LT Sage Santangelo; still whiney
The folks at ABC News sent us this link to their interview with LT Sage Santangelo, the woman Marine who failed to make the grade at the Marine Corps’ Infantry Officer Course a few months ago. She went on to write an op/ed piece in the Washington Post.
As it turns out, the commandant of the Marine Corps, James Amos, ghost wrote the piece with the young 2LT, because, for some reason the issue was important to him. Probably not because the civilian leadership has made it important, or probably so.
Santangelo still won’t accept responsibility for her own unpreparedness for participation in the course. She says that the Marine Corps set her up for failure by making initial training different for men and women.
[W]hen she joined the Marines, Santangelo found the playing field changed; she was segregated into female-only training units and as a woman, was relegated to less strenuous physical training than her male counterparts. And that’s why, Santangelo told “On the Radar,” she didn’t have a fair shot at passing the Marine Corps’ Infantry Officer Course.
Or, maybe she thought that she’d be held to a different standard in the men-only infantry course, too. She had a fair shot at the course, and failed herself by not training properly. 23 men failed right along side of her. Did the Marines fail to prepare them, too? Or did they fail to prepare themselves?
For some stupid reason (probably for politically expedient purposes) Santangelo is getting another shot at the course. I could see that if she was going to be allowed to use the skills that she learned at the school, but she won’t. Since she now knows what to expect in the course, she can properly prepare herself, but how many women will be allowed to do the same? And for what purpose?
But, as we’ve all known since we read Santangelo’s Washington Post piece, this has been about LT Santangelo, not the Marine Corps or even women in combat. I wonder what her excuse will be when she fails next time.
Category: Military issues
But she won’t “fail,” because the USMC leadership will make sure that she succeeds by pushing her along. It wouldn’t surprise me to see that standards are either dropped or that when she fails a in a particular area that it’s pencil-whipped to ensure that it’s now a “passing grade.” Seriously, does anybody honestly think the current senior leadership will do the right thing here? We already know Big Army’s answer to that one, why would you expect it to be any different with the Marines?
When 2LT Santangelo makes another (failing) attempt at IOC, her fellow students will know her for the blue falcon/spotlight ranger that she is. She will receive no help or support from them. And she’ll whine about that. The instructors and cadre will either pencil whip “passing” scores for her or do their best to fail her out of the course (and if that happens she’ll whine about being “targeted”). Amos is without a doubt the worst Commandant in my lifetime and probably the history of the Corps
Sage Santangelo is all about Sage Santangelo. Famous Amos is all about using her. Questions?
Only one question; How long before Sage-babe is discharged with a life long “injury” disability?
Amos, of course, is an Obamabot, and will facilitate Sage to the max.
Lt Kara Hultgreen was passed and sent to a F-14 squadron when her instructor had tried to wash her out. Another politically expedient move…..worked out well for her….
Isn’t she the one who failed to take emergency action from a bad cat shot and had an aircraft carrier run over her plane?
Not exactly-she was killed after a failed landing attempt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Hultgreen#Death
Thanks… knew something went badly wrong and read at the time that her training was largely pencil-whipped to get her certified as the first carrier fighter pilot or some such – saw some speculation that had she been as thoroughly challenged as the men that she would probably have escaped the situation alive. No idea how accurate that is.
“Hultgreen was commissioned through the Aviation Officer Candidate School at Naval Air Station Pensacola, where she was a Distinguished Naval Graduate.[1] Upon graduation she was assigned to Training Air Wing FOUR at Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, Texas for primary flight trainng in the T-34C Turbomentor.
Following designation as a Naval Aviator, she received orders to fly EA-6A Prowlers with Tactical Electronic Warfare Squadron THIRTY-THREE (VAQ-33) at NAS Key West, Florida.[2] Upon the Navy’s integration of women in combat in 1993, LT Hultgreen was selected to be among the first female pilots to undergo F-14 Tomcat training at NAS Miramar, California.”
No wonder she crashed. She went from Pensacola to Corpus Christie to Key West to Miramar. Hell, her career was nothing more than a 6-year-long spring break.
The issue was that she had to little time in any one aircraft to gain a degree of proficiency.
The Navy actually ran a series of simulator tests with over a dozen pilots where they had to respond to the same engine malfunction that she experience. Only one was able to save the aircraft, an officer with almost 1000 hours in the airframe.
According to one of the officers that investigated her mishap, all of the male pilots were able to recover the the aircraft when they were initially given her problem in the simulator. They just put in the correct control inputs. The test was rerun using the control inputs that Lt Hultgreen used (cross controlled with full right rudder and left aileron). The is was the test that was presented to the media.
I actually admire her spunk for wanting to give it another shot. I’m not going to silently cheer her on or hope she fails. My only hope is that they will maintain the integrity of the course.
Who knows, maybe she will make it to day two or three.
There already is plenty of data to prove that it’s not feasible to put women through SOI or IOC. The attrition rate is just too high.
JaOD:
The integrity of the course is already broken by her and those who facilitate her.
The course is a one time shot deal unless it was physical injury that caused the drop. In that case, time is allowed for the individual to heal up, and then they can try again.
But, the POS and all those dishonorable and no integrity having degenerates aiding and abetting her, gets a do over simply because she wants one.
Semper Fi. It’s just a slogan now.
And the 23 other students that failed the course along with her will be told to suck it up and drive on. Where’s their second chance?
Actually, the men are allowed to retake the course, however they can go on to be infantry officers, Santangelo’s second shot won’t have any impact on the Corp at all. But she’ll feeel better about herself, and that is all that’s really important.
Thanks for the clarification.
That, and Amos will pat himself on the back, or have SgtMaj Barrett do it, for doing “the right thing”.
I wonder, will they both trot up to the WH to get patted on the head, or just Famous Amos. H/T to Air Cav.
Oh, so I see now. She still won’t be an Infantry Officer but her self esteem will get a big kick in the rear. Isn’t that just fucking special! Meanwhile we go to the expense of putting her through again. To what gain I ask? It has always been all about HER thus far, so I guess in keeping with Amos’ and his ass kisser’s mind set, it will still end up being all about HER! Fucking clowns anyway.
The second shot, for males, is only if they were dropped, or had to quit, for injury reasons. No “just because I want to” do overs.
At least, that’s my understanding.
Male students are allowed to get another shot at the course. The “experiment” with female candidates was different. It was probably implied that the data collected was going to be for a set of females to make ONE attempt at passing the school. Multiple attempts would muddy the water. If a female attempts it and fails twice is she considered one or two failures? If she passes it is it going to be one failure and one pass in the stats? Shit gets deep.
I think the “one shot” was due more to ensuring that the female officers would still be able to complete their MOS qualification course with sufficient time to not put promotion/augmentation at risk.
A good policy in general, but perhaps a little common sense could have been applied on a case by case basis.
Now, the question why the LT’s flight school was scheduled for a year plus from when she completed the basic course opens a whole other raft of question IMHO, like why wasn’t someone in her position already slotted for an MOS course first as a back up in case they washed out flight school? As a taxpayer, having LT’s waiting 12 months for training pipelines to accept them is just wrong and not a good use of my tax dollars.
“My only hope is that they will maintain the integrity of the course.”
Who is going to write FAIL when she’s Amos’s girl now?
Is there any thing that backs up the theory that Amos ghost wrote her story or is heavy-barrelling the cadre to pass her?
Amos is one PC Son of a bitch, but, and is definately oversensitive to the cock-knockers in DC.
It’s not like Santangelo was tearing up the course and was singled out to be dropped, She didnt finish day one. There are probably other FEMALE officers that did better and figiured they had a fair shot.
Your answer.
I saw in the article that she’s being sent to Afghanistan, while she awaits flight training.
That will either permanently cure her of “whining,” or make it that much worse.
Jonn.
My question was about her original article. The link you provided shows that Anus simply read it, read the tea leaves and knew that the feminazis were going to force feed her back into the program. He did a pre-emptive strike by acting first. I guess he figures he can get both her and the press to STFU is she gets another shot. It’s also going to prove that regardless of the number of chances at the course females arent going to make it. Amos, as long as he don’t interfere with the standards, may be doing us a solid.
Hadn’t looked at it that way. I hope you’re right.
It’s my opinion that it’s a bad idea to put her through that course a second time. A failure the first time through is a hard burden to carry, and now that her name is known through an ill-advised opinion piece, it will be worse for her.
She is close to not just failure this time, but ruin; not just failing that course, but losing her career in the Marines as well. I wonder if she realizes why?
If ( when) she drops out this time, she will get to go to her original MOS school.
She will do her time, and get out, probably as a Capt.
She will always be the “cry baby feminist”. Being a Marine Officer is just secondary to want she really craves. Attention.
Which is probably exactly why she is not being allowed to take the course again and being sent overseas. She has too much press baggage.
Not to mention, on first attempt she only made it halfway through the course. Even if she has time to prepare(also would probably do better), she still wouldn’t pass. Honestly, given her small stature; the likelihood of her passing(even if she was a man)would be fairly slim.
If guys can take the training a second time, she should be allowed as well. If they want to be equal that should be equal as well. If she fails a second time, well, she’ll just have to deal with the flack. They shouldn’t lower training standards though.
Up until it didn’t.
Now that all of her whinning and complaining has been captured on the internet forever, should she fianlly make it through her training, will she be able to be an effective troop Leader? All of her exploits will be there to be seen by the troops she will be tasked to lead – and as we all know, without respect a leader is ineffective. My guess is that if she does make it through training, she’ll be snatched up and spend the rest of her time in admin as a poster-child for “successful intergation of female warriors into a male dominated culture”.
If you want to pass a school, you train for it. You push yourself as far as you need to be ready. The army never prepared me for Ranger school, they gave me the tools to get myself ready. If your goal is to be the first woman through IOBC or what ever the Marines school is, then don’t show up unprepared
No surprise here.
Well, at least she LOOKS like a Marine Infantryman. Key word in that being MAN.
She makes one valid point. Physical standards should NOT be gender normed. Now, that has about as much chance of happening as a snowball in hell.
The whiney parts come when she complains she wasn’t “Prepped for the course”.
I took the Air Assault test way back in the 80’s to try to qualify for the few slots open to us. I failed (running was never my strong suit, and I know it’s not a “run”, but try to make it in time not running 🙂 ).
The point is I knew what the standard was, and I didn’t make it. Nobody prepped me, although I did train with others. It was mine to pass or fail. Just like it was hers.
To say that my fun meter with 2ndLt. Santangelo is about pegged out would be a bit of an understatement.
She has taken every stereotype about women in the infantry and multiplied them to the nth degree. Physically unprepared, mentally unprepared (blaming the system for her failure) and ready to use the help of men to get her way. She is a true shining beacon for future women warriors to hitch their wagons to.
And General Amos has been a disaster for the Marine Corps. A goddamn politician when we need a leader. I hope you were joking when you said he helped with her op-ed Jonn. If not, he needs to resign NOW! His judgment has to be called into question if this is the woman he is going to use to jump start females passing IOC.
The Marine Corps has 99 problems, and this woman passing IOC aint one. If Amos is going to burn up good will and the morale of the Corps backing this failure, he just fucking needs to go.
MGySgtRet…I was not a Marine. I read this article and tried to think of something salient to write. But you have said it better. She says she was unprepared? How many Officers in the Marines know EXACTLY what the Marine Corps’ Infantry Officer Course will entail? I would venture 100% have a very good if not exacting knowledge of what to expect. It is a simple fact that though segregated with women who do say, 15 push ups, she could have chosen to push herself for 30 or 50. Knowing what was ahead for her. SHE CHOSE the easier route, expecting easier treatment. She failed along with several men as well. If men are allowed a second chance then she should be as well. My money is on, and I’m giving two to one odds…she fails again. I believe she thinks she has Amos and the top Marine brass behind her now to ensure her passing this time. I hope that will not be the case and she will be held to the same standards as her first time through.
Master Gunny: Well said on all points.
Amos is a politically appointed show horse leading hard working, competent war horses.
The Marine Corps needs a real Commandant, not a politically correct, spineless perfumed prince.
“The Marine Corps needs a real Commandant, not a politically correct, spineless perfumed prince.” Agreed, that said, it ain’t gonna happen anytime soon.
Ok, she mentions that the fake physical requirements weren’t as hard, when she joined; why didn’t she take the initiative to go beyond the female requirements on her own? That, alone, could have made the difference on her succeeding.
THAT is the million dollar question Old Trooper.
Good point.
*female* not fake. Damn autocorrect.
Right the first time OT
Its been said ad nauseam here and other places where veterans congregate. They won’t be allowed to fail. This proves it. A movement is in place that wants to see this happen and doesn’t care about the consequences. Santangelo is just a new Kathleen Wilder. I would expect this “officer” to be just as litigious as Wilder if she didn’t have the ear of General Anus
As a current Army infantry company commander I read things like this and I get irritated at the higher HQ ‘tampering’ that is apparent in pushing what is nothing more than a political agenda. However, knowing how the Army has worked my entire career, at the unit level this problem isn’t really different than getting issued a fat soldier or someone with a drug addiction. I thank God every day that I have 238 soldiers, and not a single one of them is a female. That being said, were I ‘issued’ a female officer or soldier in the 11 series MOS I as a commander would hold them to the same UCMJ standards as everyone else. What people seem to forget is that people like Amos, Odierno, and others can lower entry standards all they want, but I can initiate a Chapter packet on a woman for failure to adapt, failure to complete basic MOS tasks (12 mi ruck, qualification, etc.), and a whole litany of other things. While I think the entire mess is just a social experiment with no positive end, I also won’t get my blood in a boil, since the force will always self correct at the lowest command level (until they take that away from us, but it hasn’t happened so far). Be interested to hear other thoughts on the matter.
That’s a nice thought, until you get sued by a female recruit you chapter for failure to adapt and she is able to convince everyone that it wasn’t that she couldn’t meet the standards, but it was because she had different genitals. And just wait until a few dozen or so females are chaptered out when they cant hack at their first duty station. You will have Gillibrant and the like coming after you to take that power out of the hands of commanders. Also you wouldn’t be issued one female. They’ve said many times they would need other females in order for them to be successful. If what Santangelo is saying is that everyone should be held to the same physical standards then here’s your no shit moment Lt. But underneath she wants the male standard lowered. Which is inevitably what will happen. We’ve seen it play out in real time just recently. Remember all females Marines must do pull-ups by the beginning of 2014? How’d that work out General Anus?
It has already happened…years ago when they let women go to airborne school. Lowered the standards so women will graduate…then the lower standards moved into the male arena… 6 minimum pullups no more. It is now a joke of a school akin to a three week confidence course. Everyone can make it…just don’t quit. Not quite the elite they claim.
To be fair, how hard is it really to fall out of an aircraft? I say fall because when your ruck is pushing 80+ lbs and hanging from your waist added to 50+ lbs of T-11 and you’re standing upright for 10 minutes you’re not doing much “jumping” when you do finally exit.
The real test will come when your BN/BDE commander actually signs that chapter paperwork, or give a BCOM for a female officer that can’t meet the 12 mile ruck standard.
The good news in this is that BN/BDE commanders might have to be much more quantifiable in terms of actual jobs performance when it comes to OER blocking than previously.
ArmyJ, I say good luck to you. You are correct in that taking care of business at the lowest level is the way to go. Always has been. But political expedience is going to trump doing the right thing and that is going to happen very soon. All will be well until you get a battalion commander who will not back your play.
So in one breath, she was unprepared. In the next breath, the Corps failed her. Which one is it?
Corps failed to prepare her; so it’s their fault, not hers.
That’s sarcasm, btw.
If she is allowed to pass the IOC, and given a platoon, I would hate to be in it. Might as well take last rites, write out your will and kiss your loved ones goodbye.
Gender norming…is a BITCH. Pun intended.
Or better said, Gender Norming is a “Broad Coalition”. 😀
That is one super entitled butter bar right there.
I guess her OCS training failed her.
“[W]hen she joined the Marines, Santangelo found the playing field changed; she was segregated into female-only training units and as a woman, was relegated to less strenuous physical training than her male counterparts.”
When I went through NACCS back in the mid ’80s, I had just come off a ten month stint at sea where I smoked, drank, and ate “autodog.” In other words, I was in piss poor shape. I realized that if I wanted “wings of gold” I would have to work harder than the average bear. I never took one day off while I huffed and puffed my way through the school. I ate and slept PT. It sucked, but I made it. So, LT, your excuse about being “segregated” is bullshit. You should have hooked up with some fellow male Marines and PT’d away.
On another note, I went back to P-cola about 6 years later to attend LDO Indoc (aka “Knife and Fork School”). We all expected to be PT’d to death. Heck, we had a CWO in my class who had been a SEAL and EOD and who was a PT monster. For the first few sessions, they literally had us WALK in circles around the gym. No running, no calisthenics. Nothing.
We finally decided to corner the “stash Ensign” who was our PT “instructor” to find out what the deal was. “They told us to go easy on you. One of you might have a heart attack.” Ah, yes! Isn’t getting “old” (I was 31!) fun?
Before BCT, I was a floor-trainer with a gym. That consisted of me working out for ten hours a day with the occasional break to help someone on a piece of equipment or eat.
In BCT and AIT, I actually lost muscle mass. There were no resistance exercises or weight machines, only calisthenics and cardio.
When I got back to my unit, it was the same stuff but only one day a month. Saturday morning during drill was PT. Active duty units are not really that different, but there is typically 5 days a week of PT (heard from friends, no actual experience).
Most of my friends hit the gym on post at least three days a week. Those who didn’t, found themselves struggling to pass various skills assessments. Sure, doing lots of push-ups, sit-ups, and running help of the APFT, but it does nothing for other areas that you might need during combat.
This Marine is no different. She knew that there would be higher standards than what she would normally do in her initial officer training. Rather than take the initiative (as a good officer should) and prepare for those higher standards, she believed that she could coast through without changing the previous standard she was held to. That’s not the way it happens in the real world.
Marine up, suck it up, work it up, and drive on. What ever happened to adapt and overcome…
Obviously it’s harder to become a Marine Officer than it is to become a SEAL instead. Demi Moore was one….whodathunkit?
Ok, so let me wrap my head around this…
“Some” women want an “opportunity” to serve in the infantry, no lowering of standards…
It’s the Military’s fault that some LTs fail the course…
If the men are eligible to be recycled, then women should be allowed too…
I don’t want to start the “women in combat arms debate” here… oh, what the heck, one more comment:
When the social scientists finally get their way and authorize females into combat arms, and we’ve been downsized to the point that we need a draft, will women be:
1) Required to register for the draft?
2) Forced into combat arms MOSs?
3) Required to meet the same standards?
Just some things to consider…
Old1SG, if women are NOT required to answer the draft, it will piss me off a lot.
My son-in-law just returned from AIT. A few weeks in, he broke his ankle in 3 places. They wanted to send him home in a cast, then go back and start over. He convinced the doc to give him a split that fit in his boot and finished with his class, including passing his PT test with a higher score than BCT, and a 5 mile ruck march.
If you really want it, you will find a way.
BTW, couldn’t ask for a better man for my daughter!
That story sounds a little fishy. Navy doctors are not just going let somebody possibly cripple themselves for AIT, and no CO is going to have that on his record.
Bullshit.
Uhm…Common Sense…I’ve seen a lot of broken foot splints. Never saw one that would fit inside a boot and enable a person to march, let alone, run and do PT. But that’s just me and my experience. Not in a 3 broken bone ankle injury anyway. Just saying.
Jim, actually Lt. Sage is not taking the course again. The next set of women who volunteer for the course will have that opportunity.
Technically, some of the women already had a second opportunity if they were going into intelligence fields(which I believe had recently been opened to women..not sure about that one)
I also find her statement in the interview problematic “I think we can adapt our training(to increase women’s natural physical disadvantage)”
The thing is the training when building muscle is going to be exactly the same when working with either men or women. The difference is going to be output.
We’ve had several long discussions about WICs, in which all the ‘nads and hormone things were high on the list of reasons to not put put women in combat.
My only two cents is that if it is seen by women solely as a chance to get ahead, then they don’t belong in it. Period.
If they go into it because they truly want to and understand the very real dangers they will face, then fine.
Infantry combat requires a certain bastardly emotional toughness that is not common in women, unless they are as bitchy and obnoxious as possible, like me. It requires a willingness to kill rather than nurture. In combat, you have to do whatever is necessary to survive and defeat your opponent. I don’t think most of the women who will opt for it actually understand what they will face.
It’s not that I see WICs as a bad thing. It’s the politics involved in it now that I detest. There probably are women who will do well at it, but they won’t be the whiny ones who write op-ed pieces, and if they do succeed, we likely won’t hear about them very much.
That’s just my opinion.
Here is my issue. In a general sense, I don’t have much of an issue with MIC from an equal opportunity stand point. A woman doesn’t want to discriminated against strictly based on her sex? Fine. Its the social engineering aspect that makes this whole thing not worth it. Plus, the narrative dishonesty. For example, in SOI 53 women have passed this course. But the number who attempted it(which is barely being reported)? 173. Thats Navy SEAL level of attrition for course that typically only fails about 1-2% of the men. Plus, the women who are graduating from SOI are averaging a PFT of about 170-175(versus the 240-250 for the men). That means even with 3 months of basic infantry training, the women still aren’t achieving parity with the men physically. That means that when a woman gets to the fleet. She is automatically going to be assigned to a remedial PT unit. She is already behind when she gets to the unit. She is going to be expected to get at least a second class PFT. Once she gets to her platoon? She is going to be encouraged to have a first class PFT. If she doesn’t, she won’t be competing much for rank or leadership positions. So, of those 53 that graduated SOI. Maybe a small handful can get up to standards of the fleet? Whats their longevity going to be? What is their body going to look like within a year after being in an infantry job? My guess is that within a year you may get only 1 or 2 who are still on the job. Look, everything I said is not to say that women shouldn’t be given the chance. My point is there needs to be a reasonable set of expectations to the outcome. The woman who is going to be able to do this is going to be extremely rare. Everything I posted above will be deemed unacceptable(given the horrible numbers) to those that are pushing this When that happens they are slowly going to lower the standards for everybody. Is that the… Read more »
Flindip,
In addition to what you said, those 173 Marines were all volunteers who scored among the top in the women’s PFT.
If the TOP of the heap is having a 70% attrition rate whats going to happen if they start simply assigning WMs to Infantry based on needs of the Marine Corps just like they do males.
175 PFT? They would get trashed within two weeks.
What you state is (1-2) in a year, is actually pretty close to what the Canadians experienced when they opened up all jobs to women 20+ years ago. There was a big rush to be the first, etc, but the reality is that interest and ability wanes pretty quickly.
To be an effective leader you don’t have to be the fastest or strongest but there is one absolute trait that you must possess…you cannot be a QUITTER!
Programs such as this should be based on qualifications. Standards should never be adjusted based on gender or any other reason. I say this as a women with almost 30 years in the military. If we adjust these standards it may cost someone their life. She took the course and failed, thats it, shows over boys and girls.
I saw her picture and literally thought “Whiskey Tango Foxtrot she wants now?” … 😛
Here’s the issue as I see it and it ALL comes down to this one salient point.
Gender Norming…is a “Broad Coalition”.
Let’s keep trying to fit that square peg in a round hole. Mallets (aka social engineering) helps.
The “Big Lie” is given life again.
LT Sage Santangelo claims that her failing was due to the fact that segregated into female-only training units and as a woman, was relegated to less strenuous physical training than her male counterparts. BS as a leader she should have done more that meet the minimum standards of the females. Her failure was due to her not being prepared. Bottom Line. She appears to be of the class of soldiers that use to report to me for there PT test. They would look up me and ask what is the minimum I have to do. Lo be to their souls. I would never give them a break on questionable reps because they were only riding the charts. She should have put in 110% from the start and not whine about her failure and blame it on segregation.
Her failure is a result of her character. Plain and simple. She cannot be fixed no matter how low the standards are set.
I have personally and directly felt the pain of her failure.
I’ll leave it at that.
Glad I’m Army. We’ve been co-ed a long time. But here’s the deal. Tradoc and Cadet Command were/are full of doctrinal clowns. The line is where things are figured out. The best female drills and NCO’s I’ve reported to have all been top tier for female standards and top tier for male standards. In fact I was being reviewed for my E5 board and got bumped off the list, simply because my PSG (a female who did way better at everything than I had) said she expected better. Then she retrained me until I did. Funny thing is, she thinks this LT should be chaptered out for failure to meet procurement standards. I try to keep an open mind, but I can’t do justice to the females I’ve worked with and for, who could whoop her ass, and abhor the idea of special treatment.