Navy blames sailors for capture by Iran
The Associated Press reports that the Navy is blaming the ten sailors for their capture by Iranian forces in the Persian Gulf;
They also showed a remarkable lack of curiosity about potential dangers in one of the world’s more dangerous waterways, according to an in-depth Navy investigation.
In deviating from their planned Persian Gulf route from Kuwait to Bahrain — without asking approval or notifying superiors — they passed an island to their east and wondered whether it might be Saudi territory, rocks or oil platforms. The crews of both boats consulted their navigation systems, which depicted the mass as a small purple dot.
Despite being unsure of their surroundings, the sailors did not adjust their on-board navigation displays to enlarge the purple dot; if they had, they would have seen that it was labeled Farsi Island, a well-known base for the Iran Revolutionary Guard Corps Navy.
CNN reported that the sailors on the scene weren’t the only culpable parties in the debacle;
“This incident was the result of failed leadership at multiple levels from the tactical to the operational,” investigators wrote in the detailed, partially redacted, report.
The report found the crews were poorly prepared, their boats not properly maintained, communication almost entirely lacking, and their conduct after being captured by the Iranians wasn’t up to military standards.
According to Reuters, at least one of the sailors violated his Code of Conduct when he gave information to his captors that he wasn’t authorized to divulge;
[The report] said some of the 10 crew members gave away capabilities of their vessels, one of them disclosing his vessel’s potential speed and suggesting it was on a “presence” mission to demonstrate U.S. military power in the Gulf.
[…]
“It is clear that some, if not all, crew members provided at least some information to interrogators beyond name, rank, service number and date of birth,” the report said.
Yeah, it is a failure of leadership – since most of the country doesn’t realize that we’re still at war and most don’t understand that Iran declared war against us and that’s been going on for 37 years.
Thanks to MustangCryppie for the links.
Category: Terror War
Poop rolls down hill.
Or crashes in corn fields.
NJP is coming for you. Hope it hits you in the Balls and Wallet pretty hard.
Maybe the large clang of the Sally Port gate will make you shit your pants and give you some real regret.
3 days Bread and Water.
This is what happens when you take a fleet sailor that comes from shore duty and put them in a ground warfare type unit and train them with weapons they have never seen herd or been around for a time. The NECC was supposed to take feet troops and do a close loop system and keep them in the NECC. They were suppose to go to sea NECC Sea duty unit get their EXW device and then would go shore, like EOD or NSW and even CBMU’s but know the detailer tells them go there one time get EXW then leave. That’s some of the problem they had to many fleet rates and not enough OF7 and EOD types that understand combat and the dangers that come with it. We told them when they started they needed EOD chiefs and Seabee chiefs in the mix and that would help there mind set. Well they didn’t take the advice from the chiefs that’s half the problem.
The only problem with that is we would have been relieved for being to harsh on the box kickers, pencil pushers and the non-Fleet Marine pecker checkers.
Seen it a thousand times when doing combined Transition. Always Bad-Day no hack. Then show up the next day as scooter trash.
PH’s were the worst. Dump, weak and always up some brass’s ass.
Roger that NECCSEABEECPO. When I reached E-5, I quickly learned to appreciate our senior NCO’s, particularly the E-9’s who mentored me. A few years later on a joint assignment I worked directly for a Master Chief and he was one of the top people I ever worked for. Those experiences paid dividends when I became a WO.
I thought these were SWCC types. They are supposed to be trained for this shit. Even so, Code of Conduct was hammered on us before we went overseas. Hell I still remember it from Basic training 35 years ago.
No,they are fleet with at least two EOD,and sometimes atleast one if not two Seabees.The officer us a SPECOPS warfare with jump and has been to level C SERE and the crew level B,They should have been doing that in Orr deployment and go over it every time on a patrol brief,we see how that went. Fleet sailors do brown water work for three years,you have to do that type of shit all the time
Pre-deployment brief
Not a proud moment for our Navy.
Lots of blame to go around, but I really hope that LT is cashiered. He is an embarrassment.
Ya, so much for Navy SPECOPS officer qualifications right. You do know he is one of those guys and the 3 senior officers were all EOD officers just saying. This shit pisses me off as we belong to that community NECC and a lot of us told them not to bring straight fleet rates into this type of small unit warfare they needed to put more Bees or support that had been with Bees.
I have a HUGE amount of respect for all EOD and SPECWAR guys. That makes this even more mystifying and painful to watch unfold.
I do to, the problem is they don’t run regular troops and they trust to much and with all do respect to them but I’ve trained with them and we knew more about patrol orders and how to write and do a SMEAC and how to use BAMCIS,mission planning 101. They needed more if us but our higher said no and big Navy NECC new it all and I believe that is why we just did our thing and let them do there’s well here we are.
Similar issues in the Army:
“Sir, please don’t go into that Madrasa, it is a holy site. Its not a mosque, but its a religious school. Please? Stop? Police?”
A decade or so ago, the active Civil Affairs battalion lost a lot of its SF enlisted. So what did they do to replace them? Bring an 11B/C E-7, a 68W E-7 and an Engineer E-7 together with a young captain and say, “here’s your new team, good luck doing CA in that country as a 4-man team!” Regardless of the CA training they went through prior to doing missions, you had 15ish years of conventional processing set in to their brains.
In Afghanistan, we had Platoon Leaders and Sergeants who had a couple hours of classes about face to face engagements and tried to do CA. They were great to work with, but you don’t just run out and start doing this kind of stuff like its no big deal.
I don’t think they fully comprehended what they were in for getting on these boats and taking a tour.
Exactly you have to live and breathE in that world, you cant just get a combat mind set in 3 years and that is what the Navy was doing. I do know from some still in the know that they are coming to us now.
Amen on your comments, Mustang Cryppie… a very ugly moment for the Navy and the USA.
Well….I still blame those darn white socks.
I’m surprised they didn’t blame George Bush
They haven’t YET and I don’t put that past them. I wonder how much more shit is gonna fly out of the fan from this?
The facts–the few that we know, anyway–don’t speak well of this crew. I imagine that we will have POW medal requests soon. I have no idea whether these people qualify for POW status but, if they do, I will laugh heartily.
How about POS medals instead?
This is not the same thing as the Pueblo incident. Lousy navigators? Don’t know how to read nav charts? Don’t know what is what, or where they’re going?
If that’s the kind of training the Navy is handing out now, Athena help us. We’re deep in it.
I would be ashamed to wear a POW medal for that.
Reminds me of an EP-3E pilot who flew missions during the first Gulf War. After the war, there was a feeding frenzy WRT medals. Air Medals, NCM’s with combat V’s, etc. Non-rates were going to look like Mexican generals.
Anyway, from what I was told by guys and gals who were there, those birds were never under any threat of attack. When the Air Medals were awarded, this pilot turned it down flat. His father had flown multiple sorties over North Vietnam and he said he couldn’t look him in the eye ever again if he took it. My respect for him went up 1000%.
Same situation here. If they are given the POW medal I’ll be watching to see if any of them have the integrity to turn it down. Hope there are some.
Reminds me of the three guys in the balkans who got captured in Serbia because they drove the down the wrong road to go eat at a restaurant. As I recall, they received POW medals along with a couple others before they went home.
They were Army Cab scouts. At least their team leader had his ass kicked.
Is there anyone who looks at that pic and doesn’t get pissed off and want to kick the shit out of something? Anyone?
Yes. No words for this.
Don’t get me started.
It would be my personal pleasure to “Train” these Sailors back into “Standards”.
A Mini Motivation Tour would do these individuals a world of “good”.
There was always a good time had on
Senior Chief Saturday, you know one of the days everybody is on Liberty.
Yes. It’s worse since we have a government that apologized after the incident. It makes me want to see some sunk Iranian ships. They need to be taught a lesson.
I’d put the fear of God in the LT to start with… and I wouldn’t give a flying fuck about his feelings!
I absolutely HATE that picture.
I was taught back in the dark ages at the Ft Benning School for aspiring 2LTs that the CO is responsible for everything his troops do or fail to do.
That lesson has not changed, except for our POTUS who blamed Bush for the first 7 years of his administration.
U.S. Navy, 1813:
U.S. Navy, 2016:
Sad! Not nice!
And whatever happened to this?
I’ve said this before. Iran has done a good job of catching infiltrators. This has been going on for year. That does not justify this disaster, though. It’s obvious this particular group was ATFU.
Shit like this is what happens when you start treating evolutions as routine. Leads to complacency, which leads to epic fuck ups.
Well, frankly, I blame Raymie Mabelbus for this, along with that gender bender Ash Carter. The military hasn’t been about military training, including ocean-going navigation, for what – 7.5 years now? No, it’s been all about feelz goodz, open shitter bays, showering with nonfriends, and ‘can’t we all just get along’.
This is not the Navy I knew. I do hope that it is not beyond repair.
Here’s a link that directs to an interesting read regarding this event. Parts of it is redacted. I get the gist of what happened and can draw my own conclusions.
Maybe one of the resident expert sailors can provide some insight. I’d be interested to read the comments.
(The .pdf can be downloaded).
https://news.usni.org/2016/06/30/document-summary-u-s-navy-investigation-farsi-island-incident
I scanned the Exec Summary, and all I can say is this was a goatfuck from the word go.
Words fail me. And I do hope that the officer (who I’m assuming was in charge of 802) gets tossed out on his ass.
Mongolian clusterfuck of epic proportions… and the only one that had a set of balls to try and do something was the #2 gunner that set off an emergency beacon.
The sailors were doomed no matter what they did. 1. Option A- Surrender to the Iranians…and we all know what happened there. 2. Option B- Open up with their weapons, sink the Iranians, machine gun the survivors and return to Port victorious…..Only to be Court-Martialed for engaging in hostilities. What I don’t understand is what are the rules of engagement? Do they have ammo on board for all their organic weapons? Does the US Navy identify the Iranians as the Enemy? I’m much more sympathetic to the sailors, because I’ve had a couple of times where I’ve led units over borders or been where I wasn’t supposed to be- all prior to GPS. Desert Storm: My whole battalion had pretty much no accurate idea of where we where on a map for most of the time. Our level of accuracy was within 3 miles. Germany: Years ago I was a 1LT going from Baumholder Germany to Grafenwehr & Hohenfels- leading a convoy on a trip we had done so many times we were on autopilot. We missed the turn off the autobahn and ended up about 100 miles deep into Czechoslovakia (1992-93). I was a bad LT and napping in the back while my driver drove & the Platoon Sergeant navigated. I woke up when the PSG stopped the convoy because we were running low on fuel (!) Yep…from what I put together, he had led the convoy straight thru the Czech Border crossing while the guards waved hello. We had all of our small arms weapons, but no ammo, but what would have happened if the border guards had made an issue of it? Anyway, we ended up swapping boxes of MRE’s with happy Czech villagers for commercial diesel, and some amazing sausage. Eventually made it back to the border where both the German & Czech guards waved hello/goodbye, didn’t bat an eye, just waved us thru and we made it to Grafenwehr without further issue. The Battalion S-3 wanted to know why we were almost 8 hours late, and I just said “traffic”, which was mostly true. The… Read more »
Regarding the land navigation talents of some of the LT’s I served with, the ideal place for them was napping in the back seat.
IMHO non-prior service LT’s have one thing in common with children, they should be seen and not HURT.
Travel restrictions eased when The Wall came down in 89, but i didn’t realize they had eased that much. This sounds like the French checkpoint I used to pass through on the way to Bitch when I was In Pirmasens: an empty sentry box with the drawbar up. Your adventure sounds like something out of “Stripes”
Several folks had mentioned Stripes, and they’re right. But this wasn’t any sort of adverse interaction- they just waved us back & forth thru the border.
But all over Europe they’d taken the border crossing check points down, so we probably benefited a lot from that.
We’d routinely stop at rest stops or gasthouses and not get a second glance.
I could watch the EM 50 smash that effin Gamma Goat all day. God I hated those things. Possibly the biggest POS the Army ever bought.
I’m sympathetic too. These government employees work in an environment where training for war is so lame. If that Co would have ordered an active defense, he would be on trial right now. Guarantee. We are no longer a fighting force.
Well, I probably know 1% of the circumstances, so I’m going to ask this not in hopes of starting a shitstorm, but to get opinions.
First, this was a goatfuck before it began. So many are at fault I would not know where to start. And WTF were some of those dipshits doing with a cell phone? WTF, they need a phone to go on a short float?
Now, what if, just what if, after being boarded and taken hostage, the sailors had refused to raise their hands in a sign of surrender? What if they had basically said ‘fuck you goat fuckers’? What would have been the outcome? I think maybe they would have been roughed up a little, but only a little. The goat humpers wouldn’t want the world to see they were barbarians. Which, of course, they pretty much are. Had they done that, they at least would have gotten some respect both from the camel humpers and American public.
Throwing this out b/c I’m genuinely interested in some input. I know, it’s easy for me to be an armchair quarterback, and I’m not doing that because I’m not advocating they should have done this or that, but asking what if.
Gotta tell you, this was a soup sandwich from the planning stage (if there was a plan) through to the ending. Anything that could have gone wrong, did. Piss poor leadership (if any at all) and sailors who gave it up, IMO, much too easily. I know, I know, I wasn’t there.
Anyway, careers are over as they should be. I’m only hoping some of the junior folks are salvageable. Maybe they had no phones, didn’t reveal information and probably were not in the decision making process.
Thoughts, anyone?
I think the input preceded your questions and comments. To sum them up, this was a huge clusterfuck which resulted in what are supposed to be American fighting men surrendering to some number of Iranians. The apparent lackadaisical approach to encroaching on Iranian waters is speculated to be the logical outcome of years of the Navy putting more emphasis on pc and social engineering matters than it does on training on the very items that made this debacle possible.
Yeah, I think I’m venting b/c I can’t make sense that so much could go so wrong on so many levels. This was little more than disorganized grabass. Anyone in the chain of command of this goatfuck should not have a career. Total embarrassment.
I think they just got complacent, don’t know how, form what I know they just RIPED with the other unit about a month before. This is what the Navy gets when they want everyone to get upward mobility and not stay in communities and jobs. The NECC was created to prevent this, but I think the detailers and Advancement board are to blame as they tell everyone you have to have a diverse career meaning do one job then move on to a different type and this is a big Navy problem not only NECC.I think the fleet example would be like a guy spend time on a frigate and then they tell him to go to a LPD or LPH.
So on the Green side this is what you get, you could a fleet sailor that did his Sea time on a DDG and he is lets say a ET because they use them. This ET goes to shore duty in a office some where for 3 years and then is up for orders and doesn’t want to go to a ship and the detailer says hay you have your surface pin so now you can go to this new thing called coastal Riverine and then get your EXW pin and that will look good on the chiefs board sense you are now a new E-6 and this will give you the diversity the board is looking for. Sorry got off track but yes they usually have ammo.
Some of the SeaBee chiefs and EOD Chiefs tried to tell them this when they formed up the NECC in 2006 and merged all EXW units and took EOD out of NSW.I will say though the SeaBess stayed on their own and watched some of this happen until they were told to get involved by NECC, in around 2010.
Can anyone comment about the ROE for this?
I saw pintle mounted M2’s on the captured boats, but no indicators if ammo was on board.
So did they have the means to resist?
From working and training with them, yes they should have had a full kit and all the ammo needed.
But what about ROE? You can have all the weapons, but if you aren’t allowed to use them, whats the point?
Chief- The sr. officer present was responsible (and I bet you know that)- Bill (USMC-’59-’73)
I am trying to form a response to this situation, and I am still struggling with it.
“Sir, with all due respect to the position and rank you are supposed to be holding, either fight your ship or I will personally twist your cowardly traitorous head off and chuck it at the shitbags. Sir.”
What the (bleep) happened to “Don’t give up the ship!”???
What are we -teaching- our people these days?
As I said way up, I was taught that the CO is responsible for everything his troops do, or fail to do.
Last time I was shot at was in VN so I’m a dinosaur but I have watched units prep for a “battle” at NTC and was impressed with the pre-mission briefs and rock drills that covered what seem to be every conceivable course of action. I would think that the Navy would do the same thing? In today’s techno world, I don’t know how they could get so lost on a body of water (in good weather?) that is so familiar to Navy ops for the last few decades? Complacence?
But as was pointed out, they were screwed no matter what they did. What was the ROE? If there were pre-briefs Ill bet they were told to not piss off the Iranians and ruin Barry’s “treaty”/surrender.
It would seem that the chain of command should be fired.
Yes, we do but that is SeaBees, we do table tops, pre briefs do a SMEAC and use BAMCIS for mission and patrol planning and rehearsals of immediate action drills and in todays world how to destroy CCI gear. They use our books and FM manuals which come form Marine Corps and their warfare pin has all this shit for the EXW qualification boards, so they need to know this shit. They did not do PCC/PCB’s that I know they have to do according to NECC SOP’s. The COC has been replaced, all 3 CO, XO, and command Master Chief.
PCI’S
NECCSEABEECPO, just out of curiosity, what kind of training do the non-Seabee/EOD sailors receive? Is NECC training anything like SWCC?
No, but everyone who joins the NECC for the first time, has to go through a course called ECS (Expeditionary Combat Skills)taught by former SOF and 11B and 0311 infantry,and active SeaBees and EOD oversee the course. This is a basic Expeditionary Combat skills course to give them basic combat and survival skills before they join their command and it is a pass or fail the majority do pass but some do not.The first week is combat survilve, like CLS (Combat Life Saver) CBRNE,Code of Conduct Level B and basic C-IED. The second week is combat skills under standing basics like fields of fire and how to set basic’s on crew serves and defensive type tactics just enough to make you understand the world you are going to is real and you will get more advance training at the command your going to. Weeks 3&4 are all combat shooting, shooting from barriers and combat shooting like transition on the move stuff. The filth week is a combine exercise with all of the training from getting shot with peper spray,to setting up a riot line and pulling some one out and check point or ECP and final mass casualty drill. After this they go to their commands NMCB, EOD, Riverine and Navy Expeditionary logistics (cargo handling) and Dive salvage units and maritime civil Affairs.Now all the personel going to NECC commands and NSW (Navl Special Warfare)support will do this course before they go to their school or follow on command. The EOD and SeaBees will go after they have graduated thier A school course.So in a way this is a screening course as it is pass or fail. Riverine will go through EXW and have to go to either USNIACT (Navy individulae combat traning taught by Army) 4 weeks and or Marine Coprs SOI. Then go to Rivierine Combat Skills course 5 weeks taught by Marines and former Marines. so Rivrine guys would have gone hrough a totaol of 20 weeks of all combat type training. Riverine does the special ops type offensive combat OPS. So I would say they had… Read more »
Thank you. So while they have training, a lot of them don’t necessarily have a “close with and destroy the enemy” mindset?”
The squids own this one, and speaking as an ex-Army guy, I’d be the last to open my yap to rag on them for what happened. Still, there are some specific facts that are hard to explain:
In the first place, if you look at a map of the Persian Gulf, boats taking a logical course from Kuwait to Bahrain should have been nowhere near Farsi Island. Unless I’m missing something, more than 90 percent of the 250 mile transit could have been done with simple dead reckoning on a SSE compass heading. How did they end up 1.5 nautical miles south of Farsi Island, and more than 30 miles off course?
Original reports that one of the boats was dead in the water at the time the Iranians showed up is apparently a non-starter. According to the document pointed out by USMCMSgt(Ret) above, at no time was the boat with the hydraulic leak without power. The second engine had simply been shut down while repairs were done on the other one. Those repairs were completed before the Iranians showed up.
Early reports also had it that both boats were out of touch with the command net; something that wasn’t true. Apparently one boat lost comm, but was still in contact with the other boat.
My own view of the ROE on this is that the situation was similar to that of a domestic LEO confronting an armed suspect. Never give up the weapons. Because if you do, you lose all control over the end result. You can negotiate, and talk until hell freezes over, but you don’t cede your adversary the advantage of being armed when you’re not.
Just my two cents. Others are welcome to disagree.
Damn…I posted a lengthy thing about amazing Seabee’s and why I love them for what they did for me in F’ing Phu Bai in ’68 (right CLaw and 3/17?). Bottom line, as an Army guy, why are Seabee’s on little boats? They drive Cat D7’s and make shit happen. But, I’m a dinosaur.
No, no Brother, we have nothing to do with that shit but if we did believe me this shit would have never happen. We do have billets at the command but 1’s and 2 ‘s and most of their combat warfare stuff comes from us and our training manuals, the problem is they don’t have the mind set as they just visit expeditionary combat. I will say this crew did not have the SeaBee or the EOD techs they should have had and if they would have this shit would have never happen.
Total embarrassment …
“Let’s have tea with the Persians and tell them everything we know …”, said the OIC as the Chief looked on in horror!
It is embarrassing for the US military, but just look at what this administration has done to us. With the budget cuts etc. there is nothing left for training so it goes downhill. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not making excuses for them. They were wronger that wrong.
I can’t help but think back at all of the times that I was, and most of you too, one mechanical problem away from being in the same situation. A helicopter having to sit down, a blown engine on a vehicle in a convoy ( like 507th Maint) etc. I feel like I would have honored the code of conduct and my brothers in arms. If not, you would at least see cuts and bruises on me in my pictures on the news. Not like these guys. I don’t want to pass too much judgement since I wasn’t there, but damn it.
I hope all of our new transgender troops are as bad ass as Carter says they’ll be. You know, we’re gonna be a better fighting force with “Them” in our ranks.
Happy birthday America!