That Prestigious NDSM!
One of our regulars here (sj) speaks very highly of the National Defense Service Medal – though from the context of his comments, if I’m reading him right I believe he’s doing so somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But it turns out that there is a surprising quirk when it comes to this medal.
Here’s a trivia question. True or false: it is not possible for someone legitimately to rate the Vietnam Service Medal (VSM) unless they also qualified for the National Defense Service Medal (NDSM).
It turns out that the answer to that question is somewhat surprising. At least, I was surprised by what I ran across the other day.
Best I can tell, the answer to the question is, believe it or not, “False.” It does appear possible for someone to legitimately rate the VSM without also qualifying for the NDSM. In fact, there appear to be at least two different scenarios in which an individual might do exactly that.
Here are the details.
1. DoDM 1348.33-V2, dated November 23, 2010, w/Change 2, specifies the eligibility criteria for the NDSM and VSM. The NDSM’s criteria are given in Enclosure 3, pp. 59-61, of the document; the NDSM’s, on pp. 66-70.
2. Per the DoDM, the NDSM Vietnam eligibility period runs from 1 January 1961 to 14 August 1974. The VSM’s eligibility period is from July 4, 1965, and March 28, 1973.
So, that means it is not possible to have a legit VSM without the NDSM, right? Well, that would seem to be true.
Except it’s not. There’s another thing that DoDM 1348.33-V2 also allows – called “AFEM conversion”.
3. Personnel serving in Vietnam between 1 July 1958 and 3 July 1965 were eligible to receive the AFEM for service in Vietnam. On application, DoDM 1348.33-V2 allows these personnel at their option to elect to convert their AFEM for service in Vietnam to the VSM.
(They may also opt to retain the AFEM – but they can’t receive both the AFEM and VSM for service in Vietnam. So if an individual served in Vietnam both before and after 4 July 1965, it appears that DoD policy requires that they must remove any AFEMs awarded for service prior to that date to receive the VSM.)
4. Conversion of AFEM to VSM is also allowed for those personnel awarded the AFEM for service in Operation Frequent Wind (the evacuation of Saigon) on 29-30 April 1975. The two conversions are specifically authorized in para 17.e.(2)(a) and para 17.e.(2)(b) of DoDM 1348.33-V2.
What that means is that there are at least two hypothetical scenarios in which a person could technically – at the individual’s option – legitimately rate the VSM without rating the NDSM. The first such scenario would be that of a young Soldier who joined the Army in 1956, served in Vietnam very early (during 1959-1960), and then left active duty prior to the end of that year. The second scenario would be a young Airman, Sailor or Marine who enlisted in 1974 on or after 15 August, went to training, was assigned to a unit or ship supporting Frequent Wind, and later left the service prior to 2 August 1990.
In both cases, the individual would have originally received the AFEM for their service in or supporting Vietnam. However, conversion of that AFEM to the VSM would be authorized. They could apply to the appropriate Board for Correction of Military/Naval Records to do so. (I believe I’ve seen a case or two where an early Vietnam vet did exactly that – e.g., applied to the appropriate Board well after discharge to have their AFEM converted to the VSM.)
But in neither case would the individual be eligible for the NDSM. All of their service would be outside a qualifying period for award of the NDSM.
So, I guess sj is right: the NDSM really is a big deal after all. It turns out you can rate a campaign medal and still not qualify for that prestigious NDSM!
That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it. (smile)
. . .
For what it’s worth: the same is true for the AFEM regarding service in a whole laundry list of operations. And it’s also true for a number of operations qualifying for the Navy Expeditionary Medal or Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal.
It’s also true for service qualifying for the Kosovo Campaign Medal if the individual joined the military after November 1995 and their service ended prior to 11 September 2001, too (provided they didn’t join the Selected Reserve or a National Guard unit after leaving active duty).
. . .
Remember, folks: we’re talking DoD policy. It doesn’t have to make any sense. (smile)
Category: Historical, Pointless blather, Who knows, WTF?
There was a period during Beirut that some individuals could choose between the NEM and the MCEM. They could not have both obviously.
The guidelines are confusing for some veterans when it comes to awards. The CAR was awarded during Beirut but the manner in which it was done has left many Beirut Veterans confused. The eligibility period ends in Aug84. Many Marines did not become qualified for the CAR until after they had returned to CONUS and had transferred to other units.
There seems to be these ‘windows’ of eligibility and exceptions to awards more often than most would think. I usually caution people that want to call someone out for displaying awards that fall into this category.
MOH,SS,BS,PH are easily verified. NDSM,CAR,Nav/MC Exp, can be difficult to establish in very particular time periods for very particular events. Things like a SSDR or OSSR were retroactive when awarded and there are huge numbers of veterans without them on their DD214.
Choose my ass, my ship was one of first on station to evacuate US PERS and friendlies … We got squat for Bayroot and that was 1982.
If you were part of the Jun 1982 evacuation you should have been awarded the Humanitarian Service Medal.
For service in Lebanon between June 1, 1983 and March 4, 1984, the service member may choose either the Navy Expeditionary Medal (or Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal, depending on Service component) or the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal.
Service after March 4, 1984 was awarded the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal until Aug 1984 when military presence in Beirut was officially terminated.
To my knowledge the only unit awarded both the Humanitarian Service and Expeditionary Medals were those in or in support of BLT 2/8 that were both in Beirut and Grenada Oct 83-March 84.
yer absolutely correct on that note MR.HARDIN
While the Marines departed in 1984, the AFEM continued to be awarded to 1 December 87 (see Hondo’s link above) due to the ongoing work of the “special people” in country.
HONDO is always right of course. I would never dream of doubting the great one.
I should have been more specific in my answer. I was referring to the veterans that were in Lebanon with the Multinational Peacekeeping Forces, or in support of them.
I can neither confirm or deny “special people” being in Lebanon after that date. If I were familiar with any, I can assure you they did not get an AFEM or any other medal for that matter.
The Bombing on 20Sept84 involved Marines directly attached to the Embassy. There were several PH’s and CAR’s awarded for that. There were Marines sent ashore to secure the Embassy for a short period of time.
It further supports that one must be careful before calling out someone for claiming certain awards. Particularly concerning Beirut.
Just noting DoD policy, DH – and providing a link above to same.
I personally do not know if any US forces operated in Lebanon after 1984 – or if they did, to which of the US military services they belonged.
I’m guessing at least a few did, though – and received the AFEM, either then or much later (as was the case for the US forces operating in El Salvador during the 1980s). There’s no real reason for the AFEM “window” to have stayed open until 1987 otherwise.
Then again, as I said in the article: we are talking DoD policy. It doesn’t necessarily have to make sense. (smile)
Everyone knows the only people in Lebanon after 84 were Embassy personal and a few UN observers.
I am being facetious of course.
There was an article a few years ago in the VFW magazine commemorating the 30 anniversary of the Barracks Bombing, which briefly mentioned the “continuing missions” after the Marines departed.
I’ve met a handful of guys who operated in Lebanon post 84, they had some interesting tales.
It was nothing but Humanitarian efforts to win the hearts and minds.
Other than a few accidental deaths and self inflicted wounds nothing happened.
“after the Marines departed”, well, lots of luck nailing that date down.
Thanks, Hondo. I just knew there was some real prestige to being awarded the much coveted and highly sought after NDSM./sarc
The NDSM was the very first and last awards I received for my career. They occurred for my first and last years. The first was when they told us “OK, everybody gets a fire guard ribbon” and then the announcement for the Bronze Service Star came in the form of “Hey, all you guys who have an NDSM now can put a little bronze star on it.” This was after the ODS/DS Stop-Loss Program had been lifted and my request for retirement had been approved and forwarded.
And Hondo, if possible, for your next project will you explain how people can be awarded a VSM (one days service) and not receive the VCM (six months with boots on ground) I’m sure people will be surprised that those two awards don’t necessarily go together.
That is true. The US VSM required 1 day of service in the designated AO (if permanently assigned there or to a ship/aircraft performing direct support) or 30 days consecutive/60 days nonconsecutive service if there TDY from a unit located elsewhere. However, the government of the RVN set a hard and fast 6 month service requirement for award of their VCM (the RVN also awarded it to those who served less than 6 mo but were WIA or taken POW, and there were some special provisions for those serving in the RVN on 28 Mar 1973).
My understanding is some of the very early USMC units qualified for the US VSM but left before completing 6 months in country – so they didn’t qual for the RVN’s VCM.
I enjoyed the chewing out I got from my boss for not having a bronze service star device on my NDSM. My boss roared and spit fire and brimstone at me for the poor example I set for the troops. With my best Will Stockdale grin, I reminded the boss I had enlisted in 1975 and the August 1990 award was my first.
I knew a doctor at Walter Reed who had a complete set. He was an enlsited Marine in the early 1950s, then went to college and medical school, then joined the Army. Because doctors can be continued on active duty beyond 30 years of service, he retired after the start of the GWOT. So he had an NDSM with three bronze service stars. His name was David G. McLeod, and he runs the Center for Prostate Disease Research at Walter Reed Bethesda. So if you’re ever there getting your prostate checked out by a really old doctor, just remember–you’re in the presence of a legend. I doubt there are few, if any, other quadruple NDSM recipients around.
http://www.cpdr.org/clinical-research/clinical-leadership
I think I got two of them Medal things…
Reckon I need to order several Stars to be up-to-date.
I’m vindicated. I’ve posted many times that they didn’t just give those away. An even rarer one is one with a “V”.
Shhh…I’m waiting on a poser to show up with a “V” because they read it on TAH.
The other day TAH approved the “S” device for the NDSM worn by posers.
I also am lurking in the wings waiting for a poser to show up with a “V” device on the Humanitarian Service Medal or a BSS on the Army Service Ribbon.
To recieve the “V” we must offically win a war.
How about a “Wintered Over” device on the NDSM for Sailors who went to Great Lakes during February?
Or Volk Field Wisconsin and Alpena Michigan.
Why Feb? Oct-Dec wasn’t quite Miami. I remember several times getting up at revile to find frost on the inside of the windows.
Guys, if the people stationed at Thule AB and at the former NAS Keflavik don’t get a “Wintered Over” device . . . I don’t think you have a leg to stand on here. (smile)
The all-knowing Wikipedia entry does say that an “A” device (which is placed on the Short Tour Ribbon) is awarded by the Air Force for duty at Thule.
I can think of a couple of terms the “A” could be used for other than Arctic.
I’m waiting for support of combat operations performed from safe rear-area locations (e.g., CONUS, Europe) to be recognized by the “R” device.
http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=35249
Y’know, somehow, I saw a “REMF” joke coming as soon as you said “R device”, and I’ve only been here about 5 or 6 months. (Dad was an Army head, pushed me into the Air Force, and used to make rear echelon motherfucker jokes all the time about his coworkers.)
In this context, it denotes “Remote Executor of Military Force”.
Maybe. (smile)
sj…I’m still with you brother. No NDSM….Pffffftt! I’m still waiting to see a clown wearing a NDSM with a 4 knot conduct award on it.
You didn’t have to have “boots on the ground” to receive the Vietnam service medal. It was awarded to anyone who was in support of operations in Vietnam to include the ships assigned to Yankee or Dixie Staions in the South China Sea, the B52 creews flying out of Guam, and the crews flying out of Thailand as well as those assigned to Laos and Cambodia and many others. From AR 600-8-22:
2–13. Vietnam Service Medal
a. The Vietnam Service Medal (VSM) was established by EO 11231, 8 July 1965, as amended by EO 13286, 2
February 2003. It is awarded to all members of the Armed Forces of the United States serving in Vietnam and
contiguous waters or airspace there over, after 3 July 1965 through 28 March 1973. Members of the Armed Forces of
the United States in Thailand, Laos, or Cambodia, or the airspace there over, during the same period and serving in
direct support of operations in Vietnam are also eligible for this award.
True. Of the approx 3.1 M who qualified for the VSM, less than 2.6 M ever set foot in the RVN. The rest supported from offshore or other locations – though the aircrews did at least fly over and risk getting shot at. Ditto for some of the ships that sailed close offshore.
In my book, getting shot at kinda counts as “being there” – whether you’re on the ground or not.
Got shot at by a drunken Greek fisherman with a shotgun (along with a few hundred other sailors and Marines) while on liberty on some little island while on a Med Cruise. Does this count as “being there?” Can I get a “V” for my NDSM? And if I run for office, does having an NDSM make me a “decorated veteran”?
Sure, it counts as being there – in the “combat zone” of the early 1970s Mediterranean, of course. Not sure it counts for Vietnam, though. (smile)
Probably should have said “being close enough to get shot at kinda counts” above.
So my gedunk medal is not JUST a gedunk medal, but a ‘distinguished’ gedunk medal.
I have no idea where it went. Lost it many moons ago when moving from one place to another.
I have an extra if you want mine.
Fact sheet from the AFPC website pretty well sums it up for the VSM. Background Created by Executive Order 11213, July 8, 1965. It is awarded to all service members of the Armed Forces who between July 4, 1965 and March 28, 1973, served in the following areas of Southeast Asia: in Vietnam and the contiguous waters and airspace; in Thailand, Laos, or Cambodia or the airspace thereof and in the direct support of military operations in Vietnam. Personnel previously awarded the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal for service in Vietnam between July 1958 and July 1965, may, upon request, exchange that medal for the Vietnam Service Medal (pictured below); however, no one is authorized to wear both medals solely for services in Vietnam. Criteria There were 17 different campaign periods, but the first, which was called the Vietnam Advisory Campaign, covered the period from March 15, 1962 to March 7, 1964. During this time there were never more than a few thousand U.S. troops involved in Vietnam. The following is a list of Department of Defense (DoD) recognized military campaigns associated with eligibility for the Vietnam Service Medal, provided a member meets the award eligibility criteria listed below: Vietnam Advisory Campaign: 15 March 1962 – 7 March 1965 Vietnam Defense Campaign: *4 July 1965 – 24 December 1965 Vietnam Counteroffensive Campaign: 25 December 1965 – 30 June 1966 Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase II: 1 July 1966 – 31 May 1967 Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase III: 1 June 1967 – 29 Jan 1968 Tet Counteroffensive: 30 January 1968 – 1 April 1968 Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase IV: 2 April 1968 – 30 June 1968 Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase V: 1 July 1968 – 1 November 1968 Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase VI: 2 November 1968 – 22 February 1969 Tet ’69 Counteroffensive: 23 February 1969 – 8 June 1969 Vietnam Summer-Fall 1969: 9 June 1969 – 31 October 1969 Vietnam Winter-Spring 1970: 1 November 1969 – 30 April 1970 Sanctuary Counteroffensive: 1 May 1970 – 30 June 1970 Vietnam Counteroffensive VII: 1 July 1970 – 30 June 1971 Consolidation I: 1 July 1971 – 30 November 1971… Read more »
The AFPC fact sheet you quote is incorrect. DoD recognizes 18 campaigns for the VSM vice 17. The 18th campaign is Operation FREQUENT WIND, 29-30 April 1975. See
http://prhome.defense.gov/Portals/52/Documents/RFM/MPP/OEPM/Docs/VSM%20-%20Approved%20Campaign%20Phases.pdf
The AFPC may have omitted the 18th campaign from their fact sheet as it appears no USAF or US Army personnel were assigned to Task Force 76, which executed FREQUENT WIND. (Some sources imply USAF participation, but the list of US forces for FREQUENT WIND doesn’t appear to include any USAF elements.)
However, even here DoD’s policies regarding the VSM raise questions. Per DoD policy, someone who served in Vietnam prior to the first recognized campaign for the VSM (Vietnam Advisory Campaign, start date 15 Mar 1962) may elect to receive the VSM in lieu of the AFEM previously authorized for that service. If all of their service was before the DoD-recognized start date for the 1st Vietnam campaign, would such an individual correctly wear the VSM with no campaign stars – or with one?
I have been trying for many years to get the MC to give me my VSM for Frequent Wind. They keep sending me the Humanitarian Service Medal. I still don’t know how the Unit Diary Clerks keep everything straight (apparently they didn’t).
I have my NDSM is a special shadow box that is spotlighted 24/7 in the living room. As one approaches it, a pressure plate in the floor triggers the Star Spangled Banner to play from six hidden Bose speakers and a specially built case arises and opens (just like the Constitution!) revealing the Cold War Recognition Certificate. I don’t think that’s overdoing it, do you?
You forgot the 21-gun salute. 😀
Maybe you should have a choir of bald eagles perched nearby humming The Battle Hymn of the Republic.
It would add a touch of class
Sounds good. But please, no soprano or alto eagles. Only tenors and basses should be allowed to hum.
I was thinking about applying for one of those Cold War Recognition Certificates. I guess they came into existence what, seven or eight years after I retired.
But I’m sure the minute I do that my PII will be stolen by the Chinese, so I’ll just have to live without one. I’m so very disappointed. I could have used another sheet of paper in case my local Wal-Mart runs out of TP.
Live off the grid as much as possible my friends, and eventually all those damn jury duty notices will disappear from the mail box.
Go ahead and apply for it. They already have your PII on the SF-86 they stole with your info on it, so what do you have to lose?
Someone who rates the NDSM served their country honorably during a time of war.
To me, that’s pretty damn prestigious.
Aye. Out of everyone who I went to school with who also joined the military, it’s maybe 9 or 10 people. In a senior class of about 1800. I’d need to go looking again.
Intent here wasn’t to “slam” the NDSM. Service during wartime is indeed honorable.
Rather, the intent was to point out the rather odd “disconnect” between the stated reason for awarding the NDSM and reality.
The NDSM is awarded for serving during “wartime”. However, under current DoD policy it’s possible to get shot at, receive a Purple Heart and/or an award for valor in combat, and get an expeditionary or campaign medal – WITHOUT qualifying for the NDSM.
Understood, just thought it was worth pointing out.
My brain hurts.
Remember, folks: we’re talking DoD policy. It doesn’t have to make any sense. (smile)
Spot on as usual, in fact if a policy offered by the DoD does make sense it’s a safe bet that policy wasn’t crafted solely by those in the puzzle palace…
When I was discharged in 70, I did not pay attention to awards listed on my DD214. Years later, I noticed that it did not list my PH, NC/V, and one of the Vietnam campaign ribbon was missing three stars and the EGA device. Also missing was the NDSM. So, I began requesting they be added…several different times over 15 years. Each time, I would get a full issue of medals and ribbons, and most corrections would be made, but til this date, I still do not have the NDSM on my DD215. It’s been six months since my last request so maybe I will get it for Christmas!!!
HEY DOC WHO DID YOU ASK TO HAVE ALL THAT ADDEDD TO YOUR DD214
I have my DD214 HERE AND it has the VCM VSM and the NDSM I was there from 4-27-68 4-24-69
does that sound right ?
Yep. Service in RVN during those dates would qual you for all 3. It would also qual you for 4 campaign stars on the VSM: Vietnam Counteroffensive Phases IV, V, VI plus Tet 69 Counteroffensive.
Thanks Hondo, I didnt know i had all that camaign stuff .Kinder make me feel good. thanks again
Craig Payne
U.S. Army E-4
LZ Oasis
68/69
I was in the Delayed Entry Program September 21, 1995 – January 23 , 1996 . I left for basic that day so when I ETS on January 23 , 1999 . My dd214 awarded me the NDSM . I got out for a few years and now that I am back in I earned another NDSM . I did not know I could earn the NDSM for time in the Delayed Entry Program , I thought the rule change for eligibility criteria. My last deployment with the guard to OIF does not show a second NDSM.
The National Defense Service Medal is authorized for the following time periods:[2]
Korean War June 27, 1950 – July 27, 1954
Vietnam War January 1, 1961 – August 14, 1974
Persian Gulf War August 2, 1990 – November 30, 1995
Global War on Terrorism September 11, 2001 – present day
The criteria are a bit more complex than simply serving, though. For all 4 periods, active duty service generally counts – except that temporary service on active duty in a Reserve Status to fulfill a training obligation; to serve on a board, court, commission, or similar organization; or solely for the purpose of receiving a physical exam does not count.
For the latter two NDSM periods (2 Aug 1990 thru 30 Nov 1995 and 11 Sep 2001 to a date TBD), service in good standing in the Selected Reserve also qualifies (the DEP is not SELRES; that’s typically RC and NG TPUs and/or IMAs). Thus TPU or IMA service during the Gulf War and GWOT NDSM periods counts as qualifying service for the NDSM, whether or not the individual serves on extended active duty.
However, SELRES service alone does not count as qualifying service for the Vietnam and Korean War NDSM periods. For those two periods, an individual must serve on full-time active duty other than (1) to fulfill a RC training obligation, (2) to serve on a board/court/commission/similar body, or (3) to receive a physical exam. This typically means mobilization or some other form of active duty.
See DoDM 1348.33, Volume 2, dated 23 November 2010 (w/Change 2, 5/15/2015), pp. 59-60.
It appears you were awarded the first medal via administrative error, and that one award is correct in your case. DEP time DOES NOT appear to count as qualifying service for the NDSM. See the following Air Force Board for Correction of Military Records decision (format is Microsoft Word).
http://boards.law.af.mil/AF/BCMR/CY2003/BC-2002-03526.doc