Mad Dog wants more UCMJ
Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis has issued new guidance to commanders across the military: Stop relying on administrative actions for discplinary problems and start using the military justice system more often.
In the new memo dated Aug. 13, Mattis calls the military justice system a “powerful tool” for good order and discipline, and he says flatly it is a “commander’s duty to use it.”
“Military leaders must not interfere with individual cases, but fairness to the accused does not prevent military officers from appropriately condemning and eradicating malignant behavior from our ranks,” Mattis wrote, according to a copy of the memo that was obtained by Military Times.
Ok, but I do not think we are going to turn the hands of time backwards. There was a time when service members could have 5 NJP’s and still make SNCO. If they are going to start using UCMJ charges at the drop of a hat, I hope they also reward merit.
“Leaders must be willing to choose the harder right over the easier wrong. Administrative actions should not be the default method to address illicit conduct simply because it is less burdensome than the military justice system. Leaders cannot be so risk-adverse that they lose their focus on forging disciplined troops ready to ferociously and ethically defeat our enemies in the battlefield.”
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I always thought a decline in punishment was a good thing. Not sure I am with the Warrior Monk on all of this.
“If a subordinate makes a mistake, leaders should learn to coach them better,” he writes. “But we must not tolerate or ignore lapses in discipline, for our enemies will benefit if we do not correct and appropriately punish substandard conduct. Time, inconvenience, or administrative burdens are no excuse for allowing substandard conduct to persist.”
The UCMJ is a tool, no doubt. I never wrote one charge sheet my entire career. There are a bunch of Marines on my FB list that will tell you they wish I had instead of… Never met a Platoon Sgt that earned the respect of his men by using a pencil to whip them.
I am always concerned about booting good warriors to the curb because they like to mix it up. This fantasy of having killers that mind their manners 24/7 is a joke. My concern with those graphs is that we are getting too soft and mild mannered. I earned every one of my NJP’s, all for drinking and fighting with a dose of telling someone to go phuck themselves. I also went from being a Cpl to a SSgt in 6 months. If we are going to start taking rank away quickly, we better not boot the scrappers to the curb unless we are only going to war in the powder puff league.
The entire article is HERE
Category: Military issues
Cop pulls you over for speeding.
You admit it. He gives you a warning instead of a ticket. You go right back to speeding.
Cop pulls you over for speeding. You deny it.
He gives you a ticket. You go right back to speeding.
In both cases the cop did his job.
Save the UCMJ for the second case and leave the first up to local discretion.
in both cases, NJP was used in this example. Once we get to incident 3, 4, etc, it becomes time for judicial action.
The point of NJP is to correct actual misconduct. Failing a PT test is not misconduct. Getting a DUI is.
The gray area comes with things like being late to formation/work. When does it stop being a “learn to be on time” coaching issue and become a misconduct issue? The answer determines whether we counsel, do push ups, or lose some pay and rank.
Lack of NJP means that barracks thieves often go unpunished (not kidding here).
However, the real problem is lax discipline in the basics of soldiering. Little things like making sure that the barracks are clean, safe, and managed are not attended to with sufficient attention to detail. We all know that if the little things are allowed to slide the big things will happen.
That is what SECDEF is after here. Attention to detail, commitment to discipline and adherence to standards. NJP is truly the most effective tool in existence for those things.
Agreed. While I grew through the ranks while living in the barracks, NCOs were supposed to keep people in line and set things straight with malcontents. Anyone who mouthed off or refused to follow instructions had their name and circumstances of why jotted down in the duty log so the 1stSgt could find out the next morning.
Fast forward years later, in some units you hear stories of NCOs wanting to be everyone’s friend and not enforcing discipline and customs.
1stSgt learns about them too, and it typically never goes well for anyone.
Okay, well, define “malignant behavior”.
Is it sexual harassment/abuse or two silly bitches not speaking to each other while they’re on Com duty in CIC and a container ship bumps into their ship?
There are many other examples that have appeared right here on TAH, that were at a visible level but there are those less visible that never get brought up here.
I had to push for UCMJ once in my career…there are options to consider before going straight to the big hammer.
Physical discipline.
Cpl to SSGT in 6 months?!? Were you on the Drill field?
HAHAHA, no. USS Austin with the 24th MAU. I was busted for bouncing a SSgt Laurent off some gear lockers for fucking with my Marines. I was a Sgt selected for SSgt waiting for my number to come up.
When I pushed his ass to the railing on the ship and threatened to throw his punk ass over he pissed in his pants than ran and filled out a charge sheet.
Would I do it again…ya probably. Anyway, the MAU commander busted me to Corporal. After a couple of months deployed he realized Laurent was a pussy and probably needed pitched overboard. He reinstated his best Advance Party guy to his previous rank but held my rocker for 6 months. So, there ya go…I was a Cpl and 6 months later I was a SSgt.
REMF’s can always be found leading the rear when the shit hits the fan. Those paper hanging SOBs were around when the Greek empire was. They will always be around and they will always fear the water and what lurks in the night.
Dave:
What year were you aboard USS AUSTIN with 24th MAU?
Hmmm…I can look it up later to be exact. It was the Med deployment after Beirut. So, I will say 1985 there abouts. Capt Fred Olds was CO of the Austin. I found him to be a tough but fair man, ran an open ship so Marines were not locked below decks.
Roger all. Was asking because USS AUSTIN was with us as one of the ships in the ARG during one of my deployments, but that was a couple of years after you were aboard her. Thought that maybe you and I had been out there at the same time.
Shreveport twice, Nassau, Austin, Boulder, Ponce, Saginaw and the Iwo. All Gator Navy.
Maybe his comments are directed mostly to higher ups who tend to ignore the indiscretions of their officers while applying tougher standards to their enlisted personnel? Yeah, that’s gotta be it.
I liked to get/recommend Article 15s. Extra duty and loss of pay puts things in perspective. Frankly, having a very public Article 15 as an NCO, the dudes I did extra duty with (which sucked, some guys from my PLT), the example an NCO can make by taking their punishment, all of that to me was a great experience. All things being the same I’d do it in a heartbeat.
“Malignant behavior” was not a careless choice of words. In context of the issue, I understand that to mean that it is conduct that is continual, invasive, and deadly and that requires uprooting, not superficial treatment. The guy who has a few and tears up a barroom floor isn’t the target. It’s the guy whose conduct undercuts unit discipline and morale and is a real problem child who is dealt with softly that I think MadDog has in mind. Commanders who get the matter off their desks by a fine and a good talking (again and again w/ the same guy) are the reasons for this.
I’m of two minds on this one, and while it’s close I agree more than I disagree with Mad Dog on this one.
Too often shit bags get a pass because doing the paperwork is too hard or because command feels like it will reflect poorly upon their command style and climate if they have to take UCMJ action. This leads to bad soldiers sliding their way up through the ranks.
Administrative punishments should be reserved for good soldiers who fucked up and need a course correction (or new soldiers who don’t know any better). If they are receiving multiple/repeated administrative punishments though, they no longer fit the “good soldier” and should be hit with the fucking hammer.
Maybe I’m just getting old but my tolerance for bullshit has gone way down.
I counsel you with my expectations and you ignore that, I’ll smoke the shit out of you, fail again and I’ll counsel you again. Fuck it up a third time, I’m recommending you for UCMJ.
I know the first time I do this, the commander is going to come up with an administrative punishment, and that’s likely fine, but the fifth or sixth time I’ve got a soldier who doesn’t sow up to drill because he wasn’t feeling like it…
I’m angry. Linear thought isn’t my strong suit right now.
But you get where I’m going with this, because you are all smart, witty, and sexy as fuck.
Thank you. My coffee-lacking mental lapses are not mine alone.
Have you ever tried to NJP a Reservist before? Because I’ve pushed for it, and JAG shut it down before it ever got started, for one simple reason: PFC Shitbag might refuse his NJP and demand a court martial. And if he does that, you’ve got two choices: drop it entirely, or put him on orders while to await his trial. Which could be months. Unless it’s a high-visibility scandal (like, big enough to make the news), that is simply not going to happen. So you’re left with a choice – keep it administrative, or risk him calling your bluff and having it blow up in your face.
So frustrating.
I’ve seen that same thing happen on I-I duty.
Only saw 1 NJP actually occur on a reservist. Forfeitures of pay only came out while in a drill status, so it turned out to be a fraction of a fraction of weekend take-home pay.
The unit SJA (LtCol, also an Asst US Attorney) explained it all pretty well, but it was confusing to the admin folks.
Hmmmm … I wonder if this is the result of too much tip-toeing around race and/or gender issues by risk averse O-1,2,3s?
Considering the worthless POS running things in the last administration, I would be unsurprised.
Ditto. Someone misbehaves, gets written up, hollers XXX discrimination, and gets away with misbehaving.
This should not happen, but it does, and it isn’t just in the military. It’s also in the civilian world.
Maybe Mattis is just throwing out a reality check with his message.
Nailed it, Old Soldier 54. Seen that gender card and race card pulled a few times. Sometimes it worked, sometimes the CO crushed them harder than he would have had they not pulled the cards.
What are the time parameters to commence a NJP from the date of the incident(s)? Is it possible to use the form as a manner of a warning citation, sort of like a probation before judgment or an article of confessed judgment?
Haha, I had a 1st Sgt tell me that he could take that stripe off my sleeve just like he put it on there. B.B. “Sam” Croft was quite a character.
If Mad Dog is suggesting that we need more 1stSgt Morek and less 1stSgt Kotula…he needs to stand corrected.
Morek is an example of someone that could not lead a roll of shit paper to the head without the UCMJ. That kind of so called “leadership” is caustic to the heart of a Warrior.
SPC-8 Moerk couldn’t lead a turd down the bowl. Many commands won’t use or don’t know how to effectively use admin “punishments”. A bar to re-enlistment or flagged on favorable actions can work, but not if it isn’t applied. Commanders are scared to punish miscreants because too many higher-ups view it as a “command failure”. The true command failure is not acting to flush the turds that contaminate an otherwise great company.
Please do not bring up Moerk in my presence. Her holier-than-thou crap is not leadership. She is nothing but a meddling busybody, throwing her rank in the face of anyone she runs into. She makes me nauseous.
Who is Moerk?
Here you go, radar. Cut it, paste it, and enjoy.
https://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=57425&cpage=1
Actually, this one is earlier and both are click-able.
https://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=57351
What a blue falcon she is. Bet she was popular among her troops. 🙄
She’s hanging out in Norway and looking for work. She’s retiring w/ 22 years.
“I looked them up, introduced myself and explained to them why they were stupid.”
I find that admission incredibly funny. And not offensive to those stupid people at all.
“the coveted Army Commendation medal”
She certainly has some odd ideas.
Part of our recent military culture issues is the lack of leaders to provide clear guidance and expectations. So when things go south, it is a finger pointing exercise. Making sure your troops understand the task at hand and the end state you desire takes that away. The good Soldier/Sailor who screws up I counsel to make them better. The problem child gets all I can bring to bear. Good leadership that communicates with their troops clearly and often usually nets good results.
My three main points to the crew:
1. Be on time.
2. Be where you are supposed to be.
3. Be doing what you are assigned to do.
Cover these three things and you are off my radar. Performance above this gets awards and promotions. Lack of adherence to these three gets you a conversation with me that you are not going to enjoy.
I have written many counseling sheets and many charge sheets. Both fit the member/situation and were the right tool for the job. I have also found that telling the person how much they disappointed me got their attention more than anything else. The last arrow in the quiver is not recommending that person for retention in the military. Commanders do not use it enough but it is surprisingly effective.
I had an awesome 1SG in 1990, old school veteran of Viet of the Nam combat engineer. Laid it out from day 1:
1- You are human, you will make mistakes.
2- I will chew your ass when you make mistakes. You will learn from this, we will move on, and we will never dicuss it again. We may even laugh about it eventually.
3- If you make the same mistake again, may God have mercy on your soul.
That’s a top drawer First Shirt.
SFC D/Old Soldier54,
My father was a retired 1SG, Korea/Vietnam vet. What you said reminds me of him, he taught me well.
LtCol D, my dad, WW2/Korea/Vietnam, had a very similar philosophy and I always tried to follow it as a Soldier and an NCO. It works.
That’s part of the problem as I see it, Master Chief.
Power to correct and yes, even drop the hammer when necessary send them to mast has been taken away from senior enlisted leadership.
Ever since I was a PO1 back in the Clinton navy, the amount of paperwork required to get a dirtbag in front of the green table grew exponentially.
Couple that with a perception of the evisceration of the influence and authority of the Chief’s Mess, is it any wonder we find ourselves in this situation?
This^
Post Tailhook Navy was declawed in a way.
LPOs and CPOs were limited in how they could keep punishment at a lower level.
EMI, which was a fantastic enforcement tool, became a paper tiger.
NHSparky,
I agree with your statement. However, I have been blessed with several good O-6 CO’s in a row. We have had good relationships and understandings, and I never present a course of action without all the facts before I give my recommendation. I have had a wide latitude to keep good order and discipline. Yes, the paperwork side can get tedious, but if it is deserved I will make the time to get it done. Better to do that than let a problem child keep being a bad influence on good Sailors. For your last point, my view most leaders are lazy and just hit the easy button. My Chiefs have been directed to run their divisions as they see fit. Put a boot in someone’s ass if they need it. Once Sailors know the command backs them in dealing out discipline, the shenanigans slow way down.
My shop superintendent (E-8) laid out those rules pretty well, and was a great guy to work for.
Though he added a number;
4. Whenever anyone comes in the office, look busy. 🙂
Agreed. Unfortunately we used to document counseling, DRBs, etc. as a way of backing up a future disciplinary act. But then the bean counters got involved and we get pretty graphs like the one above. The problem with counting beans is that the Hawthorne effect kicks in when you know your beans are being counted and you change your behavior so that they only count the beans that you want counted. And here we are.
Burn’em! 😭
Shit must be getting ridiculous in the DoD. Sounds like another great Obama era gift.
On my first Art 15 I screwed up and didn’t get Snuffy to sign accepting the 15 before announcing the punishment. Gave him a slap on the wrist (filling some sandbags in Phu Bai, Viet of the Nam…which he would probably have been filling anyway since we were getting mortared a lot). Barracks lawers convinced him to reject it for a Summary. Bad idea. BN CO sent him to Long Binh Jail (LBJ). Never saw him again. Barracks lawering ended.
My favorite shop chief was also the one who was mostly likely to rip you a new one, but he didn’t believe in paperwork unless you did something truly criminal. He was truly a believer in discipline the old-fashioned way, which is why it wasn’t unusual to see someone in the field behind the detachment getting thrashed boot camp style – lunges back and forth across the field, pushups till Gunny got tired of watching you, endless squat-thrusts. I think that’s because he was an awesome Marine who took way, way too long to make rank because of some stupid, petty bullshit he was charged with early on in his career, and he had no desire to torpedo anyone else’s career that way. You fuck up, you pay the price, everyone moves on, don’t do it again. Nothing but respect for that man, as opposed to the sergeant major I had once. He hit us with a surprise health and comfort inspection one day, and a good friend of mine was burned for having a couple of beer cans in his trash basket when he was a month or two shy of 21. He was due to pin on corporal the first day of the next month, but he was busted down to private instead. It was bullshit.
Indeed what are we training here? Killers or fucking shoe shine boys?
The latter will bow and scrape and blow flavored smoke up your ass to maintain your favor…the former? Not so much.
I think Jean Larteguy was on the right track when he said; “I’d like to have two armies: one for display with lovely guns, tanks, little soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals, and dear little regimental officers who would be deeply concerned over their General’s bowel movements or their Colonel’s piles, an army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country. The other would be the real one, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display, but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That’s the army in which I should like to fight.”
I would hope we are training soldiers. To me, at least, there is a difference.
This becomes more of a problem when “hazing” and being mean to the troops is no longer allowed. Snco’s being creative can work wonders. At one time or another I had a couple idiots who got a dose of reality by being forced to repeatedly walk point, and by being out on LP all alone. Cured the bullshit right quick.
Word.
Make that pucker factor tight before you resize it.
Sends a message.
Was really blessed as middle child; saw what older sibling screw ups brought down on to them. Had a paying job very early, no good work = no pay. Good Drill Instructors, able to give either a hand or a boot up, emphasizing, learn these lessons, or come home in a CMH. Worked directly for 2 1SGs that were 3 war veterans, and one 1SG with only 11 years service, but 3 tours in the Viet. All had the same basic 4 rules as posted previously, with the addition of, Cooperation is doing things my way and being damn quick about it. Shit birds gonna shit birds and the quicker & harder you bring the hammer down, the less damage done to the overall unit. Agree with the post about the whole warm & fuzzy, race/gender/snowflake card being played over the last few years has brought this on. My $.02.
As a squad leader in the eighties and a battalion commander a couple of years ago, I’m all for this. Giving UCMJ requires leaders to actually look their guys in the eyes and provide leadership. What’s lacking from the discussion so far, in my opinion, is that the reason SECDEF wants UCMJ, in lieu of administrative procedures, is because lazy leaders just kick Joe to the curb via admin chapter proceedings because that’s easier than leading him to be better. It was a little bit necessary at the height of the wars but not now. Lead. UCMJ, when necessary, is part of leading. Separately, unfortunately we have taken a lot of pre-UCMJ tools away from leaders that were meant to stay local, in the unit, and not on paper. In the hands of good NCOs, that was also leadership.
The Corps used to have a Correctional Custody Unit where NJP recipients could win a trip and spend a few days as a form of punishment.
The ones who went and came back after 30 or so days were usually pretty locked on again and became better Marines. Others…not so much.
IMO the program worked but the Corps scrubbed that form of punishment years ago.
Iv’e been out for a minute. Of course it was always “old school” to give second chances, however I recently had a chance to talk to my Niece’s husband who is an active duty sgt.
He said ( at least in his command) there is an appalling lack of discipline because unit members know that all they are going to get is counselings.
After a while they become a joke.
If you have a shitbag that has been counseled for being UA from duty 5 times in three months its time to drop the hammer.
JAOD,
Part of the problem the military has is conflicting goals. You can’t win the “coveted” retention award if you are kicking out the shitbags. So which way do you go? Keep them and look good on paper or do the right thing and drop the hammer? Most choose the former. Plus they are scared of being down manpower to get the work done, not realizing these problem children are doing nothing and just causing more work.
Don’t get me started on command climate surveys. They are the cowards way of talking crap about a command, saying things they don’t have the backbone to say directly to the leadership. The good Sailors usually are too busy to respond, only the dirtbags (I mean performance challenged) give comments.
Totally off thread, but I had to tell everybody about this. It’s a real thing, it’s not the Duffel Blog. It is to weep.
https://www.urbanoutfitters.com/shop/rotcho-reflective-physical-training-belt?cacheBuster=1534451343128&category=mens-belts&color=072
$30? Yikes.
I’d just start looking about 50 feet out of any main gate for some cast offs.
OH. MY. LORD!!
So they DID go to Surplus. I wondered about that.
In days of yore while I was deployed aboard ship, the Navy and Marine COs used to wait to hold NJP until the ship was away from the pier and underway. That’s because Sailors and Marines can’t refuse NJP and request court-martial while they’re attached to or embarked in a ship.
http://www.jag.navy.mil/library/instructions/JAGMAN2012.pdf
‘0108 LIMITATIONS ON INITIATION OF ARTICLE 15, UCMJ, PROCEEDINGS
a. Right to demand trial. A person in the Navy or Marine Corps who is not attached to or embarked in a vessel has the right to demand trial by court-martial in lieu of nonjudicial punishment. A person in the armed forces who is attached to or embarked in a vessel does not have the right to demand trial by court-martial.’
However, USN/USMC COs at sea can no longer impose the NJP punishment of confinement in the ship’s brig on bread and water, but they can still award confinement in the brig for three days.
https://www.hqmc.marines.mil/Portals/135/Docs/JAM/Practice%20Advisory%202-17%20-%20FY17%20NDAA,%20with%20Enclosure%20(List%20of%20Punitive%20Articles).pdf
‘Nonjudicial punishment (Article 15). Eliminates the authority to impose confinement on bread and water as punishment; may still impose confinement for not more than three days. Section 5141.’
As any of the Marines and Sailors here at TAH who have seen someone coming off of three days confinement in the brig on bread and water can attest, it was a harsh punishment. All the bread and water that one wanted, and there was a Bible to read. That was it for 72 hours. It quickly turned defiant ‘tough guys’ into compliant, obedient Marines and Sailors.
No one ever wanted an ‘encore performance’ of being thrown in the brig for three days on bread and water.
A BIBLE?!! You cruel heartless bastards! You violated his rights under… um… something!
As a commander, I gave 6-7 ART-15s. Should have been more, but the BN CDR and the BDE CDR were worried about climate and survey’s. They were not wrong, but commanders (CO-BDE) have been extorted by the E4 mafia. Millinials are a real pain in the ass. Not all of them, I had some outstanding Young’s troopers, but most of them are a bunch of crying little bitches, and NJPs drive down climate surveys, and that can cause career problems for commanders.
YMMV
I know when I was in the military needed a whistleblower program because of all the corrupt NCOs.
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1969
Ft. Benning
The Platoon leader walked into the bay to wake the platoon, saying “Rise and shine” and other encouragements. As he walked down the line of bunks he also shook the bunks to encourage wakefulness. At one bunk, a booted foot stuck out from beneath the sheet and, still vocalizing, the 1st Lt. grabbed the booted foot and shook it. In a loud, clear, voice the boot replied “Touch me again, MF, and I’ll cut you!”.
The booted individual was a bad sort who later went to jail for some other incident. There was no doubt in my mind that he would have backed up his words with action.
What to do?
Ask him if he understands to whom he is speaking, if he does, take him to the smoke pit. Two man enter, one man leaves.
No witnesses, no weapons, just two men bearing the sh*t out of each other.
The way it should be.
An officer and an enlisted man? And what happens when the enlisted man wins? Who runs the platoon afterwards?