53 Percent of Employers said Veterans do not have successful careers after the Military.
We take anything published in a Military Times article with a bit of skepticism, but this one is worth discussion.
More than half of veterans struggle to find work in their desired fields after leaving the military because civilian employers want experienced and educated candidates ? and often don’t realize veterans qualify, a new survey finds.
Only 17 percent of employers say veterans are viewed as strategic assets in the workplace, according to the survey, released this week by the marketing firm Edelman. And despite the large majority of veteran respondents saying they have education beyond a high school diploma, 46 percent of employers believe veterans do not pursue a college degree or vocational training.
I have lost count of how many times some civilian said to me, “I was going to join the military but I got into college.” That makes me twitch a knife hand and visions of throat punching dance through my mind. Back in the 70’s and 80’s a lot of veterans never mentioned their service on employment applications. The past election just beat this false narrative of “uneducated” voters to death.
This concept that people remain “uneducated” if they don’t choose to run up 6 digits of debt to get on with life is nonsense. I doubt there is a single person attending Evergreen that could re-assemble a transmission. I am simply tired of people who weld, pour concrete, re-build engines, do roofing, and on and on being referred to as “uneducated.” I put more trust in the guy who installed my septic tank than I do any person with a degree in Gender Studies.
For example, 53 percent of employers surveyed said veterans do not have successful careers after the military. Yet federal employment figures show veterans reached a record-low unemployment rate in 2017 ? 3.7 percent, compared to 4.2 percent for nonveterans ? and other statistics show veterans have higher salaries and advance more quickly in their jobs, Schmeling pointed out.
Gee… I wonder why they would think such a thing. With all the posturing going on these days and military service seen as some form of disability, it’s shocking the number is only 53 percent.
Military spouses also encountered challenges and wished the government would do more to advocate for them, according to the study. Sixty-eight percent of employers said they did not offer options for flexible schedules or remote work that military spouses could benefit from, and many admitted their companies do not understand the value that military spouses have to offer in the workforce.
How could employers not understand the value of Dependapotami ? A quick daytime drive around base housing will educate even the most dull-witted. (Ok, let’s not dance on the keyboard sending what I call “recreational outrage,” I am just being sarcastic by using some false stereotypes… kinda false, ok maybe a little truth to it.)
The study found one way to bridge the civilian-military divide in the workforce could be through internship and apprenticeship programs, particularly in the information technology and trades fields. Both employers and veterans see this as an opportunity for vets to gain the technical and soft skills that employers want.
I didn’t even have to strain my elusive GED to come to that conclusion. I need to tap into some of this “Study Money.” Maybe if we weren’t all victims of military service or “got into college” instead of pissing our time away defending this nation, employers would have a higher opinion of us.
Category: Politics
My ex’s current husband once told me that if I had been a real man, that I’d have got out of the Navy and gotten a real job so that I’d be around for my kids.
I invited him to the VFW so that he could repeat that statement in front of everyone there and that I’d even buy his drinks afterwards. He has yet to take me up on that offer.
P.S. He mows lawns for a living, err, owns a landscaping business.
Ah, yes……there’s a real man.
I would love to be a fly on a wall to hear someone say that to Mrs Savage. ( Army Nurse, 12 years)
I’ll bring the popcorn and lawnchairs for that event.
It would be over before he knew it started then SHE would have to send a hour or more switching him up. On the serious side most employers that never served have no idea what a great asset to their company just walked in. Joe
Yes but most of those employers are college grads, brainwashed by the communist system set up by the NEA and do not think anything military is worth talking to! They will get a sudden education when the shyt hits the fan and IT WILL!
I’ll even buy him the plastic straw he’ll no doubt need due to his jaw being wired shut.
He’d starve in San Fransisco- plastic straws are outlawed.
Dirty syringes are fine, just don’t get caught with a soda straw.
This is how the liberal mind works.
Funny part is, this time Seattle beat San Francisco to the Stoopid by a month or two.
If you’d have been in the Army, you could mow dirt lawns and paint the occasional rock for the First Sergeant and probably get paid more as an E1 than he gets paid as a “landscaper”.
“Mow and Blow”–now there is a career field for which one should aspire. One of my motorcycle friends who also never served has this impressive business; he was a bartender before he rose to this occupational height, which he hates.
Did he keep his worthless mouth shut after that?
The up side to this disinformation campaign is that the companies that know better benefit from their veteran employees at the expense of those who prefer to hide from reality. Seems appropriate.
Honestly, I don’t know where the data these “journalists” use comes from.
I think they pull butt nuggets out and write about them sometimes.
Back when I started at the PD, one of my training officers addressed the ‘trend’ of hiring college students/grads. His opinion of that breed of officer? Educated fucking idiots.
In a majority of cases, he was correct.
People with no life experience after high school other than college usually have zero common sense. This is especially true in regard to those who have graduated in the past 30 to 40n years.
Come on, rgr, everyone knows that panty raids and wearing a sheet for outerware during fraternity pledging is so enlightening.
Look at all of the limp dicks that Jimmy Cahtah pardoned, and the current crop that needs safe spaces and time outs.
Agreed, but the trouble was back when, that the cities and counties were brainwashed into thinking the college pukes were preferable..but that little nugget of misinformation soon bit the dust when these educated morons started screwing up, getting people hurt the the agencies sued!
Spoken as a former police officer !!!
The phenomenon of abundant ignorance.
It bugs the heck out of me when a journalist doesn’t bother to hyperlink the report that they are citing.
Found here: https://www.edelman.com/sites/default/files/2018-07/2018-Edelman-Veterans-Well-being-Survey.pdf
The journalist also skipped over the most positive finding on pg. 6. Entrepreneurship is huge among veterans. Running about 3x that of the broader population. In general, veterans are “pre-screened” for busting their butt for long hours and overcoming obstacles.
I’ve been in the medical device start-up community since ’99 and I’m currently working in an incubator where there is a veterans business outreach center. The director there is great. I’m also working on a website focused on Nukes with authors who have become entrepreneurs or who work in business development, and who are interested in sharing their experiences.
I did the same thing as you, preferring to go directly to the horse’s mouth (the Edelman survey) rather than the horse’s ass (the Mil Times.) And Mil Times played hide-the-ball by not providing a link to Edelman. The thing is, the survey of opinion speaks more to the impressions employers have formed about Veterans and that’s about it. In turn, the impression employers have about those who went the college route exclusively is also a factor. What’s that mean? Only that the PR is strong for one and weak for the other.
Even the so-called military newspapers are anti-military. There journo-progs are nothing but journo-degreed propagandists. Most of them also never served in the military. The only reason they sometimes report favorably on our services is because the people that run these rags know they wouldn’t have much subscription and ad revenue if they bashed the service of their primary readers all the time.
The field I work in, and some of the projects that I am directly working on, is frequently the subject of articles in the “defense industry” rags. At least once a quarter I’m asking my boss (or someone else in the office), “Did you *really* say this in an interview??”. Invariably, everything is quoted out of context and background information is completely wrong.
This is why I never, ever talk to anyone in “the press”.
I also got out in the late 1990s, and while I had a few folks tell me they had nothing to do with nuclear (despite emphasizing my electical/electronics and leadership skills that just so happened to be used in a nuke plant), most who knew a nuke were quick to at least talk to me.
In fact, in the nearly 20 years since, I’ve been out of work for a grand total of about a month. And I’ll put my W2 up against any reporter at Military Times.
As you showed, our field is a stepping stone, not something we get locked into. Sure, I’ve done my time at a nuke plant, as have others, but not as an operator. Most of the former nukes I’ve encountered stayed far away from the nuke field, and I don’t blame them.
Where veterans do need to improve, us marketing themselves. Even an Infantryman has skills highly desired in any civilian job: organizational skills, time management, leadership, ability to remain calm and make the right decision in stressful situations, etc.
But nah, sadly, too many HR or hiring managers don’t recognize that.
And finally, yeah–my degree cost me about $2500 after I submitted a copy of my Page 4 and took about 30 units of gen ed courses. Debt upon graduation? Zero.
Top that, snowflakes.
One thing that hard charging military types bring to the civilian world that is nearly impossible to quantify is a work ethic! They hate the sit and wait and like to be busy. Show up early, leave late, work through lunch, and not take excessive breaks. I love giving the “10 minutes early is 5 minutes late” line to people and see their brain hurt.
Most of your hard working military folks will show up sick and need to be forced to go to the doctor who then needs to order them to go home and take a sick day.
Compare that to the snowflake who gets an ingrown toenail and takes two days for the physical injury and a week for the mental anguish. Who even heard of a “mental health day” in the military? Oh, you mean a range day?
Derp. Reported Mason’s comment instead of replying. Damn fat thumbs on a phone screen lol.
The medical thing is so damn true. I have a cyst on the back of my knee that I just noticed yesterday. Decided, for once, to call my doc first, instead of sitting on it for three months until I couldn’t move.
The worst part of this? Calling my boss to work out my schedule around the doc’s appt. The kicker? I’m working OT 12s and asked for a split shift.
Meanwhile, I watched a guy “get sick” and call out partway through Saturday’s OT. He isn’t part of the crew working 12s during the weekdays right now.
I both curse and praise the work ethic the Corps gave me. Curse it for making me break myself work, praise the rest…
There is a certain amount of snobbery in most H&R offices We are ‘wunderful” you are a worm” lol
I shake my head at that as well. I usually go looking for the “study” and when I do, I discover that there’s a disconnect between what the study is actually saying, and with what the article says about the study.
In this case, it’s not even a real study, just a survey and survey results. A real study would also have research questions (null and alternate hypotheses), raw results on a regression table, statistical testing, etc. It would build on previous studies, identify knowledge gaps raised by the previous studies thus lead to the current study questions, it would show methodologies, statistical hypotheses testing, results, discussion, limitations, recommendations for future results, etc.
This type of study is even more damming when it comes to saying something completely different from what the article referencing says about it. One example is the study that I referenced regarding the mythical 97% climate scientist consensus.
I spent 20+ years on active duty, 4 yrs in Marine field bands, then I re-uped for computers. After retirement I took my high school diploma and 16 yrs of computer skills and turned that into a civilian career that lasted 20 yrs and retired again. My pay at second retirement was over $90k a yr. All with only a high school diploma and a few college level classes.
college is completely over rated as a spring board to a career.
In fact, if college actually had value no democrat would want to fund it or support it.
I’ve got a daughter about to start her senior year of HS, so you know the college brochures are coming fast and heavy.
It amazes me how few discuss cost (I have to look them up and usually laugh my ass off.) I’ve also noticed something else: few if any discuss “alternative” means of paying for school outside parents or student loans.
Back when I went to HS and college, co-ops, internships, and work-study were the norm for thise who didn’t have wealthy parents, play sports, or have a 1500+ SAT/33 ACT.
Funny how when “free” money (Pell Grants, etc.,) became so prevalent that college became so insanely expensive.
Are the schools all still emphasizing the “quality of life” such as the quality of the dorms, the food, the gyms, the nightlife, et. al. instead of the quality of the education?
I wish that was a joke, but it isn’t.
I saw a couple that were probably written by cruise ship travel agents.
It is hard to beat a degree in Chemistry, or Engineering when it comes to moving up to management positions in the energy field. My time served as a Boiler Technician in the US Navy certainly opened doors, and got me some sweet (and some not so sweet) jobs, but whenever it came to moving up, the ass kissers were usually promoted before the workers.
You mean just like everywhere else on the planet?
*grin*
My plan when I retired was to restore a boat until I found a job. Unfortunately I started looking for a job six months before I retired. I took the first job that I was offered that I wanted (got three calls the first week) after I retired so I was out of work for total of one day.
That was five years ago. The wife really wants the boat gone now……
There are many gov’t jobs that require a college degree, just to meet the minimum qualifications. A degree in philosophy or photography or [fill in blank] will do. In some cases the major need not be related, even remotely, to the job sought. What’s more, if the applicant maintained a certain minimum GPA while majoring in Anti-American Studies, with a minor in Safe-Place Design, well hell, the applicant’s hiring prospects just rose. And, as I say, it’s the gov’t doing this. You know, the same entity that encourages the private sector to “Don’t forget. Hire a vet.”
You mean the same place that when I went to USAJobs, veterans preference and 15 years of related experience in hand, I couldn’t get the time of day back from them?
Yeah, I have a few of those horror stories to tell. Maybe someday I’ll discuss my experiences of the hiring/HR process with TVA.
This is true.
Not where I work, a hard science degree is requirement #1. In certain cases, prior experience is allowed, but that position will top out at GS-12. Can’t speak for the rest of the government, but some of your assertions seem a bit out there, Cav.
Some of my assertions seem…? Which ones? We’ll count them together. Could it be that you mistook gov’t for Federal gov’t?
Perhaps. As I said, I can’t speak for other Fed government branches (H&HS, DoE, etc) but my little part of the DoN is as I posted.
A college degree is nothing really more than proof one can follow instructions and meet deadlines, atributes hammered in on day 1 of military service.
A college degree that is actually useful and marketable is a bonus.
At least in the Fire Service (the only field i really know), I’ll agree with Cav here. Most chief positions, and even some lower rank officer spots require a degree. In many cases, as Cav points out, the nature of the degree doesn’t matter at all. In others, an in-field degree will be preferred, but some manner of degree is required, no matter the experience..
It seems now that a business degree is preferred in the police field, not criminal justice. Of course, chiefs and deputy chiefs are now administrators, not really police officers.
And, it won’t be long until the preferred degree will be urban studies or multicultural studies.
I picked MD for illustrative purposes. Want to be a parole and probation agent in Maryland? You can’t w/o a degree, but that degree can be in, oh, political science or economics. How does polly sci or economics relate to that field?
A political science or economics degree makes sense. Most social science degrees are related with similar course work.
Economics is more on a boundary of social science but it is a social science as it deals with how a society deals with scarcity.
Political Science, IMHO, is a largely worthless degree. I majored in it only because the Col. in charge of our ROTC program refused to let me major in Military Science, which was in the university’s catalogue. Apparently, the ROTC department would only allow that as major if there was no other way you would graduate and be commissioned.
I took a BA in polly sci, but was heavily into electives in History. I liked political theory quite muchly, and the gov’t courses weren’t bad. But as for turning that degree into something in that field? Ain’t gonna happen /o a doctorate.
5JC. A degree in political science or economics makes no sense to me in terms of supervising parolees. Another state, right next door to MD, tests for positions in gov’t by degree/non-degree. That’s West “By God” Virginia.
You are looking at it the wrong way. Supervising paroles (a low level law enforcement job) doesn’t really “require” a degree at all. It is something that can be learned OJT. Having a degree means something else entirely. Some police departments don’t require a degree either. Some do. A degree is not actually required at all as it is specialized training. You seem to be missing what having a college degree means instead of what it is supposed to do for you on a practical level.
Where I’m at to be a cop you have to have a 2 or 4 yr degree (state licensing req.), so most cops have a 2 or 4 year degree in law enforcement or criminal justice. There are a handful that come from other careers have so have a different degree, but the actual degree really doesn’t matter, just that they have one. Most agencies require a 4 year to move up to sergeant. Again, what the degree is doesn’t matter at all. To be a chief, a masters is preferred, but not usually required. Public administration seems to be the degree of the day for those that have one.
Fire services around here are almost exclusively volunteer, so to score a full time fire job you really have to know someone or be of a preferred ethnic or gender group.
Some police depts used to (I have no idea whether they still do)pay recruits more if degreed, regardless of major. In many cases, certain fieds such as LE require so many credits in related studies.
They certainly still do, even in my state, to incentivize education.
There’s even one dept I know of that pays a premium for an associates degree, which as I said before is REQUIRED for licensure. Only in government.
My department did pay extra when I was there, and they still do.
They pay on a scale, so much for 200 hours, so much more for and Associates, so much more for a Bachelor’s and so on for a Master’s.
We had a LT who had a master’s in Business Admin. who wrote a manual for the operation of the city jail. It was 7 chapters long, 159 pages, and written in such a way that whoever worked in the jail couldn’t do anything without violating some section of the manual. The Chief thought it was great. They used it to screw with people they didn’t like.
When I got out of LE in the mid 70’s I had an AA degree in police science and a wall full of certificates etc…..didn’t earn me a stinking dime!!
A friend of mine went to the VA’s HR office after retiring and his last job was CSM. Just to have a conversation about that very thing. The HR guy basically showed him a list of jobs, “here’s a job ONLY you can do because you went to basic training, room maintenance, because you know how to fold sheets, make a bed, etc. you could do security….) and skipped over jobs like Assistant Chief of Staff, department head, and so on.
As well, I was told that when it comes to USERRA (The Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act) which mostly effects reserve component personnel who get mobilized for whatever, that when it comes to violations of USERRA, MOST violations are from government organizations (usually federal). I know you’re shocked by that….
Were I that CSM, I’d have started off by ripping out some of the bed frame, and you can use your imagination from there.
Not all CSMs are created equal. I know some who make good CEOs and some who could not spell CEO with spell checker enabled.
Well this was a 5 minute introduction conversation, so the HR type didn’t know anything about it other than he was in for over 20, a CSM, etc.
Granted, yes some CSMs can’t spell Sergeant correctly because they never really were one.
I’ve unfortunately experienced both types, though I learned from both quite well. This is how to do it, this is NOT how to do it.
At the same time, I see the “application tracking system” as a fancified “ctrl+F” that allows companies to blame the computer so they can be lazy. It would seem that they don’t program in “military” or “veteran” to the system because I have friends with 20 years experience whose resumes aren’t even being read by a human being.
“Hey I’ve been doing this exact job for 20 years and I’m almost done with my degree!” “well, you don’t have a degree so we’re going to hire this 22 year old who has one even if you’ve been doing the job almost as long as he’s been alive….”
Just go check out one of the sites like indeed.com and you’ll see how often they throw the “masters degree required!” bit in there. Really? I was doing that as an E5 in the Army and you want someone to have 6-8 years of schooling for it?
Even “career advisors” who haven’t actually been in the military have zero clue about transferring military skills to civilian side. The fact that there is such a small percentage of veterans and growing even smaller doesn’t help. (about 21 million vets in the US.)
At the same time, what are veterans getting offered for jobs (unless they’re a flag officer with a PhD)? I wish I had a better “trade” certifying skill myself for retirement, maybe that VA Voc Rehab will be the way to go after.
Problem is, not much is going to change unless and until you get a few vets in HR or similar positions.
Which is funny since we have how many thousands of “HR” trained personnel in our military that eventually get out and go to the civilian world?
NHSparky – here’s the giveaway from the article:
“Elizabeth Lynch, director of external programs in the office of military and veterans affairs at JP Morgan Chase & Co., told the panel, “We know that if we’re going to be successful as a firm at retaining the veteran talent we’re bringing in, we have to spend as much energy educating our nonveterans at the firm as we do in supporting veterans at the firm.”
Sounds like businesses are not willing to spend the time or money doing just that.
Well, you put a veteran with a hanful of years of service into a position where you need something to get done, it’ll most likely get done. They might even come up with more efficient and better ways to do that very task.
What’s worse is, businesses get a federal tax credit for hiring veterans. That alone is why I say they should be putting “veteran” and/or “military” in their dumb ATS that searches resumes. If they did that I imagine that veteran unemployment (and even under-employment) would decrease even further.
For some businesses (like the government at many levels) you don’t want to “rock the boat” with some groups, like unions. Most vets would get work done, clean things up, hold people accountable and get things running smoother, while producing a better, quality product and/or service to the end user.
Right, my bad. Who wants that? heh
“like unions”
That’s a biggie. Most of my engineering career was on the production floor with union stewards following me around.
I remember thinking to myself that this must be what it’s like to be a perpetual 2nd Lt.
I toughed it out, made a few friends and eventually got my work done but it wasn’t easy.
Every employer I ever worked for held my military service in high regard. “you know how to take orders” was often cited.
Gee whiz, vets are unable to find work? (per MilTimes) Really??
Okay, well, it was difficult during a recession in 1975, but I went back to school to bump up my “job skills” and got a job at an A-V company in Chicago on my 2nd interview, BECAUSE most of my experience was in Navy photography. Never looked back.
I picked up all that computer skills stuff as things changed. Flexibility was/is an asset, too. Best job I ever had was the one I retired from. Now I work for MEEEE! And I still shoot, and I’m going back to film for black & white stuff. No comparison between B&W film tonal ranges and converting digital color to B&W.
I don’t know where these people get their notions, but they are promoting a fallacy. The whining is annoying.
After I left the Navy, to keep the wolf from the door I had a retail gig and managed a horse farm- at the same time. I picked up a Defense Contractor job soon enough, and never looked back. GS now (actually STRL*, a different animal) and am in that perfect spot- one level below Management. Too senior to fuck with, don’t spend my days in mind numbing meetings. Win-win!
*Science and Technology Reinvention Laboratory, performance based pay bands instead of GS steps based on longevity. I believe Trump is aware of STRL, and wouldn’t be surprised to see it implemented Government wide. AFGE will positively howl if he does.
Aw1:
My employers keep asking if im interested in lead worker positions. Hell no. Stick me in a corner and leave me the HELL alone.
Spent way too much time babysitting in the Navy- don’t need to do it again.
Ditto(on the Marine side).
Same with me. Police Dispatcher.
I may not know shit but I sure know how to burn it.
There are always jobs for people who can drive a dump truck. 🙂
Grandpa always used to say “the world needs ditch diggers.” Thanks to the service, I can confidently say that there are millions of men and women who with only an entrenching tool can dig one.
But in this day and age, there are hundreds of millions that would look for the “ditch digging” app on their phone to see if that’ll do the digging for them.
When I was finishing college, I was also running a small stable so that I could pay for my own horses’ needs. I needed a gate to keep people from driving into the parking area by mistake, so I got a handheld augur posthole digger, and was digging out the 2nd post hole when some guy running a construction company asked me if I was looking for work – because he couldn’t get anyone to take initiative. Maybe I should have taken him up on that. Construction jobs in this state pay $30 to $45/hr in this state now, and I see women truck drivers at the aggregates company down the highway, all the time.
Horse farm I worked had a power auger that ran off the tractor’s PTO and three point hitch.
Took a while to master that sucker, but for all the post holes I dug, that thing was pure gold.
Well, but I had only three postholes to dig for the gate, so I rented the hand-driven digger, instead of using a mechanical thingy.
Oddly enough….my daughter begged me for $375 several years ago.
Why? So she could take a week long forklift driving class at the community college; seems she overheard my sister ( She owns/operates a transportation brokerage) complaining about how hard it was to find a forklift operator for her docks.
Yes…..my baby girl marched into my sisters office two weeks later for a job….still holding her certificate with barely dry ink.
She still has that job as she finishes school.
A lot to be said for trade schools.
Absolutely. Not to mention that driving forklift is fun!
Mike Rowe does a lot of videos talking to young kids about the benefits of a tech school education. Nothing like actually learning some skills instead of getting a piece of paper that says you showed up some place for a few years.
Best choice I ever made was going to a Maritime College. The deck and engineering students were kept far too busy for nonsense to leak in and when we graduated we went right to the fleet and got busy (the engineers made out like bandits; power plant jobs ashore OR working at sea.) Lots of my classmates were prior service too and fit in quite well.
My old man went to a Maritime Trades High School that used to be run on an old WW2 liberty ship. They picked if they wanted to be steward, deck or engine dept and learned their areas and the tools they used to run them inside and out. Those kids came out with solid skills, diplomas and work ethic. Both he and his best friend and fellow grad never had trouble finding work.
Son #2 is doing this now. Picked up Bosun recently and is working hard and making bank.
Is he prior service? Military Sealift Command was always big on taking prior service guys. In any case it’s a hell of a good profession, in any case. Good on him picking up Bosun! A good bosun is worth his weight in gold… soon if he chooses he will climb the hawsepipe to a license.
No prior service, straight from High School to the Harry Lundberg School of Seamanship, which happens to be right down the road from La Casa de AW1Ed. MSC was fun for him, but a money loser. Too much time ashore with Latvian young lovelies. Sailors…
Trade school? Lineman is an excellent job, with some serious dough coming after about five years. Anyone who does that job in service can walk into a job the day after they ETS.
Doc,
Do you follow Mike Rowe? If not, you should. He is awesome! He is a big trade school supporter but also raises money for scholarships to get it done.
I do actually….I am impressed with his work, and his support for trade schools; My son went tradition college, but my daughter ( Much like her mother) is a bit more…non traditional…she likes getting her hands greasy, and isn’t afraid to learn a trade to work her way through college now.
Forklift operator
Fire suppression system inspections
Siding/window installation
Commercial Vehicle dispatch.
….these are all classes she took and worked at to get through college, and it has done a wonderful job of providing her the money to pay as she goes…Daddys little tomboy. 🙂
We as a society have become divorced from our military since the implementation of the all volunteer force in the 1970s. At one time, Military service was burden shared equally among all levels of society. Today, only a small segment of the population serves. And that segment keeps getting smaller. Hence the negative perceptions of veterans.
And the funny part us, according to the STEAM data I saw, enlistment is more commen from kids who come from families with income in the top quintile versus those with family income in the bottom quintile.
But by far the highest is the middle class.
NH: from what I saw on recruiting duty, low income families usually had poor grades/intellect or moral/legal issues and couldnt qualify for the service anyway
That’s only a small portion of it.
In schools with higher minority populations (I was a recruiter in Los Angeles area, so I saw both extremes) you did have a lower percentage of students who couldn’t cut average SAT/ACT scores, but quality of education was again only part of the reason.
A lot of kids didn’t bother to take them because acceptance at Jr. colleges in CA is guaranteed, and of the kids who did cut decent test scores, the number of scholarships, etc., available to them was far greater than in a middle-class predominantly white school.
So there’s that too.
Conscription ended in Slovakia (where my family is from) in 2006. Listening to the old timers and middle aged men talk and laugh over memories of their two years service in the army I sense from them humble pride and nostalgia. Still remember visiting as a child and my cousin, a corporal (truck driver) coming home on leave. Pretty impressionable for a little kid!
I envy them for it.
I think what Trapper Frank stated defines the crux of the problem. Also that for much of the general population, their only contact with a “veteran” is a panhandler by the side of the road with a cardboard sign. As an aside, I’d like to know the average age of the people that assemble stories in the news department of a newspaper or TV station/network. I bet many of these people are relatively young and not had much practical experience in life outside of their formal education.
One problem I have seen with young people leaving the service is that they are told they have valuable skills, training, and experience and that employers will be lining up to hire them. If you live in an area with a lot of vets in the business world, vet owned businesses, and the like, then that’s probably very true. Where I’m at, that’s not the case. So troops need to have the skills to sell their military experiences, which we don’t give them.
Take for example a young former Marine infantryman I was helping. He was having trouble translating his experiences. I pointed out that you just need to translate it into business terms they can understand. He had worked in high stress environments as part of a team to accomplish a mission in a rapidly evolving atmosphere. Was able to operate with minimal supervision and was given responsibility to lead his fire team.
We don’t give troops the skills to sell themselves, so we as the been there, done thats have to help out the friends and family we see leaving the service. People ETSing are left with the impression they’ll have a job handed to them, but like with everything else, they have to put some effort into it. Some MOSs are easier to translate than others too. If you’re a heavy equipment operator and want to do that, obviously that would require less “translating”. If you’re a TOW gunner, it’s nigh on impossible to find civilian employment using those skills directly.
That’s my biggest takeaway (and disappointment) from my Transition Assistance Program (TAP) class when I got out.
Lots of other recruiters, folks from VA, DAV, etc., but ZERO input on how to write a cover letter or resume.
Yep… when I retired in ’08, the TAP course was a HUGE disappointment when it came to making yourself marketable.
Same here. I retired in 2012 and had the same experience.
The TAP folks were largely useless, and a lot of advice they gave was outdated.
During TAP class, one of our “assignments” throughout the week was to work on and continually edit our resume. At the end of each day, a “coach” would review it and make recommendations. At the end of the week, we were supposed to have a great resume.
(For what it’s worth, I’ve always thought a resume should be tailored to as specific job, not a shotgun blast of all my experience and training…)
Anyway –
On Thursday, we were told there would be a large recruiting fair on base, and lots of agencies/organizations and companies would be there – and told to be sure to take copies of our resumes with us. We were told we were sure to get noticed.
I was skeptical, and that skepticism proved true. Within 5 minutes of attending it was obvious it was a waste of time. If you asked the recruiter from company / agency “xyz” what positions they had available or asked anything else, they referred everyone to the company website (“Use the search feature”) and handed out business cards, pen lights, mouse pads (and so on).
I did better on my own and threw away most everything given to me.
Along with that, the civilian world has no real “standard” for writing a resume. Too many companies have their own exact format they want everyone to use and with the application tracking system they implement, you could be screwed.
One of the more worthwhile things about the military, there’s a form and/or format for everything.
Retired last summer after 20 yrs. Finished a MS in Public Administration 2 yrs before that. Went on terminal Friday, interviewed for a job with the county Monday and was hired Wed. Drew 2 paychecks for a month and a half. Hired on at a rate of 4$ an hour more than anyone save one person on my team, some of who have been doing the job for YEARS. No student loan debtx no fucks to give, and NO problems. Im doing alright.
“I doubt there is a single person attending Evergreen that could re-assemble a transmission.”
That’s; racist, sexist, islamophobic, hate speech and you should be silenced, you know, for the betterment of our tolerant society. (Huuuge sarc)
But for real, how is this nation going to persist if shit like this is touted as fact? Service Members are a repository of Classic Liberalism and enlightened thought? What person from the outside of our sphere would want in? That’s a shit idea with horrid consequences.
Like, I don’t know who this John Stuart Mill guy thinks he is but The Daily Show guy was whaaaayyyy fun-eee-er.
FML.
Got out of high school and in “74” joined the USAF, did my 6+ years of active duty…learned things about the world that you could never learn in a class room in my travels for uncle sugar and on my own accord around the globe, plus technical skills, some of which you would probably never learn in a classroom that came in useful for a career in corporate aircraft maintenance, a career where I met over the decades, some of the stupidest people totally lacking common sense with bachelors, masters & doctorate degrees, more than you can imagine, so to me a degree only means that particular individual knows how to read a book, write a paper and take a test successfully, but it doesn’t mean they really know anything outside of other than the subject they studied in a classroom, as if liberal arts and gender studies degrees are superior real world survival skills, “NOT!” outside of that they’re more often than not, totally lost…the other thing is, quite often these so called superiorly edgeuhmicated types come across as a bunch of humorless robots incapable of improvising on the spot or thinking outside of the box(book) when it comes to problem solving outside of the normal book situation, plus they tend too panic and stress out to a much higher degree. Another thing that has stuck with me and I will never forget is back in the mid to late “70’s” when I was doing my USAF time, this country treated servicemen & women like we were 2nd class citizen pariahs…like it was our fault for the poor decisions made by the college degreed politicians during the war in Vietnam, which btw I never stepped foot in because at the time I went in, it was pretty much over with …my question is, who is really the stupid ones ? us or them….a BTW I did go to Rutgers University for a few years but didn’t graduate…I became bored with the whole yuppie student culture of the “80’s” and the commie professors, whom I thought of as being part… Read more »
“Culture of numbnuts.”
That, right there, is why I haven’t, and won’t, go to college. My mother thinks I’m stupid for not doing so.
When I got hired on in the federal government, they refused to classify me as a supervisor cause I had “no experience”.
25 years in the USN, held every supe job from LPO to Commanding Officer. Sheesh!
Yeah, I’ve been a “leader” for 20 years. So I wonder if I’d be allowed to be in charge of a broom closet in a fed job.
Though I’d be curious how much that would translate to a civilian side job. “Hey so I’ve been a leader directly in charge of others since I was 22 years old, will that suffice enough for your leadership requirement?”
That’s just plain sick. And I bet you were wondering how the supervisors got their jobs.
After I left AD, my first job was as a pretend trigger-puller; I was an armed security guard making $2 per hour. Luckily, I never had to pull my Hi-Power on anyone and use my SAS trained CQB skills. But I only did that for the year before I started law school. After admission to the bar, it took about 2 months to find a job as a lawer (sp). I considered going back on AD as a JAG officer, but my wife talked me out of it because she didn’t want to move every three or four years.
Retired cop and former army 11H here. I field trained about 25 guys in my career. I can barely remember most of them but guess which ones stand out? Three USMC infantry types, a former navy seal (a real one) and a FO from 75th rangers. Far and away the easiest guys I ever trained and all are really good cops.
“They” as in TAP or whatever it’s called now, neglect to mention that the soon-to-be-ashore service member is starting on a new playing field, and all the competition has a 4 to 20 (or more!) years head start. All that leadership, dedication, loyalty, and being the best helo wrench on the East Coast means little, unless a job wrenching on helos is the target. Sucks but it’s true. Those expecting to walk into high dollar positions straight from the military will be disappointed. There are exceptions of course, usually in the defense contractor world, and having a friend on the inside is priceless. I’ve been on both sides of that- the Good Old Boys Network isn’t a fable; ask any Navy Chief Petty Officer. The point is, keep expectations real, and when hired, shine those military qualities that are so firmly entrenched. Promotions will come with results.
I believe there’s something to this claim. Veterans land jobs but, for the most part, do not hold jobs commensurate with their experience and prior levels of responsibility. I’d say they’re ‘underemployed’, as opposed to ‘unemployed’.
On the other hand, even if taking an entry level position beneath their advanced skill set, it shouldn’t take long for excellence to be rewarded if the company is worth working for.
When – not if – the shit hits the fan, the vets will know how to DO things and will survive. I don’t think many gender studies or comic book majors will last more than a few days. The draft “forced” me to enlist and I thank God everyday for having done my time. My biggest regret is that my son could not go because he is almost legally blind.
My thought process is two-fold. One: recruiters have been known to lie about the jobs taken in the military transfer to civilian life…not always true. 2nd: If troops have good leadership, like me…they’re taught to plan. I had a plan. But I find that the people I served with were very successful. Of the twenty that I actually served with? We all have BS degrees, and at least 5 have a master’s. Three are PhD’s. Not too shabby- and two went from NCO to CO before Green to Gold. Most of us did not get degrees related to the MOS we served in. Tanker to Doctor…Chemical Lab Tech to CPA. We all knew that it would take work to get there. And when I think of what I made as a private- 33 years ago- $6k? There was no transition program when we ETS’ed. The Veteran Job Fairs aren’t great. I currently work for an SDVOB. It was about knowing someone at this point since Martin passed away. Anyone who knows me from here…knows that I keep the second R of the Ranger Creed in my head and heart:
“Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude required to fight on the (Ranger) Objective and complete the mission, though I be the lone survivor.” Funny, but in 21 months, the lyrics to songs don’t mean the same…and in this, I am the survivor. Hooah!!!
Well, my MOS translated directly to a civilian agency job, supposedly the same: and it was the most boring job I ever had. So we pulled up stakes, moved 2000 miles into a brutal job. Sold cars a few years, then leveraged that sales training with some military training and moved into a different sales field and never looked back. Retired now and only work for me. Don’t know if that is defined as successful, but every time the wolf was at the door managed to drive him off.
The definition of “success” doesn’t necessarily match a preconceived notion of that word. A good portion of “success” has to do with how happy you are with what you are doing, not how much cash there is in your cash drawer.
I think that Al Lewis (aka Grandpa Munster) had it right when he said “Find something that you love to do and love what you’re doing, and everything else will follow.”
That makes a lot more sense that defining it by income level, career status or any of the “tangibles” that are usually considered a mark of success.
Thank you for your words of wisdom, Ex-PH2…I agree with you 100%.
WRT the hoary “Veteran-as-victim” cliche, let’s be honest and admit that the worst perpetrators of that myth are veterans themselves.
Right here on TAH we’ve seen hundreds of fakers, pretenders and embellishers who blame their sad situation in life on having “caught the PTSD” or been otherwise traumatized and brutalized by their military service. We’ve seen legions of pretenders shaking a tin cup and begging for money because they are “homeless vets” who’s soft little minds were destroyed by the Big Bad Military.
Do civilians generally have a distorted view of the military? Yes, they do. But a big part of the reason their viewpoints are distorted is because of the things our fellow veterans have said and done.
One reason I’m not a big fan of “military discounts”, free meals on veterans day, “thank you for your service”, etc, is because I think in a subtle way it perpetuates the myth of the veteran as someone who is broken and in need of aid.
At the very least it perpetuates the idea that being in the military is always a sacrifice or a hardship.
Well, sure, there were times when things were tough, but the reason I always feel uncomfortable when people “thank me for my service” is that (a) it wasn’t really a sacrifice to me, I enjoyed it (most of the time) and (b) if I am being 100% honest, I did it for ME, not for YOU.
I want to know how you ‘catch’ the PTSD.
If there’s an immunization program for it, the VA should send out a broadcast notice for it to get it with your flu shot next fall. After all, a severe case of the PTSD could mean you’d be laid up for several days watching reruns of Cheers or CHiPs on TV and no one would come near you.
Oddly enough we hire veterans and we are growing every year for the last ten years and our competition has been going out of business in our area…we are one of a handful of companies left standing…I believe largely due to the mission oriented focus of veterans.
Veterans understand we need to do what we need to do get the product out and make money. We hire veterans, and we hire non-veterans. We base our decision on who is best for the position and if all things are equal I’m picking the vet every time. If I’m being honest if it’s unequal and the split is against the vet but it’s close I’m still hiring the vet…but that’s me.
Every once in a while I’ll find one of those idiots.
“Well, I was going to join the military, but I went to college instead,” said with a false air of superiority.
My reply?
“Cool. I did both. Oh, and by the way, the military helped pay for my Bachelors and Masters at two very good state universities. Now, post-Active Duty, I have this great career and none of the crazy debt you incurred.”
Mic dropped.
I like that response…to the point and a kick in the ass at the same time…well played, well played indeed.
IMHO, Military Times (of any variety) is known to lean a little left of center – so for an article like this to appear in that rag is no surprise.
I’m surprised the author didn’t make some kind of fucked up connection and explain that when veterans are unable to secure successful employment, that is one of the reasons PTSD fairs up and shooting sprees happen (or some such other nonsense).
Every veteran I know (and had the opportunity to serve with) have successful post-military careers.
One works with a state representative in Texas, who advocates on and for military and veteran affairs issues…
Another is a successful JROTC Instructor…
Three or four own and manage their own successful businesses…(including one that owns a small, veteran owned contracting company with 4 federal contracts under its belt)…
Two are very successful real estate agents…
Several others have successful careers working various positions in the federal government (but have to put up with the bullshit associated with having those jobs)…
The list goes on.
During the 80s my cutoff score was 998 to E-6. I took a chance. ETSed. Left the Army with my new wife and baby.Immediately went to work as a paramedic. My employer advised me that his best medics were Vets. I still had to jump through certification hoops. No I didn’t go to med school but I did provide for Mrs. Dustoff.
I found a job with the railroad after retirement. They are a huge employer of veterans. I become a supervisor with the company and started before I was officially retired. What I sold during the interview and what they wanted was leadership. 1/3rd off all the supervisors in the company are former or retired military. They say they’ll teach you the job as long as you bring your leadership abilities from the military to the company.
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