To be blunt….
Yeah, I knew that the President couldn’t make a speech last night that didn’t include a reference to the war in Iraq. And the Washington Post couldn’t mention his speech without a reference to his peace prize.
“To be blunt, we went down that road in Iraq,” Obama said, referring to the 2003 U.S.-led invasion that was done without United Nations approval. “Regime change there took eight years, thousands of American and Iraqi lives, and nearly $1 trillion. That is not something we can afford to repeat in Libya.”
Obama has sought to link American values with his foreign policy priorities throughout his presidency, and the arguments he laid out in his address Monday echoed those he made on “just war” when he accepted the Nobel Peace Prize in December 2009.
To be blunt, Obama doesn’t have to deal with Global Exchange shipping human shields to Libya. I don’t see any Congressmen standing on the roof of Gaddafi’s palaces telling the American viewing public how Gaddafi is more trustworthy than Obama. There’s no one accusing Obama of rushing to war. No one is taking at face value reports of Libyan civilian deaths, or mis-aimed bombs. Code Pink is “standing with” the Libyan people like they never did with the Iraqi people. No one is calling the three-nation coalition “anemic”. No one is complaining about Joe Biden being on vacation in Aspen, while the troops fight the war. No one is complaining about the president’s golf while the troops are engaged in Libya.
The public opinion deck, for some reason, isn’t stacked against the military action.
Category: Antiwar crowd, Barack Obama/Joe Biden
Bobo2012; I agree that there should have been more thought put into the after Saddam timeframe, however, I don’t believe that Bobo will accomplish anything in Libya, much less in 2 months.
I know that the generators don’t run themselves, the chow doesn’t make itself, etc. However, the DoD budget wasn’t as large as some seem to think (it’s only 17% of the overall budget) and if we want to talk about cost….$600 million in 6 days and there aren’t boots on the ground, yet!
I know, you can tell your young studly bf that this is just old experience talking from and old has been/never was/active duty type that served before the both of you were a gleam in your daddy’s eye.
I had my guard up at first becuase my bf says this site is a bunch has beens and never will bes.
I’d follow any of these “has beens and never will bes” before I’d piss on a burning community organizer…jus’ sayin’.
Jacobite- Serious question what was accomplished in Iraq? Slightly better schools and a weak government? Did we accomplish some good things yes but was it all worth it in the end? I am not so sure.
And without boots on ground in Libya, what exactly will be accomplished there, besides expending a shitload of ordinance?
>I think if Bush was still president you would be all for invading Libya.
If Bush were President, this wouldn’t be happening because Gaddafi was scared of Bush. He at least put on a show of civility while Bush was in office. Why–Iraq and Afghanistan!
#52 Like I said before, I don’t mind what we’re doing in Libya, I just think O’ screwed the pooch by waiting so long to sign on to the idea. #55 What was accomplished in Iraq? 1. We finally carried through on a promise we made to the Shiite population in Southern Iraq during Desert Storm, to overthrow Saddam in return for their assistance. A promise we did not carry through on in 1991, which directly resulted in the death of thousands and the terrorization of millions. If for no other reason at all, this was enough of a reason for me. 2. We halted the systematic genocide of two ethnic minorities, the Marsh Arabs, and the Kurds. 3. We toppled one of the most destabilizing dictators on the planet. 4. We interrupted Saddam’s active pursuit of a viable nuclear program. 5. We forced the removal of tons of biological and chemical weapons from Iraq. The only thing I’m unhappy about where this is concerned is that I firmly believe most of it made its way to Syria. It’s my hope that a Soviet mission was then responsible for seeing most of that material secured (there’s some evidence for this), but it’s impossible to tell. 6. We’ve managed to facilitate a working relationship between Iraq’s political parties. However shaky it may be, it exists, and hope and encouragement will go farther toward helping them strengthen their ability to work together, not doubt and nay saying by anti war apologists. 7. As you mentioned but tried to marginalize, schools and hospitals have been repaired, built, trained, and staffed. 8. Since 2008 we’ve helped over half a million displaced Iraqi citizens return to their neighborhoods, and have helped rebuild civil infrastructure that has been down and inoperable since 1991. We have also helped design and plan additional infrastructure to help supply the Iraqi people with resources and jobs over the next 20-30 years. 9. Have succeeded in creating an environment in Iraq which is less hospitable to terrorist organization and support. There’s more, much much more, but if one is determined to… Read more »
OBAMA2012- I am not convinced that you did actually deploy, but I’ll treat your statements as if you did.
It is impossible for you to have seen what Saddam did and immediately place it on the same level as the sectarian violence. Doing so makes you either a liar of the highest order or a morally bankrupt individual. Despite your claims of service I am confident that you never saw anything of the atrocities committed by the Saddam regime. You certainly never saw the torture cells in Fallujah, you did not interact with AQI emirs, nor were you ever face-to-face with Baath Party “enforcers”. You weren’t there when children and families were mortared because they lined up to vote. You didn’t see the effects of chemical weapons used against the Kurds. And you have the audacity to call us a “bunch has beens and never will bes”.
Your “memories” and “stories” are nothing more than internalized compilations from other servicemembers which are then protected from criticism by your insincere, passive aggressive apologies.
I suspect, given your statement about blood for oil, that you are embarrassed about your deployment, have not sought mental health counseling, and are now lashing out at other veterans in order to destroy the honor and valor that they earned.
Instead of focusing on your combat mission you chose to see whether “love can be born on the battlefield” and “didn’t go out that much after we got to rifles west”. If these statements are true, then this explains and proves much.
Obama2012….what did we acomplish in Korea? Do you honestly believe that a country can completely change in 8 years? Do you honestly believe if you talked to a Korean War Vet in 1951 he’d say we’d be buying cars, electronics, and appliances EVER from South Korea. We lost 50+ thousand troops there. Can you describe the difference between North and South Korea? Which one would you like to live in?
I am “offended” by your broad paint brush. “Has been?” I saw more combat on 6 May 69 then you and your bf have seen in your life. Look up LZ Carolyn some day. “Neo-cons?” If I don’t care for Obama I’m a “Neo-con?” How about if I didn’t like Bush or Obama? Got a name you want to call me for that?
I love the crystal ball all you “left wing communist sharia law loving cry baby liberals” have. (see I can paint with your brush also). So if Iraq doesn’t become The United States over night it was not a success? How you denigrate what you fought for. Give it some time baby-san, maybe the Iraqi’s will surprise you. Now Afghanistan…I think they will stay in the middle ages forever but what does the liberal crystal ball say? Please give me some of your sage advice on that.
You need to grow up sweetie and learn to get some independent thought. Not right or left wing talking points. Of course my education system taught me to think. Yours taught you to just believe what they tell you and obey.
Honor and Courage
Andy, I believe her when she says she deployed, there are those who just categorically disagree with everything that was done, and wish to deny that any good was a result. She is welcome to her opinion, as are others that believe the same.
In my opinion the most effective way of dispelling the misinformation and mischaracterizations is to continually beat on the hard facts of progress in Iraq and leave the emotionalism to others. I think this particular lady may indeed be in search of something to be proud of in her service, but has been to heavily influenced by those in her immediate circle of contemporaries that she respects as authority figures or ones to look up to.
I suspect, given your statement about blood for oil, that you are embarrassed about your deployment, have not sought mental health counseling, and are now lashing out at other veterans in order to destroy the honor and valor that they earned. Instead of focusing on your combat mission you chose to see whether “love can be born on the battlefield” and “didn’t go out that much after we got to rifles west”. If these statements are true, then this explains and proves much.
HOOAH, Andy! Git some! Well said! Hey you, lil Ms Obmam2012 young, wet behind the ears disrespectful broad? You better to get a new line of work lady, because the one your in now certainly doesn’t cock your trigger. Turn in your cross-pistols you lady are embarrassing as hell.
AirCav, you were one of the ‘300’ at LZ Carolyn?!
Well fought, hat’s off to you sir!! Thank you for your service.
Thank you Jacobite…my Scotish brother.
Charlie Co. 2nd Bn. 8th Cav. 1st Air Cav Div.
It was a helluva night.
Honor and Courage
As I said, I’d follow any of these “has beens and never will bes” before I’d piss on a burning community organizer…jus’ sayin’. Worth repeating.
#61
“She is welcome to her opinion, as are others that believe the same.”
Maybe my coffee wasn’t made correctly. Maybe I’ve just decided to stop being patient. Not sure which, but today I am not extending any bridging gear or consensus supplies.
FWIW….I present WWII and Germany. Was war with Germany worth it? That courty did not “heal” from the war until 1990.
Hopefully she sticks around. Believe Joe converted to the TEA Party after the lumps he took here.
1 at a time.
@ #64-1AirCav69 Welcome home, brother!Skytroopers Tried to find a “C 2/8” site…garryowen!
Agreed, 1 at a time. 🙂
Streetsweeper….thank you my 7th Cav Brother.
Charlie doesn’t have one that I know of. We “Stone Mountain” boys must be all computer illiterate…I know I am. I noticed you found the “Angry Skipper” site….Delta Company has a bunch of stuff.
Echo was with us on the LZ that night and also HHC. We were all given the VUC….I just didn’t know it until later.
Honor and Courage
“48
I did see what Saddam had done but then I also saw the power vacuum it created and the sunni shiite secterian violence that ensued. Obama will accomplish in months in Libya what it took Dubya years to and without any loss of life.”
Please tell me I’m reading this in my sleep.
Roll over ma’am, nothing to see here. 😉
If I had a nickel…..
roflmao……….
Good Grief!! Where do I get started well for one @Andy- Old Trooper had asked me in comment 46 if I had seen what Saddam had been doing to his people (in past tense obviously) when I said that I had I didn’t mean I was there I saw the fallout and the effects of it.
@AirCav69 I never called you a has been or a neo con. Old Trooper could make this claim but not you. And as for your insults to mine and my bfs service mine pails in comparison to yours but my bf has done multiple tours and was wounded in the second siege of Fallujah, so look before you leap sir.
My bf said you guys were a bunch of has beens and never will bes not me. In this little go between we have had I definately have had more insults thrown my way then I have dispensed. Jacobite has been the only one who has been professional in the least. Something you may want to consider if you want your site to get more visitors.
And please don’t compare me to joe I actually served. I am not some drive by liberal elitist who cites obscure literature to attack veterans.
“…mine pails in comparison…”
Somebody grab ROS before launch!
I used a mine pail to carry claymores once.
I just want to clarify my stance on Iraq I don’t think that we were raping and pillaging over there like my college professors used to say. I just don’t think in the end it was worth all the blood and treasure. Have I been watching too much MSNBC? All the Iraq vets I know think the same thing.
“To” late, PN. Whomever cleans up my grey matter will need to be in full MOPP4 gear; I believe I may be radioactive.
Obama2012, I’ll ask you the same question we’ve thrown at Joe.
How would you have responded to 9/11? Where would you have started, and how?
@ #80 – Well ma’am, now you ‘know’ a few Iraq vets that disagree.
How would I respond to 9/11? I think Afghanistan should have been the main focus throughout Dubyas reign of power. I wouldn’t have invaded Iraq. And I would use racial profiling on Middle Eastern looking folks boarding planes similiar to the way Israelis do, It may be impractical but I would have at least tried it.
> I think Afghanistan should have been the main focus throughout Dubyas reign of power. I wouldn’t have invaded Iraq
Theoretically though Iraq has more of a chance of succeeding as a bonafide modern government. They are atleast on this side of the 18th century. Afghanistan is still in the 11th century and will remain there unless we want to make DECADES possible centuries of commitment to bringing them to the future-something your hero has specifically shied away(and that is wording it nicely) from doing.
There is some truth to a democratic country being a model for other middle eastern country. Iraq hasn’t progressed fast enough to compete with the internet, so media and facebook has caused the current rash of “cry democracy.” And I still think there is major strategic value to being based in both countries that border Iran, but that is just my lay opinion.
“And I still think there is major strategic value to being based in both countries that border Iran, but that is just my lay opinion.”
That’s getting into larger geo-political concerns, and I most certainly agree!
Bobo2012 re; #84
I see we are in agreement for the most part about the whole thing. As I said, previously, I was not in favor of going into Iraq. I thought that we needed to concentrate on A-stan first, before going anywhere else.
I like your thinking on profiling as well.
>How would I respond to 9/11? I think Afghanistan should have been the main focus throughout Dubyas reign of power
Reign of power? LOL-when did we go back to the monarch.. BTW, using your logic-why should we have attacked Afghanistan..their government(the Taliban)had nothing to do with 9/11? They just gave aid and comfort in their country to the terrorists who did. A LOT of countries housed Al Qeada operatives and still do.
“I am telling my bf you said that to me.”
I’m just a one-term peacetime REMF, so in stuff like this thread I’ll usually defer to people who have actually deployed, but… are you serious?
Maybe you should have your boyfriend make his own arguments, instead of just having you come over and expect to be treated with kid gloves. Because I don’t think that’s going to happen.
I wouldn’t have had a big problem with going after the Saudis but that probably couldn’t have happened.
@Andy- Old Trooper had asked me in comment 46 if I had seen what Saddam had been doing to his people (in past tense obviously) when I said that I had I didn’t mean I was there I saw the fallout and the effects of it.
Yeah, so I read. I also saw how you placed the level of violence and evil committed by Saddam’s regime on the exact same level as the sectarian violence. Your “but” statement is the problem. Therefore I stand by my previous statement that you are either a liar (you did not see the evil) or are a morally bankrupt person.
I also stand by my statement that your stories are stolen compilations from other service members (e.g. “my bf has done multiple tours and was wounded in the second siege of Fallujah”). You could have had those experiences except you were too busy sitting inside the wire pursuing a love interest. You lost your focus and are now wildly flailing at other veterans who stood firm and completed their mission.
Now with your latest blather you deftly avoid the insincere apologizing and trot out your boyfriend’s wound “in the second siege of Fallujah” as your new shield from criticism. The fact that you would trade blood spilled in combat to earn credibility points in an argument infuriates me. It’s not your honor and it’s not your experience, yet you throw it around so callously. In my mind it treads upon the precipice of “stolen valor”. It’s not yours, so don’t use it.
Finally you said “I just don’t think in the end it was worth all the blood and treasure.” And this is what it all boils down to…. You expected treasure from your service. It matters little whether you deployed with this mindset or it set in after your return. What does matter is that you are frustrated with your unmet expectations. You were hostile before you found this blog and you are now using it as a place to explode because you need others to feel your pain.
@AndyFMF you need a reading comprehension class sir, How would I expect treasure from service? I was talking about the money our government spent on the war. And I brought up my bfs experience overseas because it was insulted by another poster on this blog. I did what I was told in Iraq there was never a time I was told to go out in sector and I refused, they told me to help process and search female detainees I did, when they told me to go out in sector I did.
You can tell I am a morally bankrupt person by reading comments on a blog? Well you should call the FBI there are plenty of serial killers that need to be profiled maybe you could go help them out. :p
“All the Iraq vets I know think the same thing.” Well, all the Iraq vets I know think the opposite of what you think. How’s that for painting with the wide brush? You usually have problems when you use “all”, “always” and words like that.
“I had my guard up at first becuase my bf says this site is a bunch has beens and never will bes.” You could have just said you had your guard up for various reasons, but you had to throw in a cheap shot, right? Did your bf say it, or is it your thought processes that say it? Or, are you just a poser, taking time from your women’s studies classes, to go to a web site frequented by vets and AD troops, and throw a few grenades around?
Obama2012….you called us all “neo-cons” and said this site was “has beens and never been”. Your words sweetie not mine. I also never insulted you or your “bf”‘s tour, I just said I don’t basically give a crap what you and he did in yours….I did more in one night. You are the one that insults your own tour as worthless. Mine wasn’t. I notice that you couldn’t answer any of the basic historic questions I asked you, which again speaks to your own lacking in education. I looked at what you said…and have no problem with my “leap”.
I can see by your latest comments that basically…you are a twit not worth my time. If you think I “insulted” you or your “bfs”, whatever the fuck that is, service you are vastly mistaken. I don’t waste my time debating with drunks or twits and you are the latter. Don’t come on here hiding behind your boyfriends Purple Heart. I respect his and your service until “he” makes the comment we are “has beens” and never beens” and you try to back that up. Some day you will grow up and wish you were never as stupid as you are now.
I wish you and your “BF” even easier tours in the future. You couldn’t have survived mine. Believe me on that one babysan.
Honor and Courage
Obama2012 “you need a reading comprehension class sir, How would I expect treasure from service? I was talking about the money our government spent on the war.”
I can only read what you type. Remember post #8?
“where is all that oil we were supposed to be paid by the Iraqi’s” Then you wrote, “just want to clarify my stance on Iraq I don’t think that we were raping and pillaging over there like my college professors used to say. I just don’t think in the end it was worth all the blood and treasure.”
I suppose I am expected now to allow you to hide behind generalities and undefined terms. According to you “treasure” now means the expenses of fighting a war and did not refer to oil nor to the spoils of “pillaging”.
“You can tell I am a morally bankrupt person by reading comments on a blog?”
I gave you a choice. There was also the possibility that you lied.
“And I brought up my bfs experience overseas because it was insulted by another poster on this blog”
Your bf’s experience wasn’t insulted. It was appropriately catagorized and filed. It was put into its respective place, unless of course you would like to claim that the totality of your bf’s combat experience was the zenith of combat experiences. It’s okay for other people to have experiences that are more intense or broader in scope than yours. It doesn’t diminish your experience.
None of this changes the fact that you started this discussion with accusations and hostility. Although, this discussion has kept me pleasantly amused.
Just one more thing Obamagirl…you probably need to watch who you’re hanging out with as far a Iraqi Vets go. I joined the VVAW when I got out because my thoughts were, if we are not going to win this thing, then I want my bros home. What a mistake. I quickly found the VVAW, like the IVAW, to be mostly wannabee’s and REMF’S that used to steal our cigarettes, poncho liners, and anything else they could get their grubbly little hands on. Same guys that fell asleep on guard at the 6th CC where I and many were recuperating from wounds when the NVA came in throwing satchel charges killing 3 and rewounding 98, no matter what the “official” record said. I was there. Same guys that stole my SKS after I was wounded…and I have many true Paratrooper brothers that will tell you about what got stolen while they were in the field. These guys turned out to be the same guys that hang at the Wall wearing fatigues crying about a war they never really fought in. Losers young lady, like John Kerry. My brothers have fought hard to make sure that you, your BF, and all the brothers and sisters of your generation are treated with respect and get much greater benefits then we ever enjoyed. You talk about “professors” and going to college….try it on $175 a month. Period. Don’t give me inflation bs…my trailer was 100 a month, lot rent 50. Left me with 25 for tuition, books, food, electricity…you can thank us…the Vietnam Vets who now are the majority of all the Service Organizations that fight and lobby Congress to make sure you get so much more than we did. Then you come here and try and say that your service in Iraq wasn’t worth it and “all the Iraqi vets I hang out with don’t think it was worth it”. What wasn’t worth it? You’re saying that the 4000 died for nothing? How can you say that before the results are in? I know why….it’s because of who you’re hanging out with.… Read more »
This child is more fun than Joe. She comes in here, throws shit on the wall, then wants to threaten with telling her bf, (whatever that is), that she is not being talked to nicely?
I didn’t spend one day in combat, (was out before the shit hit the fan), but would not have shied from the call. I was probably out of the service before her father was born, and she wants to call us names?
She’s a world class loser, doing a job that she sees as insignificant, and not proud of her country at the same time. What a twit. I did type an “i”, not an “a”, to keep from having TAH put on the porno list again.
Southern Class – you been watching Maher again? Obama2012 – please, don’t indicate that you’re just some internet stenographer for your boyfriend. I’d like the mutual respect that I’m addressing a human being, not a human shield. Thank you. You’ve made some very good points that I’ve heard before. ‘Where is the oil/$$ reimbursement for the US’s costs (invasion, occupation, rebuilding)?’ First, we as Americans took a high moral stance that we would not seek to loot Iraq. Many of your peers in college, and the academics who instruct you made a point that you and I are just lawless mercenaries of Halliburton, et cetera. So, we didn’t seek reimbursement. When the time came for the Iraqis to re-start their petroleum industry, America took itself out of the bidding for contracts. Russia and China took the bulk of those. Were you aware of that? Second, the money spent on OIF and OEF come from TLAR accounting. Old F-4 pilots used the TLAR aiming system. TLAR: “That Looks About Right.” The accounting and what we’ve been told is really, really screwed up. When a hummer got blown up, its replacement came from depot. No money was spent buying a new one. The ammo you loaded in your magazines date were up to 30 years old. The Army spent decades using up stockage originally bought for Viet Nam. The aircraft overhead? Only the UAS are new. The helicopters and fast movers are over 20 years old, if not older. If they were shot down? Replaced from depot. These things are an example of sunk costs. The money for this items were appropriated years if not decades prior; and obligated (spent) according to law. There was money spent – BIG MONEY. But where did it go? If one counts each piece of equipment that made its way into theater, and into OIF; and one counts the cost of each servicemember and contractor (pay plus bennies plus medical plus living needs [food]) you arrive at a number that is a dilemna: some of the money is sunk cost – already spent and now being… Read more »
@Dave O my bf has a different opinion on Iraq than I do he says we are fighting to leave not fighting to win.
I envy you AirCav69 youre an idealist I am a realist.
not one of my college professors said Iraq or Vietnam was worth it. These are intellectuals at the tops of there perspective fields and youre telling me just brush off everything they say.
Obama2012,
Does your bf lack fingers with which to type? When I was Jalalabad, we saw the arrival of a new rifle company of Marines, and six new MWR computers. 24 hours later we still had the Marines, but no working keyboards. Being rather pissed off, I took two of the broken keyboards and went hunting for the company commander.
Didn’t find him, but did find his XO. I threw one keyboard on his desk, pissing him off. He gets all irate, wanting to know what my problem is. I took the keyboard, and slapping my forehead to emphasize each word told him “Your (slap) Marines (slap) shouldn’t (slap) type (slap) like this!”
With that experience, if your bf can only use his forehead to type what he believes ‘winning’ is (and please don’t let it be a rant about Tiger’s Blood and Adonis DNA), I can understand it.