Officer shoots 73-year-old librarian in exercise
Bobo sends us a link to an article about the police department of Punta Gorda, Florida who were demonstrating a “Shoot, Don’t Shoot” scenario for members of the community.
Mary Knowlton was one of two Citizen Police Academy students chosen to participate in a “shoot/don’t shoot” role-playing situation, Punta Gorda police said. The demonstration was supposed to instruct the class about making decisions “using simulated lethal force,” according to Chief Thomas Lewis.
Knowlton was “mistakenly struck” with a live round during the lesson’s “first scenario,” the department said.
She was rushed from the police department to Lee Memorial Hospital where she was pronounced dead, PGPD said.
Yeah, she wasn’t “mistakenly struck” – it was careless, not a mistake. Like I told Bobo, I’ve been shooting blanks at people for decades for MILES training and never once have I carelessly shot someone with live ammo. In all of the thousands of people I’ve supervised in similar situations, I’ve never heard of that happening. I’m not special – I’m just careful and I don’t want to kill people who don’t need killin’.
Category: Dumbass Bullshit
I sense a “wrongful death” settlement in the future.
That is just flat smack dab unadulterated stupid.
That’s PATHETIC!
I am shaking my head over this. WTF was this officer doing with a live round in his weapon during an exercise? If it was a “live fire” exercise WTF was the lady doing that would put her in the line of fire? This has got to top the stupid chart.
So ‘knowingly flying a plane on empty and crashing, then blaming the manufacturer for not telling you to make sure there is gas in the plane before flying’ is below this one?
Yes.
But only Police can be trusted with guns!
Beat me to it, brother!
No such thing as a “accidental Discharge “. As Clint Smith of thunder ranch training facility has stated in his writings It is a “Negligent Discharge ” and should never ever happen. So sad.
Also DA terminology nowadays – “Negligent”
An accidental discharge is the result of a mechanical failure.
A negligent discharge is the result of human stupidity.
I never use the terms Accidental or Negligent in connection with a discharge of a firearm. I always call it a “Dumb-Ass Discharge” because that is exactly what it is. A Dumb-Ass mistake that results in a round going off when it is not supposed to.
WTF?
More deadly complacency with weapons from trained personnel who should definitely know better. Weapon(s) loaded with live rounds in the classroom. What could possibly go wrong.
“Mistakenly struck.” My dyin’ ass.
Criminal negligence.
An accident is being hit by a meteorite. Negligence is shooting someone with a ‘loaded with blanks’ handgun. Words stronger than ‘negligence’ probably apply.
drop the mag, THEN cycle the action…
I am not a certified instructor, just a gun nut who takes his hobby seriously. And I can write six single-spaced pages on how this fuckup was completely preventable, how Punta Gorda PD must be a rolling clusterfuck of a department, how a drill involving LE pointing actual weapons (loaded or otherwise) at people is inexcusably stupid, and how the guys responsible are fucking retards.
“Highly-trained professionals” my Black Irish ass. I learned how not to do that shit when I was seven years old. That’s why, despite extensive time spent handling loaded firearms of all types in the 25 years since then, I’ve never had a single negligent discharge. Not one. I don’t pick up a weapon without brass-checking it, even if I just set it down. I always know if there’s anything besides air in the chamber AND magazine. And I sure as fuck don’t ever point a weapon, empty or otherwise, at anything I’m not willing to KILL.
I pray this lady makes a quick recovery, and that every dickhead involved in this shitshow from Occifer Numbnuts who didn’t clear his weapon–or just say “no”–to Chief Dipshit who signed off on it gets fed to the gators.
Shit, missed the “pronounced dead” part at the end.
Charge ’em with murder, then feed ’em to the gators. Dumb fucks…
TOW:
FYI, the lady that was shot was killed.
Hopefully some heads will roll at PGPD as a result of this reckless bullshit.
T O W…your prayer that this lady makes a quick recovery in completely understandable. My guess is that is about as likely to happen as her being a virgin and giving birth to Siamese twins…while riding the roller coaster that the kid was decapitated on. All while she snacks on a Big Mac.
Man, I hope you know I’m just putting you on. She was pronounced dead when she arrived at the hospital. Your thought was understood as sincere. It’s just that I have a warped mind.
Yeah, honestly I was shaking my head so much with disgust at the sheer magnitude of fucktardery exhibited in this incident that I completely missed that part until I reread the article afterwards. There’s a special part of Hell reserved for these idiots.
See – your failure to read the bit about her being deceased was a mistake. Unless you were being aid to read each and every word. Then you would nave been negligent.
(Add a “p” in there somewhere.)
Why is it even necessary to shoot blanks at a 73 year old librarian? Wouldn’t a blue plastic “pistol” suffice for this type of demonstration? Guns don’t scare me, but I cannot imagine the logic or wisdom that has police officers pointing their service weapons at civilian volunteers Kama regardless of chamber status. To me that in itself violates the first rule of firearms training.
Exactly. Real firearms of any kind have no place in this type of training. That’s why they make training props. “Practice how you play” stops long before old ladies start getting shot.
G D C…Likely lost in all this is the dramatic roles certain people get off on while playing these make believe scenarios. My wife works at a hospital. Every so often they run through a drill with a mock disaster. There are a couple of women in particular who live for the day when they can “showcase” their acting? ability. These women carry on, scream and cry as if they had indeed been in a bomb blast or something similar. Guess it’s necessary to play it that far. But to see people like that going off into some fantasy world, it boggles the mind the so-called wannabee heroes who try to be so convincing with their imaginary wounds from the git go. Many of them are would-be POSERS.
Yup.
In training of this nature with civilians, no actual firearms, and especially no loaded actual firearms, until safely positioned on the range/firing line.
This entire incident was stupid beyond belief.
Methinks the training officer and whoever else was responsible for planning this event also need to be held accountable.
If there was a Safety Officer on site, he (she?) needs to be looked at too.
As for the officer? Yeah, he needs to see his day in court.
I cannot defend Trump, and this is not an attempt to do so. But is anyone else troubled that by invoking the Second Amendment one is apparently calling for political assassination (according to the left and mainstream media)? I find that troubling.
Again, not defending Trump or presuming to know what thought were rattling around in his head.
I’m not defending Trump either, but I agree with you that it’s troubling that The Left and their media lapdogs are getting away with trying to characterize Trump’s statement regarding the Second Amendment as some kind of call for assassination.
It’s nonsense; that’s clearly not what he said.
If the Repubs had nominated Sister Teresa, the press and the dems would be running around trying to prove she was the worst person ever.
Given that Trump is already close to that, the press is not having to scramble much. Of course a responsible press would be busy showing us how Hillary is worse.
Am I the only one who has looked at the nominees and wondered if both parties were trying to lose?
^WORD!
No, you’re not the only one.
I’m pretty sure the Democrats are going to win this election – it’ll take a minor miracle at this point for that to change. Possible, but unlikely.
I’m not sure that’s the best course of action for the Democrats / liberals. Frankly, having such deplorable candidates -as in their actual unfavorability ratings- means there’s going to be considerable grievances on both sides for the next four years, and that galvanizes opposition more than likability galvanizes support.
In other words, I think whoever wins, the opposition is going to have so much ammunition over the course of the next few years that it may actually be better, long term, to lose this election rather so you win the next few, not win those and lose the next few.
That might be more true for the Democrats, though. I expect when Trump loses, he won’t keep his mouth shut and the annoyance people will have with Clinton will be divided between the both of them.
They say a President ages greatly in his first term. This year that’s going to apply to the American people instead.
I can see it both ways. Talking about the Second Amendment is fine. Saying voters for whom the Second Amendment is important need to get out and vote or else Mrs. Clinton will win is fine.
However, it’s questionable when you say, “If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is.”
The trouble is the uncertainty with the wording – the second sentence seems predicated on the first, meaning (to many) that maybe there’s something 2A people -aka, people with guns- can do if she gets to pick her judges. That, obviously, is pretty fucking bad.
However, if you take it as a normal Trump-ism of not being quite clear and simply decouple the sentence to make it mean that 2A people need to get out and vote, it’s fine.
Oddly enough, I’d guess interpretations fall pretty broadly along party lines. Though I’d give the edge to people interpreting it as a throw-away (that is, not-really-intended) threat over people saying he just means you’ve got to vote. If you doubt that, look at the speech and the reaction of the people behind him. There’s plenty of, “Whoa, did he just say that?”, which isn’t exactly the kind of reaction you get from encouraging people to vote.
I don’t think Mr. Trump actually means any sort of real threat against Mrs. Clinton or judges, he’s just doing his usual thing of opening his mouth and saying things, a good percentage of which are stupid.
That’s my take. Obviously others disagree.
I just find it odd that someone who stands with the 2nd Amendment ie. the law of the land ie. a recognized “natural right” s “civil right” is now cast as an extremist. Similarly, someone who stands with the First Amendment could be accused promoting honor killings by those that practice the religion of peace , freely . I would think if the 2nd Amendment was so heinous and offensive as to be a sanction for political assassination that there would be a serious attempt to repeal it. However no such attempt is evident. I see the current reaction to Trump’s comments as just one more of a thousand cuts.
There. Is. No. Legitimate. Excuse. None!
This was a negligent act by those who are paid to know better.
I’ve never handled an unloaded firearm. If the damn thing is laid on a table in 20 pieces, ready for a cleaning, I MIGHT put down my guard. What happened is criminal.
It is inconceivable to me that a police officer pointed a firearm at someone–anyone!–during a demonstration and pulled the trigger. Now, make that someone a civilian who is not even a member of the department and it is simply something I cannot grasp. I’m not even going to say that the weapon should have been cleared by at least one other officer. It should never had been pointed at that lady at all, no matter how many times it might have been cleared. In this case, though, it certainly wasn’t. Yes, it’s negligence and yes it resulted in death and yes the stupid bastard should be criminally charged.
Gun Nutz should stop gathering in groups and inviting innocent unsuspecting people into their deadly fetish.
The Dewey Decimal system says she could have looked up everything she needed to know under 683, and done it in the safety of a gun free public library.
I just wish gun crazed loons would kill responsibly.
Ahhh, that was a Police officer, not a civilian. Gun Nutz? Do you call poor black people the “N” word? Do you call Hispanic People “Spics”, do you call poor white people “White Trash”?
That is a rather bigoted term to be using, seeing as you say that you are such an educated and compassionate person.
This was a police officer, armed by the state to enforce laws, pointing a weapon at a civilian during a demonstration and pulling the trigger. I have been shooting firearms for 40 years, I have NEVER pointed a firearm at ANYONE unless I was going to shoot them. I have been going to ranges for that long and have NEVER seen anyone pointing a weapon at another person or pulling the trigger. On that same note, none of the ranges I belong to have had a death, EVER!
You are always chiding us about how low and irresponsible we are. How about heeding your own words and stop being a Bigoted Academic.
Whoa. That’s a low blow. Hardin an academic? Really? You fight dirty.
Really, that is completely uncalled for.
When did I ever say I was educated or compassionate? I am appalled at these baseless accusations.
Ok, so I might be sober a bit more often than Jonn and I don’t sport a pony tail like that Hobo guy, but compassionate?
Just because this trigger happy gun loon doesn’t like being stereotyped as a Gun Nut he has to bring up my disdain for people who have a skin tone disability?
Oh, he left out Gook…never trusted people who were rice propelled.
(FYI, Dave Hardin comments here frequently. I think he was being a smart-ass with his last one.)
I’m thinking that would be a reasonably safe bet. (smile)
Gotcha. Dave Hardin is our resident sarcasm expert. 😛
Our Professor Emeritus of Sarcasm. Attaboy, Dave!
It is so much more fun not to explain. And, yes, I believe I can speak for Dave in answer to Jack’s questions, “Do you call poor black people the “N” word? Do you call Hispanic People “Spics”, do you call poor white people “White Trash”?”
Hey Jack. How come it’s the N word but not the S word or WT? Dave wants to know.
I know this guy, he is bad news. He once started a petition to abolish tapioca pudding in mess halls.
He was recently caught planting American flags in his neighbors yards during the 4th of July weekend.
Rumor has it that he is controlled by a former Soviet who forces him to live as if there is still an Iron Curtain.
He has been training his dog to attack people who are looking for Pokemon…with limited success I might add.
Besides all that…he is an Atheist. Godless heathen celebrates every Sunday by pissing on Allah. (While facing East of course.)
Bad news all the way around, Jonn only puts up with him because he has the worlds largest collection of midget porn.
Shoot/Don’t Shoot is a standard exercise in which, to my experience, every trainee screws up, usually by shooting a good guy or failing to shoot a bad guy who is posing an immediate threat of deadly harm. The learning occurs by screwing up. Others who have undergone this type of training may have had other experiences, but the nature of the lesson is that errors occur–BETTER HERE THAN IN THE REAL WORLD, is the refrain.
apparently the entire team missed that last point. Lots of negligence – criminal negligence – to share around, from the police chief on down.
Why was this done with real weapons and live ammo, and not with water guns and colored water? Or airsoft paintball weapons?
My two cents: the only negligent discharges I’ve ever heard of resulted in pregnancies.
This was not a negligent discharge, but it was a fine example of sheer stupidity in a public setting.
I see two shames in this. The greatest is that this lady is dead for no good reason except stupidity.
The other will be Obama and Hillary calling for more gun control in 3…2…1, even though it was a Police Officer who caused the wrongful death. For them, any lame excuse to take guns from people is a valid reason.
And one last thing. I don’t want to hear that accident shit either.
Were you holding the firearm? Yes.
Did anyone force you to hold that firearm? No.
Was it holstered? Initially, yes.
Did you unholster it? Yes.
Did you draw it as if to fire? Yes.
Did you aim it? Yes.
Did you aim it at a human being? Yes.
Was your finger on the trigger as you aimed it at a human being? Yes.
Did you fire? Yes.
Was your target struck by the bullet that was fired? Yes.
What do you have to say for yourself?
Um. It was an accident.
I’d like to know what the safety parameters were before the exercise kicked off?
Was there a safety brief?
Did the officer even bother to clear his weapon before he stepped off?
(Rhetorical questions…)
I’m gonna go with “We’ve done this a million times before, we don’t need all of that time consuming safety crap”.
Air Cav, I think the response to the last question was closer to, “aw shit, I am so screwed”.
He needs a second negligent discharge closer to home. Cranial Ventilation syndrome. Who the hell would want this cross eyed idiot on their Police Force.
I’ve been around three separate incidents in the Army where live ammo was mixed with blanks. One time I would have been at the business end of an M60 and may have died if it weren’t for one sharp eyed fellow trainee. The Army is not immune to issues like this and you have to always be vigilant.
I know it happened in the 101st in the 90’s. A unit was conducting near ambush training and live ammo got mixed up with blank. I have no idea how nobody got hurt when the 240s opened up.
Here we go again… I don’t want to make light of this but WTF Over!
Chief: “Let’s have a touchy feely activity to boost morale and improve our image in the community…”
Training Officer: “We’ll invite some of out elderly wannabee cops from Citizen Police Academy grads and run through some drills…”
Chief: “Yeah that sounds good… put Deputy Fife in charge and make sure the media is there… I’ll be at the golf course.”
Duffleblog Headlines: “Deputy Fife Shoots Citizen with His Single Live Round During Training Exercise – Awarded Medal for First Line of Duty Kill”
Mainstream Media: “Dems Push for Ban on Weapons and Demand State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies demilitarize”
Live rounds, for a community dog-and-pony?
WTF, O?
Usually hesitant to criticize if I was not there and/or have never worn the shoes in question (LE, in this case), but I cannot figure the ‘why’ when it comes to live ammo in this case.
My non-LE fish brain tells me the best damn way to show the public ‘what it’s all about’ is put them in whatever ‘shoot/don’t shoot’ simulator they have available, with an RSO at their elbow.
But that’s just me.
I wonder if anybody gets de-certified for this.
Am I a bad guy for being concerned that she was black and that the blm idiots will be all over it?/sarc
Seriously, a lot of stoopid happened there, and the dumbass holding a real fun should be beaten soundly and THEN fired. Dumbass…
There is so much stupid in this story that it would take much to long to itemize them all. Still, kudos to everyone who has hit the most obvious of them.
The advice and/or order to never unholster your sidearm unless you intend to shoot someone with it keeps playing in my mind. Either this occifer never heard them or simply ignored those same words.
Not much for lawsuits, but this is one case that begs for a few. Nothing will give back this woman her life, but the department and individuals who took it from her should pay as certainly as any street thug should had it been a criminal who took her life.
I agree, unfortunately an insurance company and taxpayers will be the ones to pay. If this was my community the officers involved and chief would get awards, bonuses AND then be forced to retire with clean records. As a former LEO, it was drilled into us constantly, don’t draw of point that weapon at ANYTHING you don’t want to shot.
This is another example of why very few things frighten me more than someone with an “empty” weapon. Especially when they act as if it is empty.
On a lighter note, I am trying to figure out what kind of scenario calls for shooting a 73 year old librarian. Or did he screw that part up, too?
Like Jonn, I also trained many soldiers/ROTC with the MILES device (just gotta love the “God Gun”).
My range safety NCO’s were always tasked to be the ONLY ones with attaching the blank adapters AND loading the mags with blanks for the troops. This was to ensure that a live round never became accidentally part of the equation. NEVER did we have an issue.
If the cops didn’t have “dummy guns” available, that why didn’t they at least have this device?
They are called a “Empty Chamber Indicator” (all of my firearms have them), cost about a $1.00 each, and are required at many civilian ranges.
Also, did they have a safety officer to clear the firearms?
Stupis is as stupid does!!
Damn fat fingers!!!
Stupis=Stupid
The employment of every swinging dick and sucking hole in that dept needs to be rethought.
You can’t get a situation as described above without some serious f***tardism in the leadership and such a seriously f***tarded leadership can’t possibly hire and train a competent force.
#Librarianlivesmatter.
I fully expect to see librarians across the country protesting and hollering “shhh” at the tops of their lungs.
/sarc off/
Tragic event and prayers for her family. There is NO such thing as an accident where guns are involved. Unsafe act, unsafe condition, negligence.
More than a few asses need to be in a sling over this, TOTALLY inexcusable.
The dept has 16 patrol officers, two lieutenants, a captain, and a chief. They are all very sorry. Please accept their apologies.
I can see a charge of Manslaughter or Negligent Homicide in that Oofiser’s future regardless of apology.
Is one of the LT’s named Chevalier? Just brainstorming.
Can not imagine the shitstorm that would be raging right now had that lady been black….
It’s MURDER, not sure what degree.
NO live ammo should have even been in the room IF you are doing a scenario like this. NONE in the room, none on the participants, none in their ammo pouches, none nowhere ! ! WTF.
Here’s some background on the officer who shot the retired librarian.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/punta-gorda-cop-who-shot-and-killed-librarian-had-been-ousted-by-miramar/2289035
So in other words, another Hard-on who thinks a Cops job is to bust balls and fuck with Citizens. Real dick, riding a bike at night gets you torn up by a Police Dog. Real Good escalation of force there.
Thanks for that link. That vid made me cringe. Not saying that the little douche-pickle didn’t deserve SOME of what he got, the officer was clearly enjoying himself watching, and let that shit go on way too long. The dog actually ate part of his armpit and the kid spent two weeks in the hospital with numerous surgeries.
This same event happened in 2005 on my second day as a police officer. The training sergeant at the academy was teaching weapons retention and defensive tactics. He ended up shooting a recruit in the chest. She died right there in her boyfriend’s arms. Her boyfriend being a close personal friend of mine and a SFC in the National Guard. That guy wasn’t charged, just demoted, removed form training, given a desk job, etc.
Why either one of them wasn’t using a blue gun, I don’t know. They got complacent and broke two of the three big rules of firearm handling.
Now that I’ve been a cop for 11 years I see it again and just don’t understand it this time either. It looks like manslaughter to me. There was no intent, but his criminal negligence caused her death.
You didn’t but I will. The instructor who killed Police Recruit Tara Drummond at the North Central Georgia Law Enforcement Academy in 2005 was Albert Jackson. Out of disgust, the chief of the small dept that Drummond was a part of quit the academy’s advisory out of disgust, saying, “I was extremely dissatisfied with the lack of responsibility and accountability that Dr. Morgan exhibited during the Drummond incident.” That Dr Morgan had ZERO police experience.
As for Albert Jackson, NO CRIMINAL charges resulted, despite the fact that he admitted to violating policies and procedures by, among other things, using his own service weapon at the training, carrying live ammo in the facility, and instructing (forcefully, I might add) trainees to point their weapons at one another. He left the job after shooting Tara and later was hired as a police officer by Holly Springs, GA PD. After that story broke on local news, he quit. Asshole.
Planet Ord: I have no idea what, if any dept, you may be with today or were with in 2005. The Georgia training facility contracts with many, many departments in state and out to train officers. I made sure of this before I posted any info that might ID you in any way.
that’s OK, you don’t identify who the hell Dr. Morgan is either or his role in that. Is he the comics page doctor?
David. First, fuck you. Second, Dr. Carole Morgan was the director of the North Central Georgia Law Enforcement Academy.
He’s probably a security guard someplace. Probably a supervisor, given his experience. In my brief career as a security guard I met a number of former LEOs and John Wayne/Dirty Harry wannabees.
Another absolutely easily avoided dumb-as-fuck tragedy. The investigation can be found here: http://www.degrata.com/pdf/Cobb_Co_shooting_investigation.pdf
FTA: “The students stated they were pointing their weapons at the wall to avoid direct aim at their classmates. Sgt Jackson stated that the the students needed to experience pointing their weapon at another person.” Umm what? NO!
Although, I guess I have less of a problem pointing a weapon at another person than another person pointing a weapon at me. Jeez. So WTF was Dr Jackson? Coundn’t find shit on him. Assuming the director.
Jackson was the training officer–senior firearms instructor– who shot the recruit. The Ph. D (Morgan) was the head of the training academy where the recruit was shot.
When I heard this story it reminded of a similar one I heard of an Active shooter drill where a LEO discharged a live round into the ceiling only thank God.
I ran dozens of ranges when I was in the Army, from .38 pistol (yeah, I am that old) to claymore. The level of incompetence here is mind blowing. A live weapon on a scenario range? Why was it even there on the range? Why weren’t they checked prior? Why were any actual weapons capable of firing live rounds anywhere near the range? The questions just go on.
From the greatest hits album
https://youtu.be/nuR5A6IcUbg
My weapon of choice remains a .38 revolver w/ +P ammo. I know I may be outgunned one day but I have every confidence that my weapon will not cause me a problem, that I will not drop my speedloader, and that I will hit what I am aiming at.
You have a weapon with adequate power if you place your shots well, faster recovery time shot to shot than most, and if there’s a misfire the ability to squeeze the trigger and cycle a new round and chamber into position with only one hand. What’s not to like?