Town removes soldiers’ memorial under legal pressure
Andy11M sends the story of how the town of King, North Carolina was forced to remove a memorial from their park because some unnamed supposed veteran was offended by the sight of a cross and the town of 6000 souls didn’t want to fight the illiterate anti-Christian organization Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
King, a small city of about 6,000 people 15 miles north of Winston-Salem, dedicated the memorial about a decade ago. But the statue was removed Tuesday night, immediately after The King city council voted 3-2 to end the lawsuit. Now, an empty hole can be seen where the statue once stood.
MyFox8 in Winston-Salem, reporting on the controversy the other day, said the memorial is on city-owned land but was paid for through private donations.
“Both sides in this matter wish to avoid further costs, and this agreement will ensure that the City of King will not spend additional taxpayers’ funds to continue litigation in federal court,” the city said in a statement after the vote.
I know that Americans United for Separation of Church and State is anti-Christian, because just 90 miles from King is Duke University which has just decided that they’re going to blast the adhan, the Muslim call to prayers, across the campus, and Americans United for Separation of Church and State has no problem with that.
I’m not a particularly religious person, but I have nothing against anyone who is, nor am I offended by sights and sounds of the pious. There is nothing in the Constitution that mandates a separation of church and state, like those illiterate Stalinists claim, but that doesn’t stop them from claiming that there is something there. I hope they choke on it.
Category: Dumbass Bullshit
It is not anti-Christian, it is separation of church and state, which means it is pro-constitution.
And there are soldiers of many faiths who have served and sacrificed for our nation. US veteran’s cemeteries do not have crosses as grave markers. Normandy does, but it does not ONLY have crosses.
Duke University is a PRIVATE university. Not government. There is no constitutional issue with what Duke University does because it is not a church and STATE issue.
Technically, the constitution only prohibits congress from passing laws that either support or prohibit religious exercise or practice. There’s nothing that prevents them from having religious symbols on publically-funded grounds.
Yes, at the time the constitution only applied for acts by the federal government and was intended to retrain federal power over states and the people. But, over time, the power has shifted to the federal government and the constitution has, rightfully, been regarded as restricting state and local government as well.
So when a local government uses public fund and/or public land to promote a specific religion or sect it is probably unconstitutional. However, it is actually RARELY ever challenged. When it does get challenged it often makes national news due to Christian conservative backlash most of the time there is not legal challenge at all. The volume of religious symbology and religious favoritism in our government institutions, particularly the Armed forces, is pretty overwhelming for any organization to challenge. Many state still make it illegal for an agnostic or atheist to hold public office – which is blatantly unconstitutional.
The figure in the statue is kneeling before a grave ofa fallen comrade. What in the name of all that is good in this world is offensive about that? How does it harm anyone or even endorse any religion for that matter?
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”
Atheist and other butt hurt individuals seem to always forget that last part and seek to block the free practice of religion.
“The Congress shall not”, and has not endorsed any religion, there is no religion that is a defacto power as was the case with the Church of England, who also would persecute those who did not belong to the Church. THAT is what the 1st Amendment seeks to prevent. It does not seek to banish all manner of religious symbolism or expression from the public eye.
Nobody is preventing you from free expression of religion. They are just trying to prevent government officials from spending government funds and using government land to promote their religious beliefs. How is that hard to understand?
Lars, it was completely built, installed, and maintained using private funds… It is not “promoting religious beliefs”. It is a freaking War memorial, memorialising the sacrifice of soldiers killed in combat… damn.
The memorial became a Christian memorial by having a Christian flag fly, just as it is represented by the other flags flying. It is city-owned, city-controlled, and on city property. (now it is city-surplus) The new veterans memorial sans Christian flag will be a true veteran memorial for all, as will the statue of a soldier kneeling over a grave marked by a rifle and helmet. A memorial for all, whose purpose won’t be to advertise Christian supremacy.
Larsie-boy, so then by your definition of “Separation of Church and State” would mean that the Government now needs to remove the crosses and Stars of David from Veterans’ tombstones?
what states would those be? where are you getting your information?
Arkansas, Article 19, Section 1:
No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.
Maryland, Article 37:
That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution.
Mississippi, Article 14, Section 265:
No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this state.
North Carolina, Article 6, Section 8
The following persons shall be disqualified for office: Any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.
South Carolina, Article 17, Section 4:
No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.
Tennessee, Article 9, Section 2:
No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.
Texas, Article 1, Section 4:
No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.
Lars, you are a liar or at best an exaggerator. You said “many” but only cite six archaic laws/states. Roughly 10%. That sir is not ” MANY”.
That is SIX too many.
That would be 7 folks…just sayin…and Lars has missed a couple. Massachusetts and Pennsylvania have also had such laws on the books at one time or another. This doesn’t even begin to address how oaths of office often end with “So help me God…” whether or not the person being sworn in is a believer or not…
Thanx John. Actually I think there are 9 all together but havent looked it up in a few years. I know NC had a county refuse to install an elected official who was Atheist, court stepped in and stuck down that decission. SC had a Notary Public they would not license because he would not swear an oath to a God he did not believe in. The Air Force ended several careers because they wouldnt swear an oath to a god they did not believe in. These are all in the past year or so.
Yep, there is 9 total. Lars listed 7 by count…
Incorporating the 1st Amendment against the states by prohibiting the reimbursement of transportation costs of parents sending their kids to Catholic schools (Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947)) is a far cry from building a memorial with a soldier kneeling in front of a grave marker in the form of a cross. Of course, if someone is such a tender, special snowflake that they can feel the waves of state coercion emanating from the memorial, I guess this is victory.
Are you actually trying to claim the separation of church and state only applies to school funding?
Am I to believe that Duke receives no state or federal tax deferments? Because when you boil it down, that’s all that separates us heathens from the supposed enlightened. Taxes… and I bet Duke has a sweetheart deal for property.
I’m not religious at all. Been in church a few times for weddings and once to see my sister play in a Xmas song brass quartet (she was in the US Army band at the time and it was an official gig! The horror!).
I fail to see the big deal. The town might’ve removed the cross portion and replaced it with a silhouette of boots and a rifle for less hassle, but why should they? Did other religions apply for the same permit and get shot down? Where is the injustice here?
They could have, but they didn’t. If this was just a veteran’s memorial why didn’t they?
Oh, because the religious symbology was at least as important to them as honoring veterans.
But that’s just it, Lars. Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, whatever… they all have a right to build on government land. There is no “separation of church and state”, just no official state religion.
Were other religions, agnostics or atheists denied permit to collect funds and build their own monuments? If that is the case then I see your point. Otherwise, to me it just looks like the shakedown of a small community for publicity and funding.
Would you approve of a Christian flag flying in front of your public school as long as other religious flags were allowed to fly also, or might you think that religious flags are not appropriate there? Why do you suppose that religious flags are not flown over Arlington, and never have been?
“Many state still make it illegal for an agnostic or atheist to hold public office – which is blatantly unconstitutional.” You idiot. Do you even believe what you write? You may find archaic and unenforced laws regarding horses in saloons too.
“But, over time, the power has shifted to the federal government and the constitution has, rightfully, been regarded as restricting state and local government as well.” The selective incorporation of the Bill of Rights, through the 14th Amendment’s due process clause is a relatively recent event, arrived at and perpetuated by a small handful of justices. I guess it’s more a matter of your ignorance than it is your believing your own bullshit.
You idiot they do not have to enforce it. It is in the constitution of these states and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM still makes people swear or sign and affidavit acknowledging they meet the provisions to hold public office. Some even HAVE IT RIGHT ON THE AFFIDAVIT. If a person refuses they cannot run for office, if they challenge it on religious grounds they immediately become unelectable, or they can “lie” and hide it, and then face a challenge to the election like they can in 2009. It is appalling that you think I am an idiot for pointing out that these provisions exist in state constitutions. If a state STILL had it in their constitution saying that “negros’ can’t hold public office would I be an idiot for pointing it out under YOUR ASSUMPTION that it is never enforced! This is discrimination against MY religious belief and you and privileged and ANONYMOUS piece of shit think I am an idiot for taking issue with it. Our country is at least 15% atheist and agnostic. If you include “spiritual but not religious” that number is 30%. Yet open atheists and agnostics have held so few public offices in the entire history that those who have at the national level even and idiot like you can count using just you fingers and toes.
Ya know, until about 25 years ago the Alhambra Decree was still law on the books in Spain. Since 1492 or so it had been illegal to be a Jew in Spain. Yet no one with ANY common sense in the 20th century thought much of it, beyond symbolic importance (which is why it was eventually repealed officially). Jews in the 20th century openly lived and worked in Spain, and no one cared.
The same goes for the requirements you cited that discriminate against atheists or agnostics. Legislatures simply haven’t seen old, forgotten, unenforced laws as worthy of much attention. Neither should you.
Now, not allowing horses in saloons is outrageous. If I can drive up for a Starbucks; I damn well want to be allowed to ride right in to a saloon for a whiskey.
I think the Jews cared that it was still illegal to be jewish. Spain was then and was throughout most of its history and authoritarian regime. Our nation is supposed to be a democracy that values both free expression and separation of church and state. So the “good enough for Spain good enough for us” argument is not particularly convincing. Also, they attempted to enforce this in North Carolina in 2009. Enforcement is not really the issue. I know for a fact that in Texas candidates who are atheists are forced to essentially lie because part of the process to become a candidate still requires that they affirm that they believe in a Supreme Being. There is no question a legal challenge by a candidate would make the requirement unenforceable but the same legal challenge would make the candidate unelectable.
Well, your first assumption is wrong. I have classmates from Israel who worked in the rabbinate in Spain in the 90s, and I understand that most people didn’t even know the law still existed on the books; and the ones who did know saw it has a historical curiosity. Since it didn’t actually effect them, they were just grown-up about it and went on with their lives.
I your assertions are correct that these laws have been enforced/implemented in NC, TX or elsewhere then that is indeed a big problem. I’d like to see it substantiated somewhere. A candidate who chooses not to challenge the law because he’d rather get elected than pursue justice is a political hack and a coward – but that is a different issue.
[BTW, the voters as private citizens certainly have the right not to elect someone because they don’t like his religion or any other thing about him. It might be wrong; but as voters they are entitled to choose based on whatever criteria appeal to (or repel) them. That is one of the oldest arguments for having some sort of qualification requirement for voters, going all the way back to Plato; if not sooner.]
So Lars, in your view are the words in our Pledge of Allegiance “Under God” unconstitutional as well?
Speaking for myself, I would say that it is. Consider that it was only added in the 1950s at the start of the Cold War.
“In 1954, in response to the Communist threat(AKA Atheist Russian government) of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words “under God,” creating the 31-word pledge we say today. Bellamy’s daughter objected to this alteration.”
Here is a political cartoon around the 1940s on a unrelated issue as a reference to when the “under God” was not included.
Driving up to a window for a Starbucks is not quite the same as riding a horse into a saloon.
Cars only emit exhaust fumes into open air.
Horses are well-known to take a dump when under a roof. Ask me how much shit I’ve shoveled out of horse stalls.
Idiot is too high up the intellectual ladder for you, Lars. Moron is more apt. You are all over the damn place. You are one of those special morons who has a modicum of valid information about a subject and then thinks himself an expert. Pay me. Pay me good money and I will tutor you. In the mean time, why not STHU? Your ignorance is on full display and some impressionable youngster visiting here might mistakenly think you know what you’re talking about.
The Air Force recently refused to allow the re-enlistment of members because they would not take an oral oath to a God they did not believe in. Several careers were ended. Forcing religious dogma on people has it victims.
What are you babbling about?
Please go back and do your research regarding the Constitution, Bill of Rights (Amendments), and scholarly articles about state’s rights and other civics related topics — and then come back and enlighten us!
If you do not understand what I am babbling about then it is you that needs to go back and do some research. Not me.
My comment above was in response to LARS’ original post… on second thought maybe it should be in response to all his comments!
I’m sick and tired of all the thin skinned boneheads that are “offended” everytime the see a cross, Star of David, atheists’ anti-religion billboards, etc.
These folks need to get a grip!
Ah, yes, the old “Constitution is written in pencil” approach, AKA the “living document” argument.
Um, no. There is no separation clause, nor is this anywhere near any kind of “establishment.” It is a recognition that the vast majority of Americans of faith are Christians.
By this same logic we should remove all crosses, stars, and crescents from headstones in Arlington.
Progressive/liberals enjoy lecturing those who object to sex or obscenity on TV that if they don’t like it, they shouldn’t watch.
If a cross on a memorial bothers you, don’t look. It reflects the faith of the fallen, not yours.
But the faith of the fallen isn’t just Christian.
Technically, the 1st Amendment has been incorporated, so it actually applies to the states as well.
That said, it’s a bit ridiculous to get one’s panties in a wad over a bloody memorial.
I never said it didn’t. I said it originally didn’t.
Correct, originally it did not. I’m just saying that now it does, and therefore it is illegal for states as well as Congress to impose a state religion on the people.
Ironic that Duke was established by Methodists and Quakers.
I guess it would be kicking a dead horse to point out that the “constitution” which DOES use the terms regarding separation, is the constitution of the Soviet Union, NOT the constitution of the USA.
Just sayin’
Lars, I agree with most of what you said. I have much respect for those that hold their ground. We might disagree on some issues, but here is to ya brother.
I can disagree whit someone and still admire and respect them. Spent many a time standing guard over those that chose to pray. I can respect their right to worship as they choose, even if I know they are wrong.
Duke has changed their mind and will not broadcast the call for prayer.
Gee, darn.
They did the right thing. Now if I could just get those damn church bells to stop ringing through my house every Sunday morning. Oh well, I guess some religions get a special preference.
There is some really stupid laws on the books. Here is a link to just a few and many are still on the books. For example, where I live in Indiana you may not purchase a car on Sunday.
These are just a few, there are many many more.
http://www.stupidlaws.com/tag/religion/
Last I saw the only relevant phrase was that Congress should not establish a state religion or words to that effect. How modern legal ‘scholars’ bend and twist that to apply to things like this (not to mention the convoluted reasoning on interstate commerce etc.) is beyond me.
First Amendment:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with evolution. The strong will survive and the weak will die.
That goes for religions, too. So far, it looks like Islam and Atheism are neck and neck in a strong lead and drawing away, with Christianity bringing up a limping, gasping last.
I’m an atheist, and I honestly just don’t get it. What the hell is the big deal? Why are these monkeys getting so insulted at the sight of a cross? Who cares!!!
When my son was in elementary school, the Sheriff’s Deputy who taught his DARE class handed them literature from that Living Waters cult (the crazy Kirk Cameron organization) in school during the program. Now this shit tried to scare little kids into finding Jesus by telling them – through cutesy games and puzzles – that they could die tomorrow, and unless they accepted Jesus, they would be going to hell.
I drew the line at that. I don’t mind religion being discussed in class at all. Religion is a huge part of the history of this world. But I will NOT have a school affiliated individual in the position of authority telling my 11-year old son that he is a liar and a sinner, and that he’s going to hell unless he finds Jesus right the fuck now! I called the school and informed them of this bullshit, and it turned out the Deputy didn’t even run the materials by the school administrators before handing them out to kids. Unacceptable.
I consider THAT an unconstitutional, immoral, and unethical attempt to proselytize. But a monument with a cross on it? What the hell?
Seriously… atheists need to hike up their frilly girl panties and stop hyperventilating and grabbing at their pearls every time they see a religious symbol.
Idiots.
Nicki, I’m Christian — and agree wtih everything you’ve said above. I got one of those pamphlets when I was a young teenager, and it took some work to get the kink out of my brain that stupid thing put there. You’re absolutely right about that.
Years later, a friend of mine got an even worse shock. Both she and her younger sister (who was 14) loved and owned horses. The younger sister was riding her favorite mare one day when something spooked the horse. The horse reared up and fell over backwards, and just like that — my friend’s sweet, adorable little sister was dead. Her PREACHER told her that because her little sister wasn’t baptized, she was “not going to be with God.” It tore my friend apart, thinking that her little sister might not have gone to Heaven. My friend ended up breaking ties with her church — and in therapy — over this. All because of some dumbass who couldn’t find the compassion or decency to keep his yap shut in the face of a terrible, ragged sorrow.
I don’t blame atheists at all for what has been done to religion in this country — I blame mindless, brainless bigots who use their religion as a bludgeon, so they can feel superior to someone else. They do more damage to religion than any atheist ever hoped to.
Pinto Nag – that’s horrible! I’ve known quite a few folks who broke ties with their churches for such comments. It’s nauseating.
I remember when the man who was basically like a father to me when I was just a snot-nosed SPC on active duty died suddenly, we went to his funeral in his fucking crazy church.
A ton of people were there to say, “goodbye,” as was I with my family. My son was probably 5 years old or so. The preacher in that church spent the entire time hollering how if we don’t find Jesus right now, we’ll NEVER see Stan again, because he was saved and was going to heaven, and we were going to hell. He asked all present to sing “Amazing Grace,” and then told all of us who weren’t saved to sit down, because we were going to hell and shouldn’t be singing.
After we got in the car, my little boy asked me, “Mommy, am I going to hell?”
It broke my heart!
I think there are plenty of “mindless, brainless bigots” on all sides, including atheist, Christian, Jewish, etc. They don’t think. They don’t use human decency. They’re so fucking frothing about their faith or lack thereof, that they forget to be decent human beings.
Amen to that Nicki, I’ve dealt with my fair share of dickheaded religious zealots myself.
We brought this on ourselves by allowing every splinter group to sue the masses. What about the rights (if you will) of the majority. The majority stopped speaking up so we end up on our knees at the threat of a lawsuit. Look at the complaining of intolerance done by gays, muslims, atheists. Well the masses have to stand up and say “What about My Rights”? Don’t see it happening so we are in for more kowtowing. JMHO..
Religion is a belief system. Atheists believe there is no God. Ergo, atheism is a religion, and it is being forced down the throats of everyone who isn’t a believer.
I always wonder why they have to get right in your face about it.
We should get these people and the jihaid their very own planet. Call it Hell, and send them there.
I would dispute that. You can’t base a religion on what you do NOT believe. It’s not that we believe there is no god. It’s that we do not believe there is one. There is a difference. I don’t know of any atheist – when shown SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE of the existence of a supernatural being that created the world – who would stick to their belief system.
I do not believe there is a God. That doesn’t mean I can’t be persuaded through science.
But again, these aggrieved snowflakes are just looking to be offended.
Nicki, there are a lot of people who profess to be atheists who do not appear to understand the distinction that you draw. If atheism is defined as the absence of belief, that appears to describe you: you don’t believe, but you don’t care one way or the other if others do. Others, however, not only don’t believe, but it offends them that others do; they think that believers are idiots, and they don’t hesitate to point this out, at great length. Maybe such people need a different label: call them anti-theists.
“Maybe such people need a different label: call them anti-theists.”
I call those people idiots. LOL
I don’t understand how anyone can be offended by another person’s belief, as long as that belief doesn’t obligate anyone else to anything. It’s stupid as hell.
I think you are spot on. I am anti-theist as well as Atheist. Saying I am an Atheist does not tell you what I am, it tells you what I am not. It not that I don’t believe in religions, I disbelieve them. Meaning I can prove to most people that what they believe is untrue. Not with opinion, with factual information about their religion.
Well said Nicki, religion is the faith that something that is incapable of being proven is still a reality and not to be ignored.
I have no such faith.
I find the science of our existence due to a cosmic accident of chemistry far more compelling, although for many people it seems that is quite unsettling, than belief in a fairy tale being who knows and sees all and has nothing better to do than determine various ways to punish those he created in his own image after the death of those creations for failure to worship in an appropriate fashion.
I am not offended by a cross in a gravesite, although I must confess I have often wondered if Jesus had been executed with a different methodology such as hanging would people be walking around with little silver or gold nooses?
I don’t care about this cross stuff one way or the other, but it seems to me that in many places it’s a simple move from a cross at a gravesite to a sculpture of the ten commandments in a courtroom.
Which has been done before, I’m pretty certain I prefer judges who use the law and not god to help them adjudicate cases appearing before them.
Maybe that means that sometimes a few christians or muslims or jews or hindus or whatever are upset they don’t get to display their cross/symbol/what have you on a piece of public land.
Freedom isn’t about the rights of the many, it’s about the rights of the few not to be overwhelmed by the belief systems of the many regardless of the many’s feelings on the subject.
To paraphrase Heinlein:
The human race divides politically (and morally I would suggest) into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort.”
I think the saying that, “There are no atheists in foxholes.” might have some truth to it. I admit to having been a Deist of convenience sometimes.
I don’t identify as an atheist anymore than I identify as an antisantaist. I find others feel it’s important to label me because I don’t believe.
My dog tags said “NO PREF” not atheist because I have zero preference for religion..I just don’t care until someone makes it necessary to address it.
My dog tag actually said I was Jewish, but that was for my family’s sake more than mine.
VOV, I’m so there with you!
VOV – Sorry for my inelegant post. I was not attempting to hang any labels on you. My comment was directed at your statement “I have no such faith.”
I have no such faith either … except when my kid is in the hospital (as an example) and I find my self thinking “God please let him be okay” or something to that effect. This, in spite of my logical rejection of faith and the existence of a deity. Just pointing out my own human weakness and hypocrisy. That’s all.
My favorite comment comes from a televangelist that said, “When Jesus called his followers ‘sheep,’ He WASN’T paying them a compliment!”
The Bible is a spiritual primer, like the picture books you find in pre-schools. It’s full of thrilling stories of human drama, some of which might even be true. But a complete description of the full nature of God? Not even close.
The epiphany I had about God came when I saw a NASA picture of two galaxies colliding. If there is a God who created THAT…there’s no way to fit Him into a book.
Atheism is a religion like NOT collecting stamps is a hobby. I can prove beyond any doubt that the very foundations of your religion what ever that may be are false. They open for opinion or interpretation, they are false. I can prove it. I used to be a Christian. I have studied and continue to study Biblical Scholarship. I blog about, I publicly debate it, I spend more time online with that topic than I do on this one.
I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you and defend your right to believe what you choose. I expect the same from you when religious people go to far.
Funny; C.S. Lewis used to be an athiest and set out to prove there is no God.
Just sayin’
I can not prove there is no God. I no more prove there is no Yahweh anymore than I can prove there is no Thor. What I can prove is the foundations that all three monotheistic faiths have are false.
Never quote CS Lewis in a debate with an Atheist, it only ends in embarrassment.
Like I give a fuck. I’m not embarrassed and there is nothing you can say to make me embarrassed, when it comes to religion. I don’t give a fuck if you worship a rock, twig, the lint in your navel, or anything else. What I dislike about most athiests is that they are like Prius owners; full of smug, as if they’re opinion is the only correct one. What you, incorrectly assumed, is that I’m a big CS Lewis fan, or that I give his opinion much more gravity than others. I just pointed out that not everything you said is fact. Yours is an opinion, just like you claim of those that have religious leanings. You’re not more enlightened or intellectually superior because you don’t believe in a higher being, just as those that do, aren’t either.
I am about as smug as your crusty old ass, oh wait am I older than you. If you dont have a fuck to give then dont post shit as if you do. No, everything I said is not opinion. Most of it is fact. Actually on this particular topic I more enlightened than most. This article is about something I have followed for 5 years now. People on both sides of the fence are wrong. 20% of this country answers ‘none’ when asked what religious belief they hold. That is 1 in 5 people. If fellow Christians would have stood up and said, take that flag out of the memorial this would have been over years ago. No, they couldn’t do that, no outrage from other Christians about it. The there are now countless articles deliberately misleading people about what happened so they can get the usual jerk knee response from those who do not think before they react. This display of Christian Flag does not piss me off as much as the memorials being erected in the name of Atheist veterans. Using my service to highlight their own agenda is bullshit from either side. I don’t worship anything but if i did i wouldn’t wave it in your face.
I used to be a Christian.
No, you weren’t.
Oh, yes I was. There were times when I could feel what I choose to call the presence of Jesus Christ so strongly I could almost reach out and touch him. I gave my first sermon at age 15. Studied religion, traveled with Father Joe Martin for a shot time. It is common for people to think that if you were really a Christian then you could never turn from the Holy Spirit. I understand that, I used to believe that.
I am Atheist mostly because of my studies of Biblical Scholarship and the issue of suffering. I respect your right to believe as you choose, I will defend it. I disagree with it.
Sorry. It is one thing to say you believe you were but the fact remains that you were not.
Ok, then prove it.
This is just the sort of thing that torques me right the fuck off. Who the fuck can tell another person, whom they only know via a couple internet posts, that they aren’t or are anything? I may be a rockstar…an elected official or a prison inmate or a potato. Whothefuckareyou to say that I am or am not?
I have no idea how that is done. He seems to know, thought I would give him the opportunity to explain it.
He said he knows for a fact I was not a Christian. Facts can be proven, the test can be repeated, observed and so on.
Best Regards
Do you weigh more than a duck?
Well, hell, I really didn’t expect a Spanish Inquisition!
I apologize. I absolutely didn’t mean to start anything. I consider folks here my friends, and I’m fine with whatever they do or don’t believe. I just wanted to make clear that there is a difference as far as the definition of atheism goes.
And with that, I bow out of the conversation.
No worries, Nicki, we still love and respect you! As my grandpa used to say “opinions are like assholes; everyone has one and they all stink”. I’m not trying to force my views of religion on anyone else and I don’t take offense when someone has a differing opinion, however, I think that some militant atheists get their panties all twisted up over the dumbest shit, like this monument.
It’s not bothering anyone, it’s not forcing anyone to convert to Christianity, and it’s not something that will haunt your dreams if you happen to see it. If it does any of those things, then you weren’t very stable to begin with.
If this atheist group is as brave as they think they are; then why don’t they start taking on the muslim incursion happening in our public spaces? They continue to go after the low hanging fruit, which happens to always be Christians. They aren’t very intellectually honest.
We do take them on. I do all the time, in public. A short glance at my Facebook page will show a history of me doing exactly that. Pissed off a bunch of them right here in the U S of A.
Belief in science put men on the moon, belief in that religion put planes into buildings.
Really? When was the last time you filed a lawsuit to get muslim footbaths removed from public colleges and airports? My college spent several hundred thousand dollars to put them in and it’s a public college. When my youngest daughter was in junior high school, a special prayer room was created for the muslim kids to use during Ramadan and EID, but they don’t allow christian kids to pray anywhere on school grounds. If you guys are that whipped up about a flag on a memorial, then those examples should send you guys to a near stroke. When I see the lawsuit filed against those things, then I will give you credit. Facebook doesn’t count.
I have noticed that militant atheists are as easily offended as militant muslims.
I referred you to Facebook for information about what other things we do, not to imply that Facebook was the action. I did not know about these things at these schools. FFRF should have been and will now be notified about this. You could have notified them since they seem to be one of the few groups that have the balls to do something about it. You do not have to be an Atheist to stop shit that is wrong.
The idea that Atheist’s are willing to put up with Muslims breaching the constitution is nonsense. It is one of those things that some Christians like to say to play the victim card.
I will try to track these two events down, I have not heard of them before, if I can find them they will be stopped.
The school prayer room seems cut and dry if it is a public school. If the FFRF has been notified and did not act I will damn sure find out why and publicly hold them accountable.
Foot washing for religious purposes seems as stupid to an Atheist as drinking the blood and eating the flesh of a two thousand year old Jew. Spending tax dollars to support either is not only wrong it is the willful celebration of ignorance with public funds.
If you gave me the names of the schools that would be helpful. If that is too much to ask I will find them on my own.
Lastly dear christian, what the fuck did you do to try and stop it other than get all pissy with Atheists. Like, what action did you personally take. If attempts have already been made but failed to correct the issue, it would be helpful to know why.
Try to at least provide the names of these places to someone who will take action. That would be me, your friendly Atheist.
And my answer is that I have seen so many things happen which defied the explanations and analysis of science that I have only been able to conclude there must be some sort of power at work in the universe.
Some of them have happened to me.
That’s all I have to say.
How very ignorant of you. Sounds like you and ISIS have more in common than the atheists do.
This case had nothing to do with a poorly done metal cut out of a soldier and a cross. It started because of a flag. It has be going on for years. The local government insisted that flag poles be erected to display the flags of all branches of service, state flag, national flag, and a CHRISTIAN FLAG.
A Christian flag has no business being displayed next to the national flag at a publicly funded memorial.
I am not offended by Christian symbols any more than I am offended by the Easter Bunny. Its not about being offended, it is about being wrong.
Our founding fathers were NOT Christians. Adams was Unitarian, Jefferson so loathed the bible he rewrote it taking out all references to supernatural events you can view it at the Smithsonian. Franklin thought light houses were far more useful than churches. Washington only attended church with his wife who was a christian but refused to attend if communion was being done.
The Treaty of Tripoli, one of the first agreements made with a foreign country was unanimously ratified by congress and written by Washington and signed into law by Adams states: “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion”.
I do not like or support erecting veteran monuments to honor Atheist veterans on public land. There is a movement to do exactly that. I speak out against it aggressively.
This township uses a veterans memorial to climb on their high horse and wave a christian flag as if they are defending their right to worship as they choose. There is a place for that, its called church. When people defend themselves against religious aggression its called an attack on christian values.
This story has been deliberately manipulated by Christians that know they are misrepresenting what happened.
I didn’t know this. What is a Christian flag, exactly? Can you provide some links for background, please?
Thanks!
Does seem to be more here than the memorial.
http://myfox8.com/2014/07/08/federal-judge-rules-king-christian-flag-suit-can-go-to-trial/
I would be glad to. This case has been going on for years. This blog is not the forum I choose to post in depth about the topic. I separate the two topics as much as possible.
If you would like to know more about this or any other topic related to it please contact me on my Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/dave.hardin.908
http://img.opposingviews.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/350×250/featured_image/alts/0115/christianflag.jpg
Very interesting post, and thanks for the information. I did not know those historical details.
I am very happy some lawyers got paid, some media got a juicy local story.
In the end…what did this prove or do?
Not a damn thing other then some vet had nothing else better to do with his/her time.
Damn skippy!
What if this “Vet” turns out to be another poser?
Then he needs a dick punch.
Wait till we get out in space and run into other civilizations that never heard of Jesus, God, any prophet of any kind, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
That should provide some entertaining dialogue.
Or, we get out in space and the guy(thing, being) at the hatch says, “God”? “Yeah, he’s up on the bridge”.
Try looking up James Blish’s A Case of Conscience.
It would be really cool if a private citizen placed the memorial on private land in public view or a store owner placed the memorial in his or her store front window.
Very pathetic that a memorial would have to placed as such but at least those that want to honor service members’ sacrifice could do so.
Tinman. They are commercially available. The lawn-sized one runs around $250 but they come in all sizes. I would love to see about 1000 cardboard ones made by North Carolinians, painted black, and placed throughout the park some rainless weekend.
Exactly that has already happened at this location. There have been many protests there. I dont pull up crosses along the highway, I do not deface religious symbols anywhere, I do not know one Atheist that does.
I would support and defend any person who put 10,000 of them on private land. 1 in 5 people state they have no religion. Put it up on tax free church grounds for the world to see and I will defend it.
All I want to know is do I still have a Constitutional right to wash my feet in the Muslim Footbaths installed at San Francisco Public Airport, Kansas City Public Airport, University of Michigan Dearborne, Boston University, Cal State-Fullerton, University of Wisconsin-Madison, and Washington University of St. Louis?
And of course “wash my feet” might be a coded phrase. Nudge nudge Wink wink KnoWhatImean?
Hmmm. Very interesting question. The answer is that if the government attempted to keep you from doing so, it would have to do so on a “Muslim-only” basis, wouldn’t it? And that’s a problem, at least for the government. It’s another matter entirely to drop a Baby Ruth in such a vessel but the question you raise is a good one. Of course, a few Muslims might intercede on the spot, but that’s another matter entirely.
I did not know such a thing existed. I want to wash me feet while eating a bacon sandwich and chanting a few hail Mary’s. Thats crazy, tell me there is some charge. I have to look into this. Whats next, Holy water at the gate, an E-meter for Scientology, a God could only know what the Voodoo crowd will demand.
Stick pins, the voodoo crowd demands stick pins. LOL
Do the people who raise these issues also see an implication that only red brick buildings may be built in a county with a red brick court house? That leap makes just as much sense as most of the discussion surrounding this topic.
Well, on behalf of us sinners who do believe in God Almighty and do attend church regularly, I must say that I had no idea how many of you aren’t and that changes…nothing. You remain a collection of dickweeds of the lowest order and I remain proud to be among you.
Love ya anyway brother, and no I am not that gay friend you are looking for. Semper Fi.
Amazing how people who don’t believe in a higher power can get so butthurt over the possibility of one.
I lived in the pit of hell regarding left wingers, Madison Wisconsin for about 15 years and saw this crap first hand.
Annie Laurie Gaylor is the head of the group that goes around and files lawsuits against towns and cities so they can settle out of court to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.
Annie Gaylor keeps most of the money herself and the “movement” actually has only about fifteen maybe twenty members.
But, since they are left wingers the press in Madison has breathless orgasms and quotes her like she was a God herself.
If atheists don’t care which God we pray to why are they always telling us that we can’t pray to a Gode in their line of sight ???
I dont care if you pray. If you do in my presence I will be respectful and silent about it. If you try to run a christian flag up a veterans monument on public grounds I will do everything I can to have it legally removed. I would do the same thing if it was an Atheist flag.
Annie Gaylor does not agree with me on several issues. However, she does not keep most of the money. They publish a open financial statement annually. Her and her husband Dan Barker run FFRF, I do not agree with everything they do. I do agree with a lot of it. There are over 22,000 members at FFRF.
http://ffrf.org/
I find your comment ironic. Tell me the last time you were forced to stand in formation for an atheist prayer?
The hilarity being militant atheists are almost more obnoxious than Islamists trying to kill us.
First time I have heard someone say bleeding and dying while fighting the enemy is obnoxious. Statements like that are the reason some people are erecting veteran memorials dedicated to Atheist veterans. There are more than a few dead men with no faith in a god that gave that sacrifice so you can worship yours.