Commander; SEALs ready to accept women
According to the Christian Science Monitor, from an Associated Press story, Rear Admiral Brian Losey, the commander of the Navy’s special warfare units, says that accepting women into the ranks of SEALs is “the right thing to do”. I agree completely as long as the standard remains the same for everyone. It doesn’t make sense to eliminate a segment of the population that is completely qualified and fit enough based on their reproductive organs.
Rear Admiral Losey’s latest announcement isn’t without caveats. He says explicitly that women among the commando ranks will not increase the units’ ability in combat. The gender integration of the unit will go as far as diverting “focus and energy away from core combat readiness and effectiveness efforts,” he writes.
Another concern expressed is over adverse effects the vigorous physical demands of combat could have on women’s health.
I do, however, have to wonder why, in the days of shrinking budgets and a active duty and veteran healthcare system that is rupturing at it’s seams, we’re jamming this round peg into a square hole. You know, during a war.
I think the only thing that could make the social justice warriors cheer now, is the first woman killed during her special forces assignment.
Category: Navy
For Frankie Cee and others that may have the inside story…I saw this online over this past weekend (granted it’s from People Magazine):
http://www.people.com/article/female-ranger-school-graduation-planned-advance
Any truth to this? If there is, then I see the same thing happening with the other SpecOps communities… all in the name of Social Justice.
I decided last week that I wasn’t going to discuss that on the blog, because the only people who will suffer from a discussion would be the RIs whether the story is true or not. And they don’t deserve to be the target.
I’ll honor that decision and not write anything on the subject, Jonn. But if what SKK claims in her article is even halfway accurate . . . it’s damning as hell.
We should ask Frankie about this. He has an inside leg with the Ranger community.
Sorry for posting the link, Jonn… did not want create any issues.
I agree with Jonn. And if you are old enough to remember this…the media stirred the same shit about female astronauts.
And the media will stir the same nonsense about women in the SEALs.
Precisely.
He says explicitly that women among the commando ranks will not increase the units’ ability in combat. The gender integration of the unit will go as far as diverting “focus and energy away from core combat readiness and effectiveness efforts,”
Oh sure, but other than that…
(Same thing could be said of the regular line units as well-just saying)
Now, now, everybody knows, if you are not a member of the special operations community you didn’t actually do anything during the War on Terror.
I mean, that’s what the media would have you believe.
Okay, fine. Here are the testing requirements, directly reported from NAVSTA Great Lakes where candidates go through 2 months of training just to be selected.
These are the requirements:
Swim 1,000 yards with fins in 20 minutes
Complete 70 pushups in 2 minutes
Complete 10 pullups in 2 minutes
Complete 60 curl-ups in 2 minutes
Run 4 miles in 31 minutes
This is per the Navel Special Warfare website, to GET INTO the San Diego program.
1,000 candidates are selected per year. 200 to 250 successfully complete the program each year. 75% to 80% dropout rate.
So before you start whining, or bring up that asinine Demi Moore film which was complete and utter fiction, those requirements are out of the horse’s mouth.
If you counter with that the minimum is only half of what I posted, the Navy’s response is that if you can only do half, you won’t even get looked at.
You might get a handshake and a glass of iced coffee.
Ooops!!! ‘NavAl Special Warfare’
“please accept this laurel and hardy handshake”
Those #s are the posted minimums. Unless you double the reps and cut the times by around 1/3, you aren’t considered competitive. And ‘double the reps’ = double the reps that are counted as ‘valid’ by whatever Diver is giving the test. If you get marked down for 110 push ups, odds are you probably cranked out 120-125. Additionally, I recall instructors in 1st phase telling us ‘You’d better enjoy this, because this is as easy as it gets’. This little gem was usually directed our way when a significant portion of the class failed to hide the tears caused by the sand in their vaginas. I remember thinking ‘bullshit, just another head game, no way in hell being in the Teams sucks worse than 1st phase’. But in some very important ways, that statement was very true. BUD/S screens out guys not fit for life in a Platoon/life in the Teams (not counting the 10%ers that slip through the cracks). An ‘average’ day in a Platoon in the field is not something I see any female being able to handle very long before breaking down physically. There are women in SOF units, and they have a niche and they kick ass at their jobs. The Israelis and a few others are prime examples. But without getting into the specifics of what they do, they are not assigned to ‘vanilla’ SOF sub units (Platoon, ODA, etc.). There’s no point in doing so. At the very, very best they would not enhance any capabilities. On average, they’d be a liability. RADM Losey should have resigned his commission in protest. The guys are not happy with him. Every single woman who has served in any capacity close to regular Infantry duty in the field has told the truth about the effects. Most of them have had their careers ruined for doing so. The people pushing this are almost all civilians, and the very small % with any military service did not serve in combat arms. If the senior leadership doesn’t do their job and stop this social engineering/social justice clusterfuck, a decade… Read more »
Sharkman, no bone to pick on my side of the rope. It’s not a job that I would want.
However, I do know that Mavy women are in Combat Camera groups and have been for some time, and the CCG people all train with the SEALs. I don’t how many women are in Navy CCGs now, nor do I care. But if they have the persistence and toughness that Dickie Chapelle and other women like her had, it’s a moot point.
The real issue is that the program has expectations and standards for a reason. It’s not a social club.
Unfortunately, the social justice warriors don’t get that part. They do not understand what the people who are on those teams have to face, nor do they care because they will be home in their warm, fuzzy spots without a care in the world.
That’s my biggest objection to this. They just do not care who gets hurt, as long as it isn’t them.
I agree and have always argued that womb should be allowed to do any job open to men as long as the standards remain the same.
When I served on Low Level Voice Intercept teams the army rules prevented women from serving on teams because the teams were coded as “V” slots and were deployed behind the enemy line of troops.
We had a female decathlete in our battalion that was more than capable of serving on the teams and highly qualified but she was not permitted. She left the battalion to become an Air Assault instructor because of this restriction. We lost a good collector and excellent soldier.
Wow, that is a pretty embarrassing mistake. “Womb” should have been “women”.
Wish there was an edit function.
“We had a female decathlete in our battalion…”
Females compete in the heptathlon Lars.
Score: 68W58 10++
Oh, I did not know that. Well, she competed in a heptathlons I guess. Anyway, the multi event sport competitions.
I know her husband was a decathlete and they competed together. He was also in the battalion.
I don’t mean they competed in the same events. I mean they trained together and traveled together when going to competitions.
Marathon runners, triathletes, whatever. I’ve seen triathletes that did 300+ on the APFT eat my dust on a Road March with a full rucksack, when it’s Grunts versus Gazelles, we Grunts always prevail!
Females as tier one door kickers what could possibly go wrong. One other side at least their will be twice as many fake Navy Seals to expose.
If women can successfully complete the course requirements (SEAL/Ranger), they should wear the Trident/Ranger Tab. I’m hoping women can do so. Why? If they are unable to successfully complete training, standards will be lowered so that they able to do so. The PC crowd will see to that. They earn it? Give it to them. Welcome them into the fold.
If the standards are not lowered for women in dive/salvage training, why should they be lowered for women in Special Warfare training?
I for one do not want to see any standards lowered.
Standards should NOT be lowered. I’m not advocating for loosening of standards, but I believe IF women are unable to successfully complete requirements, the PC crowd will raise holy heck demanding a loosening of standards. Do NOT lower standards.
The standards WERE lowered. It has happened. It is done.
Now, we won’t know whether they could have or could not have graduated with the standards in place – because they didn’t get the chance to!
Links. Proof.
I don’t have to link to or prove shit to you.
You’ll see what you want to see. Especially if you use “links” on the internet for your “proof.”
No, you don’t. Except that you just did. Go fuck yourself, asshole.
Lol at you. Go change your tampmon.
Yes I know how to spell tampon. I was laughing too hard to type correctly.
Ooooh, that is SUCH a Freudian slip on your part, Manchu. Lovely!
Might try starting with the link in the first comment above.
Exactly Hondo. That’s why I didn’t waste my time.
Three are people who will complain about anything, including sunshine, because it’s too bright.
If you believe an article written by someone whose employer is a gossip rage passing for human interest and whose entire motivation is to dispense more gossip, you have a limited mentality.
Believe an article?
I didn’t lay reference to shit. You wish.
You might want to Google the byline on that article, Ex-PH2. The author isn’t exactly your typical hack writing for People.
Actually, Hondo, she is a freelancer doing a hack piece to make some cash.
I know someone who knows her very well. He says it’s a hack job.
Much of the training is peer-evaluated besides instructor evaluated. I cannot believe there was any sleight of hand involved. Like the 9/11 Conspiracies – how many involved and not one Manning in the buch dropping secrets? The Marine Corps has been doing their own thing too. A few kick-ass female Marines finished enlisted infantry training. None have successfully completed IOC. Will it happen? I absolutely believe so. Will it change the world? No, probably not. I don’t see where the could be a ‘changing of standards’. Not with peer reviews. I duuno. Ruck up with any of the afore mentioned few. And let us know from experience at that point. Ensure you do some grappling and hand-to-hand as well. I want the whole experience.
Shit, Mods. I’m CWORet! Not CWORest. I’ll never rest…
Why would standards be lowered?
Because SecNav is on record stating the women will make up 25% of the force and all specialties/rates/MOS.
How are the services going to meet that goal in a voluntary service……
So, if the Navy’s standards are not lowered for women in Dive/Salvage, which is part of UDT and is quite dangerous, you think the standards for an equally dangerous job like SEAL should be lowered?
Well, I did post the tests that ALL CANDIDATES are required to pass to even GET to San Diego to start a class, and it’s PASS or FAIL. End of story.
Find something else to complain about, like your monthly period, willya?
Moi?
I’m not complaining (and it’d be hard to complain about a monthly visitor, my plumbing’s all wrong for that)
I’m simply pointing out that the SecNav has stated a goal of 25% females across the Navy and Marine with corresponding representations in all communities, ratings, specialties, MOSs.
And the only way that that is achievable is to ‘modify’ standards.
But according to SecNav, my experience isn’t relevant to the discussion due to the fact that I’m just a “Hold my beer knuckledragger”
I missed that article/speech. When or where did he say that?
25% women may be SecNav’s goal, but historical statistics rebut his aims.
In the 1960s, WAVES and other women, e.g., nurses, were supposed to total 10% of the total force. The actual statistic was barely 1.1%. Same thing later on, when more positions were opened to women and discharges for maternity or parenting were no longer in effect.
Lowering the standards will not bring a higher percentage of women into any of the services, especially if career-oriented women do not see themselves advancing as quickly in anything as they would in civilian jobs.
It’s not just the Dive/Salvage it’s the Special community’s with in dive world have not lowered the standards. EOD and UCT have woman also and same standards. If you fail your out male or female. They do recruit by gender so they don’t go out openly and look for woman to join.
If NSW used this as a template and not put numbers or % to it should be ok. The Navy also has the same standards for SAR swimmers male or female.
All in all I believe the Navy has a better history at integrating, keeping standards the same know matter what special program. It took several years for a woman to pass EOD and same for UCT they had several drops and failures before one passed.
NSW does a lot of work with all the above special community’s,I believe this is their template
Fat fingers sorry. They do not recruit by gender.
Here’s the real problem with the women-in-everything part.
Women are a large part of the civilian work force. The majority of civilian jobs do not put them in harm’s way or demand anything more than job-appropriate clothing, appearance and behavior.
If a young woman just starting out is offered a choice between a job that won’t take her away from home or family, won’t prevent her from moving from one company to another to advance in her career, pays very good money and doesn’t threaten her safety; or one that has her constantly away from home and family, pays only a modest wage, hounds her constantly about her dress size and hair, puts her in harm’s way, and requires a specific contract term (I think it’s 8 years now) to start the job at all – well, which job do you really think she’d choose, in all honesty?
That is my point exactly, the # of woman in Special Dive programs all of them active now is about 25. Do the % to men and # of billet’s I believe that is about 2%. EOD just let one of their female’s go forward 2013 she did fine.
But stated she would not do it all the time. In my world it is a mixed bag we have woman that have been in combat shot and killed. We do have a problem keeping them in so the navy just pushes higher #’s from boot camp so this could be the problem with SEAL’S they need to keep % and #’s out of it
The Sleep of Reason Brings Forth Monsters.
I often wonder if the silence of the masses is a result of social slumber. There is this inclination to focus on a singular aspect of an issue, to then use this monocular vision of a topic to sound a Crescendo and whip the masses into a frenzy.
The singular ability of any individual to physically prove they are by far the exception to a rule does not impart equality to them. They are simply granted the exception.
The rigors of deployment are not being viewed through a unidirectional lens. The insistence of a singular focal point on this issue is an exercise of futility. Lauding those few who do graduate is a celebration of ignorance.
There is no woman who is equal to me, nor I to them. We are not and shall never be, equal. Holistically, we are not greater or lesser than, our differences are glaringly obvious.
To celebrate or vilify the individuals who graduate without deploying protracted critical thought to the aftermath is not compos mentis.
While reason sleeps there be monsters about, we will awake for Goya’s dream to find them at the door.
Makes sense to me, Dave.
But then I’m easily whipped into a frenzy…
TLDR Version,
Dave doesn’t think they should wear the trident. Its all driven by the Media
In the interest of preserving some sense of eloquence to Mr. Lilyea’s creation, I feel obligated to promulgate in a vernacular more fitting his visionary quest.
In a sense I am offering penance due to my penchant for profanity.
They’ll just find a couple of world class athletic women and give them six months training, nutrition, body building, educational previews of the entire course and then out of the 20 that try one or two will pass after being given 47 chances to do so unlike their male counterparts and then every numbnut dreamer at the puzzle palace will clap themselves on the back for a job well done….meanwhile the other members of that team will be at risk because their female counterparts won’t be getting six months of prep for everything they do once on a team.
They call that IBOLC
You know something? This is the ONLY subject on this site that brings out hysterics in otherwise level-headed men. I think I’ve decided to add “Women in Combat” to my list of Subjects That Shall Not Be Discussed. Second only to “Religion.”
Oh, God, don’t bring up Religion. (See what I did there?)
It’s certainly not penis envy, is it?
I certainly hope your comment was not all inclusive. I take offense to being considered “otherwise level-headed”.
I was looking very much forward to your essay on The Religion of Conservative Gay Women in Combat. May I suggest a catchy title:
Deluded Dykes Deployed.
Dave: while waxing rhapsodic over Goya’s phantasmagoric paintings is commendable, you could at least post a spew alert on the other? Shouldn’t that be ‘Demented Dykes Deployed’?
I understand the use of certain references is an anachronism, but I often feel like I am jousting with the man from La Mancha.
Is it snowing soon?
Sancho Panza says, “They say one madman makes a hundred and love makes a thousand.
What that means, I am not sure.”
I have been considering writing a contemporary tritest about a retired Army platoon sergeant that rides an Urban Assault Vehicle and attacks mail boxes. Kind of a modern version but instead of spending his spare time time studying medieval romance stories he guards his porch reeking of cheap cigars and scotch.
If only I had a character reference……..
Try Bernath. Just change the name to something witty.
“Women will, however, have greater risk of injury, [Rear Adm. Brian Losey] warns, and the standards for the jobs may have to be lowered.” No problem. Injuries in the field don’t impact the team, right? No, not much. And standards “may” have to be lowered? Sure, why not? Lower standards won’t impact the team either, right? But look on the bright side. Wait. Um. Bright side. Looking under B and “Sides, Bright.” Nothing so far. I’ll have to get back to you on that.
The article I read attributed this to Losey:
He said that while there may be ‘external’ pressure to adjust the standards so that women can successfully pass, it’s not likely that would succeed.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3249199/Navy-SEALs-ready-open-doors-women.html#ixzz3nA1Vq2Xu
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
This tells me that he will not lower standards
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3249199/Navy-SEALs-ready-open-doors-women.html#ixzz3nA19JhHT
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Yeah, sorry. This is me being a skeptic. Not seeing it happen anytime soon.
I’m no SEAL but what I’ve read about them, half their training seems to be of the hazing variety. In Chris Kyle’s book, how wrote about being randomly jumped and beaten by his buddies. This would be totally unacceptable with women.
There is more to building Warriors than just standards. Esprit de corps and trust, among the intangibles. So lets say a really hot chick makes the teams. How will the natural jealousy of the guy thats hitting it make the SEALS better?
Well, if she hits back like this young lady did, she should generate some respect, don’t you think?
https://youtu.be/brGYuf6nmYQ
No, I don’t. Do we really want SEALS to get pregnant down range?
Mandate the pill or an IUD…..maybe just the pill.
So, CLong, you advocate mandatory hormone changing drugs for women? Or just forcible gyoncological procedures? How about mandatory vasectomies?
The best birth control pill is a simple aspirin. Held between the knees.
Silly problems deserve silly solutions.
No, I advocate highly trained professionals acting like highly trained professionals by keeping their hands off each other.
Like General Petraeus, et al?
As EM1 will attest, as the old saying goes, “A stiff dick has no conscience.”
And don’t tell me women don’t ever initiate, either.
“Waa but he did it too!” Is that your reasoning?
You’ll notice I said professionals without referencing their gender.
To be fair I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that Pat meant the danger of getting pregnant would come from within the units if females were allowed in.
Nope. And if they are married, you can’t very well order them on contraceptives.
Let’s assume that’s the case–that the woman in question gets pregnant in wedlock, no affair, etc.
At that point, she’s not deployable. So not only is she not able to deploy, now another man (or woman) gets short-cycled to make up for that unexpected loss. EM1 knows of which I speak. I personally have been short-cycled and lost augment because someone else has a medical issue.
It’s hard enough to make up for planned losses. It’s even harder to make up for unplanned ones, and a total mindfuck to try to make up for an unplanned loss in a unit as small as a SEAL platoon or a submarine division.
It may be hard but its doable. The military deals with it all the time. We used the “it’s too hard and too impractical” excuse on subs etc. What we are really saying is that a certain group of people, who have otherwise served their country well, aren’t worth a little bit of extra work and consideration to guarantee a level playing field.
They said all of this about blacks at one point in time as well if you remember your history. The world didn’t end then and it won’t end now.
Using things as petty as potential pregnancy just sounds like “Boohoo I don’t wanna play with girls” and you know it.
Newsflash, clong–it IS impractical on submarines in a lot of cases, especially on SSN’s, where there are no separate berthing/bunkrooms, like there are on Tridents.
I’ve never said women can’t do the jobs men can do on a boat. It’s not a capability issue, it’s a privacy issue. The reason it’s worked (so far) on Tridents is because comparatively speaking, there is a lot more privacy and ability to segregate by sex than there would be on a fast boat.
Again, you can’t force women (married or not) to take contraceptives or get abortions if they get pregnant. But once again, a division of 6-8 people is already stretched thin enough without having to deal with an unplanned loss of any kind.
“Newsflash, clong–it IS impractical on submarines in a lot of cases, especially on SSN’s, where there are no separate berthing/bunkrooms, like there are on Tridents.”
Impractical not impossible.
“I’ve never said women can’t do the jobs men can do on a boat.”
I know, was just first comparable example I thought of.
“Again, you can’t force women (married or not) to take contraceptives or get abortions if they get pregnant.”
Of course not, just like you can’t grow a male SEAL a new arm if he were to trip and break it during training\night out\whatever. Just like a multitude of other possible reasons a person might have to sit one out.
“But once again, a division of 6-8 people is already stretched thin enough without having to deal with an unplanned loss of any kind.”
Sounds like they need more able bodies then. Letting females join, who can do the job, should alleviate some of that manpower issue…or should we say personpower haha
I can’t speak for “sub life” – but it’s my understanding that both attack subs and SSBNs don’t typically see much time on the surface except during port calls. I also understand that space considerations dictate crew size, so taking extra personnel “just in case” isn’t exactly practical.
I also understand that getting some on or off of a boat (sub) at sea is, shall we say, somewhat non-trivial.
But maybe I’m wrong about all of those.
Right, because the women (or even the men) in a unit (or office, or University, etc) only date members of the opposite (or same, although same sex dating does reduce the pregnancy chances somewhat)sexfrom that exact unit. Give it up, you have just changed your arguement twice, and your reasoning has gotten dumber each time
….what? I didn’t change my position at all. Regardless if the female SEALS were messing around in unit or being irresponsible outside it, they are professionals who should be given the chance to act like such and avoid things that would make them less ready to do their jobs. The same way any men would avoid *insert anything here*.
Hell, pregnancy is one of the easiest medical problems that may arise to avoid.
Oh, there you go! Forced abortions whether the women want them or not, just to keep their jobs.
Yes, I’ve seen that before, for real. Three times.
You’ve got to be kidding. You put men and women in close proximity for a prolonged period of time there will be sex!! PERIOD!! I don’t give a rats ass what Gen Order is issued prohibiting it!
So military professionals are akin to what? Rabbits, gerbils?
Give them more credit.
Sounds to me like he is saying “sure,,, go for it, but don’t be surprised if it doesnt happen”.
Hmmmm. I wonder why the Olympics separates the men and women in the marathon?
Why are the results so drastically different?
I guess maybe we are different. Us Women and Men and all.
Just wondering.
Makes me wonder WHY the US Army PT Test calls for far less for females to pass than males, sounds sexist and discriminatory to me! After all, the PC SJW’s perpetually screech that we’re all equal!!
Nice non-regulation haircuts on these females.
?
This is my opinion and I am serious.
On one hand we are constantly told that men who hit women are the worst things in the universe.
On several occasions I have angered a female in some way only to have them threaten physical violence against me.
Let me give the most recent example. Over the summer I took my elderly mother shopping. My 72 yr old mother was not moving fast enough for a obese black woman while my mother was returning a power cart. she started yelling racist slurs and threatening my mother. I told the loud fat woman to act like a human being and then she got in my face and actually pushed me and chest bumped me while calling me racist names. I protected my mother and got away from the fat bitch.
However if she was a man I would have dropped the person the instant I was touched. I ONLY held back because the fat racist bitch was a female.
Now the media and politicians tell us females are strong and tough enough to be Rangers, combat Marines, and now SEALs!
So which one is it? If females are tough enough to be elite combat service women, then females who try to instigate men to fight them then should get their asses kicked.
Or women remain feminine and are protected from fighting men.
Bottom line is that it cannot work both ways. If a female can serve in combat then they should not be protected.
If someone has the ability to serve in combat then what sane person would think that chivalry should apply?