Col. David Hodne bans badges and combat patches
I thought this was a Duffel Blog thing, but apparently not, it’s in the Colorado Springs Gazette. This Commander of the 1st Stryker Brigade Combat TEAM (caps are mine), 4th Infantry Division, Colonel David Hodne wants new soldiers to feel included when they arrive at the unit, so he is stripping away his soldiers’ badges and combat patches on their uniform while on duty, so that everyone will only have name tags, rank, 4th ID patch and an American flag on their uniform.
First, I’ll start out with this; That’s all I ever wore on my uniform, but that was my choice. I always said that “what you did isn’t as important as what you do”. Until my company commander told me to sew my CIB and my combat patch on – and I always do what I’m told. But, like I said, it was my choice. This colonel fellow is way off base if this is the reason he wants this to happen;
The colonel said he made the switch for a couple of reasons. One was to welcome new blood.
Hodne’s unit, which has seen a radical reorganization over the past year from tanks and Bradley Fighting Vehicles to eight-wheeled Strykers, is loaded with brand-new privates whose uniforms are bare of insignia. Instead of standing out, the new guys look like everyone else in training.
“It’s about the collective, it’s not about the individual,” Hodne explained.
Yeah, that’s horseshit. That’s kindergarten-grade horseshit. I know the colonel thinks that he’s helping, but, really, he’s not. Yeah, the younger guys will feel included but you’re completely disregarding the guys who’ve been doing the heavy lifting for the past 15 years. They earned that stuff, they earned the right to wear it or not wear it. From the Army Times;
“Combat patches aren’t worn to say ‘look I’ve deployed’ or ‘I love this unit’,” wrote Tom Simpkins on the Army Times Facebook page in an answer to a request for comment. “I wear mine as a scar, I wear it for every single person who deployed with me and every minute of rough times we went through.”
“It seems ridiculous, especially in an infantry or other combat MOSs,” Joseph Crescitelli wrote on Facebook. “It lets newer guys (such as myself) know who to look to for guidance for first person experience as well as demands that extra bit of respect.”
It seems to me that colonel would feel perfectly at home handing out smiley-face stickers to his class of first-graders for their self-esteem. The younger guys need something to shoot for, they need role models more than they need to feel included.
Category: Army News
Next we are gonna strip our Dress Blues down to just the Fire Guard ribbon to show solidarity.
No sapper, it will be the much coveted NDSM with “S” device (stands for sucks).
I’ve actually thought for a while about just wearing the Army Service Ribbon on my dress.
A bunch of reasons for it, but not because I want anyone else to “fit in”. Mostly when I look at it I think “Damn, I hope I don’t get another award, it’ll be so expensive to get a new rack.”
When I showed up at the 82nd as a fuzzy faced 2LT, I was a nasty LEG (for 4 months) and didn’t even have a NDSM. It impressed the hell out of me to see troopers wearing master blaster wings and even a few had gold stars on those wings. This was visual proof that these guys had been there and done that and I could learn a hell of a lot from them. It was an inspiration, not an intimidation.
sj, Sir, since I just learned you were an Officer, you took my words and did so very well. Those awards, combat patches and so forth were an inspiration to me. They showed what that individual had sacrificed to accomplish and gave me the motivation to sacrifice as well. They showed me who knew what and who to listen to. The badges offered a sense of both belonging and pride. I think the Colonel should head to a boot camp and do his good deeds there with the FNGs.
You’re killing me Sparks! 🙂 We have the same rank: RETIRED.
Concur.
I know there was at least one Chaplain over in A’stan rocking the CIB (green to gold program I think). I suspect it made a huge difference in his effectiveness.
Was it this guy?
Has to be. I remember the “bring me those foreskins” line… seared into my brain. Christmas eve and all that.
Well, ya coulda posted a spew alert, pilgrim!
I could have, but where’s the fun in that?
😀
When I was in Bosnia, our TF Chaplain had a budweiser. He was a SEAL in Viet Nam, got out, found God and became a preacher. Then joined the Army to serve again.
I did PT with him one time and that was enough to be in pain for a week. But it was awesome and he was a great motivator to have around on deployment.
While we were there someone was dumb enough to say to him “you can’t wear that budweiser chaplain, its a Navy award.” incorrect in so many ways, but he said “I’m not takin’ it off” and nothing else was said about it.
Good times…
Had a Chaplain at Huachuca that was a former 11-B SFC, complete with Drill Sergeant patch and Master Blaster wings. Very popular with the troops and turned some young lives around. He always said he knew when to hug ’em and when to kick their asses.
When I got to my Airborn Unit my Top had a 173rd combat patch from Vietnam. Everyone knew who to take guidance from. This shitbird is what happens when PC runs amok.
The little snowflakes in his command must get warm fuzzies when he starts a group hug. I predict he will be a General in short order.
When I got to my Airborne Unit my Top had a 173rd combat patch from Vietnam and Master Blaster Wings. Everyone knew who to take guidance from. This shitbird is what happens when PC runs amok.
The little snowflakes in his command must get warm fuzzies when he starts a group hug. I predict he will be a General in short order.
FFS, give the new fuzz nuts an AAM for signing in.
Yeah, when I was taking my cats to cat shows, I got ribbons just for showing up. They were called ‘participation ribbons’. I have dozens of them. I was MUCH more interested in the ‘Best Household Pet’ ribbon.
Someone needs to tell Kernel Hoedown that warfare is not kindergarten. It’s competition to stay alive, and if you don’t foster that mindset, you will lose a large number of people to enemy fire.
Following his logic the COL needs to take off his Eagles to be more inclusive. And, the reserved parking place in front of HQ?
Oh, and do like AF officers and wear a name tag that says “Dave Hodne”
Following that logic, so long to the VIP lounges in all the PAX terminals!
And parking spots at the commissary and PX. Let him explain that to his wife.
I would have been in real trouble with this clown. When I was in 2nd Armored Division (we wore our unit patch directly over the US Army plate) but my Bn Cdr wanted officers to wear all earned patches. I crammed a CIB and 3 skill badges on a pocket flap!
Had to get all new uniforms when I left.
I’m so glad I have my DD-214 blanket that keeps me safe from all this bullshit.
Me to ! ! ! !
Hallelujah and amen!
COL Hodne – another poster child for political correctness run amok.
Nah, I’m going to call him ‘Hoedown’ and ‘Snookums’ until he grows up.
Doesn’t this make you wonder if he wants the lower echelons to call him ‘Dave’?
Every time I think I have seen it all. What is next taking battle streamers off because one BN, BDE, or DIV has more than someone else and it might make the unit feel bad. I do not get the logic here at all. I remember when I came in I looked up to the folks that had that stuff and asked a lot of questions about schools and skills etc. I never once felt out of place or not welcomed. It is just part of the cycle and as new blood comes in and the combat missions draw down we will go through it again. Part of the issues we have now with troops feeling entitled etc is the everyone gets a trophy crap and going to the lowest denominator verse the work your ass off and hey sometimes you will fall on it and sometimes you will not win but you keep trying. How about trusting your NCO’s to make the troops welcome and part of the unit and training them. I lucked out and had good leaders who sat me down and explained things. That was followed by sending me to the soldier of the month boards etc so when I hit the E-5 board it was no sweat. I also recall going to air assault school twice because on zero day I kept getting dropped for 10 to the wind for being my mouth so when I hit the rope climb I was burned. Lesson learned shut up and color and go back and pass the next time. Part of the motivation was my own wanting it and part the company was trying for the 100% mark, unit pride.
If the Army says you can wear it, how can this asshole say put the patches away? I know in the Navy The Regulations from up on high could be added to, but never taken away from, at a lower level command.
I always felt that if you were adding to a reg, you were in fact taking away from it. There is a reg, period. No more, no less.
“WHERE IS THE FUCKING CSM?!!!!!”
THIS IS STRAIT BULLSHIT AND THE COL NEEDS TO GET BACK IN HIS LANE!
I was envisioning that too. Picture the staff meeting when Dave here revealed the latest inspiration from the Good Idea Fairy. S1, S2,…all bobble heading. CSM must have been out checking police of the motor pool.
Obviously, I’m not an Army type but I understand the sentiments here.
I’d think the young troops or new members of the unit would be inspired by those who wear the awards/devices they earned, and aspire to achieve what those who influence them have.
Like Silentium Est Aureum wrote: “I’m so glad I have my DD-214 blanket that keeps me safe from all this bullshit”.
I agree, and while I may not really agree with how much stuff the Army wears on their uniforms, I also understand that it is an integral part of the culture. Col Hodne is way off base here.
Please tell me that’s his current command photo.
I got it from his Linked In profile.
I’m sure it is. And I’m sure its up on the wall in every battalion and company in his BCT.
So, he’s in violation of his own Order from my understanding. He needs to counsel himself and do some extra duty to repair his disrespect to himself.
From looking at his bio it seems his combat (and jump status) time all come since he made field grade. Those of us that saw combat as LTs would never make such a short sighted decision.
I don’t know. He’s had a impressive bunch of leadership assignments and doesn’t appear to be a staff guy. Command of a BDE is a damned competitive selection. He’s definitely high speed. Like Ole Jumper said: where was the CSM.
Word.
I would like him to try and physically take a CIB from an Infantryman’s chest.
Shitbag.
And the irony is that he has one himself.
“Folks, do not wear your Ranger Tabs, CIBS or anything that would show you have experience!”
“Just let the younger guys figure out who the fuck knows what is going on themselves!”
I wonder if he has any crazy rules for the FRG?
Oh come on Green Thumb, you know better than that.
No one tells the FRG what to do….
Gee. I felt so sad because back in ’76 because all my NCO’s had combat stuff and I didn’t. It was so demotivating and the 1SG had to give me a hug every morning so I wouldn’t cry. Yeah – right. Aren’t we SUPPOSED to look up to those who have experience? I spent over 14 years in before being eligible for any of that. I sincerely hope these new kids don’t rate any of them anytime soon.
That being said, COL Hodne doesn’t even know how to wear his uniform correctly. If he followed AR 670-1 and DA PAM 670-1 which was released in Sept 2014, he would know that his qualification badges should be in rows of two and not stacked. Ref Fig. 22-64 DA PAm 670-1. Maybe it’s an old photo, but if you are going to invoke regulations then you better damn well be current with the changes. After all – everyone looks up to you. Wait, why are you wearing all that stuff anyway? PVT Snuffy will have low self-esteem and all your mssions will fail.
I only see three combat and special skill badges. The proper wear of three badges on the ACUs is stacking them vertically. Four badges is where they are stacked 2 x 2.
He’s right you know.
Roger. Thought I was looking at four. Got to stop this self abuse. my eyesight is going!
This is a great idea that should be implemented across the nation, especially in sports! Effective immediately, no one gets a trophy. No team may select an MVP. No more varsity letters and those who have varsity jackets already are prohibited from wearing them. Olympic medals? Hell no, not for the USA team members, anyway. And while we’re at it, the pro sports Halls of Fame need to go, starting with baseball. Every one of those guys in Cooperstown were members of a team: no one played alone. So, no special recognition is warranted. Yeah, Kernel Dave has something there.
“It’s about the collective, it’s not about the individual,” Hodne explained.
Ah, the collective. It’s not a team, after all. It’s a collective. Got it. Funny, I seem to recall that term being popularized by a bunch of communis–no, couldn’t be. I must be wrong.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
That’s what hit me upside the head when I read it, “it’s about the COLLECTIVE,”.
Damned fucking communist mentality.
He better strip off all his awards, STAT!!
I cringed at that term also, but I don’t think this man is a communist. I think what we’re seeing here is a good commander made a bad call. He’s human — it happens. But somebody definitely needs to yank him up on it, pronto.
He’s an “orificer”. He’s supposed to have the training, knowledge, experience and awareness to NOT make mis-statements like that.
(slow facepalm)
Resistance is Futile. You will be assimilated into the collective. Your technology will be used to make us stronger.
Reading the article, it appears that this is only in effect during his Brigade’s current PCMS rotation, and all returns to “normal” afterwards, but I guarantee after this little bit of negative press, the Division Commander will probably say “don’t do it again.”
“It seems ridiculous, especially in an infantry or other combat MOSs,” Joseph Crescitelli wrote on Facebook. “It lets newer guys (such as myself) know who to look to for guidance for first person experience as well as demands that extra bit of respect.”
Interestingly enough some of the newer guys don’t agree with the colonel. At least the FNGs have the good sense to understand why the colonel is missing the mark with this policy.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions colonel. Learn that lesson or ignore it at your own peril.
Looks to me like another case of a something from the “Good Idea Fairy” being implemented NQA and without feedback from subordinates.
I do wish someone would catch that little winged troublemaker – then cage him/her, lock the cage, and send that cage to Adak. For a century or so.
I have a bug zapper at the entrance to my cubicle. Helps keep the Good Idea Fairy away.
That is outfuckingstanding!!!
Yeah that is bull. Plus I whenever I saw patches galore I would soak up whatever guidance that NCO had to offer.
These are also ” I know What the Fuck I am Talking about Badges”
Been there, Done that, now sit down and listen.
Exactly. I don’t know about others, but a combat parch on the shoulder of ALL of the drill sergeants was instant credibility and quite reassuring.
Oh come on, you don’t need a combat patch to Drill. Just ask SGM “no slack” King about that…
Rank and billet should already dictate that. You know basic military rules….
Should the marine corps authorize shooting badges on uniforms now too so people know who to listen too? LOL.
Let’s not get too carried away. A. This is only in the field not in garrison. B the Marines have been doing this since hmm forever and I don’t hear anyone accusing the marines of being PC. C if anyone is entitled to feel this way it’s the BCT commander he has tons of badges, patches etc. D. If you judge your value as a soldier in the field by having a badge well that’s a problem right there. In my view this isn’t about making people with out badges feel good but instead about making those with them still excel. I will never forget asking an E7 at bloc why almost none of the NCOs had badges and combat patches on and his reply was so that the LTs judged him by his skill and leadership not by a badge.
You have a point. However, it’s the usual lack of a consistant standard which inevitably leads to confusion. Plus, it goes back to the velcro, sew-it-on, pin-it-on, can’t do both, WTF this week? kind of stuff. The Marines don’t keep changing their regs every week or cave to popular opinion because of hair styles, etc. Or am I wrong about that?
The Marines have a different culture and don’t combat badges or a lot of badges. The Army is not the Marines and comparing the two is comparing apples and oranges. Of course, the Army brass has been trying to be more like the Marines for years, hence the blue Class A.
I’ll differ with you on that one. We (Army) always had formal dress blues in addition to the green Class A’s and B’s. Changing that to the current candy-ass looking ASU with the practical and rugged looking white shirt was the next dumbest thing to the Navy’s aquaflage. We should never had goten rid of the khaki class B’s and khaki shirts with the Class A’s. But, what the heck do I know? At least Marines look military and not a cross between the Salvation Army and some 3rd-world dictator.
OldSarge, I agree with you one hundred and ten percent. It just seems to me that the Army joined the bandwagon to have a blue Class A instead of leaving it as formal dress uniform. What the Army misses on the uniforms is that in order to have a traditional uniform that Soldiers and the public identify with you can’t change it every 20 to 30 years.
the Army thinks the difference between “service” and “dress” uniforms is a standard necktie and a bow tie.
And I admit that I hate wearing ASU Class B’s 4 days a week. Should’ve stuck with the greens for a service uniform and kept the blues for a dress uniform.
But then again, I think all flair should be removed from utility uniforms (but that’s just my inner jarhead coming back out)
Also i have heard rumors that he got this idea from his time in batt. Kind of changes the narrative
I thought he got it from Moerk, but I guess her role is limited to just reporting who is not accepting Davey’s message warmly.
Yeah, after reading the article more betterer (it’s a doctrinal term, look it up), he’s doing what a lot of leaders who spent time in the 75th do. Wear all your various accoutrements while in garrison, but in the field, it’s all about the current unit. My last unit’s command teams from BDE on down to Company were almost exclusively from Regiment, and the standard there was “nothing but a unit patch, rank and U.S. Flag in a field/deployed environment.” That included both long and short tabs.
Whether for better or worse, (and reasonable people can disagree which)I think they do it to make some small organizational changes that are intended to raise the level of professionalism a tiny bit closer to what they experienced in Regiment.
I may have spoken out of turn.
Field uniforms should be sterile IMO. As for Batt, everyone has just about everything that counts so that is no surprise.
Garrison, its up to the individual.
But I guess things have changed, when I was in NOBODY wore badges to the field except when I first came in and they were sewed on.
1st Sgt Moerk strikes again. I’m telling you it’s her.
She’s still a 1SG in the same company. I looked her up on AKO a couple weeks ago.
Wow, is it ARCOM season again?
It’s only i
When I was going through jump school at Fort Campbell in ’59 and being screwed with unmercifully by the jump qualified guys in the barracks to the tune of about four hours sleep a night, nothing inspired me more than seeing those Eagle patches looking the wrong way on the WWII NCO’s in the unit and among the jump school cadre.
This kind of thinking is the culmination of years of creeping political correctness in the one American institution where it can only do harm. I hope this results in a letter in this asshole’s jacket that serves as a warning to others who share his feel-good theories.
And as others have said, “Where the hell is the Brigade Sergeant Major???
According to the article in the Army Times this policy is only for when the unit is in the field. The Brigade spokesman is quoted as saying Soldiers can wear all of their stuff on their uniforms in garrison. They had finally allowed Soldiers to sew their badges on their uniforms so now I guess they have to go back to pin on. BS!
Yeah, these things always start somewhere. Decades from now, when the US Army is called the Protective Collective, some history professor at the US Arbitration and Conflict Resolution College (formerly War College) will trace the beginnings of those and other changes to Colonel Dave.
It’d be one thing if “the they” didn’t start telling their troops to sew on badges to make it easier.
In the field you don’t wear pin on which is fine, but now you’re telling guys to rip sew ons off for the field.
Because ACUs only last about 20 minutes, its not like you can keep field and garrison versions for 10 years….
How does this Bozo get to be a BDE CDR.
I read the Army Times article on the drive in this morning. Army Times and some ass hat at Army Staff Manpower and Reserve Affairs says its within the Commanders Authority per AR 670-1.
Pulled the reg at work. I’m not a lawyer, but it appears to me the commander has the authority to order a soldier to wear the Full Monty for specific occasion, but doesn’t give him the authority to restrict wear.
Your thoughts?
22–2. Authorization
a. Commanders may require the wear of authorized awards on the following occasions:
(1) Parades, reviews, inspections, and funerals.
(2) Ceremonial and social occasions.
b. Unless directed by a commander per paragraph 22–2(a), authorized awards are worn at the option of the wearer,
when not prohibited, during normal duty hours. Personnel also may wear authorized awards on appropriate uniforms
when off duty. Personnel are encouraged to wear authorized awards on the service, dress, and mess uniforms.
c. Soldiers may wear authorized awards on the Class B version of the service uniform during duty hours and when
off duty, at their option.
22–3. When wearing awards is prohibited
Wearing awards is prohibited in the following circumstances:
a. On any uniform other than those authorized in this regulation. (See 18 USC 704 for the penalty for unauthorized
wear of the uniform.)
b. When serving a sentence of confinement.
c. When wearing civilian clothing, except for civilian awards, lapel buttons, or rosettes intended for wear with
civilian clothing. Soldiers may wear miniature medals on formal civilian attire at formal social functions, when wearing
the Army uniform is inappropriate or not authorized.
Some would counter with this: this is about combat and special skill badges and shoulder sleeve insignia and not awards.
In the interest of brevity I left out the paragraph headers and paragraph 1 of the chapter. Guess I should know better.
The SSI-FWTS is an “Insignia” which falls under Chapter 21, which does not include an authorization for commanders to modify the reg in any way.
Chapter 22
Wear of Decorations, Service Medals, Badges, Unit Awards, and Appurtenances
22–1. General
This chapter covers decorations, service medals, badges, unit awards and appurtenances, both U.S. and foreign,
authorized for wear on Army uniforms. The term “award” is an all-inclusive term, covering any decoration, service
medal, badge, ribbon, or appurtenance bestowed on an individual or unit. The term “ribbon” is an all-inclusive term
covering that portion of the suspension ribbon of a service medal or decoration that is worn instead of the service
medal or decoration.
Good catch. I was too lazy to pull it up on APD via my phone.
L4C: Can’t say for sure. But page 1 of AR 670-1 does seem to list DCS/G1 as proponent, and require DCS/G1’s prior approval on any execution of exceptions/local supplements.
It seems to me that forbidding wear of something expressly permitted by an AR would qualify as an “exception” or “local supplement” to said AR. But that’s just me.
— break —
D: I believe that 670-1 also specifies proper wear of badges and FWS-SSI on the uniform. I’m not positive, but I think it’s silent on whether a local command can forbid same. However, doing so as blanket policy would to me seem to be a local exception/supplement to the reg.
I concur Hondo. In the Army, commanders and 1SGs/CSMs have a wide breadth for such things.
I had a BC at Bragg who even wore his maroon beret in the field. The next commander let us wear PCs in BDUs because he liked wearing it too.
Tomato, tomato.
Eric, the old adage that a local command can add to but not take away from a regulation does come with a big caveat. That being, you can’t violate the intent of the regulation.
“Add but not take away” is generally true, L4C. However, in this case p. 1 of the AR appears to specifically prohibit local supplementation without prior DCS/G1 approval.
I’m at least passingly familiar with the concept of “commander’s latitude” as applied in the Army, Eric.
Different situations. In the case of headgear, both items you cited were authorized for the unit in question; the commander was merely specifying which of two authorized options would be used. Here, the commander is specifying a mandatory deviation to something that is specifically permitted by the governing AR.
The former falls within a commander’s latitude. The latter is somewhat questionable, given that the AR in question here specifically requires prior approval of DCS/G1 for any local exceptions or supplements.
Like I said Hondo, where were you when I needed a “good” barracks lawyer all those years ago? Sheesh…
My concern when I first read about this was, “Who assumes the cost for modification to soldiers uniforms”?
As it was an order to take stuff off, does the Army assume the cost of removing and then sowing back on? As a taxpayer, I’m pissed if that the case. If it’s the individuals soldier, that wrong also. As they likely had to pay to get their uniform correct by 670-1, and your now making them do is a second time (to say nothing of the soldiers who just had to buy a complete new ACU sterile uniform; just before the new issue uniform is available for wear next month). As this is a Brigade, those cost are not insubstantial and will easily run into the 5 figures.
The Army Times article mentions the BDE S-3 saying that the Rangers didn’t were insignia while down range, but the point that is lost is that those uniforms are organizational issue, issued to the soldier, and are legally US property, while day to day uniforms used in CONUS are individual procurement (beyond initial issue of course) and individual property.
look at AR 670-1 2-6d
That refers the which specific uniform is worn in the field, within further defined commanders authorities. They are also further restricted in their authorities further down the page in Para 2-6:
f. Commanders will not require individuals to purchase optional uniform items. Likewise, they will not restrict or
discourage them from wearing optional uniform items authorized by this regulation, except in those instances where
uniformity is required, such as parades or formations.
According to a different article, it only applies when they’re in the field. If that’s the case, meh, but if it applies in Garrison, FUCK THAT!!! If it applies in garrison as well, then maybe he’s trying to put a PC feather in his cap hoping it will help get him promoted to BG?
Just remember, big Army now says you need to sew on all your patches. That means the troops have to spend their own money to purchase a few new sets of ACUs since if you try to rip off a patch, the ACU tears.
Another one of Dempsey, 0bama’s chosen ones. Wouldn’t want him leading drunks to a bar.
I doubt he could lead drunken horny Sailors to a brothel!
“drunken horny Sailors” Sailors alone would have been sufficient! (Gotta go now.)
We don’t need to be led to a brothel…it’s an acquired skill brought on by weeks and months spent at sea.
“It’s about the collective, it’s not about the individual”.
Collective. Never thought I’d hear a US commissioned officer use that word in the context of his/her unit.
It’s the new world. Russian propaganda is common in this new world.
It’s the military. Collective and uniform isn’t some abstract concept.
Did they have to take Tabs off too?
“gee sarge, how the eff can you tell me how to link up a patrol? not like you ever went to Ranger school or anything”
Leaders lead, but the hallmarks of HOW they got to be leaders is important.
I don’t need no stinkin’ War College to be a Colonel! I’m good enough, I’m smart enough, and doggone it, people LIKE me!
I’m going to say this the only way I was trained…
“I think this is total BULLSHIT, Sir.”
“You can go flying Fuck Yourself, Sir.”
“I’m glad I was in the Air Force at Peterson AFB in Colorado Springs and not your clown car outfit at Ft Carson, and I’m now RETIRED and wouldn’t have to put up your your candy assed-horseshit, SIR.”
/Sir.
ChipNASA. but he is a millennial parent he doesn’t want the little baby’s coming in to feel left out
BHWHAHAHAHAHA! ! ! !
Short and sweet. Right before I left for Boot Camp a buddy at West Point told me, “all your DI’s will be good, but look for the guys with a right sleeve patch and a CIB. They have been there, done that.”
Not any more, apparently. Now, the little babies coming out of Boot Camp might cry and feel inadequate because some people have seen combat and they haven’t.
Patch doesn’t make you competent or a good leader. Your dismal of people without it is pretty striking when you agree to follow orders and there is a chain of command that isn’t dictated by a patch.
I keep reading serious discipline issues of US Army members and I’m kind of shocked the same argument keeps being brought up. The illogical argument that if you have a combat patch you know your shit, never have to listen to those that don’t, and are invaluable leader that is always right.
God damn this should be embarrassing instead of brought up as some sort of crucible that equate to good order and discipline.
Isn’t anybody going to take note of the fact that this is only being done while in the field?
Sanitized uniforms for the field. BOLO badges, lickies, and chewies in garrison.
Carry on…
Yeah, but. I’m a dinosaur so maybe things are done different today. In the ole’ white name tape, Black & Gold US Army days, the fatigues we wore in garrison were the same ones we wore in the field…only thing that changed was baseball cap/steel pot and LBE. If we had this policy then we’d have to have 2 “sets” of fatigues.
But what do I know? Over. (H/T MCPO)
Amen, brother! We used to show up for formation, strip off our “blouses”, do a right face, and start the Battalion morning run – boots and all. In my early years I had one duffle bag for everything. My last deployment in 2009 I had four duffle bags of gear and I could barely lift three of them.
Its been said multiple times already.
I think the issue is that when we had field and garrison uniforms 10+ years ago when we got to wear a real camouflaged uniform (BDUs), you didn’t have the issues you have now.
A set of BDUs could last a decade. ACUs last about a month before you have to replace them. Especially out in the field.
Further, the “Army” was told to start sewing on badges, so now you have troops having to rip up their already delicate ACUs to remove badges sewn on. (Mind you, you could tear off and sew back on new patches to a BDU blouse multiple times without worry.)
Pin on out in the field is a NOGO, but this isn’t about the pin-on…
This sounds a lot like Veteran Outrage Syndrome. This has been widely reported on many military pages. Lots of keyboard warriors claiming they would spit in the colonel’s face. Ridiculous. He is well within regulations to do it.
1. He is taking the practice from his time with the Regiment.
2. It only effects the soldiers when they are in the field.
3. Everyone gets to wear all their flare when the are in garrison.
4. No one is getting anything taken away.
5. It may be a stupid idea but the level of outrage I’ve seen is way out of proportion.
your post is outrageous!
So, you believe it’s right to make solders in the field equal? Will you also forbid combat veterans from voicing their opinions? Will you allow non-combat veterans lead training exercises for things the book says is the right way that have either failed and/or gotten people killed?
Will you ignore the insight and experience of those who have actually had to kick doors in, just because the commander want to make sure his little babies that just came from Basic Training get their bottle and nap and don’t have a reason to cry like a bitch because others have actually seen combat?
That is quite A leap in logic. Taking off your badges and combat patch negates nothing. No one is suggesting you keep your experiences to yourself. Your soldiers will not forget what your uniform looked like yesterday when you were in garrison.
Two words invalidate your argument: Marine Corps. They don’t feel the need to wear their ERB on field uniforms.
My issue, Loach, is that the man may well have exceeded his authority.
Last time I checked, DA – not local commands – decide on and make the uniform rules for the Army. If DA says something is authorized on a uniform, I can’t see how any Company Commander – or Division Commander, for that matter – can say, “That’s not the way you’ll wear your uniform here.” And as I’ve noted above, the AR in question (670-1) specifically prohibits local exceptions or supplements without prior DA approval (DCS/G1, to be precise).
Commanders have much latitude, but they’re expected to follow standing regulations just like anyone else. That’s true whether they’re O2 detachment commanders or O9/O10 Theater Army commanders.
Sometimes they forget that fact, and need to be reminded of same.
I am not a lawyer, not even a shithouse one. But it seems like AR 670-1 2-6d gives him the authority to tell his troops what to wear in the field. If he told them they couldn’t wear what they earned in garrison I think he would be overstepping his authority.
I’m not a lawyer either, Loach. That’s why I said in a comment above that it was questionable whether he had the authority – not that he didn’t have it.
My take would be no, since the badges/tabs/FWS-SSI are specifically authorized by an AR which further prohibits local supplementation or exceptions without DA approval. But I could easily be wrong.
Since this doubtless required a fair number of troops to remove sewn-on patches – and will almost certainly require them to be re-sewn-on as well afterwards – I would be interested in knowing who pays for that. If it’s the Army, as a taxpayer I have a problem with that. And if it’s not, I’m thinking his troops may have a valid beef about that.
I agree Loach. I came out of the Marine Corps so the flair thing has always escaped me but I dont see where this is much of a change.
And for those who think a SSIFWTS and a CIB equals competence….seriously? Are we talking US Army? EIB maybe….but anyone who served in OIF or OEF knows the so called combat patch in particular means about as much as an NDSM.
The rhetoric on this is a bit over the top but having said all that, this is the CSMs lane; whats his take on it?
Yeah I’ve been active and guard over my 28 years. Lots of former active duty Marines come into the guard because Marine Reserve units are spread out and they can’t find combat arms units close by. We have a former 0311 CAR owner. Somehow we manage to remember he is an experienced combat vet despite the fact that he can’t wear a CIB.
From the gist I get here he would be told to sit down and shut up regardless of rank or billet because he doesn’t have the merit badge rank. Talk about serious leadership and discipline issues in the U.S. Army….
The illogical and asinine idea that combat patch equate to supreme commander General 10 star infallible leadership is so hilarious my side are now in orbit.
You’re right on point here. This is a tempest in a teapot. I’m usually right in agreement with the regular commenters on this site, but in this case people are making absurd allegations. COL Hodne is an experienced killer, he’s been around the block more than a few times with almost 25 years in Ranger and light infantry positions. He’s a crazy hard worker, and the furthest thing from being a clown or a political correctness poster boy, I would trust him.
Besides, from what my buddy in 3-4 ABCT says, this may be an attempt to rein in a whole bunch of prima donnas in 1-4 SBCT who think that they don’t have to work as a team in the field. Like it or not, it’s a truism that a successful army is about people working together. It’s a huge paradox that the rugged individualist tends to be attracted to the military, yet he will not succeed unless he uses that individualism for the good of the unit. You need a bunch of highly competent individuals, but they need to work together as a team. With the rest of the Mickey-Mouse crap the Army is pulling, and the best NCOs and officers getting forced out, you are getting a bunch of brand-new NCOs freshly kicked out of the E4 mafia who think that a deployment patch exempts them from following directions or helping anyone with anything.
It seems the point behind this is to force people to stand out by their merits, actions, and performance rather than leaning back on their prior achievement. I see it all the time, some reservist shitbag with jump wings and a 173rd patch (thanks to that one Civil Affairs mission he went on with them in 2010) thinks he doesn’t have to do anything because LOOK AT MY SHOULDER, while a slick-sleeved go getter is pulling the load. With everyone essentially slick-sleeved out in the field people should, you know, work hard and try to succeed.
Individual effort wins medals, teamwork wins wars.
That’s “collective” not team. And the Pentagon and Joint Chiefs are full (or were) of people who, with rank and a desire to please, lost or abandoned some fine qualities and characteristics once theirs. Unless he was misquoted and misunderstood (repeatedly), it seems that this collectivist colonel wants to ensure that the guy w/o the combat patch is on par with the guy with one. Well, the two aren’t the same, never will be, and can’t be. All he can do is create the illusion that they are.
Why should they even wear ranks? That could make the new soldiers feel left out since they are so low in rank.
Why let them wear names? I mean, what if a soldier doesn’t have as cool a name as someone else?
I wonder if the Commander is allowed to wear all his badges? What about the Sergeant Major? I wonder if the Chaplain is allowed to wear his cross (or star or moon) insignia since it might be offensive to troops who believe in other things.
Well, no one has ever accused me of knowing anything but it seems to me that his good idea fairy should spend a few weeks in the dry-out clinic.
The CSM is there for a reason, use them
Run this “nice idea” by him/her before giving to the staff for planning and execution.
It’s a great concept but, if awards are a challenge then ditch them.
The Marines only recently got name tapes.
And, unless everyone will be issued new ACU’s the thread outline/faded silhouettes above the name tape are kind of distinctive.
CIB’s aren’t small.
Does this rule apply to the EIB and EFMB?
If you think about it, with all of the deployments, these are probably somewhat rarer than the CIB and CMB.
Furthermore, these badges speak to the skill and competency of Soldiers within their Infantry and Medical professions. Generally speaking, these badges command a lot of respect.
So what you’re saying is US army only listens to and respects troops with badges? That’s the tone you’re portraying. I don’t see how any of those badges would contribute to mission accomplishment or general military order. Actually the opposite.
Sounda like the U.S. army has rank and respect issues and the troops are hiding behind badges to not address it.
I think you are misinterpreting my point. As far as competency within those specific MOSs, these badges are proof. Not courage, per se, but competency. Read up on for what the EIB and EFMB are awarded. They are not awarded in combat. They are awarded for performance based on testing and effort. As far as mission accomplishment or general order, I can somewhat see your point, but what they do show is “right of passage” and technical competency in an MOS, both of which contribute to mission accomplishment and general order, the last more by “leadership by example”. And as far as listening to troops w/ badges, etc.? Yeah, it happens. I would take advice on tactical and technical knowledge in patrolling from a Ranger with a CIB over their peer in another branch. Conversely, if I had to plan a convoy movement annex as part of an OPORD, I would reach out to a Transportation Officer in an FSC. And most of those, in my experience, have several badges as well (Pathfinder, AA, etc.) So what hat tells me is that those folks put forth the effort to attain knowledge that could help and influence their unit, both the mission which, if successful, would contribute to morale which would translate into the other, general order. Back in the old days (I do not know how it is now), we had a Order of Merit List for schools. People competed for slots. That shows perseverance and drive. Now do not get me wrong, politics and shitbags always muddied the waters, but a cherry E-2 walking around with an EIB and some jump wings or an AA badge was setting the example. And I would take as many of those as I could get. Those guys can be trained with minimal effort and usually have self-initiative, both of which complete mission success and general order. These are just a few examples. Another is taking a new guy who is “checking the blocks” and doing the right thing and hanging an AAM on his/her chest for some sort of minor accomplishment. This… Read more »
Well said, GT. And on target.
When the Army first went to the ACU, I stopped wearing my badges since they had to be pinned on, and I didn’t have time for that crap anyway… but once they authorized sewing them on, I put them right back on. Another instance is when I deployed to Afghanistan with 1CD we had to wear the ISAF patch on the pocket flap, so I wore my Ranger tab underneath since the “horsehead” patch is so big. We had way too many seniore officer’s/NCO’s wearing their tabs with their 1CD patch hanging off the velcro damn near down to their elbow. RIDICULOUS. As many others have said, when I first came in as a private in ’94 (IN), if I wanted some guidance/information, I went to the guys with tabs, wings, EIB/CIB, etc. IIRC, when the Army went to the ACU, the pin on badges were supposed to be taken off in the field environment anyway. Of course I could be wrong about that too, never paid too much attention as I didn’t wear them then.
Dang you army guys get mad when your merit badges are threatened.
You have dress uniforms to parade around with to show individual award swag. What exactly is the deal here? You can’t show how amazeballs you are while in combat uniform to boots in your unit?
This is hilarious and petty as shit. Hooah US Army!
I wish the corps got rid of those stupid jump wings, bubbles, red patches ect. They serve zero purpose while in that uniform. Yes red patches too.
Got a couple of issues with this. First, I can see some circumstances where having everyone slick sleeved might be legitimate, but very few, depending upon the duration of the circumstances.
Second, are these easily removed/replaced items? If not, then the effort and expense of removing, adding, removing, adding repeatedly is just silly. If it’s Velcro, then that isn’t an issue.
Third, cannot imagine as a new airman having to guess which NCO’s/senior guys to approach for guidance. Again, if this is a situation where everyone knows everyone else and has prior experience with who knows what, then a non-issue, but are these new people supposed to just guess who they should watch closely and ask questions?
Perhaps that “collective” comment caused more than a few of us to pause. The word collective means something very negative to many of us. It is not a synonym for team. Yes, I even use the word occasionally when referring to our collective welfare, for instance, but would never comment on the welfare of our collective.
Well, I read through all of this, and I have a few comments as follows. And remember, I was in the Navy, so this is for posterity.
Badges? Badges? I never got no stinkin’ badges! (Well, somebody had to say it.)
I do know that during Vietnam, the VC looked for anyone who was marked as a leader and officers were told to remove their glittery rank insignia, unless they wanted to be targets. I think the dull brown collar pins evolved out of that, but not sure about that.
The only ‘badges’ I ever saw were unit patches like the Air Cavalry or the Big Red One – that sort of thing. Fleet sailors had a strip of embroidered lettering with the squadron or ship’s name sewn onto their jumpers, but that was about it. I occasionally saw an actual squadron patch, but not very often.
IMHO, the less an enemy in the field knows about you, the better off you are. But back at base or (in the Navy’s case) on shore duty, you should not have to hide it.
I don’t think that’s Hodne’s real haircolor. He’s too blondish.
But what do I know?
Too many badges and patches on the field uniform?
Easy fix. Send a suggestion up the chain of command that a “For Field Exercise Use Only” change be made to CTA 50-900.
The change would fall under the Supplemental Allowance, CTA Non-Standard LIN HM0069.
The item would be Maid, Hooch, OD Green in Color, One each.
Once the suggestion is approved (and the suggesting soldier has been awarded a few extra bucks), simply add the item to the field packing list for deployments/exercises that last more than 10 days, and most all proper wear of the uniform problems will be solved.
This is NCO business and easily fixed.
Or the Army could just change AR 670-1 to specify only pin-on badges on the field uniform, and give the commanders explicit authority to forbid their wear when deployed and/or during training exercises.
A semi-sanitized uniform (e.g., only name/rank/US Army/unit patch) has much to recommend it in the field. If that’s what the Army wants, then specify same and give the local commander specific latitude to order that – without requiring soldiers to sew/remove/sew stuff every time they go to the field or deploy.
Somehow our fathers and grandfathers who were in the Army after WWII, Korea, Vietnam, 80’s deployments, and Desert Storm were able to integrate large numbers of new personnel into existing units without having to resort to taking everyone down to the lowest common denominator.
While I understand the good Colonel’s intent (and I in no way disparage his contributions and sacrifice on behalf of the nation), I disagree with the technique.
I’m with Hondo that it would be interesting to know if Army G-1 gave their blessing to this?
My experience with them leads to believe that would be a “No” because they understand that if they do something like this once the local good idea fairy train just keeps on coming.
He ain’t flyin’ a rotary aircraft and that ain’t no Soviet farm, so I don’t know where he’s gettin that “collective” shit.
Next they’ll be marchin’ to
“I don’t know but I’ve hear tell
that gold lame’ looks really swell.
We’re worried how the FNG feels
so we’ll do PT in pink high heels”
It’s been close to 50 years since I was shipped from 106th Hospital in Japan to the 30th Arty on Okinawa. No slots for an 11Bravo so they stuck me in the commo shack, out of the way of the folks who know how to make the Hawks fly. As a lowly PFC who was buckin’ for General FU, I’m sure that on several occasions, the only thing that saved me from more Article 15s was the 9th ID patch on my right shoulder and the CIB and PH my I wore with my dress uniform. Several NCOs and Ossifers didn’t seem to care for me as a draftee, but they knew where I’d been and what I’d done.
Then again, me havin’ been just a poor leg, I saw the guys wearin’ the Screamin’ Chicken on their right shoulder were really sucked up to by all the wannabes who were never gonna go play in the mud.
What a douche bag idiot! What he is doing is destroying morale of the troops. He is settin a piss poor example as a leader.
“NCO’s would walk in the dayroom as the whole company was there and would say, ‘Anyone without a combat patch start pushing’ and I would be the ONLY guy getting smoked in front of everyone else for an hour,” he said. “This was the start of hazing over the next few months that led to overuse injuries, assault, and sexual assault … and almost death.”
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/2015/06/18/unit-promotes-no-patch-badge-rule-in-training/28927601/
Local Army Captain Claims Racial Harassment At Hands Of Fellow Soldiers
Capt. Mason reported the incidents to his commanding officer, Colonel David Hodne. According to Shauniss Mason, Hodne took no action. Hodne also did not respond to phone calls and emails from WAMU.
http://wamu.org/news/13/06/04/local_army_captain_claims_racial_harassment_at_hands_of_fellow_soldiers