You are Breanna Manning, not me
More low information BS from Hollywood;
For one thing, you cretins, Manning told his company commander that he’d prefer that everyone call him Breanna, and people on this blog seem to be the only folks in the world willing to fulfill that wish. For another thing, there’s a difference between “whistleblowing” and “treason”. SEALs who raided the bin Laden compound testified that Manning’s “whistleblowing” product turned up in that compound, so obviously it was of interest to the enemy, if we’re still calling bin Laden an enemy, that is. That product is still considered classified by the government.
If you all want to be Breanna Manning, then you can stand up with him for the firing squad, which would take more courage than you can muster, I’m sure. If you’re saying that you would turn on this country and endanger the people who are fighting for you, that’s where you belong anyway.
Category: Terror War
I think I may agree with you on that more than you think, Veritas. With the Manning issue, I stand somewhere in the middle. I don’t believe he deserves life in prison, and I certainly don’t believe he deserves death. But I’m also not running to Maryland to participate in the protests. I agree that if he felt there was something that warranted being released, he could have and should have released just 1 or 2 incident reports, rather than releasing thousands of documents. I do question his motives behind doing this. But I’m not foaming at the mouth to get at him and throw him in prison for the rest of his life. Hopefully that makes my position on the Manning thing just a little more clear.
And I don’t call myself an IVAW refugee, Jonn! While I have never formally resigned, I am no longer active with them. There was one particular incident that really got to me, as it proved to me that the organization as a whole doesn’t seem to be concerned with helping veterans as much as they say they are. But I still consider many of them to be decent people who I respect and still consider to be friends.
@99: You’d get more time in the slammer for bank robbery than murder. Just sayin’.
@101: He shouldn’t release ANY reports, period! It’s not his job. There are procedures in place. And, the decision to release anything is waaaaay above his paygrade. He screwed the pooch, along with many of our assets and troops, who paid for his arrogance. You, as a Vet, should understand this and not defend the little bastard or his motives. I want him to get life in front of a firing squad.
I’m not saying it makes him any less guilty. I’m saying that his argument is that he felt he HAD to release the documents because he felt he had a moral obligation to do so. While I do question his motive for releasing the documents, I also know that I have questions about how this government has handled Iraq and Afghanistan so I don’t find his argument completely out of the question. I 100% support my fellow soldiers and I truly hope that nothing he released put them in danger because it does break my heart every time I hear of another soldier dying. But I don’t believe he deserves life in prison and I certainly don’t believe he deserves the death penalty. He already admitted he was guilty of releasing classified documents so I feel he should go to prison for that. But I’m questionable on the aiding and abetting charges.
If the release of the documents caused the deaths of US or allied troops in wartime, isn’t that a) treason and b) defined as a capital offense? Not lawyer, but thought it was. The whole debate seems to be predicated on whether someone agrees with his actions… but should be based on
a) what is the law of the land and b) did he break it. You don’t like the law, try to change it. Doesn’t excuse the breaking of an existing law in the interim. (Ask the old potsmokers how many of their convictions were set aside when some of the states legalized forms of marijuana.)
@37 I agree with the point. The trouble I see is that the country as a whole, not to mention the government which has been there for years, is becoming a more and more left leaning, milk toast society. They do not understand the military, confidentiality or secrecy for necessary security reasons. They equate stealing classified info with a person stealing bread to feed there family. manning is a traitor and hopefully will be tried and sentenced for treason. Not a military person here who had any kind of clearance misunderstands the documents of confidentiality they signed, neither did Manning. He CHOSE to commit treason and should suffer accordingly. Haven’t said anything poignant or new here, I am just pissed and fed up with the whole affair.
There’s an old story about a French soldier who is to be executed. His mother, hearing of her son’s plight, visits Napoleon to ask him to spare her son’s life. Napoleon tells her that justice must be served. She responds, “I am not here to argue for justice. Justice would be served by my son’s execution. I am here to beg for mercy.”
That woman knew infinitely more than the Manning supporters, who do not distinguish between justice and mercy. Instead, they confuse the two, attempting to argue that what Manning did was just and that, accordingly, he should be excused. One of their league, Anonymous of Jax, is trying very hard to sidestep the core issue with a red herring, asking whether the government is to be trusted. That question is unworthy of response in this context because it plays the hand the Manning apologists have dealt. Screw that.
he felt he HAD to release the documents because he felt he had a moral obligation to do so
Horse-fuckin-SHIT. There were literally hundreds of thousands of documents, and there was no way he could have even gone through a small fraction of them to determine which were actionable and which weren’t.
This was a plain “I’m butthurt so I’m gonna lash out” data dump.
@104: What has been released, in regards to the raid and subsequent room temp of Bin Laden, showed that some of the stuff Manning released did, in fact, make it to our enemies. That, alone, earns him a dirt nap in my book.
Jax! One more time on the moral equivalence thing.
For the most part, I agree that there is a huge difference between a parent stealing bread to feed a hungry child and some clown stealing a candy bar just because he wants it. The facts of guilt or innocence, however, do not make that distinction which is one reason the “rule of law” is so basic to our country. In both of those theft cases, there is a direct link between the illegal action and the cause for doing it. (One is more forgivable than the other, and that could correctly be considered at sentencing.)
What Beanna did had no relationship at all with the reason he has given for committing the crime. No relationship exists between the alleged “war crimes” and the release of classified information unrelated to them.
Therefore, there is no equivalence of any kind between Breanna’s crimes and those of thieves stealing food to feed their children other than that they are both crimes.
Breanna can, and should, be charged with a crime for each and every piece of classified material that he touched or observed which he was not authorized to touch or observe. But he did much more than simply access and look at things which he was not authorized to possess. He actually passed that classified material to others also not authorized to touch or observe it. That is HUGE!
In all of that, it matters not if he is young or old, is in the Army vs the Navy, has identity questions or not, is redheaded or blonde, chews gum or not, is enlisted or an officer, or any other factor. I don’t care! He is either guilty of committing crimes against all of us or he is not.
Ethical behavior should not be dependent upon who you are or think you are. Releasing classified information to anyone not authorized to have it is illegal, immoral, unethical, dishonorable, and a few dozen other negative terms no matter who does it.
No 2/17, what I am saying is that Manning’s motive was supposedly his moral conscience. I haven’t seen the extent of everything that was released, but, given how the government has handled Iraq and Afghanistan, I don’t find his argument completely out of the question. I think it’s possible that some of what he saw bothered him. However, yes I do have my doubts as to what his motive was at the time he did this. But I don’t know what was going through his mind, I’m not a mind reader. I’m not trying to excuse what he did. I’m just not frothing at the mouth to get him in front of a firing squad. I know you guys won’t agree, but my opinion is this has been blown out of proportion.
@106 Sparks, with 99.3% of the population not in the military it’s not really surprising that people don’t understand the military at all…with budget cuts coming and the following reduction in force there will be even less people involved with or knowing anything about the military.
Since most folks aren’t in the military, don’t know anybody in the military, and don’t much care what happens to those who are the military will continue to get reduced budgets and reduced benefits because the military no longer has a supporting legislative body veterans should get used to the idea that the public will stick it up their 4ss every chance they get….
He broke his oath, he put his brothers and sisters in arms in harms way, he did not do this from some moral obligation. He did this to punish those he thought were persecuiting him for being Brianna, or not accepting him as he thought he should be accepted. He posted information on youtube in AIT, he punched a female soldier in a disagreement, he dumped thousands of files to a known hacker to be broadcast to any of our enemies that wanted to download and view them. A hacker turned him in because he thought that what was being put out would get people killed. I do not want him breathing the same air as myself and every other veteran and soldier who kept our oaths.
He is the poster child for the self entitled generation that is filling the ranks now, and these celebrities who are saying they are Manning should be punched in the mouth with a brick for thinking that their opinion is somehow more valid because they are famous. I am not that fucking douchenugget, I am a proud veteran of the US Army 1st Infantry Division who kept my honor intact, not some childish bitch that felt that he had to punish others for a percieved slight.
Fuck him and set him on fire far as I am concerned.
@104, his actions led directly to the death of many Afghan (and other) US Sources. Doesn’t that make him an accessory to murder? He could not have known that the information he released (70,000+ documents?) was safe to release (without endangering others) and pertinent to any alleged injustice by the US Government. From what I saw of the documents, he took no actions to sanitize them or make them safe. So, he signed a lot of people’s death warrants, willingly and knowingly. He deserves what he gets in my book.
One example in the linked article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2145218/WikiLeaks-cable-led-Iran-hang-kick-boxer-said-Israeli-spy-assassinated-nuclear-scientist.html
@111 Where was Manning’s “moral conscience” when he blatantly disobeyed standing orders regarding classified information? You cannot serve in combat and not see things that may give you pause. It was true when I was in Vietnam and I know it is true for those who have and are serving in Iraq, Afghanistan. Were the sights sometimes bad, yes. As I said you cannot participate in a combat scenario and not see things that are offensive to the senses. But…there is a Chain Of Command for those who feel their conscience pricked. Manning chose to disregard every avenue available to him, and there are many, and take it upon himself to “clear his conscience” through an illegal act of treason. It is no more complicated than that. I am not as eloquent as you and most of the folks who post here. But Manning was wrong, illegal and acted as a traitor to the nation he swore allegiance to.
Okay well with that, I will just leave it be because it’s obvious we won’t agree. I agree that what he did was wrong, he could have gone about it in a better way if he was insistent on having the documents be made public. I just don’t feel his actions are worthy of the death penalty. But then again, I’m conflicted on the death penalty in general.
In response to Veritas saying that 99% of the population are not in the military, I feel compelled to point out that I have served in the military and despite the fact that I’m against war and am a little left-leaning in my politics, I did honor my commitment by deploying to Iraq after I had ETS’ed (unlike other anti-war activists). Not sure exactly why I feel compelled to share that with you guys….I guess it’s because I want to point out that I am not totally clueless about military matters.
Anonymous in Jax: Manning isn’t facing the death penalty. IMO he deserves it if found guilty, but the Army took it “off the table” some months ago. I understand fully that stealing a loaf of bread is not always necessarily the greater evil. Sometime it’s the lesser of two evils – as was the case in Les Miserables. But that does not alter the fact that it was still a morally incorrect act – even if it was understandable and preferable to the alternative. In the real world, you only rarely get a choice between clearly wrong and absolutely perfect. Rather, it’s often a choice between one bad option and one which is worse. Since you appear to have missed the point of my comment 38 above, I’ll spell it out for you. Manning was in no position to determine whether releasing anything he saw was a greater or lesser evil than protecting it in secrecy. He had neither sufficient relevant facts, appropriate background, nor the requisite experience to make that call. He acted without considering the ramifications of his actions. And as others have observed, the sheer volume of material he released in violation of his sworn oath not to do so (up to 700,000 documents by one account, and a minimum of 250,000) makes it obvious to anyone that he made no serious attempt to determine whether or not the documents he released truly were something that he was “morally obligated” to disclose. He simply opted to release them all out of spite, and/or to gain his Warhol-esque 15 minutes of fame. You seem to espouse moral relativism, so pray answer this: how do you react to the guy who commits murder because he feels he had no other choice? The guy who killed the Kansas abortionist in church because he had no way to “prevent more innocent deaths”, for example? Would you defend Hassan – who claims he acted “in the defense of others” at Fort Hood? How does either of those cases differ essentially from the conduct for which you apparently want to at least partially… Read more »
Here’s a reminder regarding Manning’s situation. He has already pleaded GUILTY to 10 charges and the plea was accepted by the judge. This was NOT a plea bargain and he will be sentenced on those 10 charges at the concluison of his trial on the remaining 12 charges. The 10 were lesser charges for which he will likely receive 20 years. (Hey, that’s a start.) Now, here’s something else that many folks are overlooking. The video that is the lynchpin of this traitor’s sympathetic construct came into his hands AFTER he illegally acquired and illegally transferred classified info to Assange and Company. Five will get you ten that his apologists don’t know that or, if they do, they don’t care. He’s such a perfect martyr for their cause: sensitive, confused, well intentioned, and (best of all) queer as a $3 dollar bill.
I am extremely proud to say I am not Breanna/Bradley Manning, I’m also proud no one I know is Breanna/Bradley Manning nor is anything that resembles B/B Manning.
It’s treason and most foul, time for a Danny Deever in the Morning.
Rope, Traitor, Gallows assembly required and requested, please.
I mean, “Damn!” ASAP like yesterday.
No, I do not excuse nor support what Hasan did or anyone who kills abortion workers. They are murdering people and in my opinion, it’s not to be considered self defense. I’m not suggesting that what Manning did was right. I’m just saying I don’t feel it is worthy of the death penalty. I’m not even sure it’s worthy of life in prison. He is already admitting guilt to releasing the documents and I think he should be charged with that and it should just be left alone. I think that it is being blown out of proportion and although it doesn’t excuse his actions, the government is partially to blame for this because there were clear signs that Manning should not have continued access to classified documents.
I am aware that he has admitted guilt to some of the charges and will be sentenced to those at the conclusion of his trial. He’s still fighting some of the charges, to include aiding the enemy, if I’m not mistaken. To be honest, I’m reasonably certain that he will be found guilty of it all so all this discussion is probably a moot point anyways. I just hope they don’t decide to put him to death.
Hey Anon. You are aware that Manning claimed to have committed these crimes to promote a national discussion, right? And now you want to belittle your champion’s heroic act by saying that this is blown out of proportion and people should just let it go? He would be so disappointed. This is what he wanted. I’m guessing he didn’t have TAH in mind but, what the heck, the nation is a tad busy right.
Anonymous in Jax: again – how does Hassan’s or the Kansas murderer’s conduct differ essentially from Manning’s? After all, Manning negligently fingered 100+ Afghan informants, some of whom were later “disappeared” by the Taliban. As an intel analyst, he knew full well about the vulnerability of some human sources if/when identified. Why do you absolve Manning for the guilt of their eminently-predictable deaths, but hold Hassan and other murderers accountable for directly committing murder?
Oh, and I love your “blame the victim” defense of Manning above. The Government was also a victim here, remember?
Yes, the government made an obvious and regrettable error in trusting Manning. However, Manning took gross advantage of that error and abused the trust – not the other way around. Are you really going to defend Manning by saying, essentially, the government is to blame because “they were asking for it”?
How many times do I have to say that I agree that Manning shouldn’t have released all the documents in the manner that he did? I’m assuming you can read English. So stop telling me that I am defending Manning because I’m not. I’m saying he shouldn’t get the death penalty.
Hasan’s actions are clearly different because, rather than just releasing some documents for public viewing, Hasan went into a building and shot and killed some of his fellow soldiers, and is now claiming it was in defense of “the leadership of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, the Taliban, and its leader Mullah Omar.” He is flat out admitting he picked up arms and used them against his fellow soldiers to benefit “our enemies.” That’s not at all what Manning did or why he did it.
Manning didn’t do anything “in defense of the enemy.” And he didn’t pick up a weapon and shoot anyone. Let’s assume for a moment that Manning ends up being found not guilty of the charges he is fighting and he ends up serving ~20 years for the charges he is copping to. Do you think that when he gets out of federal prison his life will just pick up where it left off? His life is ruined. From here on out, he would be hard-pressed to find a job, the government will most likely monitor his every move if he were ever released, and his safety will probably be in jeopardy as well. On this blog alone, I’m willing to bet there are quite a few of you who would beat the crap out of him if you ever recognized him on the street. So let’s not pretend that he isn’t going to pay the consequences for what he did.
He leaked info that put soldiers in harms way, any intel no matter how insignfigant we might think it is can be used by a cunning and intelligent enemy to put troops in bodybags.
To me that is aiding the enemy, that is betraying everything and everyone that you swore to defend. That is worthy of the harshest of punishments in my book.
Now, Jax, there is something upon which we might almost agree, or completely agree, or maybe not. (If you had answered a few of my questions above, we might know for sure, but since you didn’t we will never know.)
The folks who failed to pull his clearance should face some sort of serious discipline as well. Problem here is if Breanna is not responsible for the folks who died as a result of his releasing classified information, then the idiots who allowed him continued access to classified information are also not culpable.
So, if you want to cut some slack to Breanna, Jax, you are removing potential criminal responsibility from those in the Army (or the government, if you prefer) who allowed him access to the information he released. Right?
@125: I’m not a proponent of the death penalty, but in a few cases it’s warranted. This is one of them. It’s a shame the government took that off the table. Of course, it’s no different than the Walker family spy ring where dad and son got extended sentences and not death.
Personally, Manning deserves to eat lead, but since that’s not an option; life making gravel works for me. Hard labor until he dies of old age. Every day, all day, sun, rain, sleet, snow. Every motherfucking day.
@126. “The folks who failed to pull his clearance should face some sort of serious discipline as well.” Yeah, like no one felt that any action taken against this gender-confused specimen of gayhood would not result in pain for those who took action? Sorry. I can’t help but think that way, in light of the Nidal Hasan crap.
OWB, I’m sorry that I did’n’t answer your questions, but there have been A LOT of posts on this thread. But I went back to try to find these questions so I could actually respond to them, and all I could find was 1 question you asked back in #57. That was yesterday. Was this the question you were referring to? Let’s assume someone legitimately saw a war crime, but was bound by their duty to keep classified information a secret? I don’t believe they should just turn their back and keep it a secret. And, even as soldiers, we do have a duty to report crimes. Does that answer your question at all?
Also, I’m not suggesting we cut Manning slack. He’s already guaranteed to spend at least 20 years in prison. Even if he were to be released from prison tomorrow and not spend another day in jail, his life is ruined at this point. He’ll be paying for this for the rest of his life, one way or the other. Even if what he did was the action of a young, immature person who made an incredibly stupid decision, I don’t believe he’s unredeemable. We all grow and mature as we age. How does condemning him to death solve anything?
@ #128: Understood, most definitely. The final lynchpin in my decision to retire precisely when I did was a command failure to take appropriate action in a disciplinary case. And that one didn’t even involve any “special” circumstances!
Anonymous in Jax: you keep going on and on with that “Manning doesn’t deserve the death penalty” spiel. That’s true – and irrelevant. How many times do I (and others) have to tell you that the Army took the death penalty for Manning off the table long ago? That was made very public at the time. In fact, it was not only mentioned in an article here at TAH:
http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=28603
That fact also was publicized by other media outlets over 2 years ago:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/03/bradley-manning-more-charge/
And as for that “he didn’t pick up a weapon” argument: also true – and also irrelevant. The Walkers, Whitworth, Pollard, the Rosenbergs, the Cohens, Hiss, Allen Nunn May, David Greenglass, Pelton, Hansen and a shitload of others didn’t use weapons in committing their acts of treachery, either. They merely aided enemies of the US – just like Manning did.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought that the death penalty was taken off the table in exchange for him pleading guilty to some of the charges. As it stands, part of the reason I keep saying he doesn’t deserve the death penalty is because everyone on here keeps saying they’d love to see him put to death, and they’d even be willing to pull the trigger themselves if given the chance. I’m not even certain he deserves life in prison. I know that is an opinion that won’t make me popular with everyone on here, but I think 20 years in federal prison is plenty of time for him to think about what he did. And, as I stated before, I don’t believe he would have an easy life upon his release. But maybe he would be wiser and more mature. Either way, his life is ruined….whether he spends 20 years in prison or the remainder of it.
Anonymous in Jax: the Army announced it would not seek the death penalty for Manning over 2 years ago – in either late Feb or Mar 2011. See 2d link in comment 132 for details. That’s way before Manning pleaded to squat.
If you’re arguing the matter theoretically vice literally – fair enough. In theory, I think he deserves to hang (I’d also settle for the chair). The firing squad is IMO too dignified a death for a turncoat, and I don’t think he deserves a cold, clinical demise of either the chamber or the needle. He sold out his own country via aiding our enemies, and almost certainly got friendlies killed as a result.
But I can live with Manning getting one day per classified item he disclosed without authority – served consecutively, of course. 250,000 or so days is probably long enough for him to see the error of his ways.
Hondo, I think he qualifies for a bulk discount. let’s say 1 day for every 10 files… 22,500 days. It’s a hell of a deal.
@133 Jax:
Call me a cynic, but the fact that Manning’s life has already been ruined forever is not a given. Sometimes the rule of law can take a backseat to a political agenda. Personally, I would not want to see Manning sentenced to 20 years, then walk in six months with a presidential pardon, a lucrative book contract, and fat fees for a speaking tour all based on the false narrative that he is some sort of martyr.
Something else that might be pointed out is that whether or not you agree with the fact that Manning has the blood of 100 Afghan informants on his hands, it’s pretty much undeniable that he caused harm to the human intelligence side of information gathering. Who would want to provide confidential information if it can’t be kept confidential? The arguable effect of such a lack of confidence is to add even more hazard to an already hazardous mission.
An additional strange element, in the form of a double standard, going on here has to do with the press. Most ethical journalists, at least among those still around, were taught that you never ever reveal a confidential source. There have been plenty of reporters who have gone to jail for contempt because of that. Why then, now, has the media developed some sort of myopia by not recognizing that they would likely not have done what Manning chose to do?
People who are real whistle blowers need to be protected. Manning isn’t one of them.
Kinda Old ET1: no dice. Can’t in good conscience condone anything lower than 1 day per five. One per 10 is too lenient.
Yeah, I know that works out to over 120 years. Fine.
After selling out the US, his comrades-in-arms, and frendlies, IMO Manning never deserves to take another breath as a free man/woman/whatever he considers himself now.
@136. Yes, he could be pardoned by obamaman on his way out the door. I think he would be precluded from profiting from his crimes through a book deal or movie rights but I’m not sure what the US Code says about that.