Sutherland Springs shooting
At around 11:30, a gunman started shooting up a crowd of folks as they left their Sunday worship at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas. Numbers vary by news reports, but it look like more than 20 were killed and about the same number were injured. The gunman was killed after a brief pursuit by the police. News also varies on whether police killed him or he shot himself.
The Daily Beast identifies the gunman as Devin Patrick Kelley, but who knows.
The pastor’s 14-year-old daughter, Annabelle Renee Pomeroy, is among the dead.
I know who the shooter isn’t, though. It isn’t Samir Al-Hajeed like this article claims;
If you google the name Samir Al-Hajeed, you’ll discover that he’s been blamed early and often in the reportage for every mass shooting of the last few months, including the Las Vegas shooting. Poor guy.
But making him a recent Muslim convert and a former Marine makes it easy to understand for the journos, I guess.
Beware of fake news.
Category: Breaking News
Sam Hyde is neither a Muslim convert nor was he in the Marines. He’s one of those comedians slash performance artists whose schtick involves a lot of social commentary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Hyde
An EX-Marine turned “Amish Anarchist”? He sure as FUCK didn’t turn Christian, Jewish, Buddhist or Hindu, ALLAH PIG SHIT!!! May the day he was born be erased from the calendar as he goes to hell to meet 72 clones of Helen Thomas.
He was a Muslim? I did not know that.
hey moron, ur fellow misguided paulstians in arabia say jesus is Allah.. what now, JESUS PIG SHIT??.. Allah simply means GOD or more accurately the one GOD in arabic nothing more nothing less….. fools.. btw he’s never a muslim convert to begin with..it’s FAKE NEWS…
Moron? Are you triggered because API called out the allan name? Is this Lars?
I would say go fuck yourself on APOs behalf but he certainly doesn’t need my to stick up for him.
Even Lars writes better than that.
That is the most poorly written screed I’ve seen in a long time. Not only is the spelling worse than my kindergarten-aged grandchild, but the reasoning is worse than that of a demented hamster.
Yes sir good point.
Unfortunately I boogered up my spelling a bit in reply. I should have used a keyboard not a “smart” phone.
I cannot throw any dirt-clods when it comes to spelling.
Well, not until it comes to that level of absurdity represented above.
Suspect is believed to have been shot by a citizen at the crime scene. Engaged the shooter with a rifle and pursued as he fled. Suspects mother in law is from Sutherland.
Two apparent nuts, two rather conservative targets.
Texas LE just stated the shooter was dressed all in black, tactical stuff plus a ballistic vest.
Not a black hoodie, but I am really starting to think “hmmmmmm”
On the other hand, this is the anniversary of the FT Hood shooting, if I am not mistaken.
Then again, it is Guy Fawkes Day, the patron-saint holiday for violent anarchist types. And, the day after the 4 November rage against Trump day.
Then again, the two most commonly probable groups share the same goal of ending the USA.
-really- not liking where this seems to go.
CBS news, or See BS, is reporting that the shooter was dishonorably discharged from the USAF. If this is true, he couldn’t legally obtain or possess a firearm. So, tell us again, libs, how more laws will prevent things like this from happening.
It is my understanding he is former Air Force. Everyone is saying he received a Dishonorable Discharge but I have also seen it said that he got a Bad Conduct Discharge. Civilians wouldn’t know that those are actually two separate types of discharges so I don’t know what to believe. His Linked In account describes him as a liberal type without actually saying so. His Facebook account has already been deleted. At this point, who knows?
I hope he didn’t have enough time to get right with God and he is burning in hell for eternity.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their loved ones. Peace be with you all.
Pretty sure in these circumstances, a deathbed conversion would have St. Peter saying “So?”
Speculation on who/what/why doesn’t produce facts. I prefer to wait until the facts are brought to light, including the real reason behind this.
Random acts of violence seem to be in vogue right now, although they’ve been growing in number and size since the 1970s.
Another gun free, free fire zone massacre. Seems to me there ought to be some law changes like allowing worshipers to defend themselves and their place of worship. Madmen who have no concern for the lives of others don’t give a shit about any laws.
Texas churches are NOT gun free zones, Steve1371.
In Texas it is legal for a LTC holder to carry in church. If I had to hazard a guess, a good 25%-50% of our congregation is packing on any given Sunday.
A church may, if it so desires, declare itself gun free, but I don’t know of any that have first hand.
I have passed through this little town on my way to my late sister-in-laws. It is quiet, off the main drags, a little country town. I can see that most folks there would not see the need to carry.
My church is closer to a big city, on a main drag, and a college town – all factors which drive the risk level higher. Our church, and others I know of, have congregants who form a security committee and patrol. Many are LEOs, and others are just LTC.
But to reiterate, churches and other places of worship in Texas are NOT gun-free zones by state law.
It would appear no one was carrying at mass there. To bad . We can see what happens when these nuts are confronted.
Steve1371: per news reports, the suspect was apparently shot by someone on-site who had or obtained some form of firearm. So it does seem that someone in the
congregationimmediate vicinity either was either armed or had relatively immediate access to a firearm. (Edited as a later report indicates the individual who shot the perp may have been a passer-by or lived nearby instead of a member of the congregation.)FWIW: last time I checked, Baptist congregations don’t call their services “mass”. Some might even take offense when their denomination is confused with any of the various Catholic variants.
Well, this old Baptist just laughs when he reads that these Baptists were “at mass.” (Some British news-site made that same mistake.)
You appear to be tolerant and don’t take offense too easily, Graybeard. That’s IMO admirable.
I’ve known some that were, shall we say, a bit less tolerant on many issues than I considered reasonable – and who took offense quite easily. And not all were Baptists, or even religious individuals. (smile)
Thanks for the complement, Hondo. I am honored.
I remember coming home from school – I think 4th grade – whining about how the kids had hurt my feelings.
Mom said: “Well, maybe your feelings were sticking out too far.
I had some wise parents.
Apparently you did.
My recent former church has attempted to informally (via word-of-mouth) declare itself a gun-free zone, but that doesn’t hold any legal water. They do have at least one (usually two) LEOs on duty onsite for every service.
Wrong – I carry in Church every single time I step in the door. It is legal. Today it got more real.
A friend of mine from Texas was texting me a few minutes ago. Recently she balked when her pastor told the ushers they could carry concealed. She opted not to, but is thinking now that it might not be a bad idea.
I want to ask you a very serious question, and I don’t mean in any way to be disrespectful when I ask it. My question is this. Do you see the disconnect in carrying a weapon for self defense in a church that worships Jesus? He calls upon his followers to offer no resistance to the evil found in the world, because his word says that he has overcome the world. It is a lack of faith, a disrespectful act, to carry a weapon in a Christian Church. This is one of the reasons I am no longer Christian — I made the conscious decision to no longer worship a God who called on me for the kind of passivism required of his followers. Or the kind of forgiveness he calls for, either. Why should I extend any kindness to a violent killer?
As a warrior, I would be interested in your thoughts on this.
I don’t see where Jesus ever taught non-resistance to evil. In fact, at one point, He even instructed His disciples to buy a sword, if they didn’t have one, and to carry it.
As for forgiveness, it does not let anyone off the hook. It just takes them off our hook and puts them on God’s hook. It gets us out of the way so that He can deal with them without our interference.
I would say to go back and read that passage again carefully. The disciples did just what you did — they focused on the simple expedient of a weapon, when Jesus was attempting to make another point.
And God is not a lawyer, to twist words to entrap people. Forgiveness is exactly that. It is not only a balm for your spiritual wounds, but for the person you forgive. IF YOU FORGIVE SOMEONE, IT IS IF GOD HIMSELF DID SO, SINCE HE CALLS YOU HIS BROTHER. What you have loosed, he will not bind again. Is that not what he said?
Luke 22:36
“Now, however, He told them, “the one with a purse should take it, and likewise a bag; and the one without a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.
Red letters, even.
Pinto, some Christian churches/Preachers, etc. have forgotten the WW II song “Praise The Lord And Pass The Ammunition”. Christianity wasn’t always this way, it’s a result of 60+ years of left wing BS infiltrating our institutions, including our churches.
Just trivia: That song is on the soundtrack of the video game “Bioshock 2″…the franchise has some interesting old songs woven through it.
Well, I didn’t go to mass put on by the Chaplain unarmed and I believe that God helps those who help themselves. We have fought wars to put the world right with God’s teachings including “Thou shalt not kill.”, even thou it took a lot of killing to do it. I also believe it took faith in God to pull those wars off, and it still does. I am not a bible thumper and rarely go to church these days but I still have faith and call on God for direction with my moral compass.
If you read a direct translation of the “Ten Commandments” … it’s not “Thou shall not kill.”
Correct translation is “Thou shall not murder.” (“murder” as defined by God’s Law)
Rereading the Old Testament will make the context clear.
“He calls upon his followers to offer no resistance to the evil found in the world”
The most accurate translation (from the Greek) of Mt 5:39 et seq. is “Do not respond with evil to those who inflict evil to you.” Moreover, in Lk 22:36 Christ tells his disciples to buy a sword. And, in Lk 22:51, he tells Peter to sheath his sword (after whacking the guy’s ear off), not to throw it away. That Christ needn’t be defended with swords doesn’t meant they (normatively) couldn’t so defend themselves under reasonable circumstances.
And that, of course, is just the Gospels. Elsewhere in the New and (especially) Old Testament, the acceptability of self-defense is stated far more directly. And, as a general rule, extracting persistent normative rules from individual passages is…tricky.
We must protect not only our our fellow-humans from Moslems but especially our brothers and sisters in the church.
“Do you see the disconnect in carrying a weapon for self defense in a church that worships Jesus?”
Nope
Then let me help you see. Every word he said, every action he performed, was meant for an ironclad example of the Christian Life. The commander of legions of angels allowed his created creatures to beat and crucify him. He said that we are blind because we do not see. And what we do not see is the unyielding demand to submit.
Thanks, I certainly hope that scratched whatever you had that was itching.
Pffffttttt! Spew alert! This is the best post ever and you nailed it. There is certainly an itchy spot with Pinto.
Hmmmm. Your couth is showing. Or rather, the lack there of. I said nothing deserving of your trash talk, mister.
And now you’re the victim? Wow.
My name and victim don’t fit in the same sentence. I try to be polite,but I can play nasty when it’s called for. I would rather be polite to you and the others here, even if I point out that you’re being rude. I wasn’t rude to IDC SARC, and yes, I know how he talks. But act the victim? Here? Nah. Waste of time, if nothing else.
Fair enough.
You asked a question, then went back for the fight.
With IDC SARC ….
And you act shocked that he said something -slightly- off-color? Seriously?
WHAT FIGHT?? I attempted to engage in a conversation. But honestly, I didn’t mean to kick a hornets nest, so I will go away now, and leave you folks alone.
Pinto, you are SERIOUSLY confused on a number of points. You were not truly a Christian, or you would not have simply “stopped” being one because you misunderstand Christian doctrine. This is a clear example of what happens when people claim to be Christians but are not truly born again and are biblically ignorant.
on can doctrinally argue that once saved, -nothing- can remove the saved from His hand.
She has had a doubt. She may yet reconcile it. -I- won’t write her off for that. I have -way- too much of my own mistakes to answer for.
The Opposition goes to great lengths to plant those doubts. The cunning of some is Diabolical. Overcoming that can be the work of a lifetime.
There is no way in hell that God, in any form would want us to only turn the other cheek when confronted with evil.
If that was the case, who in the world would worship their God as they would die as soon as the evil ones found out.
This is satan doing his work, plain and simple satan. It is also satan working through those that have no beliefs of a higher power or intelligence attempting to drag us into the morass of satanic behavior.
If you believe in a higher power, you better believe in a lower power because he has his sights set on you and will work to bring you into the same hell that he inhabits for eternity.
I’m not trying to be a Bible thumper or belittle anyone at all about their beliefs here, I just call them like I see them.
I have seen evil, personally, and it is all around, it’s up to us individually to resist against it and fight it for all we are worth.
WWII was the largest struggle between good and evil in history, God showed us how to win, we are here to prove ourselves to God, and nothing else.
My Grandmother, a very wise woman, on her deathbed told me that this life is Purgatory and it is up to us to decide where we are going… To ignore evil or not try to stop it would be a sin of omission, and that is a very big sin…
I just checked my Bible and somehow I couldn’t find the verse that says I owe any explanation for my faith to you.
Nice attempt to cull attention by capitalizing on human tragedy, though.
Gently, David. I’ve worked in hospitals since I was 19 years old. I know precisely what human tragedy is, and have no need to “capitalize” on it.
And the only person on here that I actually addressed concerning his faith had nothing to say. I didn’t ask you a damn thing.
Translation:
“My tragedy is bigger than your tragedy!”
just as a matter of record, we have two David’s commenting today…
My apologies, Fellow David. I’ll deconfuse.
Well, it’s nice that you think your work history gives you the right to question ANYONE’s faith, mine or the gentlemen above. My work history is with septic and wastewater, and that means I know shit like yours when it drifts past.
“I didn’t ask you a damn thing.” Now, what would Christ say about that attitude? Not very humble, I’d say. Not very turn-the-other-cheek. Frankly I find your attitude-coming here to Educate the Heathens, and of course to demand attention for yourself- very UN Christian. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Could you be more specific about whose interpretation it is that Christians are to offer no resistance to evil? Most would tell you that they understand their mission to be quite the opposite.
I think it has to do with Jesus offering no resistance to being crucified.
Bingo. Sounds like an example of the Pacifist’s Fallacy to me.
IMO, that fallacy – that Christians are required to embrace nonviolence – springs from mis-translation of the 5th/6th commandment (depending on denomination) as “Thou shalt not kill.” I’m not a Greek or Hebrew linguist, so I can’t say definitively from personal knowledge – but I’ve read many places that the more correct translations of the earliest known Greek and Hebrew texts is actually, “You shall not commit murder.” Rather large difference.
Not all homicide is murder. Some, including self-defense and defense of others, is justified and proper when necessary.
Logically, a committed Pacifist would stand by and do nothing while his or her own infant child was murdered in front of them, and when they had the power to stop the killing – with the later claim that it was “God’s will” they did so. Sorry, but I don’t think that’s exactly what God would want to see in such a situation.
Hondo, you are correct.
The Hebrew word used in the Commandment “Thou shalt not kill” refers to murder.
The Hebrew (for those who care) is: לֹא תִּרְצָֽח׃ ס
The Greek (Septuagint) is: οὐ φονεύσεις
The Hebrew root has the following meanings:
I.to murder, slay, kill
A.(Qal) to murder, slay
i.premeditated
ii.accidental
iii.as avenger
iv.slayer (intentional) (participle)
B.(Niphal) to be slain
C.(Piel)
i.to murder, assassinate
ii.murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)
D.(Pual) to be killed
The Greek word φονεύσεις has a similar sense.
Regarding pacifism, for the Christian there is a tension between what one ought to do when confronted with the possibility of being martyred for ones’ faith, and what to do when confronted with the possibility of being killed or someone else being killed.
While Scripturally Death is one of our enemies, it is not, for the Christian, final. Neither is it avoidable. Historically, God has been able to use the death of His people to bring others to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. That I may lose my life in order that others may gain eternal life is, overall, a great good. That said, I am not required to allow someone to kill me or others in random (or not-so-random) acts of violence such as this one.
On the other hand, God may very well call some of His people to live as Pacifists. I am not, personally. (I’m an old Battling Baptist, after all. Not a Meek Mennonite.) But I have seen Him use pacifists who seek to serve Him.
There is room in Christianity for differences of opinion. Romans 14:1 says “Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.” So some may be called to live a pacifist lifestyle, and others not. That is between them and God.
Oh, if only more folks were willing to “live and let live” over the minutia of details within Faith……
Amen and amen, 11B-Mailclerk.
I don’t think I have ever read a verse in which He instructed his followers never to defend themselves. Quite a few, however, do seem to support it. I suspect from the pragmatic quality of His teachings (i.e ‘render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s’ for instance) He would probably say ‘if the world is full of madmen intending you harm, any idiot would take reasonable precautions. I see no conflict.
My personal belief is that there should be armed individuals within security in every Christian church. Concealed is best, of course, if the laws allow.
halberds and pikes lend a nice traditional touch
http://www.armfor.uscourts.gov/newcaaf/journal/2014Jrnl/2014Mar.htm
Repeal of BCD denied, Mar 10, 2014
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE ARMED FORCES
DAILY JOURNAL
No. 14-119
Monday, March 10, 2014
PETITIONS FOR GRANT OF REVIEW DENIED
No. 14-0313/AR. U.S. v. Christopher R. DARBYSHIRE. CCA 20110026.
No. 14-0377/AR. U.S. v. Danewood L. KIRKPATRICK. CCA 20100716.
No. 14-0385/AF. U.S. v. Jeffrey S. WEBSTER. CCA S32176.
No. 14-0387/AF. U.S. v. Devin P. KELLEY. CCA 38267.
No. 14-0390/AR. U.S. v. Ronald W. PERRY. CCA 20120815.
No. 14-0391/AR. U.S. v. Ashlee N. BERRY. CCA 20120085.
No. 14-0393/AR. U.S. v. Ryfeal D. CHAMBERS. CCA 20121160.
PETITIONS FOR GRANT OF REVIEW FILED
No. 14-0446/AR. U.S. v. Ikejoe E. TIMBREZA. CCA 20120722.
No. 14-0447/AR. U.S. v. Stephen C. PANTOJA. CCA 20120030.
PETITIONS FOR RECONSIDERATION DENIED
No. 14-0049/AR. U.S. v. Robert A. WARREN. CCA 20100914. On consideration of Appellant’s petition for reconsideration of the Court’s order issued on February 3, 2014, it is ordered that said petition is hereby denied.
INTERLOCUTORY ORDERS
No. 14-0411/AF. U.S. v. Joseph W. YANEZ. CCA 38181. Appellant’s second motion to extend time to file the supplement to the petition for grant of review granted up to and including March 31, 2014.
A blog reports he was discharged/court martial for possession of child pornography.
https://70news.wordpress.com/2017/11/06/antifa-texas-church-shooter-david-patrick-kelley-a-left-wing-but-antifa-rumor-yet-to-be-confirmed/
Almost certainly not. Had it been that, he’d still be in Leavenworth, if similar cases are any indication.
that is what I thought when I read it, too.
So if he was discharged with a BCD, he was not prohibited from owning firearms per ATF.
https://regulations.atf.gov/478-32/2016-12100#478-32
It looks like only a Dishonorable bars firearm possession.
At least he’s taking a dirt nap now, we don’t have to hear all the mitigating bullshit these fuckers come up with when they go to trial.
Unless the discharge arose from domestic violence charges, in which case we would be prohibited.
Not necessarily. I seen to remember having this discussion with one of our military lawyer commenters before, and as I recall it’s not quite that clear-cut. He could have received a BCD instead of a DD but still have committed a military crime that qualifies as a felony under Federal law. That would also be relevant regarding his ability to purchase or possession of firearms. Federal law defines a felony as a crime for which the maximum sentence is in excess of one year. See 18 USC 3559. The sentence received isn’t the determining factor – the maximum sentence one could have received governs. As we regrettably saw in Bergdahl the Ass’s case, a court-martial isn’t required to impose the maximum sentence on conviction. The maximum sentence possible for his crime and the type of court martial he received thus both become relevant. Other sources I’ve seen indicate the individual was court-martialed for assaulting his wife and child in 2012, and was discharged in 2014. His sentence was reportedly 12 months confinement and a BCD. That sentence could have been adjudged by either a Special or General Court-Martial. If he received it from a Special Court-Martial, under 18 USC 3559 it would appear to be a misdemeanor – because a Special Court Martial could not have given him “more than one year” as a sentence (12 months is the limit for a Special Court Martial). However, if he was convicted by a General Court Martial, as I understand it the crime would indeed be classified as a felony – since the crime could have resulted in a longer sentence, but the judge opted to give him less than the max. The reported facts here indicate he was convicted of a form of assault other than simple assault on his wife (simple assault has a maximum sentence under the MCM of less than 12 months). Most other and more serious forms of assault defined by the UCMJ have maximum sentences over the 1 year limit. I couldn’t find any that had a 12 month max. My guess is he got the… Read more »
ATF Form 4473. 11. g and 11. i
He might beat the DD question but the domestic violence question is a slam dunk.
I was specifically addressing the “BCD means not a felony” issue in my remarks to RM3(SS) above. Regarding the Lautenberg issue, that would be my reading as well – his conviction sure as hell seems to me to qualify under Federal law as “misdemeanor domestic violence” based on how Federal law defines the crime. But I’m no lawyer, so there may be some way around that I don’t know about.
Good analysis, as usual, Hondo.
What sticks out is that the discharge and criminal charges were indeed for domestic violence. Sounds like they may have only used the violence against the child for the discharge proceedings, from a reporting source that s generally accurate – however, it’s still a bit early to know for sure. If true, they may have left the charges of violence against the wife out of the dismissal hearing while the criminal charges remained? Either way, it only takes one for the discharge and ineligibility to own/possess firearms legally.
Did anyone positively determine when he acquired the weapon? If he owned it before enlistment, for example, none of the details of the Discharge would impact the prior acquisition. (Lawful retention, is another matter.)
Purchased April 2016 at an Academy store (very large reputable chain of sporting goods stores, like Dick’s or several others.) Anything but a hole in the wall.
Assuming that’s correct (and I have no reason to doubt it), we appear to have had a criminal willing to commit yet another felony crime – that of lying on his 4473 – in an attempt to procure a firearm. I cannot believe the guy didn’t know that his USAF court-martial conviction was a conviction for a domestic violence offense. IMO he knew and simply chose to lie through his teeth.
The USAF also appears to have goofed here, bigtime. There’s no reason that his conviction shouldn’t have been reported to NICS once his conviction was approved by the CA (or at the latest, when his appeal was denied and his discharge became final). Even if reporting is technically voluntary, it’s something that IMO should be routine for virtually all GCM convictions – as well as for SpCM/SCM convictions for crimes meeting the Federal definition of domestic violence. The only exceptions I can see would be for GCM convictions that literally didn’t meet the Federal felony threshold and were also not domestic violence misdemeanors. Those would almost certainly be few and far between.
Unlike states, it’s hard for a part of the Federal government legitimately to claim that complying with Federal law or regulation – or a voluntary request for reporting of this form – is some type of “unfunded mandate”. The Federal government really has no standing to complain about states failing to report if they don’t do it themselves.
And Academy is, in my experience, very conscientious about following the law.
To me it is nothing but the extension of the meism currently being foisted on America by others and those that do not measure up to good societal standards wish to leave their marks on society in ways that regular people are would find abhorrent.
Look at me, here I am !!!!
Narcissistic psychopathology run amok…
kind of like numerous someone’s we have discussed on these very pages and will continue to discuss ad infinitum…