both. Off my soapbox now.
@47: Thanks for that – I hadn’t realized that.
@51: I’ll remember this tactic in the future for when I REALLY want you to change position!
You can be brought up on charges of cowardice in numerous police departments. It is still a job! No jail…just termination or suspension. It is an Apple and Orange. As for the “gallivanting around the high winds” etc…was the LZ hot?
Again…apple and orange.
Bravery comes in all shapes and sizes. Jobs non-withstanding!
Today’s military is now considered a job…so thus the “confusement.”
The whole problem goes back to the application and enforcement of the law. In the case of the law that I was referencing, it at least goes back to at least 1890.
There are specialized Police and Fire Dept. awards that they could use that do not conflict with military awards. Those departments that use the excuse that it is expedient should be informed that ignorance of the law is not an excuse, is it not the same phrase that they use on other people.
@ #60: So the military can coopt a civilian award and the civilian department has to scrap their award? That ain’t right.
Yes, Today’s military is a job/career choice. It is a 100% volunteer Army. Gone are the days of conscription. People don’t have to stay; They just can’t quit midway through a term. You don’t like it? Finish up and get the hell out. I’ve known more than a few people that did.
And in some ways, yes it is apples and oranges. What I’m saying is that Civil service in EMS/Fire/PD and in the military carry much of the same risks. Cops in LA get shot at. Firefighters get burned. EMS goes into places people ought not go to get people out.
And of course it’s different going into a hot LZ; When people shot at us, we flew away until PD had the ground secured. We have hydraulic failures, power losses, and birdstrikes. We have assaults on crews and forced emergency landings. We had a crew last year go down off the helipad of a major medical center and a waiting room full of patients in the ED watched them burn. We’ve lost a lot of civilian air medical crews over the last few years too, it just doesn’t get reported as frequently. That doesn’t diminish their sacrifice nor their attitudes towards public service, which is my point.
The military is a noble calling. Country before self. Honor, discipline and sacrifice. But the guys who take care of the country, here on the homefront, while we are at war need not be denigrated for their choice of service. THAT’S my point. We are all serving what we perceive as the greater good. If there were no fire, no PD and no EMS here while we were off kicking ass and taking names in wherethefuckevercrapholeistan, what would we have to come home to? Nothing. That’s what. PD/Fire/EMS is a public service on the same level of the military. Different jobs; Different uniforms; different mentalities, but one goal. Protection of others. We can’t loose sight of that.
Clearly what we have here is a coverup. That police department is obviously a pack of wwii-era vetran…vampires.
I thought this trial was about a dead black kid and the guy who shot him? Something about a stand your ground law and whether or not that means you can defend yourself after you start the problem in the first place? Perhaps a legal battle over what constitutes a right to stand your ground instead of a duty to flee. Stand your ground under attack versus picking a fight and shooting the guy who is kicking your 4ss because you started something you had zero business initiating….
I thought those were the cognitive issues up for debate at the trial.
Instead this trial was hijacked into a debate about which colored pieces of ribbon belong to whom and what should be done about that hot topic, all the while there is no indication of any type of stolen valor whatsoever?
Of course it does make for an interesting situation, I mean if it’s okay for a cop to wear a re-purposed WW2 ribbon why can’t my security company re-purpose some old police badges or uniforms and use them to denote excellence in performance in a private security setting? Why can’t my private security company whose corporate colors are blue co-opt any military ribbon like the CIB or Medal of Honor or something less obvious like the blue army infantry cord and use it to denote higher ranking security officers?
Because it’s not ethically right that’s why….expediency to save a dollar doesn’t always make ethical policy, ask the folks at Morton Thiokol about saving a buck versus doing what’s right….just because something is not illegal doesn’t make it right, as witnessed to the liars and posers exposed here.
Police departments should respect the awards of the military, and create their own unique awards, small department or large department there is no excuse.
@13 – That’s the problem with this country, when people say “..not that big of a deal…?” That’s akin to “What difference does it make?”
You must be a French male model.
(You have to believe it – it’s on the internet, right?)
Wikipedia as a source of proof?
You’ve got to be fuggin’ kidding me with that horse-shit.
@ #20 for the win: they get to wear our ribbons, we get to wear their badges.
Come to think of it, we don’t need no stinkin’ badges…
@ #55 nails it- it IS easy to make/get ribbons done up- in fact, if they were to work with other local PD’s and sheriffs, I bet they all could share some ribbons and save even more effort. I bet there would even be state ribbons they could use without much problem.
I do think that awards are deserved and needed for those in the police, FD, EMT ect. The awards is question are those that were given by a Police dept to its officers. They then became part of that uniform so they are required to wear them.
The problem here is that Dept made a huge error in Judgement by electing to use military awards for that purpose. They should have used other types of awards such as those already available to meet this need.
All one has to do is watch the news to know that Police , fire and EMS personnel put their lives in harms way on a daily basis. I have seen these guys jump into a flood to save a stranded motorist, Walking into burning building to find a child or even a pet, Dive in fridged water to recover the body for a family.
No doubt these public servants have big hairy ones. It was pointed out they have the option to quit at any time, but yet most dont. And they damned sure dont do it for a bit of cloth, no more than any member of the Military does.
THe Dept is at fault here, not the officers. IF you want to be angry then fin but direct it whre it needs to go, not on the guy that got handed it as part of his or her uniform.
If I was a cop, and awarded a ribbon for doing “X” and later found it was a US Military Ribbon awarded for doing “Y” …I would really question who in the hell is running the show.
It is an indirect slap in the face to those who earned the “right” medal in the first place!
Her top outboard ribbon is the currently issued Air Force Combat Readiness Medal. Established 9-Mar-1964 and is still current.
They decided to do the ribbons on the cheap, they are a small department, probably not much a budget for this, thus a controversy. Most large departments have developed medals through the years. NYC police were consolidated in the late 1800’s and their high medals/awards date to that time with the themes around the badge of the time.
Do we really want to create incentives for Police Officers?Most of what they do concern American Citizens. Do we really want to reward them for busting balls on ordinary people.
What ribbon do they get for hitting the speeding ticket quota, oh that is right, Police Dept do not do that.
@71…they do perform valorous deeds…above and beyond at times… costing their own lives.
But in NO WAY can I equate them with the military.
Many similarities…but not enough to warrant the “copy” medals.
Is Officer Sanford wearing her dress uniform? Would she wear those ribbons on a daily basis? Or did they parade her out in court to make her look more professional?
The ribbons having different meanings shouldn’t fit well in this forum. It seems to me that this would just be another excuse in the course of spotting the stolen valor types. “I was just wearing my old police medals.” Then you have to go through a FOIA to check on their police service. Sheesh.
Oops Officer *Singleton*
Weapons Platoon, C/2/6, Berlin Brigade 1975-76, and despite what the dumbass police chief may think, I’m still alive.
The Army of Occupation Medal was issued to those in West Berlin from 1945 to about 199-something.
I have worked for a few dumbass police chiefs who were too cheap to actually spend money on stuff….
She looks like she woke up to testify after a night inclusive of a fifth of JD and 3 packs of smokes.
Professional.
Fucking sloppy.
#75, I believe the medal was awarded to the Berlin Brigade until 1994, when it was deactivated. My brother served there in the late-’80s with 6-502 IN (IIRC) In my opinion they could have and should have explored alternatives to using military ribbons. I used to moderate a military-related forum and actually took the time to create different “ribbons” and devices for use in users’ profiles (for things such as post count, longevity with the site, ranking, etc). The forum didn’t last, but I still have those little digital illustrations somewhere. Even counting all five services, the various state National Guards, JROTC, and ROTC, it is easy to come up with new patterns. That said, it is one thing to create a design and quite another to find a manufacturer and buy an amount large enough to justify printing the fabric and churning out the end result. Many larger departments have their own designs, and perhaps smaller departments should communicate amongst each other and adopt similar or identical awards (either to nearby large departments or at least to each other). A cop from Smalltown, USA attending a police convention would then at least have an idea of what his/her peers have earned in Anytown, USA, and vice versa. This would also permit those who leave one department for another to carry over whatever awards they’ve received with minimal fuss. As for wearing Army awards on the police uniform, it can get ridiculous fast. I was looking through the Facebook page of one of my acquaintances from TOG and saw him in his police dress uniform, complete with his Army awards. Though he only had six or so ribbons it looked out of place and tacky at best. The wear of certain ribbons to recognize prior service–the ASR or perhaps decorations (AAM and higher)–isn’t bad in itself; but wearing a full rack with a police badge detracts from the uniform. I’m still eight years from military retirement, but if I got out now and became a police officer in a department that permitted wear of military decorations, I’d look downright ridiculous… Read more »
A cost cutting measure that bit them in the ass. I don’t blame the cops wearing the uniform, it was more the work of a pencil pusher who screwed the pooch.
In my opinion Police awards should be more in the forms of written citations, Small service tenure pins are fine. Other than a badge and name tag it really doesn’t make a difference what they wear on a daily basis. It should be a neat, professional, work friendly uniform.
fm2176: AR 600-8-22, para 5-11, gives the end date of the Army of Occupation Medal for duty in Berlin as 2 Oct 1990. Award required 30 consecutive days “at a normal post of duty” while assigned to the Army of Occupation of Berlin (pretty sure that was the Berlin Brigade for US forces from the 1970s on).
@78, I agree. We are allowed to wear three devices that are similar to ribbons, but are made with some sort of enamel. No matter how many you have, you get to wear three. It keeps the clutter down on a duty uniform, and looks sharp. We have our own simple and unique color patterns that won’t be confused with anyone else’s awards.
Some carpet cop made a bad decision to save money. They probably never served in the military and didn’t know the importance of using older military ribbons. That’s not unusual. A properly worded letter with some of the above sentiments sent to the city manager, mayor, and chief might solve the problem.
This isn’t a stolen valor issue. The insult is that the Sanford Police Department wanted to dress up this cop’s uniform, and decided to pick some shiny trinkets at the local PX.
Those medals and ribbons mean something, they aren’t just bits of cloth, as a former presidential candidate tried to claim.
I think I will leave this discussion alone. It is sounding more like “Thread Nazi’s” in the Civil War Reenacting community. Of course the difference is that reenactor’s ARE trying to portray Actual military soldiers. This Department only showed a lack of ingenuity and laziness. What I took from the officers appearance is that she knew she would be displayed to the entire world, even in the military, when on display, you will dress appropriately IAW policy, as she did in her department. She displayed poise, intelligence, tact and maturity under the fire of the media and lawyers. And looked Damn Fine doing it.
I don’t know why my last posts haven’t been posted BUT the Chief has been contacted and has acknowledged the public’s displeasure and also his personal agenda to change the standing policy to remove the wearing of unauthorized ribbons medals and decorations.
Chip
Check the Stolen Valor Website