Enlisted MOH recipients and POWs denied full military honors at Arlington?

| September 17, 2018

I am honestly dismayed by this policy.  Flabbergasted,  should full military honors for these veterans not be the only and obvious choice?

A House bill seeks to afford enlisted Medal of Honor recipients and former Prisoners of War the right to be buried with full military honors at Arlington National Cemetery.

Those honors, which include an escort and horse-drawn caisson, are currently reserved only for officers and servicemembers killed in action.

One would think this would be corrected by Congress with unanimous support in short order.

The Full Military Honors Act of 2018 was introduced to the House Armed Services Committee on Sept. 7 by Rep. Mike Bishop, R-Mich.; Sam Johnson, R-Texas; and Tim Walz, D-Minn. The congressmen are working to bring the legislation before the full chamber this fall.

“Medal of Honor recipients and POWs have earned and deserve nothing less than full military honors,” Walz said in a statement. “As a retired enlisted soldier of 24 years, I’m proud to join in introducing the Full Military Honors Act. To help ensure we honor the sacrifices these heroes and their families have made for our country, we must pass it without delay.”

I realize Congress has its hands full investigating investigators of ongoing investigations, but honestly… this should not require any significant thought.  You can read the entire article HERE. 

 

 

Category: Dumbass Bullshit, Military issues

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Ex-PH2

Had no idea that they were NOT eligible for the full honors. That is disgraceful and should be remedied yesterday, not when someone gets around to it. I hope these Congressmen succeed in their endeavor.

FuzeVT

Indeed! I would never have guessed they don’t qualify under the current set of rules.

Jus Bill

I had no idea that this was not already the case. WAKE UP, CONGRESSCRITTERS!

desert

Negative, congress people only “endeavor to persevere”…..SOMETIME! lol

NHSparky

I would hope those who claim POW status would be vetted first, given the plethora of phonies claiming to have been such.

Hondo

Bingo.

I have no problem with anyone awarded the MoH receiving full military honors. The truth of such a claim is easily enough verified, and there are few enough of them that the resources that exist today are probably adequate to support that.

I have two concerns about extending this to former POWs. First: where are the resources going to come from? There are a helluva lot more legit former POWs than MoH awardees. If even 1/4 choose to be buried at Arlington, well, then that’s probably an issue. If Congress doesn’t add $$$ to DoD’s budget to cover that, it could affect readiness.

Second: who determines the legitimacy of “former POW” claims with respect to full honors at Arlington? The Stars and Stripes article reads as follows concerning POWs:

There were 5,071 former POWS living in the United States as of August 2017, according to the Department of Veterans Affairs. However, this number includes only those in the VA system.

Before he passed, Jonn on numerous occasion documented the fact that the VA “recognizes” nearly twice as many Vietnam “former POWs” as actually are still living – and roughly 10x as many “former Gulf War POWs” than were actually taken into Iraqi custody during that war. If the VA’s records are going to be used to determine “former POW status” – well, the VA has repeatedly demonstrated that they’re institutionally incompetent to do that. They “blow it” (e.g., get conned) roughly 50% of the time.

If the VA’s records are to be used to determine “former POW” status, I have a BIG problem with this law. The VA’s records in that area are pure crap, and for Vietnam and later are less than 50% accurate.

If DoD makes the “former POW” call, I have no such problem.

Hondo

Addendum: found the text of the proposed bill:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/6734/text#

The law specifically requires award of the POW Medal, not just VA recognition as a “former POW”, to be eligible for FMH burial at Arlington if not otherwise eligible. That partially alleviates my concerns – but I’d still bet long odds that we’ll see some number of forged/altered DD214s used to try and game the system if this law passes. And where the resources will come from to actually do this if the law passes are still a concern.

Hopefully the Army (which runs Arlington) will have a decent system in place for independent verification of MoH and former POW claims. They should – they’ll have plenty of time (there’s currently a multi-month backlog for FMH funerals at Arlington), and we’re talking about consuming a fair number of additional (and scarce) resources needed for each additional FMH funeral.

Kenneth Budd

But not Bergdahl

Fm2176

Hard to believe, but ten years ago there were no Full Honors funerals for enlisted, even those KIA. A TOG Soldier that was briefly in my Fire Team, Joseph Hernandez, was the first enlisted to receive Full Honors in 2009. He had been Firing Party on a number of active duty funerals I was NCOIC or Casket Team Leader for. He now rests in Section 60, not far from those we rendered final honors for years ago, and quite close to a few other former Old Guard Soldiers.

chooee lee

I would just like to say that my father Sgt William J Cannady was buried with full military honors in 1973.http://arlingtoncemetery.net/aircrew-08071945.htm

Fm2176

I’m sorry for your loss. Group burials have always been based on the rank of the senior personnel. CPL Hernandez was the first enlisted Soldier to receive the standard Full Honors ceremony with Caisson.

Jon The Mechanic

Part of the issue is that there are not enough personnel assigned to the Old Guard to fill the needs of Arlington.

I would say that the easiest solution would be to cut a couple of flag officers (and their associated staff) at the Puzzle Palace, and reassign those slots to the Old Guard to give them the personnel needed for their mission.

Comm Center Rat

I agree with you JTM. The Old Guard probably needs authorization for another battalion to keep up with providing full military honors for the current backlog and future deaths.

5th/77thFA

While we cutting flag officers and staff, do a little carving on congress critters and staff also. On second thought, do a LOT of carving on congress critters and staff. How many are millionaires? A bunch. How many were millionaires before? Not too many. Bet we could pay for a buncha Full Military Honors Services on those savings.

Fm2176

When I was here a decade ago, we generally had companies capable of meeting the needs of missions. A few Standard Honors missions might have been passed to the backup company, and fillers might have been requested for 2 platoon Escort missions, but we generally ran Escort, a Full Honors team for both Firing Party and Caskets, and two Standard Honors teams for each of the latter. The Standards teams could fill in for Escort most days.

Since getting back, manning has been a thorn in the side. I’m the Escort PSG, and I’ve only had the manpower to provide the Colors team and at most eight marchers (12 able bodied Soldiers total), relying on the other platoons and the backup company for the other 10+. My platoon is undermanned, but still has to provide details for other things that take away from our available strength. Factor in a few Soldiers who are perpetually on profile, and you can imagine the struggle.

It doesn’t help that the Regiment went from six companies that conduct funerals down to four. When I first served here, the line companies all belonged to 1st Battalion. 4th Battalion was stood up just before I left, but the two Infantry companies there (Alpha and Echo) no longer do Memorial Affairs missions. Heck, years ago even the MPs did funerals.

OWB

This is truly nuts. You need a law to make it happen? Nobody can figure out the right thing to do and just do it??

David

THIS!!!!!!

2/17 Air Cav

Your point, OWB, is a good one but doing the right thing isn’t anything new. In other words, why wasn’t it the right thing to do when the restrictive laws were first enacted? I’ll try to check it out, but I’m guessing that class distinctions between officers and enlisted were once so pronounced that even an EM CMOH recipient or former POW couldn’t break through the class barrier. Distinctions by class weren’t the only distinctions made by the government when it came to military cemeteries and ceremonies. Until 1948 and Truman’s desegregation order, Arlington buried white and black servicemen in separate areas. Today, that strikes decent people as bizarre. Imagine you want to visit a black CMOH recipient’s grave at Arlington in the days before the electronic locater system. One of the questions must have been, “Was he white or colored?”

Hondo

I don’t think it was ever a matter of class as much as it was resources, 2/17.

A typical military funeral requires on the order of 10 people – firing party, bugler, Chaplain, detail OIC/NCOIC. FMH ups the ante considerably.

The picture above shows only part of the additional personnel required for FMH – the caisson riders and escorts – and that adds another 12. It doesn’t show the band; even a small band would add 10-12 additional troops. Going from routine to FMH thus at least triples the manpower required.

The Old Guard is strapped as it is. They’d need more people, and more horses/caissons and facilities for same, to give everyone a FMH sendoff. As it is, FMH funerals are backlogged several months (I think the article said 7-9) at Arlington due to a shortage of caissons. And adding of all of the above more equates to $$$$$.

In a perfect world, every honorably-discharged veteran would get a FMH funeral. But doing that would be expensive as hell – and would cut into funding needed for readiness, housing, etc . . . .

I’m guessing that was the primary reason for the original “breakpoint” between FMH and routine military funerals at Arlington. There’s only so many troops in The Old Guard.

NHSparky

Meh, I don’t want or need FMH.

I’m preapproved for the state veterans cemetery at home.

Say a few words, throw some dirt on my head, then hit the bar and get silly-drunk.

That’s all I want or expect.

2/17 Air Cav

Pre-approved? I was unaware of that. I checked it out and a Veteran can be approved for burial in a national cemetery or can separately apply to his state if the state itself maintains a Veterans cemetery. One doesn’t cover both. Thanks for that, man. I’m gettin’ on it.

2/17 Air Cav

Here’s the Federal form for anyone else who is interested in taking care of this before it’s needed and your spouse can’t find the DD214 or the funeral parlor screws something up!
https://www.va.gov/vaforms/va/pdf/VA40-10007.pdf

2/17 Air Cav

Anyone know how my carcass gets from point A to a cemetery 100 miles away? As long as it’s not by Uber, I’m good. Is this a per mile thing by contract with the funeral home? I have no idea.

Ex-PH2

I don’t know how the military or VA does it but my mother spent her last years in Freeport, IL and wanted to be buried in the same cemetery as my father, next to him, 250 miles south near Decatur. How was it done? By trucking her casket down there. I’d imagine the same thing goes on with VA burials, but you’d better put in writing what you want done.

AW1Ed

Funeral directors take care of this all the time.

Mom passed here in Southern Maryland, and was interred in the family plot in Wheeling, West Virginia.

2/17 Air Cav

Thanks X 2. I don’t mind being FedEx’ed—but my wife might.

2/17 Air Cav

Yes, I appreciate that the logistics and supply are a problem, but where the line was drawn is my issue. In other words, given scarce resources, why draw the line at EM/O rather than any number of other places? For instance, even a lottery would be more equitable. Another possibility is to use existing resources more wisely by eliminating the entitlements accorded those general/flag officers who get the whole meghilla by virtue only of their lofty station.

Hondo

Well, the fact that historically there have been 10x as many enlisted troops vice officers might have something to do with that, 2/17. Along with the fact that the military is quite rank conscious – and also conscious of the perks (and responsibilities) that go with same. The military is also institutionally quite respectful of its traditions; historical precedent is quite important.

My guess all three of those were factors in the original decision regarding who got FMH at Arlington. Restricting FMH to officer personnel cuts the resource requirement by 90+% right off the top – plus, it provides a final “perk” based on rank. And I’d be willing to bet that it also has some historical precedent, though I’m not going to take the time to research that point.

Besides: expecting fairness and equal treatment from a rank-conscious organization like the military is like expecting everyone to always be accurate in doing their taxes. It’s a laudable ideal – but it’s not the way I’d bet. RHIP is too firmly ingrained, and the military ain’t a democracy. (smile)

timactual

Not to mention the traffic congestion. Particularly if they still allow non-military traffic. Those roads through the cemetery are not very wide.

rgr769

And, unless it has recently changed, there is only one Caisson Platoon. I doubt it has the ability to do more than two FMH funerals at a time.

Dwight Schwarz

That is one of the least of the problems that I have seen occur here. A Korean Pow as well as being, at the time, the most decorated Veteran in the area here passed away here several years ago. His family past and present) had him cremated and then abandoned his remains at the funeral home (nope did not even pay bill). The Legion here finally stepped in and was able to recover his remains and after a year was able to get them interred at Arlington. His remains were transferred from reps from Legion to rep from D.C. at airport and were buried at Arlington and Flag was sent back, am not sure if any military Vets from here were there but none of family was there for service. Course the family (alcoholic and druggies) wanted the flag, it was placed in safe keeping here and family received symbolic flag. Knowing the Govt and VA, the family probably still receive his benefits.

Doc (FMF)

They should move POW’s up the eligibility list.

They should also cut from the eligibility list elected officials, children, parents,Supreme Court Justices,Executives of the Federal Government, US Trade Representatives, cabinet members, etc.

Club Manager, USA ret.

WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN NOW IS EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU MUST CONTACT YOUR U.S. REPRESENTATIVE AND SENATOR AND ASK THEM TO SUPPORT The Full Military Honors Act of 2018 and sign on as a co-sponsor. This is an election year so go for it and quickly please.

Luddite4change

I’m perplexed, MOH, Service Cross, Silver Star and PH recipients are already authorized in ground burial with all the bell and whistles, as are POWs. The info in on the website.

https://www.arlingtoncemetery.mil/Funerals/Scheduling-a-Funeral/Establishing-Eligibility/Ground-Burial

Select the Fact Sheet.

One of my work associates was recently the casualty assistance officer for a recently deceased senior officer. Arlington is so backed up that this deceased officers burial is in February. I’m not sure I support changing Arlington’s policy that all deceased are equal in death and get to wait in line.

2/17 Air Cav

I think I see the source of your angst. The issue isn’t burial eligibility but military honors v. full military honors. If I am mistaken, let me know where, in the document you sourced, is the distinction made and eligibility listed for full military honors.

luddite4change

I believe you are correct, the nuance was lost. I think the full honors for the MOH/Service Cross members is an easy call. I’m a little less sure with regard to former POWs.

rgr769

I am down with MOH recipients getting the FMH funeral at Arlington. But POW’s were simply in the wrong space at the wrong time like most of those getting the PH. Those of us that got shot at in combat are glad the enemy missed because we didn’t happen to occupy that space at the time the projectile passed through it. There is nothing particularly heroic about surviving enemy captivity. I don’t think Jessica Lynch thinks she is a hero because she was captured by he Iraqi’s. Then we have the problem of all the phony POW’s. Seems like this legislation is a bad idea. Anyone think Wilted Willie’s brother warrants a FMH funeral?