Thoughts From Poetrooper
Our own Poetrooper penned this, and asked me to post it up. Agree or not, my only possible response to a master writer like Poe is, Aye-Aye. He’s recovering from a debilitating bout with cancer, and claims to be slow of thought and has difficulty stringing a sentence together. I respectfully disagree, but you, TAH readers, will have to make up your own minds.
Separating Politics from the Military is a Fool’s Errand
Poetrooper
In reading the more than 250 comments to Extra Admin’s post, “New Beginnings or Status Quo,” I was absolutely thunderstruck by the multiple commenters expressing a desire to ban political posts and stick to topics of a military nature. What is so shocking is that so many of you who read and comment here have spent crucial parts of your lives as warriors right out at the tip of the nation’s spear, a military spear to be sure, but more factually and more actually, at the tip of a political spear engaged in campaigns ordered up and designed to effect desired political outcomes. What is it about that reality of that political nature of your service that you do not get?
True, we swear an oath to protect the Constitution and the United States of America but is that constitution not a political document, conceived and enacted by a group of politicians for the purpose of humanely governing and guaranteeing the continued existence of a political entity, this United States of America we so revere? There is no question that this same political entity has been since its founding under the control of politicians who in that almost two and a half centuries have directed our military forces into countless campaigns, both at home and abroad to serve the political needs of those in power. It wasn’t generals and admirals who initiated all those conflicts purely for military purposes—it was politicians, each and every time, doing it to attain their desired political ends.
In 1965, it may have been Army generals who demanded my presence in South Vietnam to fight but it was politicians, a Democrat president operating with the support of a compliant Democrat Congress, who ordered those generals to do so. There in those stinking rice paddies and steaming jungles we faced an enemy we knew little about except that their political beliefs and ambitions differed from those of the politicians who had sent us there. Several years and 58,000 American lives later, those same Democrats lost their political nerve and their military will and just walked away, rendering those sacrifices and the dedicated service of millions of military participants meaningless, leaving our ally nation as a helpless victim to our vicious opponents. It was not the generals and admirals who lost their determination to defeat that enemy but a political entity, the Democrat Congress, which cut off funding for the troops as well as South Vietnam’s armed forces, a purely political decision made by cowardly politicians.
In the years since my war, it’s not the generals that I have cursed but those craven congressmen. And in those fifty years, how many times have politicians ordered our military forces into deadly actions that again required the ultimate sacrifice, only to get political cold feet once again, and order withdrawal before our military can complete the mission? What’s more, where do you think all those restrictive Rules of Engagement that so hamper our military efforts originate? That’s right, from political brains in political counsels and for purely political considerations. Politicians fully understand that the military exists to carry out their political wishes; they fully grasp that the Founding Fathers put ultimate control of our military in their hands.
So it is truly baffling to me how so many of you who have been ordered to war by these politicians, and whose children and grandchildren, now or in the future, do or will serve at the behest of similar politicians, seem to think that discussions of current politics and who these future politicians will be, have no place on this military forum? Good grief! If there is any place where politics should be a topic of keen interest it is on a milblog where participants’ very lives have been determined by politics and if you are involved with the Veterans Administration’s health care system, may very well still be so.
Look, I understand that politics is everywhere nowadays and I get tired of hearing constant political commentary by talking heads as well. However, as members and representatives of our military and veterans’ communities, we very much need to pay close attention and share our concerns as to what politicians are planning to do to this nation. I have come to love this site and its members since I first surfed in back in 2012 and was impressed enough to ask Jonn to let me be a part of it. And while my contributions have been diminished due to disease and age, TAH is my first stop when I turn this computer on each morning. So it pains me no end to say that for the first time in almost seven years here, this old man is truly disappointed in a few of you whom I thought were better thinkers than your comments about banning political posts reflect.
Thank you, Poetrooper.
Category: Big Pentagon, Politics
Firstly,
“recovering from a debilitating bout with cancer” The word recovering sticks out. Good.
Secondly, Your reference to the politics of the Vietnam War drives the point home.
You young veterans pay attention to that.
Lastly, I was thrilled to shake General Westmorelands hand at a public gathering of veterans. He did not send us off to war. It was the politicians and my ire for what transpired is soley on them.
Excellent post.
Just….daaaayuuumnn. I stand in awe Poetrooper. This should be required reading for every self centered, egotistical, re-election focused, self serving political hack out there. Not only just to be read, but also to be comprehended, memorized, write a thesis on, and followed by the same. Which the above adjectives describe 90% of elected officials out there.
Excellent post, we of our generation, and “our war” Thank You. Continue your recovery Brother, God Bless and Keep you.
I’ll just leave this here: If the politicians had to fight the wars, there would be no wars.
What if they wanted a war and nobody showed up.
Excellent !
Speedy recovery Brother . We need to keep you around a bit longer .
And , Welcome Home .
Poe is correct.
I remember sitting in Bagdad watching the President give away the hard won victory over AQ in Iraq by choosing to support Al Maliki rather than the person the voters of Iraq had actually elected.
It was as if 1969 were occurring again.
If you don’t understand the political goals and the strengths and weaknesses of various political personalities, you will never understand the real story.
Which is why I for one (among several here) are not shy about things we have seen lead to disaster in our own experience.
Having political insights and opinions should not be something we shy away from.
Amen
I confess TAH is my first stop on my phone in the morning after PT and before going back to work.
I thought I was the only one doing that.
Same here except for the morning PT thing. Nowadays my PT is done later in the day.
Believe it or not, Poe, I had the same take on the comments to that post so I was pleasantly surprised to see your article this morning. I cannot come close to your gift for going, as you did, directly to the heart of the matter. You captured it perfectly. Politics and things political are about who leads, who gets what, how much, and when. Those things are about who gets put in harm’s way and why. As Veterans, we have a responsibility to be more aware of politicians and political decision making than other citizens. I do not want to leave the fate of our nation or our servicemen and women in the hands of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Pelosi, or Rashida Tlaib. Does this mean these people and others ought to be discussed here, at TAH? You’re damn straight it does.
Amen Brother. I was too late for Vietnam being in flight school at Pensacola but you are right on in your analysis. It is the politicians that fire the opening salvo most of the time. But they are also the first the run from the fight they initiated. They do not have the resolve to stand fast to the convictions that started the armed conflict to begin with. They lose the resolve to provide the means, the materials and the ROE to win. Stay the course or stay out of the game. All they are doing is putting our nation’s most valued resources, material and warfighters in jeopardy.
Amen Poe! God’s speed on your recovery!
Bam!
On his worst day, Poe still strings words together better than 99.999% of us can even imagine, so keep on keepin’ on, brother.
Now. To the topic at hand.
If anyone wishes to live in an apolitical world, here’s a bit of advice – get used to being disappointed. It’s not gonna happen.
While I have some sympathy for those who fear this blog becoming just another political blog (there are already sooooo many of those), it still wouldn’t be because we are not just a bunch of typical folks posting opinions.
Oh. And I completely agree with Poe. Everything is political. That said, I still come here to get away from the political hate that permeates everything else these days.
Agree. Great post. Could be why I am cynical of all politicians. I didn’t go to Panama for vacation.
Panama, come for the jungle stay for the bungle….
“Recovering” hopefully quickly and completely good sir, the world is a better place with your presence.
Excellent article, even when we disagree good sir your words are never poorly written and I’ve perhaps stated my opposition at time to your positions but never to how you’ve articulated that position. I can find no fault with this article either in position or construct.
Well said and I agree with you that all of our military service is directly related to the politics of the day, for better or worse at the time.
Jonn ran his blog how he thought best, it was his home and it was a good home to visit. Jonn has passed and others have decided to continue on in that home, but they can and they should make the home into their vision.
This is not and never has been my house, but I’ve always felt welcome here and I suspect as long as it remains I always will. The content may change slightly, but the commenters are what provide the life inside that home. And quite frankly the commenters put their stamp on the house as well, in a smaller way perhaps, but they have affect the nature of it all as well.
I like the political discussions, you know that, and I look forward to a full recovery on your part so we can get back to solving the problems of this great land.
The thing is VOV, when you discuss things of a political nature you do it without hate. To me this is qiute a talent. You make people think even if they disagree with you.
Spot on, akpual. I’ve told VOV the same thing, I thoroughly enjoy his posts because even when I disagree, he makes his points clearly and concisely, I understand it and learn from it. I try to emulate that.
We should all pay close attention to VOV when he comments–he is a businessman, an American capitalist in the finest sense of that term. He is successful in that endeavor because he thinks clearly and analytically, usually dispassionately, although he has been known to occasionally hammer his keyboard, pounding out expletives and exclamation marks.
I ALWAYS read VOV’s comments, and as he points out, not always agreeing with them; but that disagreement is usually in terms of degree rather than direction.
I have a concern that there are large elements of the veteran community that tend to eat it’s own and bash other veterans. Esp on social media. I mean it’s gotten so bad that Ranger Up has posted videos calling out these divisive and often disrespectful veterans , hell even John Burk says he thinks he helped contribute to the discord and is now focused on more positive and charitable pursuits. I think if we stuck more to issues that affect veterans like VA health and benefits , Stolen valor, changes to the military. Instead of trying to bring all veterans into the political fray which will only serve to to divide us. We can’t go and try this one size fits all approach when it comes to what a veteran believes or acts like or who they vote for. Trump is a controversial figure. Not all are gonna be on board with him or may not like him. We surely can’t expect veterans to fit into a preconceived mold it simply does not work. All we veterans have is each other We can’t expect the civilian population to understand our lifestyle based on what I’ve seen they have their own ideas of what a veteran is and it ain’t. Good or accurate a lot of the time. So the way I figure it. We can tear each other apart debating politics all the time or we can have a good healthy debate about the issues that affect us . I don’t know how many will agree with this. But I think it’s an ideal that’s worth stepping back and examining. My two cents
Hmmm. Who is trying to “trying to bring all veterans into the political fray?” You are in it whether you want to be or not. We all are. You can pretend otherwise, but it does not change realty.
Whether you tear other vets apart because they don’t agree with you is YOUR decision.
Am hoping that I am misunderstanding your comments about vets only having other vets. That just isn’t so in my world.
Thanks for the input. I’ll try and clarify. First I want to say that like others I’ve noticed a Shift in TAH taking a more political bent as of late. I couldn’t figure out why the blog felt different until the post the other day. I don’t think Jonn ever posted some much political stuff. Though he would indicate that that this blog has a conservative bent. He had a real knack for ferreting our articles that he thought were military in nature . And I’m including anything 2nd amendment. In that. So the tone of the blog has changed as of late. That being said, I gave found that most ppl who comment here engage in healthy debate it’s one of things I love about being here. You will also find that I do not believe in being inflammatory so I try to think my comments through before posting. ( though you guys ribbed me for my cop killer bullets comment. ) which I should have researched better but got a good laugh from ! Thirdly I’m really leery of political debate anywhere since it has a real possibility of going off the rails though I haven’t seen it here well maybe with exception of Lars or Yef lol . Lastly I come here to interact with my fellow vets. It’s a retreat from all the punditry I see and hear all around me . I won’t be participating in any political debates here and I’m not trying to moderate others right to say what they want. I’ve never found politics esp I our polarized environment in this country to never get a real resolution. And just seems to stress and piss people off. It was just my opinion that maybe there should be more veteran solidarity and less of things that cause such anger and stress among our brothers and sisters. Again I’m No one esp here to telling anyone what they can or cannot say or talk about it’s just an opinion that may have some merit. I hope this explains better my previous comment. And I… Read more »
Yes, that clarifies things pretty much.
One of the things about having discussions in this nameless, faceless medium is that we don’t get all the subtle and not so subtle physical signals that help us properly interpret the words that we hear. That makes it too easy to misunderstand. Most of us are mature enough to get that, so we either let things go, or ask direct questions to clear things up.
Thanks.
Meanwhile, the journey to what TAH will ultimately become continues. We all need to be patient.
NCF, you are dead wrong about Jonn and political content here at TAH. In the six years between the time Jonn welcomed me here (Knowing at the time that I was primarily a political writer, writing from a military background) and his sad, untimely death, I wrote almost exclusively in the political realm and he never spiked any of it. Jonn well understood the importance of veterans and warriors paying attention to what our political masters are up to.
Where you’re coming up with this recent increase in political postings stuff is baffling to me because it seems to me, as one of the primary political contributors here, whose input has been substantially reduced, that the reality is just the opposite.
The easy thing for those of you so adverse to politics to do, is to simply skip those articles you deem to be such. No one’s holding a gun to your head, forcing you to read it. But just because you have such disinterest in things that matter greatly to our nation and thus to our military and the veterans community is no reason to deny the rest of us the ability to review and discuss these issues of the day.
I get what your saying Poetrooper. Im not the only one who’s noticed an uptick in political articles. But I will defer to you on all things regarding Jonn and anything having to do with content descsions. Ya know it’s not that I have a disinterest toward politics it’s just not my style to get in any heated discussion anywhere about politics. I don’t think I’m alone in suffering from political burnout seems to be everywhere these days. But as I posted earlier I’m not here and would be out of line for me to moderate any speech article or discussion about anything. And as I’ve posted earlier. I won’t participate in political debates because I know where they can lead. If I have made an ill informed judgement call about Jonn or content posted here. Then please accept my humble apology. . It’s simply my opinion. And nothing more. I’m sorry to hear of your struggle with cancer. As someone who lost his father to Agent Orange related cancer It’s always hard to hear of someone dealing with it. Please know that you will be in mine and my famous prayers. I hope for a full recovery for you
We’re good, NCF, and I completely agree with you on the political saturation factor but the truth is we simply can’t ignore it. I sometimes think that is the goal of the liberal media, to simply pound us into submission, to a point where we tune out leaving their side free to expand their influence. The problem with that thought is that FOX News is just as relentlessly political as the rest of ’em.
So trust me when I say I understand your plaint; we just disagree on how to deal with it.
And I will concede that political debate can be a healthy thing if done right . I’ve often felt that I order for someone to be completely informed they need to step away from whatever echo chamber they are paying attention to and engage in a meaningful discussion with those who may or may not share the same view. Who knows ? Maybe someone might learn something new 😊🇺🇸
Poe,
You are so spot on! I’ve known and admired your excellent writings and poetry for many years. Even prior to TAH! Your work has for the most part been consistently political in nature. A prayer for your cancer receding!
Always my best.
The thing is, we as veterans should debate politics as it effects those who follow us in the military. Also, are there not active duty folks on this blog that politics effect one way or the other?
“we as veterans should…”
I respect your opinion , but that’s what is and individuals have divergent opinions.
Exactly, should have said should be allowed to debate. Hope this makes more sense.
Poe,
First, I’m glad to hear that you’re recovering, I hope it continues in a speedy and complete fashion!
Second, Excellent post, as always. I agree top to bottom, and I was surprised by some of the comments on the other post as well. I refrained from commenting (even when I noticed another poster had taken exception to comments of mine elsewhere), primarily because I am not a COMBAT vet. I was in during a quiet time, and even with that, my service was nothing to write home about, having my reserve unit shut down, and spending most of my time inactive. In that light, I decided to leave the conversation to those who have “Been there, done that”. Anyway, your post made me decide to throw in my 2c, and I thank you for that.
Be Well
Yeah, some of the comments made my wee tingle, a few made me wonder if lobotomies had come back in style.
IDC,
I’m the first to admit that when something gets me spun up, i tend to be, as my wife says, “over the top” Sometimes I do it for effect, knowing that i’m exaggerating, other times, i’m just fed up with BS, and too damn old to give a shit, and sometimes, I’m not to big to admit that I just may be wrong… But it’s always e, and I don’t BS, or pull my punches.. Love me, hate me, or a little of both, you’ll never wonder where I stand.
Now that I re-read what you wrote, maybe you were just agreeing with me that some comments in the other post were… interesting… well, either way lol..
What a well thought out and well written post Poe. My deepest thanks.
Poe,
As usual nice writing and thinking. I am one who agrees completely. Administering a veteran centric blog without political thought and news would be like driving a car without lug nuts on the wheels … it won’t work and those trying would look stupid.
Sorry to hear about your medical troubles … we just celebrated Little Christmas here and we will send the gift of prayers to you and your family during your recovery.
MCPO OUT
“Administering a veteran centric blog without political thought and news would be like driving a car without lug nuts on the wheels … it won’t work and those trying would look stupid.”
Damn all, Master Chief, I wish I’d thought of that line…
Poe,
Thank you for taking the time to post a truly enjoyable read. It was on point and should reaffirm actively serving members and veterans alike that we do not make policy but carry it out.
To add to your comments, politicians make treaties and alliances with foreign powers, determine levels of support including sharing intelligence, military technology, equipment, and training. Also politicians nominate and confirm service secretaries and the SECDEF. I would venture that if the service members were asked to have a say in these nominations/confirmations, they would go differently. Lastly, I have been researching each SECDEF and focusing on their thoughts, policies, and how they influenced the President/Administration decision making. It is interesting and thought provoking. To summarize, the President, NSA, CIA, State Dept, & Congress among others make up a hybrid dog that decides who to bite, we are just the teeth.
“To summarize, the President, NSA, CIA, State Dept, & Congress among others make up a hybrid dog that decides who to bite, we are just the teeth.”
Another great line I wish I’d thought of.
Excellent post Poe, thank you.
Excellent article Poe, and I wish you a speedy recovery! I’ve often wondered how many cancer survivors we have in this bunch. Been down that road twice, going through daily radiation for residual prostate cancer now. Won this battle twice, I ain’t going out easy.
I don’t think we can ever completely separate politics from TAH. Elected officials set policy, the military steps in when policies and diplomacy fail. We’re Teddy’s “Big Stick”. Outside of election time, we don’t always have that big a say in how that stick is wielded.
I would absolutely hate to see TAH become totally political. This merry band of miscreants share a bond that transcends just politics. It also seems that what we refer to as “milblogs” are fading away. I started out reading Greyeagle, Castle Aaaargh, Blackfive, and I think I discovered TAH through a link from the late great Lex. We might be the last stand of the milblog as we know it. You folks running TAH after we lost Jonn are doing great and I know you carry a heavy burden. My hat is off to you all. My service was worth all the sweat and sacrifice it required and I’d do it again. Many of you served in far more difficult times and circumstances, and I salute you all. I view you all as friends, mentors, and comrades.
SFC D, there are I know several of us fighting various cancers – WW and I having various forms of prostate cancer (I’m not really sure I should count – I have cancer, but it’s not likely to ever require treatment.) I guess it is inevitable given the age ranges of the community.
I concur with your sentiments, as well.
GB, I suppose it comes with most of us being “men of a certain age”. Aging ain’t for pussies!
Can I still say that?
It’s also sadly, not for everyone…
Aging is a privilege not granted to everyone, something I try and remember every day as I progress into less and less available time versus what I’ve burned behind me.
Better men than I have not been granted that privilege.
In terms of political debate – I believe the one thing sorely lacking is people that engage in professional discourse and strive to be respectful and make solid points backed up by data.
I often encourage people to look at a debate of different views as a challenge – one where they can apply themselves to being influential in their positions.
More often than not, people get lazy IMHO and start with the name calling and flippant remarks and that starts the inevitable cascade into a bad, waste of time situation.
It is different here because I think the desire to be part of a group keeps people in check. This also explains the “sniper” posts that surface on occasion – they care little about being part of the group.
Nice post, Poe.
Poe: well written, sir.
Whether we like it or not, politics impacts every aspect of our lives. Ignoring politics is like ignoring the alligator in the swimming pool, sooner or later it’ll bite you.
Attributed to Pericles (c. 495 – 429 BC)
Good, well-written post.
I do not have an issue discussing politics on occasion, but it is becoming the primary objective of this blog.
And that is a problem.
You can’t divorce any aspects of the military and national security from partisan and cultural politics. Whether it’s military readiness, overseas contingencies, personnel policies, or veterans issues, they’re all wrapped up with politics in one very messy and very gooey ball of wax. TAH cannot avoid tackling partisan, social, or cultural political issues when discussing military, national security, or veterans issues. Thus the importance of mutual respect and civility when engaged in discussions and debates here.
As always, Poe, you are erudite and cogent in your written word. Very Best on your continued recovery…
You might wish to compare and contrast what happened after the last Confederate invasion of the North in the Civil War. Jubal Early came within an ace of capturing Washington.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/for-gen-jubal-early-a-raid-north-nearly-led-to-the-capture-of-washington/2014/04/23/bb5b8fe4-c961-11e3-
But the Union didn’t immediately try to disengage or whatever from the war with the Confederacy.
Yet even though North Vietnam got its nuts handed to it after Tet, the result was a political victory for them. Quite a contrast.
I blame Cronkite.
+1
Ditto. I knew the war was lost when the media decided they were with the war protesters and wanted to take down Nixon and his administration. The end of the war in the RVN was just another example of the D-rats determination to replace a potential victory with a defeat for this nation. But compared to this current crop of D-rat “socialists,” those pols of yore look like righteous statesmen. At least those Democrat politicians thought what they were doing was for the benefit of our nation and citizens, not for the benefit of third world scum and the destruction of our Republic.
Well stated, Poe!
Get well – I miss your presence here.
Without getting all touchy-feely about it, it seems to me TAH is going through what amounts to an identity crisis. What has been its focus was something defined by Jonn who had a unique voice and the ability to address a range of topics while still staying within the milblog lane. Daily feelgood stories, as one example, aren’t strictly military but relate to the 2nd Amendment which is relevant to individual defense. Although there are those among the TAH readership who might be annoyed to hear it, Jonn’s weblog falls under a much larger canopy of journalism and news media. In my own view, the reason it exists is to act as an alternative to mainstream media which routinely fails to reflect the interests and views of the active service and veteran community. Still, just because TAH is very much not MSM, that doesn’t mean it can’t use some of the tools which have become standard in the news business in general. One of the things to consider, for example, is the concept of the news “hook.” Normally, items are supposed to get pushed to a front page because of timeliness, importance, or proximity. In the business of local news, proximity means geography; for a topic-oriented weblog such as TAH, it more often means things relate to the “lane” of reader interests as it applies to topic focus. Stolen valor stories and feelgood stories are valid choices, for example; stories about apartment rentals in Prague are probably not. On-This-Day types of historical items might qualify for a timeliness news hook, but random military historical items probably don’t. Another consideration is a matter of topic balance. There are some good reasons why TAH should probably not devote itself to strictly SV items. The most important reason being that the content will ebb and flow. So the trick becomes how to wander away from the SV topic, maybe provide some variety, and still remain under a milblog canopy. It should also be mentioned that there are no firm rules about how to do this, and it would probably be a mistake to… Read more »
Perry, as usual, you are spot on in your analysis. Jonn knew that Stolen Valor has a very limited appeal and audience–hell, even a large segment of the veterans community, such as the various veterans service organizations, don’t really get that exercised about it even when it’s discovered in their ranks. And the civilian sector at large sure as hell doesn’t care a whit about Stolen Valor.
A sure way to put this site into a death spiral is to limit its focus to SV and purely “Veterans” issues. Look how many milblogs have failed–TAH is one of few remaining and that’s due to a loyal concentration of followers who aren’t here just for SV content.
“the civilian sector at large sure as hell doesn’t care a whit about Stolen Valor”
Ain’t that the truth.
Right on, Poe. IIRC, Blackfive decided his blog couldn’t post anything that was the least bit political, and now that site is reduced to doing nothing but book reports. I quite reading it after that transition. I hope this blog is not headed in the same direction. For many of us, our military service has substantially formed our values and political views. If the admins want to muzzle those in some PC fashion, this blog will likely become as boring as Blackfive.
As usual, very well done, Poetrooper. I’ve tried to keep with your postings @ Thinker as well as here. Wouldn’t have found out about you and your editorial skill if it hadn’t been for 1stCavRVN, OWB and a few others I’ve long since forgotten about.
Prayers up and out for a speedy and successful recovery.
Busy day, so very late to this post.
Illustrative of Poet’s missive, earlier today I struck up a conversation with a guy wearing a patriotic hat next to me at the gas pump. It was established we both did Nam. After quickly exchanging the who, what, where and when, the conversation turned to how the politicians threw away our sacrifices. This went on until other cars arriving forced us to quit. The politics of war are deeply entwined in a soldier’s experience. To avoid the politics is to bury one’s head in the sand. Thus Poe is correct.
Many of us who paid the price for our politicians’ decisions are acutely aware of the political ramifications that are imposed on our troops. I have no problem with the politics seen on TAH because it generally relates to the effects on our troops. I for one do not wish to see today’s troops put through the same military bashing we endured, nor the treasonous dismissal of our sacrifices.
TAH gives me a respectful forum for when I choose to post. That is all I ask and it is a huge credit to the members who come here.
My thoughts and prayers are with you Poe as you recover.
right on target!