Yuh-uh, IVAW don’t disrespect vets
The above photo is from Adam Kokesh’s blog (click the photo for link) – the banner was designed by Jonathan DeWald and posted on Kokesh’s blog just this last Sunday (h/t Robin for sending me the link this morning). In the event that Kokesh takes it down, I’ve saved a .pdf of the web page.
But I’ve been getting emails and comments in reference to the post below about how I should stop being disrespectful to veterans and I should stop questioning their service – at least one of the commenters here also commented on Kokesh’s post. That same commenter disavowed knowing DeWald – well the page URL has DeWald’s name in it, for pete’s sake and since you commented on his artwork, Army Sergeant, you’re certainly familiar with his work, aren’t you?. I didn’t see you criticize DeWald or Kokesh like you’ve tried to chastise me.
DeWald – a member of the Iraq Veterans Against the War who has never set foot or laid eyes on Iraq – is questioning the service of members of the Gathering of Eagles.
First off, the name of the organization doesn’t make the claim that it’s an organization of veterans like IVAW claims to be an organization of veterans who served in Iraq. A classification that DeWald can’t claim, by the way. I’ve at least been to Iraq three times in the space of a month – each time under combat conditions – but I don’t qualify for membership in the IVAW.
Secondly, I’ve never met a member of the Gathering of Eagles who wasn’t a veteran – most are veterans of Viet Nam.
Now if DeWald and Kokesh are trying to claim that the Gathering of Eagles members aren’t “real” veterans because they haven’t served in Iraq, DeWald must include himself under that “never served” tag, too, and Kokesh would have to admit that he didn’t serve honorably in Iraq, since he smuggled an Iraqi pistol back from Iraq during his service there – which is why he was busted a pay grade and he was refused a second tour to Iraq.
Of course, neither will admit to the reality of the circumstances, mainly because they’re self-serving hypocrites and a bit delusional. But before the rest of you, who might have legitimate reasons for being members of IVAW, go off half-cocked, please look at the public face you’ve put on the organization. If you want to save a modicum of credibility, you have to purge your ranks of the criminals, liars and sociopaths.
And try applying the same standards to your own ranks that you try to impress upon me.
Category: Antiwar crowd, Gathering of Eagles, Iraq Veterans Against the War, Phony soldiers, Politics
The IVAW tends to attract some pretty undesirable characters, doesn’t it?
Oh yeah, and what kills me is Dewald’s incessant bullshit over The Gathering of Eagles, and “those who served”. This moonbat is totally oblivious to his audience. Most of us not only served, but actually deployed to war; an item missing from Dewald’s DD214, unless of course, he “modifies it” in time for their little Winter Soldier redux. What an asshat. All of them.
Damn, nice catch dude.
Just for the record GoE and Eagles Up have many fine members who are not Vets, nor even Combat Vets.
Re:
Just for the record GoE and Eagles Up have many fine members who are not Vets, nor even Combat Vets.
Comment by ponsdorf — February 8, 2008 @ 10:51 am
The GOE, unlike the IVAW, actually supports the troops and the mission. The GOE is being bad-mouthed by the IVAW as if none of them served or have the right to call Kokesh, Dewald, and company, what they are: useful idiots for the Islamofascists and their supporters.
When the IVAW *people* “testify” about war crimes that they committed or observed
(a la Beauchamp), could they please sign a form beforehand swearing that their testimony is
being given under the penalty of perjury? And please do videotape them.
My military days are long past, but my days as a federal prosecutor are still in full swing.
Admissions by criminals are deeply appreciated.
I mentioned that to them a few weeks ago, 509th Bob, that I’d like to see sworn affidavits and DD214s. They told me it’s too much paperwork to keep track of. Besides, I should just trust them; what could possibly motivate them to lie? 🙂
Jonn, I’m beginning to throw up my hands at you.
If you think I have not criticized over the De Wald flap, then you haven’t been paying attention to my very public commentary on multiple journals. Why? Probably because it doesn’t fit the image that you would like-the image of an IVAW member concerned about insults possibly thrown by an IVAW member certainly doesn’t jive with your idea that we’re all a bunch of jerks.
And you are again, a liar, if you say I said DD214s were too much paperwork. I said explicitly that DD214s were being required for EVERYONE who claims they’re a vet there. Bloggers, sure, AND testifiers. And since I’m pretty sure I’m the only IVAW member that’s actually talking to you civilly, I’m wondering where you got that crazy idea from, unless you invented it.
And by all means, let’s look at the comment I left on DeWald’s artwork. Clearly it was laudatory! Oh wait!
If you have never served you have a right to an opinion, just like any other citizen. However, I think it does call into question your willingness to send other people’s sons into combat.
That sure is some insulting of veterans I do there, Jonn. If it’s Opposite Day or something.
GI Jane: The Gathering of Eagles does not support the troops. I went to their forum because I thought they did support the troops. I was nothing but civil. However, my being an IVAW member and active duty Army had me kicked off and banned from the forums within two days, after people had urged me to desert and vilified me six ways from Sunday.
Um, true or not – at first you told me that seeing every DD214 would disrupt your little “hearings”, did you not? Until I suggested that a book of redacted DD214s that couldn’t leave the room should be made available, you said it’d be too much trouble for bloggers to check out the veracity of this “testimony”.
Your comment on Kokesh’s blog didn’t criticize DeWald or Kokesh for questioning the service of veterans like you, DeWald and Anonomous all criticized me for yesterday did it? That was my point.
And Gathering of Eagles DOES support the troops – they just don’t support you. You’re certainly not representative of the majority of “the troops” per se, wouldn’t you agree?
Throw up your hands all you want. If you don’t like the way I see stuff, change the way it looks to me.
I commend you for having the guts to comment here, though, especially after the way these guys make you look.
I said DD214s would be required for all, but that no, you could not randomly jump up and demand that every testifier show you personally their DD214. Not that requiring DD214s would be too much paperwork. There’s a huge, huge difference.
And actually, I would disagree that I’m not representative of the troops. The only way in which I differ from a large number is that I speak out. A lot of troops dislike the Iraq War, and a lot of them think it is BS. There’s also a lot of active duty within IVAW, some of them currently deployed, which is another reason not everyone will be attending Winter Soldier.
My comment on their blog didn’t criticize them for questioning service, because as I saw it, they weren’t questioning service, they were criticizing non-service, which is why I pointed out all citizens had a right to their opinion. Some GoE members may have served, but from the entire 2 days I saw in their forums before being banned for daring to be IVAW and Army at the same time, a majority of those talking to me had not, though many were relatives or spouses of those who had.
“Never Served” questions service, fella. The implication is that people without actual service in THIS VERY WAR don’t have opinions that count. Even my war in Iraq doesn’t count. And you only have the moral authority to have an opinion counter to theirs if you served AFTER my war – even if you didn’t serve in Iraq, apparently.
I guess when people subscribe to a philosophy that is so intellectually vacuous, if they define the parameters of the argument narrow enough, no one can disagree with them.
By the way, all soldiers dislike all wars.
A soldier could be swimming in ice-cold chocolate sauce on a tropical island with two naked co-eds of each hair color, loud rock music blasting and an endless supply of fresh, free cheeseburgers and beer. But as soon as you ask how he’s doing, without a thought he’d say “This is bullshit, man.”
That may be the implication you took from it, that’s not the implication I took from it. I took “never served” to equal, well…”never served”, as in, were never members of the military. Otherwise that would just seem crazy.
Also, Jonn, much as I was a little annoyed, that last paragraph is hysterically funny. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but I know everybody wants to be posted to that war.
I stress: annoyed by earlier, not annoyed by your ideal-war entertainment.
Army Sergeant: This is really stupid on your part:
“However, I think it does call into question your willingness to send other people’s sons into combat.”
The last time I checked Soldier,we have an all volunteer miltary. NO BODY “sends” their sons (and daughters) into combat. They enlisted, they serve, they are sent where they are needed. If they cannor handle that, they shouldn’t go anywhere near a recruiting office.
As for the GOE: They don’t support the IVAW. Big difference, bub.
“I don’t know if it’s true or not….”
You know it’s true – that’s why it’s funny.
Army SGT,
What did you expect when you volunteered for the Army? Don’t tell me you are the first draftee since the draft was abolished.
Did you expect just to get a free ride to college perhaps? When in the military we don’t get to pick & choose our wars, we go where the President and both houses send us. You volunteered and now your’re crying about it? You a$$ wipes make as much sense as the VVAW, correction you make less sense because all you guys volunteered & were NOT drafted.
Oh by the way Jonn, I’ve blogged about these losers here:
http://sfcmac.wordpress.com/2008/02/08/ivaw-losers-to-host-winter-soldier-ii/
Thanks for the link! I’ll make sure to drop a link to your blog on mine. And as for veterans arguing amongst each other, I still maintain that we should all just get along.
“I still maintain that we should all just get along.”
Are you really Rodney King?
I expected when I joined the Army that I would defend my nation and keep my oath. If that meant war, then that meant war. But war for my country and its people.
Go ahead. Make fun of that if you want to.
Jonn: At least the junior enlisted might. I think the NCOs would be loving the cake.
Also, GI Jane, saying GOE supports the troops but not IVAW is not any different than people saying they support the veterans but not GOE. I’m IVAW and a troop. These lines are not clearly delineated. People are complicated individuals, and hardly black and white.
“I expected when I joined the Army that I would defend my nation and keep my oath. If that meant war, then that meant war. But war for my country and its people.”
Then apparently since you went to war for your country you’ve had a change of heart, and now belong to IVAW.
The house overwhelmingly vote in favor of giving the CIC the power to go to war. The Democrats in the Senate voted in favor at least 56% of the Dem’s did. If you now have a gripe, you should take it up with your elected officials who voted in favor of the bill.
I don’t have, and I never will have any respect for folks in the military doing this kind of crap while your brothers in arms are still fighting in the heat & sands of Iraq.
I asked before and I’ll ask again, which one of you is going to be the new Hanoi John Kerry? Also, how can one join the IVAW if you never served in country?
Army Sergeant: Laugh? Are you out of your fucking mind, kid? That’s right, this war IS being fought for this country and it’s people. Too bad your buddies at IVAW don’t comprehend that. BTW, sweetpea, pay attention to those you’re addressing. I’ve been to war, Jonn’s been there, a lot of the contributors and posters on this thread have been there. The trouble is, the scatterbrains in the IVAW just don’t get it. Obviously, they don’t understand the “all volunteer” concept any more than they do the reasons for this war. Maybe 9/11 didn’t hit close enough to their own back yards. What about striking back against Islamofascists and their supporters in the Middle East (shit, pick a country) don’t they understand? All of them bitch about Iraq, and Afghanistan for that matter, but none of them have come up with their own grand master plan ie: what they would have done subsequent the attacks. Not one. Capitulation, kissing Islamic ass, and “can’t we all just get along” tripe doesn’t count. I’ve said this before and it bears repeating: Whomever enlists in the military knows that they will be sent wherever they are needed. Iraq is one of the battlegrounds in the WOT, therefore, they are needed there as well as Afghanistan. The problem with these kids is their pompous sense of entitlement. They join just for the ‘college money’ and are genuinely shocked when they get sent to do what they were trained for. Not only was Afganistan a major operating base for al Qadea but: Hussein was a WMD-wielding megalomaniac, and quite frankly, I’m glad we ousted the son of a bitch and destroyed the WMDs we found before he could use them. The real bullshit is not making Syria and Iran into asphalt parking lots along with Iraq and Afghanistan on 12 September 2001. We weren’t in Iraq or Afghanistan before 9/11 either. By the way, Hussein not only gave thousands of dollars to families of suicide bombers, but he cavorted with al Qaeda: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/328youfz.asp http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/804yqqnr.asp?pg=1 In case you haven’t figured it out, al Qadea would cross… Read more »
typos: seveal=several incongrous=incongruous
Careful, Jane when you put too many links in your post, it gets filtered out as spam.
Jonn, okie dokie on the links.
BTW: navairdan posted this on chickenhawkexpress:
Don’t talk to army sergeant, he’s a major IVAW troll. He solicits comments from pro-troop blogs then puts them on his blog and twists them. He’s a bug, and a liar. Ignore him.
He was in the GOE site for a while, stirring shit up. His profile initially had “Currently in IRAQ”, “Active member of the IVAW”, he spoke in absolutes terms that he was leading troops in Iraq. Turns out he got a desk job, in Texas or less then that. Liar! He was tolerated waaaay more then he should’ve. The more his motives were challanged, the more items dissapeared from his profile.
IVAW? Same old shitzen everytime.
navairdan | 02.08.08 – 12:30 pm | #
Navairdan is a damn liar. I never put on my profile that I was serving in Iraq currently. I said that I’m an active member of the IVAW, and active duty Army.
Also, I defy anyone to point a quote I’ve posted from a blog that has been ‘twisted’. I don’t generally even quote other people’s blogs, and the ones I have, I’ve asked permission first. Hell, I don’t even publish emails without permission.
Also, I suppose everyone has missed the part where I say that I am not against the war in Afghanistan? Also, the Weekly Standard is hardly an unbiased and neutral source. Saddam, bad as he was, had a more secular state than Al-quaeda wanted.
GI Jane, You seem to love the “for the college money” attack. If that were the case, everyone in IVAW would have gotten out after four years and gone to college. How do you deal with all these mid-career or two-term veterans? Obviously for then it wasn’t All About The College Money.
Also, “can’t we all just get along” was from LT Nixon, was probably half in jest, and he is a good guy who happens to support the war, so don’t crap on him just because you feel like taking a dump on me.
I understand the all volunteer concept, but no, I don’t understand the reasons for the Iraq War. Going to war everywhere that radical groups lurk is a shit-poor option, and would lead to us being at war with half the globe.
If you think we should turn half the world to glass, then really, there’s no sense debating with you. I don’t think fighting in Iraq has made America one bit better, and I think it’s interfered with our military readiness. It is not defending my country to fight in another one which has no relation. Saudi Arabia supplied terrorists for 9/11-do you want to go there too?
For the record, I support the current counterinsugrency strategy in Iraq, but I don’t agree with the reasons we went in. GI Jane, I think turning Syria and Iran into the proverbial “asphalt parking lot” may not be the best way to conduct ourselves as a civilized nation. And as for “just getting along”, I whole-heartedly believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and name-calling on both sides isn’t helping boost the image of vets with political opinions. I don’t agree with IVAW, but I think Army SGT is a sane, rational person with his own opinions that I respect. It’s okay to have differing opinions and even befriend those people, this is, after all, a democracy.
The idea that people “send their kids to war” is true. What it means is support a war that your kids have a chance to fight in. Most people in congress don’t have a child in the service. Its the idea that if there was a draft people would not be so vigorously supporting the war because either their own kids would have to go fight it OR they would have to go fight it (college rebublicant’s) On College Money and Enlisting: Finally something we all agree on!! Lets all work together to STOP the military from offering college money so we don’t have any more of those wimps who join just for the money. We can be a coalition of the willing. As far as this war goes: Does anyone remember BinLaden? Does anyone remember using him to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Are all of you fine and dandy with our service members lives and blood being used to clean up the mistakes of politicians past? The point is that politicians who make the decisions DO NOT do so in a way that looks out for the long term greater good for America. The point is that many people support this war because its “their team”, whether that be Team Republican/Conservative or Team America. When you support a war based on your team and not what is right (Just War theory anyone?) then you may not be thinking clearly. Before your head explodes I have the same criticism for ISO members who support anyone in Iraq who doesn’t like the US. They have no problem verbally supporting fundamentalist Islamic groups in Iraq who treat women like dogs and kill them if they don’t wear a head scarf. Iraq did not used to be like that. I don’t think those groups are good for Iraq and neither do I believe that US firepower and bombs are either. Our politicians are not in Iraq for the good of the Iraqi people. Or the US people. If what happened on Sept 11th was wrong then I would also say to GI… Read more »
Um, “Concerned”, I don’t which of your “points” is the most ridiculous. I’d have never gotten a college education if it weren’t for the Army – and a lot of people on this board are in the same boat. The military is an opportunity for alot of people to become all that they can despite the social situation into which they were born. I know you probably figure the government should just hand everyone a college diploma – I prefer that people put effort into their own futures.
You seem to be a nihilist – you apparently don’t believe we should be able to defend our national security interests. That’s just naive. Just like your views on a draft. Forty years ago you’d have been fighting against a draft – now you fight for a draft. That’s just juvenile.
The only reason any of you are against this war against terrorism is that it’s being fought successfully, by a Republican Administration. And it’s being fought by American volunteers who stream into recruiting offices across the country – because they believe in this country. I even volunteered to return to active duty and give up my 6-figure income because I believe in the goodness this nation has at it’s heart.
I’m no sheep. I don’t march to the drumbeat merely because of the rhythm. I’ve seen the horror that governments inflict on their people, I’ve seen the aftermath of suicide attacks and I believe that every single person in the world deserves the kind of life and opportunity I’ve inherited from my antecedents. Not a day goes by that I don’t drop to my knees and give thanks for the what this country has given me, my family and the world.
But narrow-minded, short-sighted half-educated know-it-alls poison the debate with hateful, ignorant rhetoric.
That’s the end of this debate. I’m shutting off comments for this thread.