Civil War stolen valor?
Mr. Wolf sent us a link to Dead Confederates in which the blog does some good old fashioned research on this fellow, Dr. R. A. Gwynne, who showed up at the “Last Confederate Reunion” in 1944 at Montgomery, Alabama. That’s him in the front – he claimed that he served in the Civil War on the Confederate side as a body guard. Andy Hall, the author did some research in the US Census on Doctor Gwynne and discovered that unless he went to war as a ten-year-old child, he couldn’t have served in the Confederate Army as much of anything. I just thought that it was interesting. Your mileage may vary.
Category: Phony soldiers
This was actually a huge problem, on both Confederate and Union sides. Even the Ken Burn’s series, “The Civil War,” inadvertently used a SV faker in talking about the “last Confederate soldier.” Turns out the guy was 6 years old in 1865.
I wrote a joke about the photo … however considering the fragile state of race relations in our POST RACIAL society, I have decided not to post it!
Perhaps marching cadence drummer grew into “bodyguard” over the years. It’s plausible(think Glory).
Everywhere you go…there they are.
Well you guys already talked about this in the 1940s
Wartime Racketeers; stolen valor during WWII
http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=39920
I wonder if it was an issue in the early 1900s, during or after WWI the Great War.
I suspect, from extrapolating life’s examples, it’s an issue around the time of *any* wars.
I remember reading somewhere that the Greeks noticed a lot more guys claiming to have kicked Persian ass than actually showed up at Marathon, Thermopylae, and Salamis.
WWI? A mere nothing.
Try the Peninsular Wars against Napoleon.
The claim is plausible, if improbable. The youngest documented Civil War soldier was the Union’s Johnny Clem. He served as a drummer boy at age 9.
Despite his young age, Clem’s duties were not limited to drumming. Drummer boys often carried stretchers when not drumming. Further, Clem actually fought at Chickamauga (by then, he’d turned 12) and several other battles. His actions at Chickamauga won him an appointment as a Sergeant – the youngest NCO in US Army history.
Clem ended up making the Army a career, retiring as a Major General just before World War I.
http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/biographies/john-clem.html
I was just going to mention Drummer..
I don’t believe the Confederates kept good personnel records.
Also the title of Bodyguard could be plausible as well, because he was probably some Officers slave and he wouldn’t be mentioned on the Unit T&OE because he was considered personal property of that Officer.
WALT DISNEY’S “JOHNNY SHILOH”
http://writesong.blogspot.com/2013/10/johnny-shiloh.html
“I don’t believe the Confederates kept good personnel records.”
You would be surprised. Often it is easier to locate the records for a Confederate soldier than for a Federal. In many cases, the Federal records are filed incorrectly or otherwise scattered around the bureaucratic system.
Confederate records were “captured” and often cataloged with care by archivists.
Beyond just personnel records, the Confederate War Department kept a damn good set of records on expenditures. I’ve seen receipts for a single box of matches or a stack of memo papers. Everything is in right good order up until about mid-1864… It seems the active files had not been moved to the “archive” when Richmond fell. And thus a lot were burned.
my records were burned in the fire of `64 , LOL
It is quite possible that he did serve. There are records of kids of that age serving. But his duties could have been as a stretcher bearers and musicians.
Yeah, I don’t think we can draw such clear distinctions of “service” for then as we can for more recent conflicts. There were a lot of duties that a young boy might have performed then that would have exposed him to great danger and if he felt justified claiming veteran status (and the other vets accepted him based on that) I wouldn’t contest it.
One of my great uncles (g-g-grandfather’s brother) joined the Confederate Army in 1861 at the age of 12. He went off to war with his 18 year old brother. He lasted through the whole thing, all the way to Appomattox.
My guess is that this guy was a manservant of some kind. A sword carrier and bottle washer, as it were. Still, he could have gone away at a young age and if the Confederates didn’t kick him out of their picture, then I’m cool with him.
It could have happened: http://media.morristechnology.com/mediafilesvr/upload/gainesville/article/0507Portraits-manandservant.jpg
“Unidentified Captain taken by photographer A.J. Riddle of Macon, this image shows an unidentified Confederate captain and his manservant. The boy is notable today for what he’s wearing — a custom-tailored, nine-button shell jacket, matching trousers and kepi. During the war, slaves served in the field and encampments, performing duties such as cooking, nursing the sick and performing general labor. “
2T451
What the hell is a General Purpose Vehicle AFSC? (no disrespect, just curious)
I just retired in 2007 and I had 2 of the 3 enlisted AFSCs in the Transportation Branch (at the time) 602/2T1X1 Surface Freight/Traffic Management/TMO and then 605/2T0X1 Air Transportation/Aerial port.
The only other one (2?) at the time was 603/2T1/2T3 Vehicle Slops (Ops) and Maintenance.
Where (when) in the the glorious fucks did our beloved USAF come up with all these other secondary ASFCs and miscellaneous weird shit? Did I miss something???
Bye the way, according to this chart, you are ONE of a KIND in AFSCs. (Really? not sure about its accuracy)
————
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blnumafenlisted.htm
2T0X1-Traffic Management, 1,984
2T1X1-Vehicle Operations, 2,328
2T2X1-Air Transportation, 4,154
2T3X1-Special Purpose Vehicle & Equipment Maintenance, 1,664
2T3X2-Special Vehicle Maintenance, 424
2T3X4-General Purpose Vehicle Mechanic, 1,002
2T3X5-Vehicle Body Maintenance, 221
2T3X7-Vehicle Maintenance Control & Analysis, 334
2T4X1-General Purpose Vehicle, 1
Don’t forget 2T3X2 A and B shred to designate firetruck maintenace and 463L. I was a 2T370 for a time which encompassed all the Maintenance AFSC’s.
B was for refuelers; 47231C was for 463L and 47231D was for I forget, other aircraft service vehicles like the honey wagons maybe?
About 1985 the 463L’s and the D AFSCs were thrown back in with the 47230 & 47250. All of the vehicle maintenance AFSCs except the GP and Maintenance Control & Analysis types were combined at the 7 level as 47271. GP types were 47270’s and Maintenance Control types remained in out in left field. All of the vehicle maintenance AFSCs combined at the 9 level as 47299’s. I was awarded T47299; the T is for instructor. My DD form 214 states T2T399 (I think); I still get the 2T AFSC’s confused.
When I first went to tech school at Chanute in March 1992 my AFSC was 472X2. During Tony McPeak’s epic screwing up of the Air Force that AFSC was changed to 2T4X1. They both stood for General Purpose Vehicle Mechanic. The GP guys worked on cars, trucks, busses and whatever the Air Force had that the Army might consider the territory of the “big wheel mechanic”. Like cowpill mentioned there were separate AFSCs for firetrucks, fuels, special purpose (K-loaders, bulldozers, etc) and allied trades (body shop). There was also MC&A (Maintenance Control and Analysis), but I don’t remember if there was a school for that and I haven’t a clue what the AFSC was. (As an aside for other old time maintenance guys, I talked to somebody a couple of years ago and they were still using OLVMS. Effing OLVMS!)
I’ve been out since 1996 and AFSCs have probably changed since then. I don’t remember a 2T3 designation. Of course, when I was in I belonged to the 97th Transportation Squadron, LGTM. I don’t know if the LGTM part has changed (probably has), but I know the squadron is now the 97th Logistics Readiness Squadron. Transportation in general, and maintenance specifically, was never all that well respected a career field. It doesn’t surprise me that they’ve taken a lot of jobs and mashed them all together into one.
Yep, I totally remember when it happened when I was active duty at Kaenda AB in Okinawa. I was the freight side of the house with Packing and Crating and TMO and then they combined the career fields.
They also did it with the Air Freight and Passenger Services folks and the Special Handling (HAZMAT)and Air Terminal Operations Center (ATOC).
I was able to get my 3 levels at tech school and then either on active duty or reserve, as the case was at the time, I was able to get my 5, 7 and 9 levels through CDCs, OJT and then through the Course 9 and Course 14 for NCO and SNCO Skill levels crap.
ChipNASA has it right; MC&A is 2T3X7. When you were at Chanute the MC&A school had returned to Lowry. It rejoined the rest of the Vehicle Maintenance Schools at Lackland when Lowry and Chanute closed. All of the vehicle maintenance schools moved to Port Hueneme; however, there is some talk of moving MC&A back to Lackland.
When were you in, Dennis? If we were in at the same time then we probably knew some of the same people. Vehicle Maintenance was a pretty small career field, all things considered. I knew a guy that went to Lackland to be a firetruck instructor in about 94 and I’ve known a couple of guys who went to Port Hueneme.
I joined in 1975 and retired in 1995. In 1983 I was retrained into Vehicle Maintenance.
Getting a bit afield; but the lesson in this for the phonies is, “give it up”. You may claim to have the oat-meal cluster on the silver spoon, but everybody knows some one and it just takes a few minutes of goof-off time at work for them to find each other and prove or dis-prove your point.
We were probably at Chanute at the same time in 1983 then, too. I was just a kid, though. I was there with my dad in the second half of ’83 while he attended AMOC. It’s a small world.
I’ve come to belive that stolen valor is/was far more common then can possibly believe.
only modern technology has allowed us to Confirm/deny it with any sort of accuracy
Thanks for highlighting this story. I myself don’t consider this a “stolen valor” case in the modern sense, like someone wearing medal they didn’t earn, or claiming military service they didn’t have. I don’t believe that Rev. Gwynne was fooling anybody in Montgomery, or explicitly claiming military service. If you read contemporary accounts of that reunion, they’re clear enough about Gwynne’s wartime status as a personal servant — or “body guard,” as the euphemism came to be. Additional discussion here:
http://deadconfederates.com/2010/11/29/reunion-images-more-complicated-than-they-seem/
I dug into Gwynne’s story because that photograph, by itself, is sometimes cited as evidence of African Americans serving as enlisted soldiers in the Confederate Army. That argument is made fairly often — “see, they attended soldiers’ reunions, so they were soldiers!” The reality is a more complex than that, and while former body servants like Gwynne did indeed attend reunions with white veterans, there was a very clear demarcation among those present about their respective status during the war. It’s folks today who are either confused or (in some cases) blatantly dishonest about it.
For what it’s worth: the fact that a bunch of former Confederates in Montgomery, Alabama, in 1944 appear to have accepted this guy’s claims as valid seems to me to be significant. Given the state of race relations in the Deep South at that time, I kinda doubt they’d have just taken him at his word without some serious questioning and checking.
Men like Gwynne were present at many Confederate reunions — but they were understood and recognized as former servants. Here’s what John Brown Gordon, first C-in-C of the United Confederate Veterans, wrote about them:
See the distinction between what Brown referred to as “faithful servants” and “the veterans” with whom they met at reunions?
Andy Hall: I wasn’t implying they accepted him as a former equal, or that he’d served as a “regular” Confederate soldier. Having grown up in the Deep South, I can guarantee that a group of old white men accepting a black man as an equal wasn’t happening very often in the 1960s, much less twenty years previously.
But the fact that those former Confederates didn’t chase the guy off – with police assistance, if necessary, under that era’s Jim Crow laws – to me means they accepted his claims of having served in some capacity. If that was as an officer’s personal servant, a drummer boy, a stretcher bearer, whatever – they nonetheless recognized it as service.
And regardless of the type of service, on the battlefields of that day he would have been at risk. Union drummer boy (and later 12-year-old Sergeant) Johnny Clem was wounded in action twice, and was held for a while as a POW.
If those old Confederates were OK with his claims, so am I. They were there – I wasn’t.
Pretty much yes to all of that. That’s not how men like Gwynne are often presented today, which is why I did the digging into his story in the first place.
Agreed. Just clarifying my intent in case I’d been misunderstood.
Free blacks in the South did fight in the Confederate Army. Free blacks in the South also had slaves. If it’s still in print read: “The Black Slave Masters of South Carolina.” The book also states that Louisiana also had more Free Black Slave Owners than any other state.
True, but note Dr. Gwynne’s position: he is sitting on the stoop while Col. Sanders and the others are standing.
For what it’s worth, none of my six Confederate relatives & ancestors were slave owners; though, my gg-grandfather’s wife was Creek/Muskogee (he also fought in the Second Creek War after his uncle and family were massacred in 1835).
See my later comment to Andy Hall above, rgr1480.
I never said the old Confederates accepted the man as an equal. But they apparently did accept his claims of some type of service in the Confederate cause as valid – or they’d have had him removed from their presence, perhaps forcibly. That would have been legally and socially permissible in 1944 Alabama.
As far as I know, the same is true of my Southern ancestors – all we know about appear to have been too poor to have owned slaves. But I can’t say that definitively, as we haven’t traced the family tree completely during the slave era (1700s-1865). I guess it’s possible one of them could have originally been from a rich family and been a “ne’er do well”. (smile)
His daughter didn’t happen to marry a Wsckre by chance?
He wouldn’t show up in military records as he technically wasn’t in the Army. Also keep in mind that prior to the civil war slaves were not individually enumerated in the census, and that slave birth dates post war were determined as much by guess as anything else. At best we can say that he was a young boy who served as a body servant — valet, flunky, chief cook, bottle washer, or whatever — who served in the Civil War and whose service was recognized as such by veterans eighty years later in a society that was very antagonistic to blacks.
I don’t think that there is any stolen valor issue here.
By the same token, any claim that large numbers of blacks served willingly in the Confederate Army is pure garbage. For those who think otherwise, look at the “turd in the punch bowl” treatment given to MG Patrick Cleburne’s January, 1864 proposal that slaves (and their families) be given their freedom if they served in a combat branch of the Confederate Army.
I know that referring to “blacks” is most politically incorrect. The politically correct alternative, though, would be to refer to these good people as “African Confederates” which would send those concerned direct to the fainting couch.
Sick as it sounds today, there was a state tax issue involved, too. There was no uniform tax category for slaves; some were taxed as chattel and others as real estate (Don’t ask me!) Accordingly, the count of slaves, as well as birth records were, at best, suspect. But Andy here says his source was a census so I’m good with that. And, as a rule, it is hard to mistake a 10 year ld for a five or fifteen year old.
There is no way that guy is a fake – they didn’t have the internet back then.
I ell oh ell’d at this.