Ed Snowden; Glen Greenwald’s weak sauce
DrewM sent us a link this morning about the guy who supposedly fed the NSA’s data mining story to Glenn Greenwald last week. And while I do believe that the NSA has been collecting information on completely innocent American citizens inside our borders, I’m not sure this Snowden dude is who he says he is. We’ve applied for a FOIA on his records, but here are my impressions of what he says about his military career. First from the Guardian and Greenwald;
By his own admission, he was not a stellar student. In order to get the credits necessary to obtain a high school diploma, he attended a community college in Maryland, studying computing, but never completed the coursework. (He later obtained his GED.)
In 2003, he enlisted in the US army and began a training program to join the Special Forces. Invoking the same principles that he now cites to justify his leaks, he said: “I wanted to fight in the Iraq war because I felt like I had an obligation as a human being to help free people from oppression”.
He recounted how his beliefs about the war’s purpose were quickly dispelled. “Most of the people training us seemed pumped up about killing Arabs, not helping anyone,” he said. After he broke both his legs in a training accident, he was discharged.
After that, he got his first job in an NSA facility, working as a security guard for one of the agency’s covert facilities at the University of Maryland. From there, he went to the CIA, where he worked on IT security. His understanding of the internet and his talent for computer programming enabled him to rise fairly quickly for someone who lacked even a high school diploma.
From the Army’s Special Forces recruiting page, the first three entries;
Qualifications
To become part of the Army’s Green Berets, you need to be mentally and physically tough, endure difficult training and face all challenges head-on. In addition to that, you must:
Be a male, age 20-30 (Special Forces positions are not open to women)
Be a U.S. citizen
Be a high school diploma graduate
He claims to be 29 now, so, in 2003 when he says he went through SF training, he was 19. He also didn’t have a high school diploma – so those two things disqualified him right there. He says that he “began a training program to join the Special Forces” which could mean anything really – since his training would have begun at BCT (Basic Combat Training), just the wording of that statement makes me think that he didn’t get anywhere near Camp Mackall. Looking at his picture, I don’t think I can imagine him on the 5 mile airport run at Mackall with a ruck packed with bricks.
Then he goes to tell how he thought he would be helping people, but the Army seemed more interested in killing Arabs. That makes me think that he was headed to a civil affairs job and he’s calling it “Special Forces” as we’ve seen phonies do in our pages. And yeah, in basic training they kinda teach new soldiers how to kill people who are intent on killing the new soldiers – hence the name “basic combat training”.
Snowden said that he admires both Ellsberg and Manning, but argues that there is one important distinction between himself and the army private, whose trial coincidentally began the week Snowden’s leaks began to make news.
“I carefully evaluated every single document I disclosed to ensure that each was legitimately in the public interest,” he said. “There are all sorts of documents that would have made a big impact that I didn’t turn over, because harming people isn’t my goal. Transparency is.”
He purposely chose, he said, to give the documents to journalists whose judgment he trusted about what should be public and what should remain concealed.
Serious lack of judgement, in that he “admires” Breanna Manning, the rotting corpse of Daniel Ellsberg and Sockpuppet Greenwald. Manning did what he did because he was mad at his boyfriend and Ellsberg clings to Manning hoping to become famous again. Greenwald is doing what Greenwald does best; sockpuppeting to defend himself.
We won’t know the true story about Snowden’s military career until we get his FOIA back, depending on whether or not the National Personnel Records Center wants to give it to us or not (they’re a little slow when the person we’re requesting is in the headlines), but since folks are asking me what I think – there it is – pure speculation.
ADDED:
Category: Who knows
Politico says it has his Army records; served only 5 months before getting a medical discharge, joined a Reserve unit but was trying to go SF. he was 20 when he enlisted.
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/edward-snowden-army-discharge-92486.html
I’m thinking he joined on a 18X contract(maybe), then never made it off Sand Hill, let alone made it to jump school and into the pipeline for going SF.
so dave and I posted at the same time. I guessed right, and only 5 months on a 18X? if he did trash his legs in jump school he is really stretching the truth a bit.
Jonn–the thread with TSO on Al-Jazeera had a post that claims he was in the Army for 4 1/2 months, completed no training, and earned no awards.
Basically, tossed out of boot camp, entry level separation.
Politico ran a May/September timeline from entry to discharge. I’m wondering if he broke a leg in Airborne school? The OSUT to Airborne School timeline metes out (my own was July/November back in 94).
That said, I was in the Rakkasans with another troopie that broke a leg at Airborne School and went on to a distinguished career as a leg, eventually getting over the disappointment of losing out on his RIP contract. Unless he was savagely broken, I call vaginitis.
Uncle J has a request for anyone to corroborate the Q school. As for the lack of a HS diploma, allegedly has a GED. But, he could have knocked the ASVAB out of the park and they gave him a waiver…I won’t hold my breath for the FOIA request because the gov’t is in big fucking trouble and they DO NOT want this guy to be who he says he is for sure.
The 20th SF Group has a company in MD. That is probably where he stated. If so, the FOIA results from St. Louis might be limited. Might be worth sending another request to TAG, MD.
honestly I always viewed the 18X contract as the Army throwing everything at the wall and hoping something would stick, and this guy kinda proves the point. Another case in point, one of my Joes had tried to join in ’02 on a 18X, but his DLAB score was just a little too low, so he joined on a 11X. Month after he shipped the Army dropped the min DLAB score for 18X to just below what he scored.
Andy: isn’t an 18X contract what gave us the renowned Michael “Bam Bam” Yawn?
According to graduation requirements for the 18x program as put out by recruiting info…
(10) Must be a high school graduate or have a general equivalency diploma (GED).
@9, not a clue Hondo.
Hasn’t a GED with 15 hours always been the norm in lieu of a diploma? News is saying he broke both legs.
[…] Update: Here’s an interesting link that came across the Twitter transom, that seems to indicate that Snowden is a serial liar. […]
20th Group is Guard though, unless they’re confusing Reserves with Guard. Wouldn’t be beyond the norm for the press, I imagine.
A lot of us went through Sand Hill with 18X up-and-comers, in my experience mostly through Guard units.
What about Civil Affairs/Psyops? Aren’t there Reserve units of that? In the absence of Sand Hill/Airborne school, though, the turnaround on becoming a brokedick seems really short. Oh well, I’ll wait for the FOIA.
BK, maybe he jumped off the third tier at 30th AG? there is a third tier, right? I passed through there in 92 so my memory is a little fuzzy. I just remember the big wooden benches, my grey book, and the smell of the basement CIF as you went down the ramp.
DefendUSA: There’s no chance he made it to the Q course, but that doesn’t mean the guy isn’t being truthful – it’s entirely possible the guy enlisted with the intent to go SF, and ‘trained’ (informally) to that extent. If I recall correctly, there was a big push at the time for more SOF people, and things like 18X or ‘SEAL challenge’ contracts were very common with recruiters.
UncleJ won’t get any corroboration.
What this guy did was asinine, and more typical of a disgruntled butt hurt kid who didn’t get his way… has a very high opinion of himself and holds others around him in low esteem…. He is not a whistle blower, he is hiding out in Hong Kong hoping to make some money and spite his former employers where he probably did not excel at the pace he felt he was owed.
There are two possibilities here. Either Snowden made this shit up, or Clapper lied to Congress. One of those two is a bit more serious than the other.
Isn’t Yawn a ‘Nam viet?
Daniel Ellsberg…Rick Ellensberg? Hmmm….
streetsweeper: negative. Yon was born in 1964; he was in grade school and likely waiting to start third grade when the last US combat unit (3d Bn 21st Infantry) left Vietnam on 11 August 1972. Yon served on active duty from 1982-1987.
http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=30788
An Open Bog Message to Eddie Boy:
Run … run like crazy … run like you are being chased by the Federal Government, other friendly nations, and … OH yeah … don’t forget the CIA.
You piece of sh*t … run!
Army Times is also confirming Snowden’s military career as being May-Sep 2004.
http://www.armytimes.com/article/20130610/NEWS06/306100025/NSA-leaker-s-Army-career-short
In any case, I heard this today and went to look it up…Maxine Waters said this in February of 2013:
“The President has put in place an organization with the kind of database that no one has ever seen before in life,” said Representative Waters. “That’s going to be very, very powerful,” Waters said. “That database will have information about everything on every individual on ways that it’s never been done before and whoever runs for President on the Democratic ticket has to deal with that. They’re going to go down with that database and the concerns of those people because they can’t get around it. And he’s [President Obama] been very smart. It’s very powerful what he’s leaving in place.”
She said, “The PResident”…so whoop der it is. How many more in Congress knew about this “overreach?”
Here’s a link…
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=49a_1360284775
Bolo-ing at Benning isn’t necessarily the end for cats. How many guys did we know that didn’t make it out of fat camp at the forementioned 30th AG? Or indeed, took the plunge from one of the balconies? There’s always that story about the guy that tied the cord of a floor buffer around his neck, tossed it off the balcony, only to have underestimated the length of the cord, succeeding only in making the mistake of living through such foolishness.
My sense is that this leak was inevitable, by the way. The way the President and administration are abstracting certain terms with regards to Internet intel gathering are driving me up a wall, and the reluctance of the Left to be afraid, be very afraid reveals far too much hypocrisy for my taste. I don’t think Snowden matters, in the grand scheme of things, because a crisis of conscience was bound to hit someone, somewhere, with any domestic surveillance program.
Nuts, if it weren’t Maxine Waters, whom only her constituency and the Congressional Black Caucus take seriously, it would be great!
18X is a ‘throw a bunch of people into training, see who makes it’ philosophy. They then let the others serve as needs of the Army or discharged if they wash out. It was often the only option prior service could enlist for. I wonder how many made it through since the option first came out in the late 80’s? If I recall correctly, that was Yawn’s way into SF.
It also looks like this dude never made it to SFAS, or whatever they call assessment and selection nowadays.
This is my favorite statement: “He said he chose China because “they have a spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent.”
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/snowden-nsa-leak-whistleblower-cia-204241311.html
As soon as I read that, I doubted most of what he said, especially the Army part.
@29, I’m guessing China was used by the reporter there instead of Hong Kong. Probably why they didn’t quote him.
Clearly he qualifies for IVAW membership.
This is the article I read and what it said about him going into the Army and the whole SF thing:
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/10/18877589-diplomatic-intrigue-where-will-unmasked-nsa-leaker-go
“Snowden grew up in North Carolina and enlisted in the Army in 2003 in hopes of joining the Special Forces. But he broke both legs in a training accident and was discharged, he said.”
I don’t want to get into a pissing match with any members on here, but I honestly want to something…
#1) The other day when the story was posted on here that the gov’t was downloading multiple phone records, even without any reason to do so, many of you posted about how outrageous you felt it was.
#2) Then today, it is revealed that Snowden is supposedly the source of that information
So, my question is how do you feel about Snowden’s decision to reveal this information?
So far on this thread, most of you have just discussed whether or not he is being truthful about his military service. So far, I have seen nothing to prove he wasn’t being truthful. But I have only seen 2 posts about how he is a piece of shit and how he should “run and hide.” (#17 & #22)
“…help free people from oppression”…want to puke on that statement. Another SF wannabe BOLO-NOGO. As for#8 Andy…I know a hell a lot of SF soldiers who were awarded SS,Purple Hearts etc. that went right into SF way before there ever was such a thing as 18X. It was a million years ago…but it was done.
Okay Jax, I’ll bite. I’m a frequent lurker, rare poster and I will answer your question.
1) I’m outraged by the NSA program; and
2) Snowden should be prosecuted
That’s an imbalanced opinion to hold, I guess. But there is a broken law which must be enforced, regardless of the criminal intent.
Best to all here on TAH!
@33 Its about credibility. Right now, we have a single source of information claiming that this issue is as bad as he says it is. On the other side of the story you have an Administration saying “Yes, he’s mostly right but its not as bad as he makes it sound”.
So who do we believe? A lot of people are going to support and believe in Snowden because they want it to be true. A lot of people are going to support and believe in the Administration because they want that story to be true.
So before I can decide how I feel about Snowden and his decision to release the information I need to know a bit more about him. Doing so will help me to understand his motivations in releasing the information and let me asses his credibility.
At this point, I think he did the right thing in the wrong way. That is assuming everything he’s saying is true. If it comes to light that he is lying about his military experience, or is misrepresenting it, then I will have to re-evaulate that position.
A few rambling thoughts:
If he was doing the 18X program, the timing was right for him to have been injured at Airborne (16 weeks OSUT, would have put him in tower week when he got out), although given that the Army doesn’t boot you out the second you get injured the injury likely took place at BCT or AIT.
in 2004 CAPOC was part of SOCOM and recruiters were really pushing it as “SF lite” (my unit still has boxes of posters to that effect). If his training schedule in 2004 was anything like mine in 2007, then he would have injured himself about the time we did Nasty Nick.
Speculation aside, there’s just too much I don’t know to be able to rationally and objectively hold a qualified opinion on him as a person. Which impacts what I think about his claims.
@33 I didn’t rush to judgment when the leak was revealed because I don’t know what the program actually is. I don’t know if it’s a complete collection violation of privacy or a data dump to develop an algorithm constant in terms of normal phone data activity versus abnormal or terrorist data activity. In that regard the large downloads of normal American phone activity could be a method to establish that control group versus a pernicious surveillance. Again since we don’t know what the program actually is we don’t know what the data collection is for.
If Mr. Snowden committed a crime while releasing this information he will have to answer for that. If he intends to ask for and receive whistle blower protection status seeking asylum in Iceland seems an incorrect approach. His actions thus far as suspect. If they are criminal or not remains to be seen.
I do believe the Patriot Act and the subsequent privacy, search, and protection losses are a huge problem for our civil liberties. The correct way to address that is to contact your legislator and begin the fight to repeal that terrible piece of legislation, the wrong way is to release classified documents and steal information that you are not authorized to release.
That’s my two cents, your opinion might clearly carry more value for you.
Even if Snowden had a legitimate reason to think he was blowing a whistle, he went the wrong way about it, and he knew he was going the wrong way about it. Add the fact that he was doing this in a time of war.
Remember the Abu Ghraib scandal? That came out because a soldier gave the information to CID. He did not give it to the press. (It was the perps themselves that did that.)
Not really sure how I feel about this guy. On one hand, I tend not to like leaks (especially manning’s), but on the other hand, this is really something I think I should have known about. Two weeks ago, this degree of monitoring was tinfoil hat territory. Was this material classified? I’ve heard it mentioned as being a ‘secret’ but I have no idea how precise news media language is.
So what do you believe he SHOULD have done? Who should he have given the information to?
ugh, I’m conflicted here. violating the law is sometimes necessary but only if you’re also willing to suffer the punishments that go along with it. just finished reading Crito so my head is mush.
There are different issues at play here (listed in order of pertinence to this particular article, not importance of legality). One is the credibility of Snowden, including his claims to experience and military record. Second are his motivations. Third are his intentions. Fourth is the question of legality or criminality. Fifth are the programs and information exposed, its legality and the correct method of dealing with it. The 18X program was in use in 2003. The requirements for entry were probably different than those in use today. Last I checked, the Army does accept GED’s at all, now, but then it did. A previous version of the 18X program also existed during Yon’s entry into the military. The 1980’s results were the reason why the program was discontinued for more than a decade. A GED in no way is an indication that someone is not intelligent, or not trainable. It could be deemed as an indication that they lack the will to finish what they start. I have even known people that tested out of school with a GED before their classmates graduated HS. Frankly, his claims to military service are vague enough that they could imply things more grandiose than the reality, but are not outright false. The rest of his “bio” appears to be one that builds upon implication of greater position than reality to achieve the one he wanted, i.e. from security guard to actual intel. His motivation appears to be of the same vein as Mannings, i.e. that “world citizen” BS. His intentions appear to be the exposure of an illegal practice. But his intentions also demonstrate the potential for exposure to an enemy of classified information. If the program itself was illegal, and be endorsed by the highest levels of government (including the judicial system, the NSA, and the President and Congress), as indicated by the exposed FISA court ruling and subsequent statements by the President and Congressmen, then he truly had no “higher authority” to appeal the information to. Which brings us to the question of legality of the program itself. It is completely… Read more »
@ #33: The easy explanation for why most of the comments preceding your question were about his military service is simply because that was the posted topic. Nothing complicated about it.
Meanwhile – nothing has changed for me. IF he released classified materials to unauthorized persons, then he should fry for it. So far, we have people claiming that he did and people assuming that he did, but so far we so not actually know that he did. He may or may not have done so.
More to the point of this topic, he should not misrepresent his military service, but may or may not have done that either.
#40: There are several decent ways to go about whistleblowing.
The NSA probably has something like an inspector general’s office, and a lot of other legal offices. The place is full of lawyers. As I said, Abu Ghraib came to light when a soldier gave the evidence to Army CID. The NSA probably has something comparable.
At the very least, he could have leaked it to a congressman.
Let’s face it: This is still a young guy. He probably doesn’t know for sure if this stuff is even illegal. He didn’t know if there was already congressional oversight. He doesn’t have the right to decide this for himself.
There is no excuse to be giving this stuff to the press. That’s especially true when we’re at war.
Well anonymous in Jax, I stand by what I said about him. It is based on the interviews I watched him give where he showed himself to have an axe to grind. Not to mention the fact he fled to freaking CHINA!! Oh, they have such great free press there….
What NSA did or is accused of doing that is another story. He had other avenues he could have pursued. He chose to flee to China and betray his countries National Security methods and capabilities to the entire world.
“I carefully evaluated every single document I disclosed to ensure that each was legitimately in the public interest,” says Snowden. I have just a bit of trouble trusting in the judgement of someone who thinks that fleeing to Red China is a good idea. Not to mention his idolization of Daniel Ellsberg and Breanna Manning.
@45: To be fair, Hong Kong is a special part of China with its own rules. Could they be pressured by Beijing? Certainly, but that opens up a whole can of worms that China doesn’t want to deal with, either. All in all, it wasn’t as bad a place to head to as some here would think.
In other words, nobody (with any experience there) equates Hong Kong with ‘Red China’.
https://www.dmdc.osd.mil/appj/scra/single_record.xhtml – DOD search for active duty dates. If you search Edward Snowden, birthday = 21JUN1983, and use an Active Duty Status As Of date of, say, 1JUL2004, it shows his dates on active duty were 3JUN2004 – 28SEP2004. My guess: 7MAY was his enlistment day, one month of DEP, shipped on Thursday, 3JUN. That would make a BCT Week 1/Day 1 of Friday, 11JUN. 11B OSUT was 14 weeks at the time, I believe, so that means he was fully separated from the Army, all leave burned, by the time his buddies were in Tuesday of Tower Week. In other words: dude washed out of basic. “Special Forces Training” my ass.
@47, Hong Kong is Sovereign to China. Regardless of what else goes on there, it is still China. It is no longer a British Colony, and as I understand it he is seeking political asylum. Meaning to me, he really did not want to face the music here because he knows he screwed the pooch. The fact that he fled is more an issue than the fact he ended up in China… and yes I will stick by that, as it is a Sovereign Territory of China. He is a target now, not just for the US to apprehend him, he placed a huge billboard over his head that he has a huge amount of Intelligence certain countries would kill to get their hands on.
@49: I understand what you’re saying, but the reality of the situation is a bit more complex – HK is a ‘Special Administrative Region’ of China, so while it’s a part of China, it has a huge degree of autonomy when it comes to .. well, pretty much everything except national (Chinese) defense. Law enforcement? Local government? Things like extradition? All handled locally in the SARs. Sure, Beijing can wield some influence, but that can misfire just as often as succeed, and in this situation, things are pretty delicate.
The fact that he fled? Sure, that could be a problem. I don’t quite understand it, too, since he wasn’t hiding behind any anonymity. I also wonder ‘Why now?’, since indications are he thought of doing something like this ages back. He apparently owned a place in Hawaii with a girlfriend, too – I’d like to hear her thoughts. Without a doubt, there’s more of this story to come out.